Considered an exploit or no?

[Kat]

So, lets say an opposing faction puts an alt character into your faction. No harm in and of itself, but then said character redlines himself... stealths up to a person in the same faction, attacks and dies. The result? The person HE ATTACKS.... loses kill points for killing a fellow faction member. Rinse and repeat all evening long and the next thing ya know... your enemy has no kill points!

What say you... Is this an exploit or intended game play?

 

[Uvtha]

I think you already know the answer.

 

[kelmo]

That is lame.

 

[Kat]

I know what I -think- is the answer, but I've been wrong in the past, even though my logic made plenty of sense.

 

[Krystal]

if i had to guess, i'd say an abuse of game mechanics?
geeze i wonder whose the big baby in the game would go this far geeze :loser:

 

[JC the Builder]

When did they change it so you lose kill points for killing people in your own faction? I didn't see this in any notes.

 

[kelmo]

JC meet Kat... One of the most knowledgeable faction players I know.

 

[Kat]

​

When did they change it so you lose kill points for killing people in your own faction? I didn't see this in any notes.

It's been that way as long as I've been in factions. Keep in mind we are talking about 2 people in the same faction, not the same guild.

 

[Wallenstein]

This wouldn't be an illegal exploit. It's within the game's legalities and there's really nothing wrong with it. If the game allows you to own two characters in two separate factions, and allows 'friendly fire' within factions, then the development team behind UO is indirectly asking for this type of situation to happen.

So, would I personally consider it bannable? Not in a million years. It's perfectly within the limits of what's perfectly possible and feasible in the game.

 

[kelmo]

This wouldn't be an illegal exploit. It's within the game's legalities and there's really nothing wrong with it. If the game allows you to own two characters in two separate factions, and allows 'friendly fire' within factions, then the development team behind UO is indirectly asking for this type of situation to happen.

So, would I personally consider it bannable? Not in a million years. It's perfectly within the limits of what's perfectly possible and feasible in the game.

Cool! One more reason to add a character to Siege accounts...

Legal or not I will not argue, Lame? Yeah.

 

[Kat]

Wallenstein - Your opinion is noted.

IMO, the person initiating the attack on a character in his same faction, should be the one to suffer some sort of penalty. It would have to be something other than kill points, because people who do this typically don't have any kill points. The whole point is to make you LOSE yours.

 

[Sarphus]

This wouldn't be an illegal exploit. It's within the game's legalities and there's really nothing wrong with it. If the game allows you to own two characters in two separate factions, and allows 'friendly fire' within factions, then the development team behind UO is indirectly asking for this type of situation to happen.

So, would I personally consider it bannable? Not in a million years. It's perfectly within the limits of what's perfectly possible and feasible in the game.

I think you're 100% wrong on this one

The type of behavior Kat is describing is clearly an exploit of broken game mechanics. At the very least it would classify as griefing, but most likely it would classify as bannable exploitation of a bug.

Your argument could be applied to duping to imply that duping is legal when people discover a broken game system that allows them to dupe. Obviously duping is never legal and neither is exploting a bug or design flaw in any game system.

 

[Blesh]

I dont personally pvp or play factions, but to me this seems like one of those things that can and will happen, however, wasnt really intended by the devs.

May i suggest emailing jeremy? you could also send in a bug report.

Maybe you'll get lucky and she'll address it here.

best of luck to you

 

[RoycroftLS]

What say you... Is this an exploit or intended game play?

I don't know if exploit is the word I would use, griefing would be a better word choice:

"An act of griefing involves the following three types of actions to be considered grief play:

1) The use or abuse of a game mechanic that was not intended by the game's developers.
2) The inability of the victim to exact some means of retribution beyond utilizing similar unintended game mechanics.
3) The intended purpose of an act of griefing must be to negatively impact the game play of another person. "

The main point for debate seems to be number 1. Why would the devs put in a rule to penalize you for killing a fellow faction member? That's easy, to discourage people from disrupting the team environment.

But penalizing people for simply autodefending undermines the entire premise for having the rule in the first place. That certainly seems like an unintended consequence of the game mechanic to me.

 

[wee papa smurf]

I just now tried this and heres the results-

1) I had my archer attack a fellow faction member who was not in the same guild, killed him and never lost a point.

2) I waited to go uncrim then had my fellow faction member who was not in the same guild attack and kill me, and still no point loss.

So maybe this was a bug for you but it deffinitly never worked for me, oh and yes my archer did have 6 points and at the end he still had 6 points

 

[OldAsTheHills]

Cool! One more reason to add a character to Siege accounts...

Legal or not I will not argue, Lame? Yeah.

Another reason to stay out of Factions on Siege Perilous until it gets fixed!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[Ru TnT]

I just now tried this and heres the results-

1) I had my archer attack a fellow faction member who was not in the same guild, killed him and never lost a point.

2) I waited to go uncrim then had my fellow faction member who was not in the same guild attack and kill me, and still no point loss.

So maybe this was a bug for you but it deffinitly never worked for me, oh and yes my archer did have 6 points and at the end he still had 6 points

were you guys in the same alliance? in tram?

 

[Ru TnT]

Another reason to stay out of Factions on Siege Perilous until it gets fixed!

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

you were planning on joining factions eventually??? i'd suggest SL, they could really use some help...

 

[Draconi]

So, lets say an opposing faction puts an alt character into your faction. No harm in and of itself, but then said character redlines himself... stealths up to a person in the same faction, attacks and dies. The result? The person HE ATTACKS.... loses kill points for killing a fellow faction member. Rinse and repeat all evening long and the next thing ya know... your enemy has no kill points!

What say you... Is this an exploit or intended game play?

It's not an exploit, but it's incredibly poor game design. Mesanna is already compiling info on it, and I'd like to see it resolved for 56.

 

[AirmidCecht]

It's not an exploit, but it's incredibly poor game design. Mesanna is already compiling info on it, and I'd like to see it resolved for 56.

Me too since one guild mass killed everyone else in their faction that was not in their guild. They proclaimed unless you join their guild they would kill you on sight. Dumb thing was they lost all their thieves, hehe. So there was no penalty for this or am I reading it wrong?

 

[kelmo]

It's not an exploit, but it's incredibly poor game design. Mesanna is already compiling info on it, and I'd like to see it resolved for 56.

 

[wee papa smurf]

were you guys in the same alliance? in tram?

nope he was blue to me in fell

 

[Tina Small]

Is this unique to factions on Siege? Don't you guys have Evil/Hero aspects to factions which are not present in factions on the other shards? You've never lost kill points on the other shards for killing characters in the same faction. Might get murder counts, but you didn't lose kill points.

See the original description of the revised Evil/Hero system from October 25, 2001 for Siege here: http://update.uo.com/design_365.html .

One of the bulleted items states the following: "Killing faction characters who are in your own faction will incur a penalty. The killer in this case will lose 50% of his current kill points, lose 100% of the lifeforce accumulated, and be able to be reported as a murderer. An exception to this will be the killing of guild mates, thus allowing characters to spar with guild mates. Another exception is that if your character is attacked by another, you are allowed to defend yourself with impunity. "

 

[Kat]

Is this unique to factions on Siege? Don't you guys have Evil/Hero aspects to factions which are not present in factions on the other shards? You've never lost kill points on the other shards for killing characters in the same faction. Might get murder counts, but you didn't lose kill points.

See the original description of the revised Evil/Hero system from October 25, 2001 for Siege here: http://update.uo.com/design_365.html .

One of the bulleted items states the following: "Killing faction characters who are in your own faction will incur a penalty. The killer in this case will lose 50% of his current kill points, lose 100% of the lifeforce accumulated, and be able to be reported as a murderer. An exception to this will be the killing of guild mates, thus allowing characters to spar with guild mates. Another exception is that if your character is attacked by another, you are allowed to defend yourself with impunity. "

Thanks, Tina! That explains the difference in out come on regular shards vs. SP. It also explains JC's confusion on the issue! Killing an unguilded faction mate on Siege, results in a penalty.

 

[Kat]

So, lets say an opposing faction puts an alt character into your faction. No harm in and of itself, but then said character redlines himself... stealths up to a person in the same faction, attacks and dies. The result? The person HE ATTACKS.... loses kill points for killing a fellow faction member. Rinse and repeat all evening long and the next thing ya know... your enemy has no kill points!

What say you... Is this an exploit or intended game play?

It's not an exploit, but it's incredibly poor game design. Mesanna is already compiling info on it, and I'd like to see it resolved for 56.

Thanks, Draconi! It'll be interesting to see how this type of situation is resolved!