Bring back old school thieves?

[kennykilleduo]

Should they be brought back , Yes or No , Discuss why or why not?

 

[Kyle]

Heck Yeah!! I used to love my thief!!!! Allow Insured items to have a chance of being stolen and make them a little harder to reveil.

 

[Zym Dragon]

The problem with stealing from players is that it's only fun for the thief, unless you happen to like chasing thieves around to get your item back. Until someone can make it fun to be a victim too, I say stealing should be limited to pvp/factions. How it should be made viable for pvp/factions I do not know.

 

[Gwendar-SP]

Thieves are a pain.

 

[Masumatek]

Yes, and the only way to do it is removal of insurance/blessings.

Btw, stealing isn't only good for the thieves. It adds risk and danger to your gameplay, excitement...there's no point in playing without it such things.

 

[Zym Dragon]

Yes, and the only way to do it is removal of insurance/blessings.

Btw, stealing isn't only good for the thieves. It adds risk and danger to your gameplay, excitement...there's no point in playing without it such things.

Don't you mean excitement for the thief and frustration for the victim? While interacting with an honorable RP thief can be somewhat enjoyable, by and large, being stolen from is just plain annoying if not downright frustrating. If Fel players enjoyed being stolen from, wouldn't they leave their gear/loot uninsured?

 

[Loqucious]

Can you please describe what you think an old school thief is? I think thieves could use a little help, but I'm not sure exactly what you are thinking.

 

[Masumatek]

No they wouldn't. Most fel players probably want insurance. Most MMO players are carebears who want it easy, no challenge, no risk, no danger. That's just the way it is. But that doesn't change the way it should be. Any true gamer who belongs in an MMO and not in a one-player game (like most mmo players do), will have no problem with thieves existing and all gear uninsured. It's fun for the thief yes. But it adds risk for the victims, which makes it good for them too.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Thieves are a pain.

HEY!!!...la

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Don't you mean excitement for the thief and frustration for the victim? While interacting with an honorable RP thief can be somewhat enjoyable, by and large, being stolen from is just plain annoying if not downright frustrating. If Fel players enjoyed being stolen from, wouldn't they leave their gear/loot uninsured?

Maybe they should make it so they can't be looted either. Everything should be blessed. Eliminate insurance too. Nobody likes having to pay everytime they die.

Maybe we can get a macro that we can press, then sit back and watch as our character interact with only the monsters and NPCs, I mean this is a single player game...isn't it?...la

 

[packrat]

I swear. Reds/want to be red, are the biggest cry babies. They complained so much about thieves the devs completely devistated thieves. When the ninja archers came out, they cried until the devs nerfed them so bad it almost doesnt pay to have a ninja archer anymore. They came out with super dragons and they are crying because dragons are too tough. Now they want to jump on the thieves again. But, they don't complain when they kill some poor miner/lumberjack and get their insurance money.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

I swear.

You shouldn't, it's a bad habit...la

 

[Zym Dragon]

Maybe they should make it so they can't be looted either. Everything should be blessed. Eliminate insurance too. Nobody likes having to pay everytime they die.

Maybe we can get a macro that we can press, then sit back and watch as our character interact with only the monsters and NPCs, I mean this is a single player game...isn't it?...la

You are reading way too much into my post if you think I'd agree to all of that.

All I'm saying is that there are very few people who get enjoyment/excitement out of being a victim of a typical thief. Most people play games to have a good time, not to become fodder for someone else's enjoyment.

So the question is how do you make stealing from players tolerable from the victim's point of view, while maintaining the fun of being the thief?

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Bring back old school thieves (even though there may be more of us around that some may think) isn't about fun for other players, it's about fun for the people who enjoy playing thieves, and a different flavor of PvP for the other players.

Learn how to evade thieves stealing your loot, or learn how to tell who is in the thieves guild and if they are freely attackable (this would require the devs to bring back gray status for thieves). There were all sorts of scenarios where players interacted that went away when the bulk of my profession was eliminated with insurance.

At this point, I don't care about insurance since I don't play on a production shard, but there are still a lot of things that the devs could do that would make playing a thief more fun to play for many others. I will always play a thief while playing UO. It's the main part of the game that I can't adapt to, lol...la

 

[Helen D]

i voted yes, im all for old school stuff being bought back but not if it meant losing insure. if they could put it in without making it quite so tedious to re-kit your char id be all for it

 

[Hunter Moon]

Your asking for a return of old type thieves. The problem I see with your request is that it would mean the end of blessed items and insurance and yes these didn't really exist with the old time thieves, BUT old time thieves stole GM armor and some Fort and Invul. They never had access to say an orni or a sword made with a val runic kit. The complexity and expense of armor and weapons after AOS is what brought about insurance and personal bless deeds and asking for old thieving rules with totally different armor and weapon classes is asking for something that is nothing like how old thieving use to be. It didn't use to be that hard to go get another GM suit or a set of Invul armor and almost NO ONE fought with above GM weapons in Fel so this reinstitution of "old thieving rules" can not exist as it did before in the current setting of UO.

Yes I miss the complexity of the experience thieves use to add to the game, but the old rules can't be brought back under this system and a new way to integrate should be found that allows for interaction with players and not just stealthing and stealing stuff in doom or occasionally being able to sneak into a champ spawn without instantly dying.

Hunter Moon [HOT] Atlantic

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Within PvP systems and areas, sure... otherwise, no.

 

[Viper09]

What is so wrong about letting thieves do what they were made to do in the first place? They would obviously only be able to steal from players in fel. It isn't like there are a lot of players in fel to begin with. Before tram even came out people knew how to protect themselves from thieves because they knew how to adapt. Adaptation should be a part of a mmo. I say let thieves do what they were allowed to do since the game was created. Infact, I would go so far as to say if people want to complain so much, let all thieves in the thieves guild be perma gray in fel even if they haven't stolen from a player yet. That is they appear blue but are still attackable in the guard zone. I myself have a thief and would not have a problem with this aspect. It would force thieves who are having trouble use the disguise kits and make a semi-necessity to the forensics skill.

 

[Farsight]

As much as I loved being a thief, I had to vote no.

I became a thief under the "If you can't beat them, join them" rule of gaming. Many of my close friends left the game under the "If you can't beat them, play something more fun" rule of gaming. For every one person I knew way back then who didn't mind the thieves, I knew two people who quit the game because of the stealing.

But it was so much fun to be a thief.

 

[Viper09]

*BIG NOTE* I am not saying anyone here is a trammy

Well, now we have tram for people who don't want to deal with more of the risk. So personally, those who don't play in fel at all shouldn't be commenting on this issue.

*BIG NOTE* I am not saying anyone here is a trammy

Hopefully these bold letters will help those who comment before reading the entire post

 

[Fink]

You could have it so:

- Stealing an insured item puts it in the bank of the owner
- The victim loses the cost of insurance from their bank
- The thief gets the insurance in their backpack

Basically there's an arbitrary exchange (the insurance gold), and a tactical consequence (item is banked / taken out of the situation). Also you can potentially kill the thief and get your insurance back.

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

No.

Thieves should not be returned to the game in any form in which they existed in the past. Disarm thieves were the bane of UO. It's highly possible they caused more people to quit UO than AoS did.

Insurance or no insurance, thieves shouldn't be allowed to steal things from your backpack or right out of your hands. I don't personally see any way for it to be implemented without it again becoming nothing but a griefing class of characters and players.

Thieves can currently steal almost anything that hasn't been insured, cursed items and powerscrolls, reagents and other consumables. If anything you should be asking for more items to be able to be stolen. New items which are available in good quantity and replaceable but functional and desirable enough to be used even though it could be stolen from you. That wouldn't require the thief skill be changed in any way. Add new uninsureable, cursed items for thieves to steal.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Disarm thieves were the bane of UO.

Did we make you cry?...la

 

[Viper09]

Did we make you cry?...la

lol. Well, to be honest, I would not mind if the only way to bring back stealing in fel would be to make a disarmed weapon un-stealable (new word) for a couple seconds at tops, just to give the man some time to try and save his weapon

Plus, lets face it. Disarm thieves were NOT the bane of UO. When you could disarm steal, UO was NOT an item based game like it is now. It would not hard to go out and get a new weapon. Plus, if they had a good weapon back then, then they were prepared for the RISK of DIEING with that weapon and LOSING it without thieves involved, duh. lol Thieves were not the main concern back then, it was the pks, since if a pk kills you, you lose ALL your items on you that were not blessed, whereas a thief can only steal whats in the bag.

 

[linko50]

seems people are scared to take chances, even with simple pigments, what has UO come to..... a flock of sheep, god i feel sorry for the average player if they were to ever face what uo use to be, they would be so robbed

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

lol. Well, to be honest, I would not mind if the only way to bring back stealing in fel would be to make a disarmed weapon un-stealable (new word) for a couple seconds at tops, just to give the man some time to try and save his weapon

Plus, lets face it. Disarm thieves were NOT the bane of UO. When you could disarm steal, UO was NOT an item based game like it is now. It would not hard to go out and get a new weapon. Plus, if they had a good weapon back then, then they were prepared for the RISK of DIEING with that weapon and LOSING it without thieves involved, duh. lol Thieves were not the main concern back then, it was the pks, since if a pk kills you, you lose ALL your items on you that were not blessed, whereas a thief can only steal whats in the bag.

The problem was, people were afraid to learn game mechanics to help them defeat disarm thieves. As a disarm thief, I know what our issues were and how we could be foiled. It was an easy thing, but too many people were unable to figure it out...shame really. That may have been the most fun i have had in an online game...la

 

[phantus]

Did we make you cry?...la

Even if they did. Who's crying now?

 

[Mayadevi]

You could have it so:

- Stealing an insured item puts it in the bank of the owner
- The victim loses the cost of insurance from their bank
- The thief gets the insurance in their backpack

Basically there's an arbitrary exchange (the insurance gold), and a tactical consequence (item is banked / taken out of the situation). Also you can potentially kill the thief and get your insurance back.

Hey Fink, that's a sort of cool idea !

I miss thieves. I really do. But I've seen how upset people can get when some griefer steals their stuff. Not a fun thief, mind you , a grieffer thief. Thieving is a good way to cause folks grief and upsetment, and make things no fun.

Maybe if it was just in Fel or in factions or there was some sort of way, a person could flag themselves as thievable, LOL. I want thievery back !

And yes, I'm sort of trammie care bear. Everytime I go to Fel I die,
I go to Fel AlOT, so I die, alot. I get loooted alot ! I'm an idiot and forget to insure my nifty cool uber items ALOT. But I'm cool with that, I went to Fel willingly and I deserve it.

Some people though, aren't cool with that, and they get all upset and cry ALOT. Their crying makes me just want to cry or scream or SHAKE THEM !! They ought to have some way of not getting thieved, so they don't cry.

*nods firmly*

Mayadevi (Up WAY past her bedtime, can ya tell?

 

[Nisse/Ubbe]

I voted yes.

The reson why we need to restore thieves is simple.
1 UO is to easy now
2 If you can kill and loot you should be able to steal same items
3 To much safty just make people be more greedy

 

[Kith Kanan]

Should they be brought back , Yes or No , Discuss why or why not?

nope dont realy have any use for naked griefers , back when matching ya gear was a matter of seconds , sure it was good fun , today no thx , I dont want no freaking griefers stealing items worth 100m+ without ANY risk.

and no dying nakid or in GM gear is not a risk.... Make it so everytime the thief FAILS to steal the item , he looses 10m from his bank account and it gets xfered to the surposed victims account , and 5m if he steals it but gets cought and killed [ upon death stolen item gets auto returned to victim ] .. U all want fair risk v reward right ?????

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Even if they did. Who's crying now?

Tamers?...la

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

...and 5m if he steals it but gets cought

caught...la

 

[Prince Caspian]

The problem with stealing from players is that it's only fun for the thief, unless you happen to like chasing thieves around to get your item back. Until someone can make it fun to be a victim too, I say stealing should be limited to pvp/factions. How it should be made viable for pvp/factions I do not know.

Yes, the problem with the fun of a thief is that it is utterly at the expense of your fellow players. IE, the fun you are experiencing is fuelled directly from the irritation and grief you are causing to another player.

Thieves back in the day were a massive pain. First of all, a throwaway newbie character could effectively steal, making death utterly pointless (indeed, part of the job) and without any penalty for the thief -- yet the potential for a big score was obviously worth it, as the banks were infested with em.

Also, thieving was at the heart of countless cheats and exports (remember that nifty little UOE feature that let you steal an archer's ammo just by running past him?)

 

[Sir_Bolo]

I'd be interested to hear from all of the old-school thieves a proposal that makes sense on how to bring back thieves without removing item insurance...

Fink's proposal makes sense, but I doubt the old-school thieves would find it interesting.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

First of all, a throwaway newbie character could effectively steal, making death utterly pointless (indeed, part of the job) and without any penalty for the thief -- yet the potential for a big score was obviously worth it, as the banks were infested with em.

Not true. Stop making up things...la

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

I'd be interested to hear from all of the old-school thieves a proposal that makes sense on how to bring back thieves without removing item insurance...

Fink's proposal makes sense, but I doubt the old-school thieves would find it interesting.

The first item changed should be the reintroduction of "grey status"...then again, I'm not sure I would ever go back to a production shard. Siege is just fine thank you very much...la

 

[phantus]

Not true. Stop making up things...la

Only the part about the newbie thief. The rest is all too true. No risk and thieves on every corner was a reality.

 

[Nisse/Ubbe]

Sir Bolo you just need to cap the number of items you can insure and all items that can be looted should also be stealebel.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Only the part about the newbie thief. The rest is all too true. No risk and thieves on every corner was a reality.

LOL, you seem to pop up in every thief thread crying about "risK'. Back then, what real risk was there in getting stolen from? You lose a group of pixels. OHNOES!!! *gets into the fetal position and rocks while crying*...la

 

[phantus]

LOL, you seem to pop up in every thief thread crying about "risK'. Back then, what real risk was there in getting stolen from? You lose a group of pixels. OHNOES!!! *gets into the fetal position and rocks while crying*...la

Ahh...that is where you are incorrect beggar. I had little problem with thieves that wore a suit. Disarm thieves were a giant pain in the ass but at least they risked their suit when they went out unlike the zounds of leg humping death robe thieves that plagued every bank in the land. You act as if nothing was worth stealing back in those days. Who is lying now?

 

[Vex]

Just last week I posted about Thieving. I had asked if it was worth my time to make a Thief and didn't get too many positive responses (if any). I was basically told that if I don't play on Siege, it's a waste of my time. I went ahead and started building the character anyway. I see people here talking about how frustrating Thieves usedto be. I didn't play the game back in those days, so I can't comment on that. I will say, however, most of my forays into Felucca these days have been frustrating. Perhaps as equally frustrating as those who fell victim to a Thief back in the old days. I'm not going to go into a rant about getting ganked by reds each and everytime I recall into Felucca -- Instead I am making a Thief.

I voted yes. Even though my Thieving will be limited, I'm going for it anyway. I don't care if all I can get is bandies or gold or a crappy item. I want to have some fun with the people who who think it is equally as fun to surround and gank the poor suckers like myself who do not own 50m suits and gear and want to venture into Felucca. If Thieves are allowed to exist in the game, they should be able to steal things that are worth something. I have no interest in stealing anything in Tram, except maybe the Inquis. I don't care about dying - have enough gold to die as many times.

I'm well on my way - just GM'd Snoop last night and have 12 more gains till I can join the Thieves guild. Watch for a new Thief on a shard near you!

Maybe Rico can give me lessons/tips! What say you?? ... ha

 

[Prince Caspian]

Not true. Stop making up things...la

I beg to differ. Back in 97-98, the West Brit bank was swarming with people in death robes. Because they didn't even bother to redress since they were gonna die soon anyway. As soon as you came up to the bank, someone would be snooping in your pack, and then run like hell when they yoinked something.

90% of the time you'd call guards but every once in a while they'd get away with it. Often with an extremely valuable item.

If I'm making it up, it must have been a mass hallucination, as virtually everyone I knew at the time had similiar stories and avoided the WBB like the plague.

And the newbie thief was a reality. You'd make a throwaway char with 50 snoop and 50 thief. That would be enough to steal any item in the game back at that time. There was also the ol' smash and grab -- two thieves working together. One would steal and get guardwhacked, and have a grey corpse, and then their partner would scoop up the item immediately.

This is another case of people's nostalgia conveniently forgetting the bad parts. A thief character was created only to prey on other players, and they were wildly overpowered.

Of course now even under the best circumstances, thieves arent gonna get much from you now. Insurance, blessed items, Fel -- if you get anything of note stolen by a thief (if you can even find one these days), you only have yourself to blame.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Ahh...that is where you are incorrect beggar. I had little problem with thieves that wore a suit. Disarm thieves were a giant pain in the ass but at least they risked their suit when they went out unlike the zounds of leg humping death robe thieves that plagued every bank in the land. You act as if nothing was worth stealing back in those days. Who is lying now?

You are...la

 

[phantus]

You are...la

You got nothing beggar. Nothing but nostalgic memories of a time when you were king. And now...

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

If I'm making it up, it must have been a mass hallucination, as virtually everyone I knew at the time had similiar stories and avoided the WBB like the plague.

Maybe so, you know though, the easy way to get around this supposed problem? Quit bank sitting...la

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

I was basically told that if I don't play on Siege, it's a waste of my time.

This would be a true statement...la

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

You got nothing beggar.

That should be "You've"...la

 

[Prince Caspian]

Maybe so, you know though, the easy way to get around this supposed problem? Quit bank sitting...la

Indeed... I've never understood bank sitting.

But let's be frank here -- there's a big world of difference between bank sitting and making a mad dash to the bank just to drop off an item before the mob of thieves swarm you.

 

[Emil IsTemp]

Yes they should be brought back, and with tweaks:

As far as stealing insured items, the thief gets 600gp deposited into their bank for a succesful steal attempt on the item. (gold comes from the victim, pending they can afford) The item stays with the owner, and cannot be re-targeted for theft by the same thief for a set amount of time.

IMO, lockpicking is a rogue skill, not a treasure pickin' skill. Make a practical use for it besides dungeon/town chests. Maybe NPC homes in town/wilderness have locked doors? With items inside to steal? (burglary)

A thief quest system. Go up to the thief guildmaster, and ask for a contract/job. "Go steal this gem-encrusted sword from Reebdoog the Noble, and bring it to Fingers the Fence for your cut."

As far as risk/reward? THIEVES take ALL the risk. If I had 100gp for everytime I died, by the guards or someone who wants their items back...

Penalty for thieves? Yes, we have to wait till were blue after dying to get rezzed, and another penalty is our cover is blown. Now everyone knows who the thief is when he comes back.

Disarm thieves? Kinda pointless now. Too many skill points, and item insurance...

Look at it this way;

Only if I could steal in wolf form...

It could be much much worse...

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Indeed... I've never understood bank sitting.

But let's be frank here -- there's a big world of difference between bank sitting and making a mad dash to the bank just to drop off an item before the mob of thieves swarm you.

Last time I checked, there were more than one bank in the game to go to. Hell for that matter, there were more than one bank in Brit. This is what I mean about players being too lazy to learn how to adapt. If thieves were such a bane, do your banking elsewhere. Sheesh...la