what should a new client look like?

[LadyNico]

Dermott, when I was younger, and somewhat beyond wanting to be a prima ballerina, I wanted to be a lawyer. Later, I wanted to be a psychologist.

Some years later, my gainful employ embraces aspects of both those latter dreams. Similarly, it could very well be Andrea/Saph might have wanted to work for EA at one time in her life.

Andrea continues to do great work. Last I heard she remains in her native Finland and happily continues to show her art & photography and doing independent web design as well as graphic design for Nokia.

I recall many of us wishing Andrea/Saph could work for EA, however, that just wasn't the "bitterness" that I most recall from those threads. No, the bitterness I remember was much more along the lines of EA failing to take note of what the majority of folks wanted in their graphics. Deja vous or what...

The question to which I responded was specifically, "What should a new client look like?" I, and many, many others, like just what I showed of Andrea/Saphireena's examples. It's okay if you don't or anyone else doesn't agree. Really.

Someone has already stated as much in this very thread, however, if I wanted something different graphically, something which would require effort on my part to learn how to play a game (let alone one I've been playing for over 9yrs now), I would be inclined to simply go play another online game.

My question, instead, would be what is it that keeps bringing back the folks who move on to other games? As I have. Repeatedly. What is it about UO that makes it "home?" That's the box selling answer, right there.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

My own opinion of her work...

Give us the quality of artwork she had in the items and even the characters, however, I do have to say I prefer the terrain graphics of KR over Legacy and the "updates" in her images.

I think she would have been an awesome item/character designer for the KR/SA client.

 

[Beastmaster]

DevilsOwn, take a look at this one.

youtube link

 

[Lady Michelle]

Its a shame they cant make the landscape look real like when you look out your real life window real looking trees, grass, water, houses etc. I can picture my toon running around my backyard . that is what I want UO to look like the real world with uo artwork added in.

 

[Lily]

Something you should all understand.

Graphics are not what make a game good they are not what make a game fun to play.

For those kids out there born after the 16 bit era you need to go back and play some of the classics. You will probably frown on the current gaming industry afterwords like the rest of us who were there for it all from atari till now...

My all time favorite game is 8 bit and has about 8 frames of animation per character TOTAL!

My #1 example of a game that uses lesser graphics and focuses on game play and detail is always going to be Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. That game was pure genius. Created in a time when all other games being released were trying to push 3D graphics capabilities of the PSX and most game companies were selling games based almost entirely on how good the graphics looked vs how well the game played. Yet Konami took a step back and created a game in the 2D side scroll style with sprite based graphics and it was an F'ing masterpiece. Hell I am playing through it for the billionth time right now actually.

My point is that graphics should not be the main focus when developing games. Sure there is no reason not to have nice graphics in a game in this day and age but you also have to understand that the main focus should be how fun the game actually is to play and how well it functions vs how pretty it looks.

P.S. a small fact. UO 2D is 16bit

First, PLEASE do not stereotype the 2D addict as someone "older". I am at least your age or older considering the benchmarks you mentioned like atari... and I cannot STAND the look of 2D. Everyone that I play with that uses 2D is much younger than me, including teenagers. The people I play with that use KR are all ages including at least two that are the same age as me.

No, graphics should not be the main focus when developing, however... hardware technology has moved way beyond what is necessary for 2D. 2D doesn't take advantage of newer video cards and larger monitors. I cannot play 2D... even if I wanted to... because on my 22" widescreen monitor the game window is too small for my old eyes to see. In KR, I can make the game window the entire size of the screen and zoom in to see things up close. Do you really want a game that constantly dumbs itself down to make sure it works on 15 year old technology? Do you think kids who were practically born using computers and playing console games and have a DS before their 5th birthday are going to even give UO a second look if they do that?? Stop living in the past dude.

Lily

 

[Lily]

My question, instead, would be what is it that keeps bringing back the folks who move on to other games? As I have. Repeatedly. What is it about UO that makes it "home?" That's the box selling answer, right there.

I don't think any of that comes from a picture on a box though. It comes from experiencing the game. You don't come BACK to the game unless you played it to begin with. What you should ask yourself is this... will a potential new player, in 2009, pick up a box with images of the 2D client and want to give it a chance? Or will they put it down looking for a more modern graphical look and interface? Try to drop your opinions about 2D vs KR or 3D or whatever and think in terms of marketing the game. The only way they could really market the 2D visual is as a "retro" game, and they would not be able to put a price point over 9.99 on that box.. and they sure couldn't market it with a monthly fee either.

Lily

 

[LadyNico]

My question, instead, would be what is it that keeps bringing back the folks who move on to other games? As I have. Repeatedly. What is it about UO that makes it "home?" That's the box selling answer, right there.

I don't think any of that comes from a picture on a box though. It comes from experiencing the game. You don't come BACK to the game unless you played it to begin with.

If you read what you just quoted, you'll see that we are fundamentally in agreement. Against my better judgement, I was persuaded to try WoW because "Nico ya just gotta see the graphics!" While few could deny WoW, like DAOC, is a pretty game, to me it lacks depth to the point of being soulless.

What you should ask yourself is this... will a potential new player, in 2009, pick up a box with images of the 2D client and want to give it a chance? Or will they put it down looking for a more modern graphical look and interface?

With the greatest of respect, I really cannot bring myself to give half a hoot for what some nebulous, potential, possible, maybe new player thinks. Killing the enjoyability factor for those who are actively paying the fees right now does not strike me as a particularly wise business move.

Try to drop your opinions about 2D vs KR or 3D or whatever and think in terms of marketing the game. The only way they could really market the 2D visual is as a "retro" game, and they would not be able to put a price point over 9.99 on that box.. and they sure couldn't market it with a monthly fee either. Lily

Lily, there is just no getting around the fact that UO is a retro game. Why not celebrate that fact rather than yet another deeply cringeworthy attempt at being anything else?

 

[Cogniac]

http://www.jeboscreenshots.com/images/screenshots/215020232068neverwinter-nights-2-screenshot-13.jpg

 

[LadyNico]

Mortal Online teaser video:- http://www.mortalonline.com/videos

Game created & developed by old UO players. *smiles* There. Now I have shared my guilty pleasure with you all.

 

[Beastmaster]

Thanks for that reminder Cogniac. Yes I have NWN and played it quite a bit. I had forgotten how it looked. I think I could be satisfied with something of that quality. I'll have to dig mine out and give it a fresh whirl and see.

 

[Beastmaster]

Those graphics look nice. What took you so long to post that?

 

[Lily]

Lily, there is just no getting around the fact that UO is a retro game. Why not celebrate that fact rather than yet another deeply cringeworthy attempt at being anything else?

HOW do you plan to "celebrate" it's retro-ness? You can't put a $40 price point on a box with 2D client graphics on the back, even if you accidently leave off the $14 monthly fee in addition to the $40. So you can't celebrate it that way...

Another $10 CD in Wal-Mart stores? LOL That worked well. All the current UO players bought multiple copies, not leaving this less expensive version for potential new players to purchase. Not to mention that it being just a jewel case would give it significantly different visibility in a store than it would have were it in a box.

You have to really put aside your personal opinion on the client and think of it from a marketing standpoint. You really do. It's very selfish to want to hug that 2D client tight and not let go. If you want the GAME to continue to attract new players you have to let the client advance. It's time some of you start distinguishing between GAME and CLIENT.

It's okay though... stay calm... there are more people like you than there are like me so what will happen is that the 2D client will stay around and it will REALLY become the retro game that you want. People who enjoy KR will eventually all quit because it never gets updated and events are *optimized for 2D* etc. Nobody will play except a bunch of "do you remember how cool it was before the fel/tram split?" people and the people who farm gold for them. There will never be anyone new to replace those of us who leave for something that ISN'T retro. Hey, maybe they will even make that pre-pub 19 shard too, or whatever it is that those people keep fussing about!

Lily

 

[Connor_Graham]

With the greatest of respect, I really cannot bring myself to give half a hoot for what some nebulous, potential, possible, maybe new player thinks. Killing the enjoyability factor for those who are actively paying the fees right now does not strike me as a particularly wise business move.

If nothing else, without the new generation of nebulous, potential, possible, maybe new players, UO will die of attrition if nothing else. The new generation of gamers demands up to date graphics, and wouldn't look twice at a box with 2D graphics on it. As much as you may not like it, UO NEEDS those players if it's going to continue for the long haul.

 

[Eslake]

Something you should all understand.

Graphics are not what make a game good they are not what make a game fun to play.

If UO were a Text MUD, would you still be playing it?

Someone looking for a game to play cannot tell from the box how fun it might be, other than avoiding genres they don't like (RTS or FPS and so forth) so they must depend on the screenshots to get any indication of the game's nature.
UO has nothing to offer those potential customers as it is now. So while graphics may not be the deciding factor in how Fun a game is (tho they do play a part in that) they do determine whether or not the game can continue.

Even if EA put 50 full-time Seers to work on UO, and 20 dedicated GMs, ran a new event every single week, and finally found the perfect balance for PvP, it would not keep UO alive.
Because no matter how Fun the game might be, over time players will leave, and without new players signing up it decays to the point they can no longer afford to keep it operating.



For those who were wondering about Gamebryo in motion (that Chuck Norris video was pretty clunky) I'll load up Fraps and record something later - after the weekly meet up.

That is,.. if they ever get the login server back up so there can Be a weekly meet up.

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

First, PLEASE do not stereotype the 2D addict as someone "older". I am at least your age or older considering the benchmarks you mentioned like atari... and I cannot STAND the look of 2D. Everyone that I play with that uses 2D is much younger than me, including teenagers. The people I play with that use KR are all ages including at least two that are the same age as me.

No, graphics should not be the main focus when developing, however... hardware technology has moved way beyond what is necessary for 2D. 2D doesn't take advantage of newer video cards and larger monitors. I cannot play 2D... even if I wanted to... because on my 22" widescreen monitor the game window is too small for my old eyes to see. In KR, I can make the game window the entire size of the screen and zoom in to see things up close. Do you really want a game that constantly dumbs itself down to make sure it works on 15 year old technology? Do you think kids who were practically born using computers and playing console games and have a DS before their 5th birthday are going to even give UO a second look if they do that?? Stop living in the past dude.

Lily

You obviously missed every point I tried to make.

That and you are wrong 2D CAN take advantage of new hardware if you have Hi Def graphics 2D or 3D your going to be pushing your hardware the perspective your viewing graphics from does not mean the graphics are easier or harder for your hardware to render.

 

[DevilsOwn]

DevilsOwn, take a look at this one.

youtube link

kay, watched that, and it started okay (the walking bit) but when he started running that's when it began to appear that the character was not 'connected' with the scenery.... I'm probably not explaining this very well

tell ya what I did like about it, tho.... the people he passed turned to look at him... the scenery is very pretty..... those on-the-fly pop-up controls for enviroment are excellent

one observation... I doubt that I would ever be strong enough to swim with a shield equipped

 

[Nystul]

I would actually like to see a more polished 2d. I will dig up some images I have and post them to give a good example of what I mean.

You can actually up the resolution of the current graphics and sharpen them giving them better detail without making the game something completely different. To me this is the ideal client for this particular game.

I could learn a new UI if it were better than the current 2d one should they do the above with 2d.

But change those graphics like they did in KR and give us an awful UI like in KR and I am out.

EDIT: I found them! Some of you may have even seen these before.

To me these images are the ideal upgrade for UO in the graphics department. Some are animated for comparison so be patient let them load up and then watch the difference.

And Last had KR graphics gotten this same theory applied to them this is what we might have seen:

<- Original KR Paperdoll / Redone KR Paperdoll ->

all those are are just resized by what, 200% and cleaned up? Not hard. But then what? Less play view? No thanks.

 

[LadyNico]

Lily, in one hand, offer me the keys to a 2008/9 Ford Humdinger with all the whistles & bells and in the other offer me the keys to the 1964 Ford Mustang, and I'm going to gleefully grab the '64 Mustang from you.

And no, I do not want all the latest whizzy hi-tech gadgets spoiling the feel of my classic 64 Mustang either. If there's a busted spring which pokes my left butt cheek, well, it's character.

Give me a choice between a neatly drawn almost clinical Disney Pixar film dvd and a Bambi/Lady&The Tramp/Aristocats/etc and I'm going to savour the soul and the love injected into each & every single frame of the old hand drawn classics.

You probably like mayonnaise whilst I detest the vile stuff. I'm completely okay with that. Really.

Just like mayo, this client stuff is a taste thing and therefore wholly subjective. You like what you like, and I like what I like. There is no right or wrong.

Of eight accounts, (two of which are polar bear worthy), I am down to three live ones. Because of offline commitments, I've logged in less than a half dozen times over the last three month period. It seems a bit absurd to continue to forking over three monthly subscription fees when I only make the most sparing use of one account.

If EAMythic elects to put whatever meagre funds it has alloted to UO towards possibly, maybe, hopefully, luring new players to the game at the expense of honking off those who've stuck around for a decade or more, there's really not a whole lot I can do about it. Jolly good luck to'em, I say. I will stand down gracefully and remember the good times and good folk I've met in my years in Sosaria.

MortalOnline really does look good, doesn't it? *smiles*

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

all those are are just resized by what, 200% and cleaned up? Not hard. But then what? Less play view? No thanks.

No they are not just resized by 200% they are the same size as everything else in UO they are increased in size in these images but look at the images in my post that are showing actual size and not increased.

This is about resolution. Instead of having an image with a resolution of 72 pixels per inch they have say 300 per inch. Meaning the image may be the same size but there are smaller pixels and more of them allowing for higher detail images of the same size. Big big difference.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Give the original UO client some love. Anyone remember the brilliant Saphireena? Graphics Challenge, ring any bells? *smiles*

Lookie here:- http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/hrc_mare.shtml

and here:- http://www.andrea.net/uo/general/art/hrc_unicorn.shtml

Dammit, I miss you, Saph.

The problem with an "upgrade" to the UO2D client in that manner is that it requires redoing the entire artset in a manner that leaves it as statics.

HOWEVER, given that this appears to be what they did for KR (a tile-by-tile redoing of every item in the game), AND they did it so ****-poor-horribly that it's not even worthy of the words "graphics revamp," I'd prefer to see that over what they've done, that's for damned sure.

But it's not exactly a solution for the future... The 2D client needs to die for UO's future, but they've failed to introduce anything that has a chance to replace it.

 

[Velvathos]

The problem I have is when I scroll way in, it gets annoying, you can't see your surroundings and I can't see anything around me, it doesn't come in handy.. What's the point of this feature? I like to be able to see things up close in UO unlike the 2d client, but this is horrible in KR.. This is why I support a 3d-Client, that looks like something along the lines of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, gameplay and all..

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

The problem with an "upgrade" to the UO2D client in that manner is that it requires redoing the entire artset in a manner that leaves it as statics.

HOWEVER, given that this appears to be what they did for KR (a tile-by-tile redoing of every item in the game), AND they did it so ****-poor-horribly that it's not even worthy of the words "graphics revamp," I'd prefer to see that over what they've done, that's for damned sure.

But it's not exactly a solution for the future... The 2D client needs to die for UO's future, but they've failed to introduce anything that has a chance to replace it.

Yeah you pretty much said it all. They have not shown us anything worthy of replacing the old client. I am not a 3D fan by any means but if 3D is done properly it can be nice and it can be a solution for UOs future. Key words being "Done Properly".

U9 was actually pretty sweet and it was 3D but it still felt like ultima to me. The controls were similar to any other ultima game and the entire game was full 3D if that can be done than a proper remake of UO can be done it just needs done the right way and some real time invested into making it happen.

Not to mention that the 2D client is extremely limited technically and because of that it should be replaced with something capable of more regardless of the graphics used. If you left the graphics alone and just created a more capable client you could do far more with the game.

Both areas need addressed and a proper solution created for the next decade of this game.

 

[Der Rock]

what should a new client look like?

..like a working one!


grafik can be secondarrily
(can remember on poorly grafik games but they made A LOT of fun to play)

 

[Azureal]

The screenshot that someone posted of NWN...with the buildings around the lake (I assume it was NWN) looks so nice...imagine walking into Vesper, or even into Cove and it looking like that.

FWIW, I sometimes used to think SWG (when it first came out) was a lot like what I had hoped UO2 would be like. The same character development (could have multiskills etc), the housing (and decorating!), the crafting and vendor system. It was awesome.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Drawing everything from the same angle would be a nice start. Everything circular in KR is out of whack with the rest of the artwork.

I want clarity, I want to be able to see things without squinting.

I want functionality, I want things to do what they're supposed to do. Target and back packs. To be able to target a bad guy and heal/vet the good guys without it switching on me so I end up trying to heal the bad guys while the good guys die.

I don't want to look at my paper doll and think 'God, you're ugly'

I've got these in 2D. I'm with the 'enhance 2D' camp I think.

 

[Cypher2]

Hi

The complaint with the 2d system is that it limits the ability of the developers to do a lot of things that they/we want to do to make the game better.

New client should look exactly like the 2d client and all applications, such as UOAM and uoassist should work with it. This would make all 2d users extremely happy.

Once the developers have the new client engine powering the 2d system, they can start moving it in any direction they want. Done right, over a period of 12 months, by slowly implementing changes, they could turn the 2d client into the Stygian Abyss client.

 

[Eslake]

The screenshot that someone posted of NWN...with the buildings around the lake (I assume it was NWN) looks so nice...imagine walking into Vesper, or even into Cove and it looking like that.

Funny you mention that.
When I first looked at that screenshot I had to look twice, because it looks almost Exactly like an area in WoW.
That it one of the things that irk me when people say "I don't want to play WoW" because they don't realize that you can zoom out and tilt your view in WoW to look almost exactly like that image, which is darned close to the UO2D perspective.

3D doesn't mean we have to give up the way the game looks, only that it can be much higher quality.

New client should look exactly like the 2d client and all applications, such as UOAM and uoassist should work with it. This would make all 2d users extremely happy.

People at the meeting place on LS kept trying to ask about UOAssist and UOAM working with KR and such, I'm very glad nobody actually took those questions on to ask at the TH, because it would have been a complete waste of our time.
UOAssist is not EA, it belongs to Tugsoft, so only Tugsoft decides if it will ever work for KR. (and I suspect it will eventually)
And to UOAssist, it will never work on a new client because it isn't updated any longer, and it too was owned by someone else.

I do not agree that a new client should look Exactly like 2D. I will agree that it should offer the same perspective view, but if it looks no different it is not going to help get new players, which is the only thing that will keep the game alive.

Once the developers have the new client engine powering the 2d system, they can start moving it in any direction they want. Done right, over a period of 12 months, by slowly implementing changes, they could turn the 2d client into the Stygian Abyss client.

If they do not Abandon the 2D client, UO is going to die. They can fix UO2D all they want and it isn't going to help, it will just keep those few of us who stick around the longest happier while it does die.

And the Engine they have already paid for to use for the new client is a 3D engine. There are no 2D game engines. .. well DirectX before version 6 I guess.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

I don't think a new client should look anything like those games. If you like those graphics go and play a different game or hope and pray for a new UO.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

People at the meeting place on LS kept trying to ask about UOAssist and UOAM working with KR and such, I'm very glad nobody actually took those questions on to ask at the TH, because it would have been a complete waste of our time.

Yes she did. She said they are totally against creating themselves or supporting any out of game, windows GUI style programs.

They want everything to be within the game and Jeremy said if anyone has ideas to use the feedback form.

 

[Tomas_Bryce]

If they do not Abandon the 2D client, UO is going to die.

And what have we gotten after two failed attempts to abandon the 2d clients? A graceful death is better than these so called attempts to abandon the 2d client.

I would rather have the bandwidth be used to make the game fun again instead of trying to make it look pretty. If that proves to be the death of Ultima Online then no pretty graphics were ever going to save it in the first place.

 

[Saphireena]

Woah... I logged on to Stratics for the first time in about a year and found this thread. It's surreal to see people still debating over the KR versus 2D client thingie - as I'm sure I would still have been, had I still been active in UO. Also very endearing of course, that some of you still remember the hi-res examples I made way back ages ago.

I won't even go into commenting on the client stuff and think it's wisest I don't get emotionally involved with all that anymore. Although it's nice to know that some of you out there truly understood the ideas I was putting forth, EA never will - so it's useless really. As Lady Nico so precisely remembers, my frustrations arose from one thing, and one thing only: EA not understanding what UO players need.

Thank you for defending me and my views Lady Nico - you always did understand my intentions and motivations dot on. Such a sweetie pie you are to stick up for me like that! *sniffle*

Dermott: As for your claims of my so called "bitterness", you couldn't be more wrong. Let's set some facts straight here ok?

a) If I really wanted to work for EA, I'd have sent in an application. I've never once applied to EA in all my life. What I did do though, was ask about possibilities of working out of house, here from Finland as an artist. But since they were only hiring in-house people at the time, that was that and any interest in working for EA stopped right there since I can't move out of the country.

If there was anything I felt "confused" about, was that I was told that I'd make a great game designer, and had I ever considered it. Confused, only because I saw of myself as an artist, not a game designer. But I was flattered all the same, being called a promising game designer by Anthony "SunSword" Castoro himself (the producer of UO at the time) ain't exactly bad!

b) Even if EA had come to me and offered me a job right there and then, I would have had to refuse it due to the fact that I have two sons here in Finland and can't leave the country because their fathers are here. Do you understand? No matter how badly I would have loved to be a part of the UO art team, I would have had to refuse.

c) There is absolutely no bitterness about not working for EA. I've been in contact with some of the artists there over the years and they are good people.

Lady Nico did remember correctly, yes I used to be a graphic designer at Nokia, but these days I'm in the game industry where I should be and working as a game artist at Digital Chocolate here in our Helsinki studio. Going on my third year and many mobile and PC titles under my belt by now. Currently I'm acting as lead artist in our very first Xbox title, which is a great honor indeed. Happy as pie and flattered with the trust they've put in me!

Now listen up Dermott, I've said all this stuff several times before in previous threads where you or someone else has thrown these silly accusations of me being bitter. By making such claims, you're only making yourself look like a BIG OLD MEANIE.

Could you possibly consider just letting it go?

 

[Esmeralda]

If they want the majority to adopt it, it needs to look almost exactly the same as the 2D client. Same scale, same colors, same perspective, same graphical UI elements (books look like books, packs like packs, etc)...they just need to make a high-res duplicate of the 2D client.

Until they realize that most of the UO players don't like change, they will continue to fail.

Quoted for truth!

Imagine you have to redo all the hand-made deco so many ppl use!
Oh and one thing that shouldn´t be changed... the writing what ppl say has to stay over their head!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

It was my recollection from some of your last posts here (a while back) and from a few other posters in the same era that there was some bitterness. If I am mistaken in that, then I offer a sincere apology for not understanding the situation.

Your work is great, there is no denying that. Personally, I would have LOVED to see KR use the artwork update style you used in your works in the Pixel Challenge thread, although, I do have to admit that I LOVE the KR terrain graphics and would hate to lose them in favor of the lesser quality 2d terrain even if tweaked for higher resolutions.

Again, my apologies for taking the wrong message from earlier posts.

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

But it IS the older client.

Go back and look at the explanation DD gave for the seemingly outsized graphics ... 300 pixels per inch, which allows crisper graphics, scalable graphics without loss and more. If the KR client had a reasonably easy-to-use UI out of the box with even the stroked graphics, I'd be using it right now.

But ... the UI in KR is not intuitive, nor easy to work with and the graphics are not as crisp as they could be. So I play 2D. IMO, DAoC is a lot cleaner in the graphics department than KR!

 

[Sabbath]

Just wanted to say hi to Saphireena - I was very surprised to see your post today but am glad your back.

I remember all the big 'ol debates you were in last year. Wasn't sure if we'd see you again. I always loved your style and wished EA had taken your ideas to heart.

Anyway, it's nice to see you back and I hope you'll stay and share some more of your mad skillz with us.

 

[Saphireena]

It was my recollection from some of your last posts here (a while back) and from a few other posters in the same era that there was some bitterness.

Bitterness that the quality of art was going down the drain for UO? Yes, because it promised certain death for the game I love.

Bitterness that EA didn't seem to understand the essence of the legacy art and carry that on into KR? Yes, because gradually turning UO into a copy cat of so many other games out there (and doing it badly) also promised certain death of the game I love.

Bitterness that I wasn't hired by EA? Not really possible since I've never applied there in the first place.

I do accept your apology and hope that some day you will be able to see my motives for what they were and always will be. Just pure, raw love for Ultima Online.

PS: The phrase under your banner cracks me up. ;-)

T_Amon_from_work: To be quite honest, when I made those 200% sized upscales, I was never thinking that they would be simply a higher DPI, but actually the very size you see on your screens now. Big! The reason for that is because since the time UO was released in 1997, the resolutions of our screens have actually doubled. They obviously designed items, coins, reagents, characters etc to appear larger than what you see them in the 2D client today and the larger the resolutions become, the smaller those items get for us which diminishes the usability. So contrary to what some here were suggesting, I do in fact believe that the graphics should be seen on screen at the same size they were originally intended over 10 years ago. Which would mean double the size > my upscaled versions.

Someone mentioned the ability to zoom in, and zoom out. But if the 2D client art set were left as is for zooming out, and 200% size for normal view, I think that would work quite nicely.

Secondly, when I did those upscales, I never bothered adding additional colors, only used the exact same RGB values as in the originals. But imagine if the colors, contrast and brightness was perked up, more colors added - the 2D art could be mind-blowing.

As I've said many times before, you have to remember that at the end of the day, even the grandest of 3D art ends up as pixels on our screen. Just thousands and thousands of little RGB colored blocks. The only difference is that so called "2D pixel art" remains in complete control, whilst 3D changes with every turn of a character, with ever shadow and light cast.

Oh god, I'm getting sucked in again. Must... leave... now... before... too... late...

Sabbath: What a lovely greeting, thank you ! Thank you also for the kind words. I'm not really back, just thought that I should check up on how you folks are doing at least once a year. :-D

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I agree with a lot of your sentiments directed at me. Noone was more dejected when they stopped patching Kingdom Reborn than I was. However, as you mentioned my sig, that dejection WAS the impetus for the User's Patch Project which became the Exchange.

One of the points of view that I try to hold is "Ok, sure there is a problem, so what do you do from here". I could whine and cry about the lack of quality of KR as many people have done, or, because since for technical reasons the 2d client has become nearly unplayable for me, I can see if there is anything that I can help do to improve the KR client since it is the one that I use 99.5% of the time.

I've been lucky that I've come in contact with a great group of people and together we have made HUGE strides in improving the client on our own time and will be releasing three enhancements to the client due to the devs' allowance of UI modding, one of which is based on Legacy graphics for the UI.

When they re-release KR as the SA client, we may have to completely rebuild our UI packages, but we fully plan on moving forward and continuing to add what we can to the client.

It's not that KR is a bad client, but it got a bum rap due to horrible decision making by the "suits" and later by the move cross country which is a shame. Hopefully the SA client will blow us away.

Graphically, I believe one of the worst mistakes with KR was the HUGE changes to item artwork (specifically aremor and weapons that look ENTIRELY different as items in your pack in KR than they do in 2d).

I will say it again, if they had done your process with the item artwork, KR would have been much better for it.

 

[Uvtha]

Cogniac, those are all better than the pics Lucitus posted from KR, but at the character level they still don't quite rise to the level shown in the Oblivion pics. Nice background artwork in each. The characters in the Diablo3 and Titanquest pics seem to be a little better than UO3d but still have that kinda chunky klunky look to them. Can't tell about the characters in the 3rd pic. Which game is that from?

...you realize that the reason for that is that a game like oblvion requires some pretty serious hardware to run as a SINGLE player game. Graphics can only be so good for an massive online game right now. Oblivion online level graphics is a ways in the future.

 

[Uvtha]

What EA needs to do is just make UO2. Quick trying to put new paint on UO. If they want to move ahead, take all the good things from UO, make a new world, and release a new game. Don't shut down UO or anything, but expecting that this over a decade old code/graphic/system design base can keep up... its pretty silly. Either decide UO is UO and invest in content, or that UO is NOT enough, and move on to a sequal.

It's beyond time to do so.

 

[Aran]

2D is the only option for me.

No 2D, no UO.

 

[kelmo]

What EA needs to do is just make UO2. Quick trying to put new paint on UO. If they want to move ahead, take all the good things from UO, make a new world, and release a new game. Don't shut down UO or anything, but expecting that this over a decade old code/graphic/system design base can keep up... its pretty silly. Either decide UO is UO and invest in content, or that UO is NOT enough, and move on to a sequal.

It's beyond time to do so.

*nods* Choose.

 

[Maplestone]

What EA needs to do is just make UO2.

I disagree - or rather, I disagree with making it a whole new game starting from scratch. There needs to be continuity or it's not UO. Accumulated history is UO's main strength (at least to me). If they make a UO2, I'd only play if I could smoothly migrate my characters and stuff into it with confidence that it was going to last forever.

And if that is satified, there's no point in making it a separate game.

 

[kelmo]

I disagree - or rather, I disagree with making it a whole new game starting from scratch. There needs to be continuity or it's not UO. Accumulated history is UO's main strength (at least to me). If they make a UO2, I'd only play if I could smoothly migrate my characters and stuff into it with confidence that it was going to last forever.

And if that is satified, there's no point in making it a separate game.

No one is asking for them to quit UO.

 

[Maplestone]

No one is asking for them to quit UO.

*confused*

What would be the point of making a UO2 as an alternative if you don't want people to play it?

 

[Viquire]

This thread has a ton of information and opinion.

I don't have any pics of other games. If I even started looking seriously for other online games to play my wife would probably shoot me.

For me, whatever a new client looks like or is capable of is less important than the fact that it is populated. I choose to play on several shards, most of them low population, because I dislike the aggravation that comes along with hunting alongside folks who do not share well. But I remember very fondly days of adventuring with folks who were all about sharing resources, knowledge of areas and systems, decoration and even in game fashion. I got all that in game, not from a website.

The KR client, while far from perfect, I stand behind in premise for the simple fact that you can only keep painting over a base material for so long before it must be stripped. The KR client was supposed to allow for much greater ease of creature/item creation and coding. The base design for UO is good and solid, our Sosaria is rife with places to hunt and go and things to do. Nine years now and I still haven't done probably but a tad over two thirds of all of it.

I think I'd have a very hard time walking away from that time investment simply for graphical interface. I do not prefer legacy graphics, I want immersion. Which is fancy way of saying I'd like to put myself in the picture. But by the same token KR continues to fall short in that art is used, reused and rehued to represent things that should be unique.

New blood? Oh yeah, we have to have it just to sustain from attrition. And we cant forget AoS and the lessons we learned from creating a playing field that was relatively level for a limited time. Change or evolution is natural, but to simply make a change for the sake of change alone is obviously not the high road we should be thinking about taking.

So many areas of this game need just a little bit of attention to make them better, or to keep them "fresh". But its my opinion that adding layer after layer on top of a beleaguered foundation will eventually bring what was architecturally sound to begin with down around our ears. Our dev team, though they do frustrate me at times, are daily performing small miracles with bailing wire and bubble gum.

Whether you live in a low income area or a gated community, go to church or play in a local sports league, its the neighbors that make a neighborhood not the houses and landscaping.

Maybe improved community building tools for players with a bent to serve that way could be more beneficial than systems that pass themselves off as community, but in reality serve best people who don't care to interact with others or aren't anything more than a very savvy third party program to begin with.

 

[D'Amavir]

Lily, in one hand, offer me the keys to a 2008/9 Ford Humdinger with all the whistles & bells and in the other offer me the keys to the 1964 Ford Mustang, and I'm going to gleefully grab the '64 Mustang from you.

And no, I do not want all the latest whizzy hi-tech gadgets spoiling the feel of my classic 64 Mustang either. If there's a busted spring which pokes my left butt cheek, well, it's character.

Give me a choice between a neatly drawn almost clinical Disney Pixar film dvd and a Bambi/Lady&The Tramp/Aristocats/etc and I'm going to savour the soul and the love injected into each & every single frame of the old hand drawn classics.

You probably like mayonnaise whilst I detest the vile stuff. I'm completely okay with that. Really.

Just like mayo, this client stuff is a taste thing and therefore wholly subjective. You like what you like, and I like what I like. There is no right or wrong.

Of eight accounts, (two of which are polar bear worthy), I am down to three live ones. Because of offline commitments, I've logged in less than a half dozen times over the last three month period. It seems a bit absurd to continue to forking over three monthly subscription fees when I only make the most sparing use of one account.

If EAMythic elects to put whatever meagre funds it has alloted to UO towards possibly, maybe, hopefully, luring new players to the game at the expense of honking off those who've stuck around for a decade or more, there's really not a whole lot I can do about it. Jolly good luck to'em, I say. I will stand down gracefully and remember the good times and good folk I've met in my years in Sosaria.

MortalOnline really does look good, doesn't it? *smiles*

I don't say this much on these boards, and by not much I mean never, but I think I like you.

Running off those players that have stuck through with UO through the years based on just the HOPE of luring new players (considering EA's track record on major changes to the game) would be a bad move. UO will never ever compete with the WoWs of the world. Nor should it even try. You can't please all of the people all of the time but at least you can respect and cherish those that you do please enough to keep them around for 10 years.

That's not to say that UO couldn't use some sprucing up. Absolutely make some changes to improve the 2D client graphics. And do what you can to KR to make it at least tolerable by those that can't tolerate it as it is now. But don't throw it all out and start over just because of this new fangled 3D craze. That mess will soon go the way of the hula hoop, pet rocks and those silly contraptions called cellphones. Well, you get the point at least.

 

[FrejaSP]

What should a new client look like?

My ansvar is short:
It should look and feels like UO.
KR try to that but the client is to bugged for me to play and there is still some stuff in it that do not look or feels like UO.
I hope they can fix that in the SA client.

 

[FrejaSP]

This below is the worse idea ever. How will you have a warrior woman will be able to swing a sword, a smith woman to use har hammer or my archer to use her bow if you cut of her shoulders to make her look like a helpless doll.
Sure if she is a mage she may look like that, same would count for male mage chars but we do not have different char types for different templates.

 

[Warrior of Time]

Mortal Online teaser video:- http://www.mortalonline.com/videos

Game created & developed by old UO players. *smiles* There. Now I have shared my guilty pleasure with you all.

You take grapics like this and add the depth of UO:SA and you should not have any trouble with UO being a hit all over again.
People leaving the game will need to learn a new interface when they change games. True KR's UI needs a LOT of work. I hope that we get to see some of it soon.

 

[Mitzlplik_SP]

I hope it has all the world graphics of KR but char models very similar to 2d.I hate the way the chars look in KR.They all look the same.I think the big draw to 2d is how peaple can stand out and be proud of what their wearing/showing off,even on the paperdoll.KR and UO3D just took the "check me out" part of it. While I love the world/background graphics of KR,its the char model and backpack/paperdoll that I hated(among other things not related to graphics).I like to look at someone riding up and have some idea of what their wearing before I even open their paperdoll,I`m sure others feel the same or you`s wouldn`t chase all that pixel bling,hehe.