Speedhacking, Duping, UMing ~Cheating - they all need to go bye-bye asap

[Nexus]

- I happen to like that Harlequin mentioned Lilith

Sorry, I'd wanted to mention that in my last post.
Don't mind me & I do feel bad about going ~OT in this thread.

How great would it be if EA did not have to ban anyone for duping ( and / or other forms of cheating) because they had checks and balances put into place that prevented and / or severely discouraged people from cheaing in the first place? So great, hehe. So great that it might behoove them to do as much towards that, before they do the whole SA expansion / client thing; I reckon.

I do want to hear everyone's thoughts toward regulating the cheating in UO; hopefully we can band together and help improve it.

Personally I think they need the checks and balances in place, but at the same time until they can be put into place they need to continue what they are doing and removing items as quickly as they can. There are a lot of things that need addressed, though and a lot of it is all in the attitude of the players also. On any given day I know I could personally flag no less than 10-20 people for clear violations of the ROC and TOS. Everything from people using character names that violate 3rd party trademarks because they named their character after their favorite liquor, in more common with crafters a brand name, or simply because of the language you see on the other side of a red gate. Do I do so? no..I do flag scripters and afk macroers though as I think they are a more serious issue. But if the guys and gals at Mythic want to make UO a successful game again in terms of market share they will sooner or later wind up cracking down on the above mentioned things just to prove a point and clean house in preparation of hopeful new blood.

I wonder if it isn't already happening, notice the bans and suspensions over what for a long time were considered trivial things that were ignored?

 

[AesSedai]

- Thx a lot, Nexus

You just made me log-back-in because I wanted to say:

Bravo!
Und, yup.. my thoughts, almost, exactly!

(What good are rules if they are not enforced? If the game rules are insignificant / or outdated, then they should be changed / or updated. But when one sees the rules constantly broken, what does that tell one about the state of the game?)
Yes, I also agree that they look to be improving the state of UO affairs; and I hope it progressively continues.

 

[Harlequin]

Wouldn't giving each individual item a unique ID at it's creation and, a Date/Time Tag for when it was created work. When the server boots up either after a crash or maintenance, it has to load the items existing in the world anyways...Programs load data one line of data at a time so the server is in essence reading the list anyways. When the server saves does it verify the data integrity to insure there isn't a corrupt save?, if not why not? What are the odds of 2 people getting a Crimmy or Orny or Val hammer at the exact same instance down to the 100th of a second? If there is a save verifying process it's basically pouring over these lists...if there was a means done to catch duplicates at that point then Dupes could be found and deleted shortly after creation. Now here's the kicker, you know who has possession of the original, you know who if not the same person has the duplicate, because items are tied to the account in possession of them either in the bank box, or pack or they are in a house owned by who ever giving the account info, unless it changed hands right after the dupe occurred there's minimal risk to innocents. Who Dupes 20 Val Runic hammers and find a buyer for them withing seconds, not many I'd think something that expensive would take a bit to sell, maybe not long but I'm sure most likely time for the next periodic save would pass. How long do the same Crimsons stay on vendors? If things could be set up to use what I mentioned above Accounts could be flagged by the system and a separated file generated to list by account and shard and the mismatches from the save log. See the same account popping up on multiple shards and you've got strong evidence of foul play, See the same Account show up on numerous reports you've got Strong evidence, with several of the same item, one even one shard what are the odds they got 15 val hammers that were created at the exact same moment?. How long would it take for a couple of GM's to check through multiple accounts? They can access your house, bank and pack without you knowing...How hard would it be to confirm that they are duping knowingly like that?

If they develop a system to help them keep on it, without all the leg work and people manually pouring over logs, even if it's a separate program to read the saves and generating the reports then that makes removal of and banning of dupes and dupers much faster. If done right then you don't have to worry about Adam, Eve, Cain, and Lucifer having a twisted trade triangle, The items can be found and removed quickly...matter of fact a system to do that automatically could be put in place and a Pop-up Window in game to tell the person what was deleted and why when it happens that stays up until manually closed without having to Ban anyone. Sooner or later the Dupers would have to give up, though repeat offenses should still be looked into.

Yup, I believe that they definitely have ways to identify duped items. Be it a unique ID, S/N, index address, date/timestamp.

I suspect the integrity check doesn't checks for duplicate items at the moment. It looks like it's just a quick dump of the server state at regular intervals throughout the day, to reduce impact on the players. That being said, yes, a scan can be done at server up. And a pop-up window to tell players that their duplicated item has been deleted instead of outright bans would be wonderful! That should warn off potential cheaters. If an incorrigible cheater keeps doing it too many times though (say 3 strikes), then bring out the ban stick.

As to checking the logs for duped items, I think that's what they are doing for the time being. I also believe that they have a script that will flag the dupes and owners. Once flagged, to avoid mistakes, they will get someone, perhaps a GM look at the flagged accounts.

Coming up with a program to flag these for a GM's attention as you said, is very viable. Incorporating this directly into the server code and auto-delete items could be considered a bit too dangerous though. Until they work out all potential issues and can be sure no mistakes will be made.

So at the moment, part of it requires human interaction. And this part looks like it will only be done when the situation warrants it, instead of a daily basis.

While it may not be perfect, I can understand the cost-benefit aspect of their decision. An analogy would be - my company has a website. Everyday I get tons of portscan/telnet/DOS etc attacks. These will all be logged and flagged, but I will only look deeper if I suddenly see a drastic increase of attempts. To look into each daily, alot more manpower is required. If after a risk analysis, the risk of losing sensitive company info is high enough, that will justify more headcounts to pour over the logs daily and inspect every attempt. If management thinks the cost is too high and do not justify the benefits, then no extra headcounts and we continue to investigate only when we see something out of the norm.

 

[Harlequin]

a conundrum, to be sure.
So devoid of a perfect solution;
mayhaps we solely strive to employ a better one?
(I am enjoying the discourse )
(I am hoping to hear of more potential ways to deter this situation)

(I think the continuous updating of UO might have been refuted at one time, maybe by a MrTact? even; but I can only guess at why that might have been, as I cannot simply research Stratics' history these days; I think it had something to do with these illegal applications merely adapting, and automating daily checks, in order to allow their illicit programs to continuously function. But then again, if they wanted to do that, then why haven't I heard anything about them already doing so..? I want to stress that I am not positive about that re:Tact, as it is just a stray memory that may have been none but a long-lived wish. And, I want to stress that it is something that I too have thought they should have been doing in attempt to curb the cheating that has been hampering UO's true potential. I would dearly love to hear some clarification from the anti-cheating EA unit as to why that would not be a feasible partial-solution to this uber-hindrance of UO's potential.)

Aye, a rhythmic beat sounds in my ear,
Could this be discourse that I hear?

Is it the beat of a base drum reveberating in my eardrum?
Or are these 4 lines of meaningless hum rather a conundrum?

Ok, bad limerick... But beats what I wanted to say originally, which was - "Yup, definitely a conundrum".

I think the devs are really devoted to UO and know that cheating will destroy the game. They have a partial solution with what they are doing now, which probably takes a bit more manpower than they like. Meanwhile, I am sure they are looking at ways to come up with a solution that would be acceptable to everyone (including the budget managers in EA).

I think they are hesitant with coming up with a solution which can be easily countered. This will waste resources which would definitely be frowned upon by their superiors.

"So Dilbert, what did you do this month? I wrote some kickass code that stops 3rd party programs cold! That's great! Yup, it worked for 3 days until someone came up with a way to circumvent it"

 

[Belmarduk]

Cheating and scripting will be the final nail in the coffin.
Either EA does something about it or there is no point in further development.

 

[Harlequin]

- I happen to like that Harlequin mentioned Lilith

Sorry, I'd wanted to mention that in my last post.
Don't mind me & I do feel bad about going ~OT in this thread.

How great would it be if EA did not have to ban anyone for duping ( and / or other forms of cheating) because they had checks and balances put into place that prevented and / or severely discouraged people from cheaing in the first place? So great, hehe. So great that it might behoove them to do as much towards that, before they do the whole SA expansion / client thing; I reckon.

I do want to hear everyone's thoughts toward regulating the cheating in UO; hopefully we can band together and help improve it.

I initally started with Player A and Guildy B. But as it got more convoluted, I changed it to Adam and Eve to reduce confusion. And gave everyone else names

Back on track, yup, it wil be great if cheating can be prevented right off the bat or delete the duped items without the need to ban. From a technical standpoint, this might be a bit challenging since every new expansion/patch may introduce loopholes that can be exploited. I believe that they need to look at it from both technical and non-technical aspects (like enforcing a way to warn players that they have been detected and are being watched etc).

 

[Velvathos]

You know back in the day there was no scripters, and there isn't any on Siege, here is why..

With non-static respawns, bots would be slowed down in collecting, have to travel to farm, and increase chances of running into PKers, which means they would need more accounts to collect and in return cost more money. If they had speedy customer support they would need many, many accounts to keep up with demand and whos to say they don't get killed and looted for the money they are trying to send as well. Just more profit loss for those poor gold sellers.

I would suggest however, guards be weakened to a point where you could kill them if this ever happened.

Let's put it this way.. The developers have the resources, they need to take a chance, they can change the game mechanics, at anytime. We need to be given the ability to fight these kind of odds in UO, if the GM's won't.

The only problem with my theory is that the majority of people selling gold in mmos dont farm it, they dupe it, although it may come from bots farming gold as well, but this will work well against scripters..

Seige Perilous is an example of a good economy in UO, the mechanics allow players to fight back against greifers, scripters, spammers, people you hate, bots, and duping does not exist..

I just don't see any other option besides punkbuster, which won't happen anytime soon, besides that, UO is f'ed, unless the game mechanics change back to its sandbox roots..

But as far as scripters go, I think the only way to rid them is if the GM's changed the mechanics, if I could kill and loot every scripter I see, I would, and that would be the end of it, so a BIG tribute to all this cheating, it is sad but true, is Trammel and its ruleset, sorry guys, it is sad but true..

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Each time an ID is created, it is unique. But therein lies the simplicity of solving ALL potential to dupe. If they would take a few minutes to add a Validity check to the routine assigning Item IDs there would no longer be any posability to dupe.

The bulk of such a fix would be finding the VALID actions that cause an item to get an ID. Quests, monster loot, crafting, and extracting (such as taking a potion from a keg or mining).

With the list of VALID requests, they could simply have it check to see if one of those were the action Requesting an ID, and ignore any others.

Viola! No more duping, ever.

Even if they don't know much about the game, and take all of 2 or 3 hours to figure out Every Valid requestor for IDs, the actual fix would still take less than 4 hours to impliment. For one of them actually familiar with the game, 2 hours tops.

Interesting thought. You mean, they should create kindof a "whitelist" of actions to create an item, and consider everything else illegal.

It sounds simple. However, I have the slight feeling that it isn't that simple in reality. Anyway, we will never know.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

You know back in the day there was no scripters, and there isn't any on Siege, here is why..

With non-static respawns, bots would be slowed down in collecting, have to travel to farm, and increase chances of running into PKers, which means they would need more accounts to collect and in return cost more money. If they had speedy customer support they would need many, many accounts to keep up with demand and whos to say they don't get killed and looted for the money they are trying to send as well. Just more profit loss for those poor gold sellers.

I would suggest however, guards be weakened to a point where you could kill them if this ever happened.

Let's put it this way.. The developers have the resources, they need to take a chance, they can change the game mechanics, at anytime. We need to be given the ability to fight these kind of odds in UO, if the GM's won't.

The only problem with my theory is that the majority of people selling gold in mmos dont farm it, they dupe it, although it may come from bots farming gold as well, but this will work well against scripters..

Seige Perilous is an example of a good economy in UO, the mechanics allow players to fight back against greifers, scripters, spammers, people you hate, bots, and duping does not exist..

I just don't see any other option besides punkbuster, which won't happen anytime soon, besides that, UO is f'ed, unless the game mechanics change back to its sandbox roots..

But as far as scripters go, I think the only way to rid them is if the GM's changed the mechanics, if I could kill and loot every scripter I see, I would, and that would be the end of it, so a BIG tribute to all this cheating, it is sad but true, is Trammel and its ruleset, sorry guys, it is sad but true..

Well, back in the Early Days, there were many other bugs that were exploited by players. I don't know of any duping issues, but players were always very good at finding glitches and abuse them for their own advantage (like stealing items through house walls). In the Early Days, there also were no scripters. But not because there was no Trammel, but rather because there were no technical possibilities to do scripting. I think it was in 1999 when the first UO Hacking Tool was released, which changed PvP massively.

Trammel was a mistake, everybody knows that. But Trammel has nothing to do with scripting and cheating. Removing Trammel would have little impact on scripters. They'll find other ways to achieve their goals.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Trammel go. But it wouldn't solve our scripting/duping problems.

 

[Farsight]

But back in the day, there were scripters. Anyone who hung out in a smithy or tailor shop could tell you how many people wouldn't join in the conversation while they were busy macroing their fancy shirts or ringmail armors for the gold. And nobody could do anything about it since the scripters were either in town or in the middle of a locked house. (Well, people could take care of the locked house macroers, but that took other exploits)

The scripts were definitely not as complex as today's scripts, but they were definitely there.

The way to elimiate scripting is to eliminate the need for scripting (need being a relative term), which can't happen at this point in the game.

The best way to reduce it is to have active GMs who actually understand the game and can do something about it. In other words, as mentioned at the start of this thread, "diligence".

 

[D'Amavir]

It's just a few people with low ethical standards looking to take the easy way out in a virtual game.

Now now, not confuse a different opinion with low ethics. Do tamers have low ethics because their play is a little easier than a pure mages in some aspects? Do pure mages have low ethics because their play is a little easier than a warrior in some aspects? Do vendor shoppers have low ethics because its easier for them to buy from vendors than find or make their own items? I would imagine the answer to each is no.

This is a game, what I do in this game, outside of actual harassment (and no one will convince me that seeing someone unattended macro'ing is in any way harassment), has to do with my enjoyment of the game. Do your own thing, I won't mind. You won't ever hear me dogging you out because you find endless double clicking for several hours of the time while you spend your entire game time doing nothing but mining just so you can finally gm your smithing. If you enjoy it, do it. It won't bother me in the least. And I won't ever dog you out if you enjoy double clicking an npc until the right quest pops up then clicking the make last button over and over till you get the right number of items then digging through your full of items pack to find each item then clicking on each item to make it a quest item then clicking on the npc to turn it in then repeating all day long in the hopes of getting a decent item.

Some people enjoy mind numbing activities, obviously. Some people find them, well, mind numbing. I play this game so that the enjoyment part of my brain is activitated. Not to have my mind numbed. A numb mind does not enjoyment make. At least, not to me.

Bottom line, as stated before, this is a game. A game built for enjoyment. If the game designers can't come up with a system that provides enjoyment for certain activities, those that need to do those activities will seek out ways to curb the tedious nature of them. To me, its the best of both worlds. Those that like mind numbing can have it. Those that don't, aren't forced to suffer it. But, like so many things in this world (religion, politics, etc...) those that like it one way seem to want to go out of their way to make sure that those that like it the other way can't have what they want. Why is that? Those on the other side don't want to inflict their style on anyone. They just want to be able to enjoy the game as they do and let others do the same. To each his own, unless of course your own isn't the same as my own then I will do anything I can to get rid of your own. Which, I guess, means it should actually be said to each my own. Right?

The line is very clearly drawn in the terms of service and the rules of conduct. If you don't approve of where the line is drawn, you can petition to have it moved or even stop playing the game altogether. But it certainly doesn't give you the right (from a game standpoint) to step over it on your own, regardless of how creative or smart or time-saving your methods are.

Why should I petition anything? You might petition to get people you think aren't doing things the same way you are removed but I am the type of person that let's people do what they want. Its nots hurting me in the least. Now, as I stated before, things like duping and unattended resource hording to sell for real money actually impacts the economy which in turn impacts me. That's a different subject completely. But macro'ing to GM a skill that would have very little impact on the game world's economy? Doesn't impact me. Does Player B having GM poisoning by macro'ing really impact you enough for you to go yell to a GM about it more than Player A having GM poisoning from spending a year click click clicking? I wouldn't think so. But like that hard core christian on the street says, that darn atheist is just wrong and should be removed from the world! Ya, I thought so.

Just because EA can't stop bad things from happening 100% of the time doesn't mean they should put less than 100% effort into preventing them. There are certainly steps that can be taken to effectively eliminate the rampant cheating in game.

You are right, having to double click till your wrists are dead is bad. And clearly EA can't stop that or else they would. But, until they can do it, some people will rely on those that can.

And what precedent are you setting if you start allowing a minority of players to steer the development of the game through exploits and game manipulation because they are too lazy to play the game as intended? Pretty soon every game would look like Progress Quest. And where's the fun in that?

Lazy? Or just different from you? Do I call you stupid and mindless because you seem to like mindless tasks like double clicking for hours? Not at all. Its not laziness at all that causes me to want a better system for things like skill gain in this game. I don't have hours and hours to play like some do. So, I should never have the chance to enjoy all aspects of this game because I don't have the time it takes to manually click for hours a day to get high enough skills to get to them? Of course, it goes back to "My way is right and your way is wrong" that is so prevelant on these boards. Trammies hate fellies because they choose a different playstyle than them. Fellies hate trammies because they choose a different playstyle than them. Rp'ers hate non rp'ers because they choose a different playstyle than them. Non rp'ers hate rp'ers because they choose a different playstyle than them. I was foolish to expect anything different. Or was it lazy? I don't know, pick whatever word you want to describe it.

As for precedent, if a minority of the playerbase can get EA to change the mind numbing aspects of the game I say great! After all, it was the majority of people in England that decided to break off from there and form a grand new country called the USA. Right? Majority always rules I say. Or, I don't say. But, you seem to. So, as I stated before, more power to ya. I won't be paging a gm on you for it so enjoy.

 

[Lucy of Kenton]

Im guessing the last round of bannings hasnt improved matters?
sooner or later its a case of just realising that ea/mythic simply dont care if people cheat.
catching the cheaters is v v v simple but has never been actively done.

 

[Connor_Graham]

You sure do spout off a whole lot of stuff without actually saying much of anything. I'll cut through the BS smokescreen and get to the few points in that VERY long waste of server space:

Bottom line, as stated before, this is a game. A game built for enjoyment. If the game designers can't come up with a system that provides enjoyment for certain activities, those that need to do those activities will seek out ways to curb the tedious nature of them.

Yes, this is a game. This game has rules. By breaking them, you're cheating. That's it, period, end of story, the fat lady has sung, and Elvis has left the building. You can use whatever BS you want to try to justify it, but the simple fact of the matter is that if you're doing something the rules specifically say you're not supposed to do, then you're cheating.

To me, its the best of both worlds. Those that like mind numbing can have it. Those that don't, aren't forced to suffer it.

Nobody "likes" clicking 50,000 times to do something. The difference between the ones that do the clicking, and the ones that use an illegal script to do it, is the ones that do the clicking chose to follow the rules of the game that they agreed to follow, while you chose to break them, even though you agreed to follow them too.

But, like so many things in this world (religion, politics, etc...) those that like it one way seem to want to go out of their way to make sure that those that like it the other way can't have what they want.

Your logic here is incorrect. EA wrote the rules, not the players. The players just expect everyone that plays the game to stick to the promise they made when they clicked that "I Accept" button when they first installed the game. By not sticking to that promise, you've gone back on your word.

Why is that? Those on the other side don't want to inflict their style on anyone.

It has nothing to do with some high morality, and everything to do with the fact they just don't want anyone else to know they're cheating.

Its not laziness at all that causes me to want a better system for things like skill gain in this game.

It's more like you don't like the rules so you break them to suit your purpose, even though you agreed to follow them.

Of course, it goes back to "My way is right and your way is wrong"

Uh, you're cheating. Duh.


I'll leave you with this little piece of wisdom:


The biggest test of ethics isn't whether or not a person is willing to cheat others, but whether or not they're willing to cheat themselves.

 

[Jagerstadt]

EA offered us a solution. What was it called? Oh yea...Punkbuster! But a bunch of folks freaked out and swore that the folks at PB could hack their computers and steal their bank acct numbers/other sensitive info that shouldn't be on their pc's in the first place. We need a measure like PB to combat those certain widely known third-party apps that nobody here should be using.

/Jag

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Well, back in the Early Days, there were many other bugs that were exploited by players. I don't know of any duping issues

Umm.

Yeah.

http://www.uo.com/cgi-bin/newstools.pl?Article=2793

-Galen's player

 

[Nexus]

EA offered us a solution. What was it called? Oh yea...Punkbuster! But a bunch of folks freaked out and swore that the folks at PB could hack their computers and steal their bank acct numbers/other sensitive info that shouldn't be on their pc's in the first place. We need a measure like PB to combat those certain widely known third-party apps that nobody here should be using.

/Jag

Punkbuster wouldn't have been a perfect solution either way. There are things it can and can't do, like it could have gotten rid of the most common cheat programs but if say someone in a guild was a programmer and wrote one for himself and distributed it to just his guildmates, Punkbuster wouldn't have been able to recognize it because it wouldn't have any information on it in it's programming. How do I know this? Punkbuster said so on their site I looked it over when they were talking about introducing it to UO.

Trammel was a mistake, everybody knows that. But Trammel has nothing to do with scripting and cheating. Removing Trammel would have little impact on scripters. They'll find other ways to achieve their goals.

Trammel in itself wasn't a mistake, many MMO's have Non-PvP servers which don't have the issues plaguing UO. WoW, EQ, EQ2 are examples. Lack of ways to counteract the environment effects Trammel introduced was and still is one of the largest issues.

As to checking the logs for duped items, I think that's what they are doing for the time being. I also believe that they have a script that will flag the dupes and owners. Once flagged, to avoid mistakes, they will get someone, perhaps a GM look at the flagged accounts.

Coming up with a program to flag these for a GM's attention as you said, is very viable. Incorporating this directly into the server code and auto-delete items could be considered a bit too dangerous though. Until they work out all potential issues and can be sure no mistakes will be made.

If I'm not mistaken I believe I heard them say that they manually check through printouts to try and identify duped items. Why spend Huge amounts of time manually pouring over logs and databases trying to find items when for goodness sake these people are programmers...have a program written you can feed the files into it scans and flags certain items and spits out the info for them to check...It would reduce the hours spent investigating by a ton.

 

[Velvathos]

But back in the day, there were scripters. Anyone who hung out in a smithy or tailor shop could tell you how many people wouldn't join in the conversation while they were busy macroing their fancy shirts or ringmail armors for the gold. And nobody could do anything about it since the scripters were either in town or in the middle of a locked house. (Well, people could take care of the locked house macroers, but that took other exploits)

The scripts were definitely not as complex as today's scripts, but they were definitely there.

The way to elimiate scripting is to eliminate the need for scripting (need being a relative term), which can't happen at this point in the game.

The best way to reduce it is to have active GMs who actually understand the game and can do something about it. In other words, as mentioned at the start of this thread, "diligence".

There is so much the developers could have done to UO back then to improve the current systems already in place, but they were like.. "HEY! Let's go in the complete opposite direction!" Ultima was a extremely well-rounded game pre-aos, there was as much going into the crafting system, as with the combat. Instead of actually improving these system, they nerfed it to oblivion. I will give you an example.

Alignment. It sucks in UO, it hasn't been touched in God knows how long, Anyone can attack anyone. Peraphs towns in UO should have been able to be controlled by the players, and their guilds, The different towns have NPC guards that have orders given to them by the player kings and lords. You can order the guards to attack on sight. The guard hit list can include guild names, individual player names, specific races, alignments, and enemies.

Peraphs a system where you start out with a neutral alignment, and based on your actions, this alignment changes. Turning evil is easy, although it doesn't make for an easy life. Killing other characters unprovoked will get you there fast and this will make most guards, clans and other players attack you on sight. Changing your alignment towards good would be a challenging and difficult process, instead of just burning counts. Killing murderers, monsters, and doing quests etc to change your alignment would bring you back to the "good" side. There should be a alignment chart, of where you are aligned with each town, along with a percentage...

This is for another time though.. Just wanted to talk about how they could have imrpoved things to prevent all kinds of crap from happening like there is today..

They could have stopped griefing, hacking, scripting, exploiting, duping, and all that stuff if they would have just IMPROVED the mechanics already in place, but they completley changed the mechanics instead.

 

[BbqLou]

*sigh*

all the while the 400lb user is eating cheetos, staring at his cat,

Wouldn't it be the other way around? The person who sits there for 10 hours a day trying to GM tailoring the legit way? By clicking all day?


Not the scripter...


And honestly, if you found a dupe and could make thousands of dollars irl off of it from doing basically nothing, you wouldn't jump on the opportunity?

I know I would screw you people and your UO morals!

 

[D'Amavir]

Yes, this is a game. This game has rules. By breaking them, you're cheating. That's it, period, end of story, the fat lady has sung, and Elvis has left the building. You can use whatever BS you want to try to justify it, but the simple fact of the matter is that if you're doing something the rules specifically say you're not supposed to do, then you're cheating.

Indeed. Thanks for clarifying what rules meant. People didn't know that until you explained it to them I am sure. Don't worry about missing the point either. Some people never get it and thats cool with me.

Nobody "likes" clicking 50,000 times to do something. The difference between the ones that do the clicking, and the ones that use an illegal script to do it, is the ones that do the clicking chose to follow the rules of the game that they agreed to follow, while you chose to break them, even though you agreed to follow them too.

Again, people have come up with easy fixes for the flaws of the game. Some people appreciate those fixes, some don't.

Your logic here is incorrect. EA wrote the rules, not the players. The players just expect everyone that plays the game to stick to the promise they made when they clicked that "I Accept" button when they first installed the game. By not sticking to that promise, you've gone back on your word.

Never gave my word about anything in regards to this game. I chose the Accept button because the Don't Accept button seemed to close the game out on me so that I couldn't get in. However, I didn't say anywhere that I would enjoy clicking a million times when a better alternative is available. I accept the rules that they mentioned, sure. As I am sure that everyone that signs their driver's license accepts the speed limit. And no one ever speeds. And the rules for speeding never change. Its always 55mph. Never been changed to 65mph, or even 70mph. Oh wait, it has changed. Guess those minority people that chose to complain about it got something changed. Good for them!

It has nothing to do with some high morality, and everything to do with the fact they just don't want anyone else to know they're cheating.

Someone is hiding something? Who? They should be ashamed.

It's more like you don't like the rules so you break them to suit your purpose, even though you agreed to follow them.

Not all rules should be followed 100%. Some rules are meant to be broken, some are meant to be bent. Some are meant to be changed, and some are changed in fact.

Uh, you're cheating. Duh.

Ok. Ummm, duh? Brilliant comment I must say. Feel better now that you got that literary gem off your chest?

I'll leave you with this little piece of wisdom:


The biggest test of ethics isn't whether or not a person is willing to cheat others, but whether or not they're willing to cheat themselves.

The biggest example of someone that isn't all there is the fact that they look at a game that people play online and consider it life itself. That's just silly. But, some people can't seperate the game world from the real world. Those people are just, well, sad.

In closing, to borrow your so eloquent retort....Duh.

 

[D'Amavir]

I know I would screw you people and your UO morals!

You make it sound like UO is just a game or something. Don't you know that if you do something like use a third party tool to help you cut down on the clicks need to gm that tailoring its the same as if you robbed a bank in real life?

The nerve! Now, let's go back to following every one of those rules. Get all those women back into the kitchen and out of the voting booth, re-establish the monarchy here in these United States of Britain and *won't mention this former RULE that was abolished because it just wasn't humane nor proper even though people on here would support it 100% if was still a rule because rules are always right*.

 

[Lucy of Kenton]

*Applauds Connor Graham*
the cheaters are the same sort of person that buy a console game and go straight to the web for the cheats.
UO is not about instant satisfaction for the kids. when you gm something its nice to get that buzz that you did it rather than waking up in the morning to see it already done.
i found that the people that trained the skill at their keyboard generally use it better.

 

[Connor_Graham]

In other words, you cheat even though you agreed not to, because you had your fingers crossed behind your back when you hit that I Accept button, and to hell with anyone that thinks otherwise. It's everyone else's fault that you cheat, and you'll use any excuse you can to make it appear that EA and all of the other players that aren't cheating are at fault for it.

Ok....Got ya.....


:loser:

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

You make it sound like UO is just a game or something. Don't you know that if you do something like use a third party tool to help you cut down on the clicks need to gm that tailoring its the same as if you robbed a bank in real life?

The nerve! Now, let's go back to following every one of those rules. Get all those women back into the kitchen and out of the voting booth, re-establish the monarchy here in these United States of Britain and *won't mention this former RULE that was abolished because it just wasn't humane nor proper even though people on here would support it 100% if was still a rule because rules are always right*.

This may well be one of the most depressing things I've ever read in these forums.

No matter how low things get, they can always get lower.

People play a game, take the easy way out, and by definition disrupt the game for real players in the process. (I think that scripting's impact is exaggerated. But that it has an impact is 100% undeniable, realistically.)

And you compare them to Revolutionaries or other political rebels, who actually had real, important issues at stake?

Hey, maybe Washington and Jefferson were notorious chess cheats in their day. Maybe Nelson Mandela always used to wear long sleeves when he played poker.

But I doubt it. If they were the type to take the easy path they wouldn't have taken up pens and arms at all.

I'm going to stop now; the fact that someone even raised this as a point to argue is simply too depressing.

-Galen's player

 

[D'Amavir]

In other words, you cheat even though you agreed not to, because you had your fingers crossed behind your back when you hit that I Accept button, and to hell with anyone that thinks otherwise. It's everyone else's fault that you cheat, and you'll use any excuse you can to make it appear that EA and all of the other players that aren't cheating are at fault for it.

Ok....Got ya.....


:loser:

Actually, never said I cheated. I said that some people don't enjoy clicking a million times to do a certain thing in game and that some people have come up with tools that help with that. I also said that if EA would come up with better ways to do things like skill gaining and repetitive tasks and crafting quests that a lot of people that use those tools wouldn't need to.

But, keep going with your 'you cheater you. You do something different from me so you are teh bad!' rant. Its pretty funny and I needed something like that today. Thanks.

 

[D'Amavir]

This may well be one of the most depressing things I've ever read in these forums.

No matter how low things get, they can always get lower.

People play a game, take the easy way out, and by definition disrupt the game for real players in the process. (I think that scripting's impact is exaggerated. But that it has an impact is 100% undeniable, realistically.)

And you compare them to Revolutionaries or other political rebels, who actually had real, important issues at stake?

Hey, maybe Washington and Jefferson were notorious chess cheats in their day. Maybe Nelson Mandela always used to wear long sleeves when he played poker.

But I doubt it. If they were the type to take the easy path they wouldn't have taken up pens and arms at all.

I'm going to stop now; the fact that someone even raised this as a point to argue is simply too depressing.

-Galen's player

Perhaps you can explain then, what impact someone that uses a third party tool to gm poisoning has on you compared to one that does so through endless click click clicking. But, of course, you won't tell me how that has an impact on you. Because it doesnt. But, please, prove me wrong and explain that impact to me.

 

[Nexus]

Perhaps you can explain then, what impact someone that uses a third party tool to gm poisoning has on you compared to one that does so through endless click click clicking. But, of course, you won't tell me how that has an impact on you. Because it doesnt. But, please, prove me wrong and explain that impact to me.

It's not a matter of short term/personal offense it's a matter of looking at the Big Picture. I can do poisoning by hand in 4-5 days...where someone doing it with a script can in less than 2. Magery from bought skill to 120? What does it take a script? 2-3 days?

It's a matter of overall game play balance in game play. There are some who are casual players...others that are power gamers...you have to attempt to balance the two to keep a large social imbalance from happening. There can't be a wide berth between the haves and have nots or the game looses a lot of it's fun factor for people. That's why scripting, duping and other exploitation is such a big issue. If a minority cheats then the game looses it's luster for those that are honest.

 

[D'Amavir]

It's not a matter of short term/personal offense it's a matter of looking at the Big Picture. I can do poisoning by hand in 4-5 days...where someone doing it with a script can in less than 2. Magery from bought skill to 120? What does it take a script? 2-3 days?

It's a matter of overall game play balance in game play. There are some who are casual players...others that are power gamers...you have to attempt to balance the two to keep a large social imbalance from happening. There can't be a wide berth between the haves and have nots or the game looses a lot of it's fun factor for people. That's why scripting, duping and other exploitation is such a big issue. If a minority cheats then the game looses it's luster for those that are honest.

If every one can get to 100 poisoning, how is it killing the game if a scripter gets there in two while a casual player gets there in five? If powergamers that have more time to play can do it in 4, aren't they just as damaging to the game? Or does the 'scripter' label really cause am impact that no one seems to be able to define? I haven't seen it defined yet, and I have been reading about it for 10 years now.

As for 'honest' vs 'cheats', I can't see how one person not liking to click million times is doing any harm by not clicking a million times. But, as usual, no one bothers to even try to explain but instead just tosses out insults. Which, somehow, are allowed by the mods.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Actually, never said I cheated.

Unless "I" and "me" are 2 mice that are in your pocket, yeah, you did.

But I bet you had your fingers crossed again while you were typing this didn't you?

 

[D'Amavir]

Unless "I" and "me" are 2 mice that are in your pocket, yeah, you did.

But I bet you had your fingers crossed again while you were typing this didn't you?

Actually, I seemed to recall usually saying 'If I' as opposed to 'I do' but if I forgot one of those, my bad. Either way, I DO support the fact that SOME PEOPLE came up with SOME WAYS that allowed SOME PEOPLE to avoid having to get carpal tunnel to enjoy the game. And SOME PEOPLE use those alternatives in a way that OTHER PEOPLE complain about without being able to really explain how it impacts them. Then again, SOME PEOPLE are just like that. THEY like to complain about others' actions even if those actions don't really have an impact on them.

As they say, necessity is the mother of invention. If the design of the game didn't have so many flaws then I wouldn't be so supportive of the those that choose to go out of their way to find fixes for those flaws. Flaws in design (necessity) equals ways around those flaws (invention). If you like clicking a million times to do things, more power to ya. I don't enjoy it myself. Thus, I either find a way around it or I just don't take part in it.

Thus, I don't have a legendary tamer. Why? Because its so mind numbing to do. Taming and releasing the same creatures over and over and over....I get mind numbed just explaining it. Imagine having to actually do it? Not fun. But, that takes away that aspect of the game for me while others get to enjoy it. Fair? You will say so I am sure. But, the flaw in the game design is the cause. Not anything else.

 

[UOKaiser]

If every one can get to 100 poisoning, how is it killing the game if a scripter gets there in two while a casual player gets there in five? If powergamers that have more time to play can do it in 4, aren't they just as damaging to the game? Or does the 'scripter' label really cause am impact that no one seems to be able to define? I haven't seen it defined yet, and I have been reading about it for 10 years now.

As for 'honest' vs 'cheats', I can't see how one person not liking to click million times is doing any harm by not clicking a million times. But, as usual, no one bothers to even try to explain but instead just tosses out insults. Which, somehow, are allowed by the mods.

You're correct in my opinion. I mean over all these years people who dont use the ingame macros call those who use the in game macros cheats and Even more so those who dont have uoassit call those with uoassit cheats. I mean if someone enjoys clicking something a million times all for it but let the other person who enjoys clicking macros from uoassist enjoy there way also. This goes back into the age old problem that massive online game whith many diversities and people have the smaller very vocal population state they want everyone in the game to play as they do and only the way they do it.

I remmeber before uoassit The only macros I had to work with was the ingame keys took me ages to gm anything. When powerhour game around I bashed as much as i can do in that short hour for skill gains. Finaly got uassist and the world of UO became brighter whith many options opened to me and the bredom decreased. If I didnt have Uoassist I would just quit foerever. The main thing is to not do anything unattended. I dont think anybody ever got busted doing attended macroing as thats legal and whith the rules to do.

Though I hear people taking rules to a high level though hell i jay walk and thats against the law but not enforced as such. I've done my share of activities that are against US law as everyone has even obsured laws. Just to show I have no right to accuse another as no one is innocent in real life.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Perhaps you can explain then, what impact someone that uses a third party tool to gm poisoning has on you compared to one that does so through endless click click clicking. But, of course, you won't tell me how that has an impact on you. Because it doesnt. But, please, prove me wrong and explain that impact to me.

Let's assign arbitrary numbers to the effort it takes to acquire something.

Effort to get a barbed kit, without scripting: 2.

Effort to get a barbed kit, with scripting: 1.

Now let's arbitrarily assign a number to the intrinsic value of a barbed kit: 3.

I get a barbed kit legitimately. I want to sell it for a value of 3, and effort of 2, for a total of 5.

Only I can't get 5, because a scripter is selling on the basis of effort 1 and value 3, for a total price of 4.

Now let's address duping.

Effort to get a Valorite Hammer, legitimately: 5.
Intrinsic value: 5.
My Total: 10.

Effort to dupe a Valorite Hammer: 1. (The 1 accounts for the price of purchasing an earned one to dupe. It's probably closer to 0.)
Intrinsic value: 5.
Their Total: 6.

Difference between My Total and Their Total: 4.

*shrugs* It's not hard, just basic math.

Lots of people exaggerate the impact of scripting. That doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact. That it has an impact is rationally undeniable. There is no reasonable argument that it has no impact. There is, however, a reasonable argument that its impact has been overstated by many.

Duping.....Is just that much worse. Harder to overstate the impact of large-scale duping.

-Galen's player

 

[D'Amavir]

You're correct in my opinion. I mean over all these years people who dont use the ingame macros call those who use the in game macros cheats and Even more so those who dont have uoassit call those with uoassit cheats. I mean if someone enjoys clicking something a million times all for it but let the other person who enjoys clicking macros from uoassist enjoy there way also. This goes back into the age old problem that massive online game whith many diversities and people have the smaller very vocal population state they want everyone in the game to play as they do and only the way they do it.

I remmeber before uoassit The only macros I had to work with was the ingame keys took me ages to gm anything. When powerhour game around I bashed as much as i can do in that short hour for skill gains. Finaly got uassist and the world of UO became brighter whith many options opened to me and the bredom decreased. If I didnt have Uoassist I would just quit foerever. The main thing is to not do anything unattended. I dont think anybody ever got busted doing attended macroing as thats legal and whith the rules to do.

Though I hear people taking rules to a high level though hell i jay walk and thats against the law but not enforced as such. I've done my share of activities that are against US law as everyone has even obsured laws. Just to show I have no right to accuse another as no one is innocent in real life.

Not saying you said this, but no where did I say that I supported unattended macro'ing. Be it through a third party tool, a penny taped to a key or that little bird filled with water that Homer used to keep the nuclear power plant pressure down in the Simpson's. Now, I don't find a major problem with it personally. I don't report people I think are gaining skills while unattended. But, that's just me. I am more of the live and let live type about things that really don't affect me.

 

[D'Amavir]

Let's assign arbitrary numbers to the effort it takes to acquire something.

Effort to get a barbed kit, without scripting: 2.

Effort to get a barbed kit, with scripting: 1.

Now let's arbitrarily assign a number to the intrinsic value of a barbed kit: 3.

I get a barbed kit legitimately. I want to sell it for a value of 3, and effort of 2, for a total of 5.

Only I can't get 5, because a scripter is selling on the basis of effort 1 and value 3, for a total price of 4.

Now let's address duping.

Effort to get a Valorite Hammer, legitimately: 5.
Intrinsic value: 5.
My Total: 10.

Effort to dupe a Valorite Hammer: 1. (The 1 accounts for the price of purchasing an earned one to dupe. It's probably closer to 0.)
Intrinsic value: 5.
Their Total: 6.

Difference between My Total and Their Total: 4.

*shrugs* It's not hard, just basic math.

Lots of people exaggerate the impact of scripting. That doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact. That it has an impact is rationally undeniable. There is no reasonable argument that it has no impact. There is, however, a reasonable argument that its impact has been overstated by many.

Duping.....Is just that much worse. Harder to overstate the impact of large-scale duping.

-Galen's player

Are you just quoting me but talking to someone else? Or did you read something into my word's when I said that I don't support duping and/or scripted resource gathering? By ' I don't' what I meant to say was I don't. Better for you?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Are you just quoting me but talking to someone else? Or did you read something into my word's when I said that I don't support duping and/or scripted resource gathering? By ' I don't' what I meant to say was I don't. Better for you?

*sighs*

You said:

Perhaps you can explain then, what impact someone that uses a third party tool to gm poisoning has on you compared to one that does so through endless click click clicking. But, of course, you won't tell me how that has an impact on you. Because it doesnt. But, please, prove me wrong and explain that impact to me.

I took this to mean "explain to me how scripting effects you." (I assumed no one could possibly express such a narrow concern and mean it literally.)

So I explained it.

Or are you telling me that your concern is so narrow you're literally only concerned about the case of the poisoning skill? If so, your activity in this thread is way our of proportion to that one concern.

-Galen's player

 

[D'Amavir]

*sighs*

You said:



I took this to mean "explain to me how scripting effects you." (I assumed no one could possibly express such a narrow concern and mean it literally.)

Like you, I will assume. I assume that since you couldn't address the question that I asked, you are accepting that my argument supporting scripting for skill gain is valid and correct. I took 'explain to me how using scripting to gm poisoning' to mean 'explain to me how using scripting to gm poisoning' since my entire part of this thread has been my support of using tools to cut down on the mind numbing nature of certain skill training. You can take that clear concept however you want, of course. But, the fact remains, I asked one thing and you answered something completely different.

So I explained it.

Or are you telling me that your concern is so narrow you're literally only concerned about the case of the poisoning skill? If so, your activity in this thread is way our of proportion to that one concern.

-Galen's player

I will open it up for you then, let's include poisoning, and peacemaking, and provocation, and taming, and healing, and *insert skill name here that requires a lot of button clicking for minimum gain*. I wouldn't say that was a indication of my activity being out of proportion. I would say it was more a case of you looking for an argument but failing to actually be able to argue the subject at hand so you went outside that argument to instead argue another matter that I (specifically I since I was the one you quoted when you began your failed attempt to make a point) was never even discussing.

Read back. You should find that I clearly stated early on that I don't support duping or scripted resource gathering for either real money or in game money as both clearly impact the economy. However, if you dig out a quote that you can take out of context to try to show that I did support those two, then more power to ya. I guess my clearly saying over and over that I don't support that is just overlooked in your zeal to prove yourself right regarding a topic that the person you are quoting isn't even interested in. Good job, mate!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Like you, I will assume. I assume that since you couldn't address the question that I asked, you are accepting that my argument supporting scripting for skill gain is valid and correct. I took 'explain to me how using scripting to gm poisoning' to mean 'explain to me how using scripting to gm poisoning' since my entire part of this thread has been my support of using tools to cut down on the mind numbing nature of certain skill training. You can take that clear concept however you want, of course. But, the fact remains, I asked one thing and you answered something completely different.



I will open it up for you then, let's include poisoning, and peacemaking, and provocation, and taming, and healing, and *insert skill name here that requires a lot of button clicking for minimum gain*. I wouldn't say that was a indication of my activity being out of proportion. I would say it was more a case of you looking for an argument but failing to actually be able to argue the subject at hand so you went outside that argument to instead argue another matter that I (specifically I since I was the one you quoted when you began your failed attempt to make a point) was never even discussing.

Read back. You should find that I clearly stated early on that I don't support duping or scripted resource gathering for either real money or in game money as both clearly impact the economy. However, if you dig out a quote that you can take out of context to try to show that I did support those two, then more power to ya. I guess my clearly saying over and over that I don't support that is just overlooked in your zeal to prove yourself right regarding a topic that the person you are quoting isn't even interested in. Good job, mate!

I never said you supported anything. You asked a question and I answered.

The same principles described in my post can be applied to skill gain, and the benefits that come from having a high skill in, well, pretty much anything. Yes, even Poisoning!

*shrugs* Scripting's mostly the manufacturer's fault, in a lot of ways...But that's a discussion for another day.

-Galen's player

 

[D'Amavir]

I never said you supported anything. You asked a question and I answered.

The same principles described in my post can be applied to skill gain, and the benefits that come from having a high skill in, well, pretty much anything. Yes, even Poisoning!

*shrugs* Scripting's mostly the manufacturer's fault, in a lot of ways...But that's a discussion for another day.

-Galen's player

So one person who scripted poisoning makes you have fewer runic hammers? Ok then. If you could show that someone actually benefited OVER YOU by gm'ing a skill that you manually clicked to do, maybe. But you haven't even attempted to show that. Which is what I said would be the case when I first asked the question.

I agree, scripting to cut down on the mind numbing nature of certain skill gain is 100% the manufacturer's fault. As I have stated several times, if EA would fix their flaws in regards to carpal tunnel inducing activities, then there would be at least one less supporter of those that find ways around those carpal tunnel inducing activities.

 

[UOKaiser]

Im curious what would happened if in the SG client they put a major scripting tool and removed the unattended scipting rule from there TOS. What do you think would happened? Everyone might be on even terms again or maybe Uo will crumble or maybe nothing changes cause most of UO does it anyway or More players start playing Uo or maybe less what do you think? Remmeber duping,exploits, and unattended scripting are completly different things to one another.

 

[D'Amavir]

Im curious what would happened if in the SG client they put a major scripting tool and removed the unattended scipting rule from there TOS. What do you think would happened? Everyone might be on even terms again or maybe Uo will crumble or maybe nothing changes cause most of UO does it anyway or More players start playing Uo or maybe less what do you think?

I doubt much would change really. Those that choose to use the tools would and those that choose not to wouldn't. Just like with UOA. Back in the day, for those that were actually there for it and didn't just go back and read a recap, people were coming out of the woodwork saying that the macro's allowed by UOA would 'ruin' UO and that the devs had to put a stop to it. Well, as you can see, that didn't happen.

I would imagine that those people that whine about unattended macro'ers would still whine about it if it was legal. The rule against it is just something handy that they use to cover their hatred of something that they personally don't believe in.

Its not the first time something like that has happened in UO. Those that were against pk'ing are still against it now even though Trammel is available to them. Those that were against UOA are still against it even though its fully supported and soon to be integrated with UO. Two different sides to the same 'you do things differently from me and my way is right' coin.

 

[Nexus]

If every one can get to 100 poisoning, how is it killing the game if a scripter gets there in two while a casual player gets there in five? If powergamers that have more time to play can do it in 4, aren't they just as damaging to the game? Or does the 'scripter' label really cause am impact that no one seems to be able to define? I haven't seen it defined yet, and I have been reading about it for 10 years now.

As for 'honest' vs 'cheats', I can't see how one person not liking to click million times is doing any harm by not clicking a million times. But, as usual, no one bothers to even try to explain but instead just tosses out insults. Which, somehow, are allowed by the mods.

Turn around and use those same programs to script mine, farm gold, collect and fill bods...Now you have a wider range of impact. Now a afk Bot can do in a day what a person sitting there clicking can't because of time constants. While your personal example of poisoning might not have as huge an impact, it's based on the same theory and application of a program as the one's that are doing harm. It's still a matter of stepping back and looking at he Large Picture and not being so narrow minded as to only consider how it effects your personal play. You honestly don't think scripts have a negative impact on game play? What about when you and your mates are at a champ spawn and the raiding guild is using a healer script..they don't have to focus on their health the program does it for them while you have to watch everything, unfair advantage to the scripter. How about resource gathering? Say you have 4 hours a day to play a script had 6 times that, they can out gather and undercut any price you want to sell resources at because there is no impact on their "quality" time. Your wanting to work at getting a good BOD reward so you can make armor to sell. You have to manually collect BODS and Fill them, a Script can do it easier and faster and once again it doesn't effect that players "quality" play time as they are probably dual clienting. Gold Farming...yea you could do it if you only have that 4 hours lets say you gather 2 million in that time, the Bot running a Heal Script and one to bank the gold it auto loots can collect 12million without the player loosing "quality" play time doing what they enjoy. Simply put rules were put in place to keep the large scale impact out of play and if your violating the rule based for small time things it doesn't matter. Scripts let a player take advantage of TIME be it that split second to chug a pot, toss on a bandage, or to recast a interrupted heal/cure spell, or time spent gathering resources/gold. That's one of the issues that's a major factor in the games economy being so out of wack.

Try out Siege..Scripting is minimal there, want to know one of the big differences? I can buy a Full Barbed Leather Suit with Decent resists and some mods for 25k. On Chessy for a decent single piece I'm looking at close to a mil, granted standards on what makes a good suit are different there but the principle is the same, large scale scripting, by a select few causes a minority to have a major impact on a shards economy. Just because your established in the game doesn't mean the guy that opened his first UO account 2 days ago is. Inflation is a negative impact on new players, and UO's overall growth.

Now here's the thing about it being a rule...They can't morally pick and choose who it applies too. Use a Script and get caught...Ban...that's only fair regardless of how extreme the usage was. Asking or Expecting it to be otherwise is like Holding up a Store to get money to Feed your Family. Yes I can understand why it was done but that wouldn't make it right.

 

[RoycroftLS]

Now now, not confuse a different opinion with low ethics. Do tamers have low ethics because their play is a little easier than a pure mages in some aspects? Do pure mages have low ethics because their play is a little easier than a warrior in some aspects? Do vendor shoppers have low ethics because its easier for them to buy from vendors than find or make their own items? I would imagine the answer to each is no.

None of those examples you have given break any of the rules of the game. This isn't a discussion about playing the game optimally, it's about playing the game within its given set of rules.

This is a game, what I do in this game, outside of actual harassment (and no one will convince me that seeing someone unattended macro'ing is in any way harassment), has to do with my enjoyment of the game. Do your own thing, I won't mind.

Some people find them, well, mind numbing. I play this game so that the enjoyment part of my brain is activitated. Not to have my mind numbed. A numb mind does not enjoyment make. At least, not to me.

If you don't care if people choose to play the game as it is designed, why are you making such a big uproar about it? Why are you trying to distract people from the simple point that playing the game within the rules is okay, and playing the game outside the rules is not?

Bottom line, as stated before, this is a game. A game built for enjoyment. If the game designers can't come up with a system that provides enjoyment for certain activities, those that need to do those activities will seek out ways to curb the tedious nature of them.

Seeing as you keep missing my point, let me boldface it for you. No player has the right to break any rules at any time. If you don't like the rules, you have two options: Ask for the rules to be changed, or stop playing. No matter how eloquently you put it, or how justified you feel your actions are, breaking the rules is CHEATING, plain and simple.

But macro'ing to GM a skill that would have very little impact on the game world's economy? Doesn't impact me. Does Player B having GM poisoning by macro'ing really impact you enough for you to go yell to a GM about it more than Player A having GM poisoning from spending a year click click clicking?

Just because every single rule infraction doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean that the rule shouldn't be enforced, or make the rule any less valid.

By your logic you could eliminate every rule in the game. Someone on a different server calls another person by a racial slur? Doesn't impact you. Someone keeps spamming the URL of an exploit website in game? If they aren't in your house, it doesn't impact you.

If even one person is negatively affected by someone breaking the rule, then the rule has merit. And macroing any skill definitely devalues the effort taken by the people to raise the skill normally, regardless of how dumb you think it was for them to spend hours clicking repetitively.

 

[D'Amavir]

Turn around and use those same programs to script mine, farm gold, collect and fill bods...Now you have a wider range of impact. Now a afk Bot can do in a day what a person sitting there clicking can't because of time constants.

Agreed. I have said several times that things like resource hoarding and using those resources in a way that affects the economy is not something I support.

While your personal example of poisoning might not have as huge an impact, it's based on the same theory and application of a program as the one's that are doing harm. It's still a matter of stepping back and looking at he Large Picture and not being so narrow minded as to only consider how it effects your personal play. You honestly don't think scripts have a negative impact on game play?

No, I don't think my 'scripts', if I used any, would have any impact on game play. I don't do champ spawns, ever. I don't pvp, ever. I don't do the popular pvm monsters (never done a peerless, never gone to Doom, etc...). Basically, I RP my entire time in game. If my desire to wear items with my name on them while I stand around player run cities (thus maybe having GM Smithing or GM Tailoring) or having a title that says I am a GM Assassin (thus maybe having a GM Poisoner) really impacts your gameplay, then I don't know what to tell you.

Now here's the thing about it being a rule...They can't morally pick and choose who it applies too. Use a Script and get caught...Ban...that's only fair regardless of how extreme the usage was. Asking or Expecting it to be otherwise is like Holding up a Store to get money to Feed your Family. Yes I can understand why it was done but that wouldn't make it right.

Actually, here is the thing about a rule. Sometimes it shouldn't be one. I am a firm believer that rules should be made to prevent things from negatively impacting other people. I don't believe in the seat belt law, for example. Someone not wearing a seatbelt has zero impact on me. Why force someone to do it? If they don't care enough about themselves then why make laws to protect them?

 

[Nexus]

Agreed. I have said several times that things like resource hoarding and using those resources in a way that affects the economy is not something I support.

At least we agree on this.

No, I don't think my 'scripts', if I used any, would have any impact on game play. I don't do champ spawns, ever. I don't pvp, ever. I don't do the popular pvm monsters (never done a peerless, never gone to Doom, etc...). Basically, I RP my entire time in game. If my desire to wear items with my name on them while I stand around player run cities (thus maybe having GM Smithing or GM Tailoring) or having a title that says I am a GM Assassin (thus maybe having a GM Poisoner) really impacts your gameplay, then I don't know what to tell you.

Just because yours might not means it should be allowed? The easiest way to correct an issue is to make a Law or Rule against it so there is a means and standard of punishment for violation. Yes Laws and Rules can be changed but sometimes not changing them is best even if it does negatively effect a few.

Actually, here is the thing about a rule. Sometimes it shouldn't be one. I am a firm believer that rules should be made to prevent things from negatively impacting other people. I don't believe in the seat belt law, for example. Someone not wearing a seatbelt has zero impact on me. Why force someone to do it? If they don't care enough about themselves then why make laws to protect them?

But you just agreed using scripts to resource horde and farm gold was a negative impact? Now your saying the Rule should pick and choose, based on that impact and not on the root cause...That's not a fair system it's a biased one that will only result in more issues as time goes on as people point the finger at each other and say "But they are allowed to do it".

 

[D'Amavir]

None of those examples you have given break any of the rules of the game. This isn't a discussion about playing the game optimally, it's about playing the game within its given set of rules.

As I stated, no everyone agrees that the given set of rules make a lot of sense considering the design flaws of the game.

If you don't care if people choose to play the game as it is designed, why are you making such a big uproar about it? Why are you trying to distract people from the simple point that playing the game within the rules is okay, and playing the game outside the rules is not?

Stating an opinion on a thread that asked people for their opinion is a big uproar? I guess for those that don't want to hear any opinions other than their own that might be the case.

Seeing as you keep missing my point, let me boldface it for you. No player has the right to break any rules at any time. If you don't like the rules, you have two options: Ask for the rules to be changed, or stop playing. No matter how eloquently you put it, or how justified you feel your actions are, breaking the rules is CHEATING, plain and simple.

Really? I see more options than that. I can click a million times to do something, choose to skip that part of the game altogether, use a tool to cut down the carpal tunnel aspects or quit the game altogether. And yes, breaking a rule is breaking a rule. But, as stated several times, some rules are just not fitting. Especially 'game' rules. And especially especially those rules that are made to prevent things that really don't impact anyone else.

Just because every single rule infraction doesn't affect you personally doesn't mean that the rule shouldn't be enforced, or make the rule any less valid.

Affect me or affect anyone you mean. Since no one has been able to show how gm'ing a skill using a script has actually impacted their game play. And you won't be able to either. But you are free to try. Unlike you, I am open to hear other opinions.

By your logic you could eliminate every rule in the game. Someone on a different server calls another person by a racial slur?

Maybe you should read up where I said that things like harassment, that actually DO impact others, are definitely things that should have rules associated with them. Then again, if you haven't been able to read that yet, you won't be able to the next time your eyes glaze over it. So why bother.

Someone keeps spamming the URL of an exploit website in game? If they aren't in your house, it doesn't impact you.

If only they would invent an ignore function, I could put them on ignore so that the spamming wouldn't even be seen by those that didn't want to see it. Man, that would be nice,huh?

If even one person is negatively affected by someone breaking the rule, then the rule has merit. And macroing any skill definitely devalues the effort taken by the people to raise the skill normally, regardless of how dumb you think it was for them to spend hours clicking repetitively.

If you let someone else's skill level devalue anything you do, then maybe online gaming isn't for you. Don't feel bad, its not for everyone. Personally, nothing you do can devalue me in the least. You do what you want to do, and I will keep my same value. As for thinking anyone dumb, don't believe I ever expressed that opinion. I said several times that people that enjoy click click clicking over and over are free to do so in my world. Unlike so people, I don't get worked up about things that people do that don't necessarily match what I do.

But, as I said before, don't let the actual words I use get in the way of your rant. Keep on going with it and make up things as you see fit that you can claim I said or meant or thought or whichever. Won't devalue me in the least.

 

[D'Amavir]

Just because yours might not means it should be allowed? The easiest way to correct an issue is to make a Law or Rule against it so there is a means and standard of punishment for violation. Yes Laws and Rules can be changed but sometimes not changing them is best even if it does negatively effect a few.

The quickest way to prevent drunk driving is to ban all driving. Lets do it! Horses for everyone!

But you just agreed using scripts to resource horde and farm gold was a negative impact? Now your saying the Rule should pick and choose, based on that impact and not on the root cause...That's not a fair system it's a biased one that will only result in more issues as time goes on as people point the finger at each other and say "But they are allowed to do it".

Are you saying that those that are able to spend 12+ hours in game gathering resources should be banned because they can get more resources than those that only have 1 hour to play a day? Since, the root cause as you see it is someone being able to have more resources than someone else, let's be sure to ban anyone that can get more resources than anyone else. Isn't that how your rule mindset works? Root cause vs impact right? I surely can look at the 'many hours gaming' player and say that they are allowed to have more things in game than me since I only have a limited number of hours to play.

So now we have to put limits on game time since some people have more time available than others. And we have to ban runics altogether because some people have more time/resources to work bods. And we have to limit people to one account each because those that have multi accounts can do more than those with only one. Sounds like a good direction to me. Much better than just fixing the problem with the game design. After all, why improve the game when we can get people to support a carpal inducing design just by telling them that the 'rules' say they have to do it that way?

 

[RoycroftLS]

If every one can get to 100 poisoning, how is it killing the game if a scripter gets there in two while a casual player gets there in five? If powergamers that have more time to play can do it in 4, aren't they just as damaging to the game? Or does the 'scripter' label really cause am impact that no one seems to be able to define? I haven't seen it defined yet, and I have been reading about it for 10 years now.

As for 'honest' vs 'cheats', I can't see how one person not liking to click million times is doing any harm by not clicking a million times. But, as usual, no one bothers to even try to explain but instead just tosses out insults. Which, somehow, are allowed by the mods.

Consider two people, identical in every way, except one person chooses to macro poisoning (player A), and one person chooses to do it the intended way (player B).

They both come home after a day of work and choose to raise their poisoning skill. Player A comes home, turns on his macro, and player B comes home and starts clicking. Now, if Player A sits there and attentively watches his character, then yeah, there isn't much difference between him and Player B other than one person is clicking and one person isn't.

But in reality, Player A probably gets up and gets something to drink, or answers the phone, or goes to the bathroom and forgets to turn the macro off. Oops. Player B would have to stop playing to do any of those things, so Player A now has a slim advantage in skill gained.

Player A comes back, and realizes that nothing bad has happened while he was gone, and concludes that he doesn't have to watch his screen very closely. Just be in the same room and glance over every once in a while. Player A can now be gaining skill while watching TV, paying his bills, reading to his kids, whatever. Player B has to stop playing to do any of those things. Since Player A can be doing two things at once, he can gain more skill per day than Player B.

So Player A completes his training in 3 days, and it takes Player B 10 days. That's seven days of Player A hunting, gathering, selling, or otherwise getting far ahead of Player B. That means player B is at a disadvantage for playing the game normally.

Now, that's just one limited scenario. What's to stop Player A from macroing unattended, or expanding his macroing to other areas of the game once he sees how easy and useful it was for poisoning?

 

[Evilminion]

Although I'm well aware that the game-code arms race between devs and hackers will never truly be won, it does seem as though a few things could be done on the GM side of things to help out.

1) Prioritize scripter reports, or even have a seperate queue and dedicated GM just for that.

2) GM ability to check item IDs and verify dupes on the fly.

3) Proactive GM sweeps through Luna and other vendor towns.

Of course, this would require adding extra staff, but it seems like a good step towards discouraging scripting and dupes.

 

[Nexus]

Are you saying that those that are able to spend 12+ hours in game gathering resources should be banned because they can get more resources than those that only have 1 hour to play a day? Since, the root cause as you see it is someone being able to have more resources than someone else, let's be sure to ban anyone that can get more resources than anyone else. Isn't that how your rule mindset works? Root cause vs impact right? I surely can look at the 'many hours gaming' player and say that they are allowed to have more things in game than me since I only have a limited number of hours to play.

So now we have to put limits on game time since some people have more time available than others. And we have to ban runics altogether because some people have more time/resources to work bods. And we have to limit people to one account each because those that have multi accounts can do more than those with only one. Sounds like a good direction to me. Much better than just fixing the problem with the game design. After all, why improve the game when we can get people to support a carpal inducing design just by telling them that the 'rules' say they have to do it that way?

If you have 12+ hours a day to do it manually that's fine go ahead but if your running a Bot, while dual clienting and playing a character on another account...then No that's not alright. It's not a matter of what resources you acquire it's that you get the reward (resources/bod rewards/gold) proper for the amount of work you actually sit there and do in game. Scripts do not result in a proper reward vs time vested experience, they are rarely attended which is the same as afk macroing so no time is actually vested by the player...Your saying that they should get the reward without doing any of the work.

Now it's not up to us to decide what the proper reward vs time is, it's the developers they decide what they feel is best for the overall game play. Nothing we can do will change that we don't own Mythic, we don't set the rules but if we want to play on their service then we might as well sit down and recognize that there are penalties that they decide on for violating the rules they deemed best for the game.

You mentioned the Seat belt laws...The government said "Wear your seat belt it's the law" and you decide you don't agree with it..fine don't wear one but don't come complaining when you get a ticket. You didn't make the law, you may not have supported the law but you better obey it or pay the penalty that's your only 2 options. OSI, EA, EA/Mythic and now Mythic have always said "No non-approved 3rd party programs". They did this for a reason they aren't stupid they knew just like the politicians that made the seat belt law that not everyone would agree or follow it but for the overall whole its a better decision. I understand why they did it I used to not agree with the seat belt law but I followed it. When I got in an accident and rolled my car 3 1/2 times and walked away without a scratch it was because of the seat belt.

Just because I didn't agree with it didn't mean it wasn't the best thing for me, same thing here...just because you don't agree with the no script what so ever policy, your opinions may not be what's best for the whole of UO.

 

[AesSedai]

How illegally scripting skill gains has had an affect on every UO player:

It has cost us valuable Dev time.
First there was 8x8 (Dev resources).
Then there was Power hour (Dev resources).
Now, there have been statements made by Devs that they know skill gains need to be reevaluated (Dev resources).

If you make and use a legal script (via UO, KR, or UOA), then I am not talking about those methods.
But in order to combat illegal scripting methods (which is against the rules), every single player has lost precious hours of Dev time.
Then consider how much CSR (GM) time has been spent because people have been breaking the rules (& I'm only referring to this seemingly harmless act of skill gain). And please, please do not try to blame it on the people trying to help enforce the rules and improve the overall game (UO) community. It is not against the rules to try to improve the game that we are all involved in.
Then consider that the rule is in place, and has not been removed, for a reason (didn't somebody mention Progress Quest up above..?).

---

If you disagree with the rules then you can petition for them to be changed to your liking or you can cheat and risk suffering the consequences.

Have you ever met anyone that enjoys playing any type of game with someone else that breaks the rules because they have decided decide that playing the game by the rules is too hard for them?
That's another reason why using illegal scripts to gain skills is not a harmless activity.
What I mean is that as harmless as some feel it is to break some rules they do not agree with, it is not harmless because it does not promote to the overall quality and /or future of a game (like UO, in this instance).

You don't like the rules? No problem. Ask / petition for changes, or do not play, or cheat and do not get upset if you eventually lose your account(s).

 

[D'Amavir]

Consider two people, identical in every way, except one person chooses to macro poisoning (player A), and one person chooses to do it the intended way (player B).

They both come home after a day of work and choose to raise their poisoning skill. Player A comes home, turns on his macro, and player B comes home and starts clicking. Now, if Player A sits there and attentively watches his character, then yeah, there isn't much difference between him and Player B other than one person is clicking and one person isn't.

But in reality, Player A probably gets up and gets something to drink, or answers the phone, or goes to the bathroom and forgets to turn the macro off. Oops. Player B would have to stop playing to do any of those things, so Player A now has a slim advantage in skill gained.

Player A comes back, and realizes that nothing bad has happened while he was gone, and concludes that he doesn't have to watch his screen very closely. Just be in the same room and glance over every once in a while. Player A can now be gaining skill while watching TV, paying his bills, reading to his kids, whatever. Player B has to stop playing to do any of those things. Since Player A can be doing two things at once, he can gain more skill per day than Player B.

So Player A completes his training in 3 days, and it takes Player B 10 days. That's seven days of Player A hunting, gathering, selling, or otherwise getting far ahead of Player B. That means player B is at a disadvantage for playing the game normally.

Now, that's just one limited scenario. What's to stop Player A from macroing unattended, or expanding his macroing to other areas of the game once he sees how easy and useful it was for poisoning?

In that case, all macro's should be removed. I can create a certain macro in UO itself that allows me to train a skill without being attended. So, using your logic, all macros should be removed because there is a possibility for it to be abused. The same can be said for anything really. Drugs used for pain relief. Can be abused. Get rid of them. Booze. Can be abused. Get rid of it. Guns. Can be abused. Get rid of them. Sticks can be used to hit people. Get rid of them. And so on and so on.

If EA can't come up with a way to limit unattended macro'ing without damaging those that macro attended only then maybe they need to try a little harder instead of just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.