Greater Dragons Damage Output in PVP is INSANE

[galefan2004]

they dont need to spend 100% of thier time developing SP, all they need to do when they make something new for the game is take 10 min outa thier time and ask themselves, Is this good for SP, a shard that mostly made for pvp/pking. if not then dont send the file to sp!

and i said mostly, i know not everyone on SP are into pvp... but most the shard is here for the risks

I will agree there, but the poster I was responding to and many other SP players I have responded to have taken the stance that EA should spend their time actively developing for SP. I can see considering them when introducing new content, but other than maybe a few little SP only bug fixes I can't see them actually developing for SP.

The problem is that GDs are already here, so at this point its a bigger can of worms to just take them away then to just let things go.

 

[Uvtha]

I see your points, and I have to say...

what it seems like you are saying is your idea of fun is more important than everyone else's idea of fun..

secondly.. your idea of a good template is more important that someone else's idea of a good template....

and third... your idea of ganking 3 on 1 is more important than a ganking of 2 tamer v 1?

Pot.. Kettle on line 3....

1) No, its quite the opposite. What I'm saying that the one type of person who dominates people on our shard has THEIR fun put ahead of everyone else. A minority using a blatant game imbalance due to the fact that the programmers do no adjust things to match our shard rule set is ruining the fun of everyone else.
But yes I guess to be fair, I am an advocate of a game that limits abusive set ups that cause lots of unfair advantages, and rather tries to use balance to give people reason to have or not have power, and on top of all of it have the individual skill of the player not the character be the real deciding factor. But then again anyone who favors anything could be accused of the same thing, so its pretty much a silly accusation.

2) There's a difference in my idea of a good template, and one that is effective. We all know what skills are more usefull in pvp and pvm than others. Taste Id is going to be less useful than swordsmanship. And thats beside the point. My real point was that the idea that a person must use 2/7 (or more) of their total skill points on skill they have no desire to use, and are only effective against ONE tactic, to even begin to try to deal with ONE type of template, and the said template that is the cause of it has absolutely no draw back or restrictions and STILL is considerably more effective, is wrong.

3) I don't care for ganking in any form, I don't even pvp. My point which I fail to believe you missed, is that like them or not, ganks happen, and that when you gank with any tactic OTHER than super dragons, then player skill plays a large part in the action. What I was saying is that by virtue of their playing skill a single person can beat 3-4 less skilled combatants (I've seen it done on many occasions) who try to "gank" them but on the other hand, if even 2 dragons are the ganking force, the single person has two choices: Run or die. Period. That is beyond stupid.

And like was said, It really just seems like you are just trying to play devils advocate here, and whatever that's fine, but I don't see the point.

Why do so many of the posts complaining about GDs bring up 2 Tamer+GDs vs 1, or a Tamer+GD and ABC archer vs 1, etc?
Why is it these posters have no friends when every single tamer they meet seems to have one?

PvP used to be fun because it was a challenge to adjust tactics to each new type of opponent. But these days it seems to be all about crying for nerfs to keep your gimplate on top of the power scale.

My LS PvP Mage (scribe/weave/mage) has yet to die to a GD tamer. And I am not a serious PvPer by any means.
That and the rarity of even seeing them is a good indicator that they are balanced - or underpowered - for blue shards.

It is entirely another matter on SP though.


And the casting off-screen and through walls is not a Taming issue, it is an issue with all spellcasting NPCs. And the game consider pets as NPC hirelings.
It is something we have asked for some time to have fixed, but I can't find a single Dev responce to the problem.
Not saying there aren't responces somewhere, I just haven't been able to dig them up.

Yes, well I for one, as a siege player (when I can get on to UO at all) am laboring under the impression that this whole thread (which should have been called greater dragon sucks on siege or something of that nature because many people are not even reading the bodies of the text I'm betting) is about how super dragons are imbalanced on siege.
I really doubt they are nearly as big a problem or a problem at all on prodo
shards, because I realize the foolish path they chose for the game requires a constant ramping up of player power every year, demanding pets like this (and worse no doubt will come) be introduced.
But on siege, as you say, the are a problem. They really really are.

As for the casting with out LoS or from screens away being a taming issue, this is true. But the S. Dragon would still be too powerful on siege even if that were fixed.

I'm confused. How do you have Trammies on a shard with out Trammel? I can understand the "insult" on a production server but COME ON you guys don't even have Trammel.

Why I even bother to respond to this I dont know.. but here we go anyway.

Sir. Its already been addressed about 1034849034 times. Its an insult. People came to siege to get away from the trammel path of game development, since the idea is loathsome to us. So when someone comes along using a no risk (See: Trammel) cheapo tactic, then it gets called by some more abrasive members of the community a "trammie" tactic. It's not so hard to understand.

It seems like players of SP will not be happy until the developers spend 100% of their time developing exclusively for SP. Of course, if the developers spent 100% of their time developing for SP this game would have like 100 players left.

By 100% you must mean more than .0005%. They don't have to develop anything for us, all they need to do is realize that when they come up with some ludicrous game addition like a super dragon, to just check it off of the spawn list on siege. We arent asking for 100% of the dev teams time, the only thing we ask for is that they just remember that our shard even exists, and quit screwing it over again and again by dumping the game changes designed for a player base that on average is vastly better equipped, on us.
All it would take, is to keep us in mind, which I'm sure in your eyes would be too much to ask.

 

[Spree]

Just delete all greater dragons from Siege problem solved. They can play with their over powered dragons on Trammy shards. No nerf and every one is happy.

 

[Draxous]

Btw prodo kids.. Even if this isnt a problem on prodo or anyother shards.. that isnt the issue here.. Its a huge problem on siege, end of story.

It seems like players of SP will not be happy until the developers spend 100% of their time developing exclusively for SP. Of course, if the developers spent 100% of their time developing for SP this game would have like 100 players left.

You mean the piddly amount of time they've spent on our shard has you jealous?

Could give a flipping **** about your opinion here because it's serving no purpose other than to tell paying customers who prefer a different playstyle than you that you are somehow more important than they are.

Siege has had 1 minor adjustment to the shard per year for the past 3 years and you're crying about it... like they really devote all that much time to it. If they did, then it wouldn't have all the trammy crap or long-standing issues the other shards that the Devs cater too spilling over into it.

If they actually considered Siege when making additions to this game, then it wouldn't have lost 90% of its population because they all got so fed up with being ignored.

so STFU

 

[o2bavr6]

RTLFC

last night I got jumped by 4 guys and 2 of their GD's . They were not the best at PvP so I was not only holding my own, but in fact making them back away.

The problem was I had to make sure to keep my distance from the GD's, to which, when the players got low they would run back to the GD's for safety.

After about 10 minutes of back and forth fighting one of the GD's hit me with its firebreath from what seemed to be off screen, so sure enough they were able to take advantage of that and they finally killed me.

Without the GD's I think I would have killed them all. Not that I'm saying I am that good, but more like they were that bad.

The GD's really didnt play too much of a role in the whole fight, but it was a bit annoying to get hit with a 65 damage firebreath from so far away.

In fairness to the other 4 they must have enjoyed finally killing the Red who was whooping their behinds the whole time.

 

[Krystal]

You mean the piddly amount of time they've spent on our shard has you jealous?

Could give a flipping **** about your opinion here because it's serving no purpose other than to tell paying customers who prefer a different playstyle than you that you are somehow more important than they are.

Siege has had 1 minor adjustment to the shard per year for the past 3 years and you're crying about it... like they really devote all that much time to it. If they did, then it wouldn't have all the trammy crap or long-standing issues the other shards that the Devs cater too spilling over into it.

If they actually considered Siege when making additions to this game, then it wouldn't have lost 90% of its population because they all got so fed up with being ignored.

so STFU

i agree, dont get why trammies get so jelious when devs spend 5 min with us. Its not like they only got one dev working for them!
they really need to fix greater drags on sp thats all there is to it...

 

[Hoffs]

I just wish they would do away with tameable greater dragons in general. They have also ruined PvM by taking away much of the challenge.

 

[GoodGuy]

the devs need to take 15 mins and fix siege cause thats all it would take it make some real simple fixes, like no more dragon breathe from greater dragons.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

This has nothing to do with me being a Moderator. I responded to the OP because I play a tamer and here he is asking EA to basically nerf one of my weapons. How would you like it if I said your favorite weapon was way too powerfull and asked EA to nerf it. Search my post history. I have never once asked anything to be nerfed. I think everything is fine as it is. And no I am not big and bad. I just happen to feel passionate about my tamer character.

ur "weapon" is over powered. no weapon in uo has as much power as a dragon. We want dragons nerfed in PvP. Like our weapons are nerfed in PvP. I dont care if they one hits a boss. but when they 1 hit a player then something needs to be done. it is a huge imbalance in PvP.

If you are dying in 1 hit to a tamer with a greater dragon you simply are not playing your character correctly. Please obtain alot more experience and pvp knowledge before you post here next time.

 

[GoodGuy]

If you are dying in 1 hit to a tamer with a greater dragon you simply are not playing your character correctly. Please obtain alot more experience and pvp knowledge before you post here next time.

you obviously don't play siege perilous or haven't fought enough dismount tamer with blessed balanced bows with 40 hit lightning and 40 damage increase.

You can get dismounted+hit with lightning for more than 50+ damage, ontop of that the dragon is RIGHT ontop of you and definatly gets at least 1 swing in, if he hits you, its 30-40 damage, plus a bunch of spells.

Its not exactly a 1 hit kill, but when you allow people to stack multiple things from 1 player that kills you before you can react, yea thats 1 hit kill means.

There should always be a chance to react, and this template has taken that away, its avoid or die there isn't a lot of fighting because everytime u get on screen with a tamer you have a chance of getting instant killed.

its bogus and you obviously pvp in weak areas or duel pits if you think this isnt the case espically on siege perilous.

 

[Krystal]

a trammel trying to tell an SP player how to pk, what a laugh!
when u play SP and see the difference in shards, then maybe one day real pvpers/pkers will take u serious, till then

 

[kelmo]

Siege folk. Do not let the ill informed and ignorant folk detract you from seeking what is right for our shard. Yes, many will have an opinion, but unless they play with us, it really should not effect us.

Please just ignore the the folks that speak as if they know what happens on Siege. If they really played Siege, we would know them. Small population thing. *smiles*

If any of you folk that think the DRAGON is not too powerful and is easy to get around, come see me on Siege. I will surround myself with every tamer that is willing. You will not get with in an arrow shot of me.

*smiles* My new campaign. DRAGONS.

 

[galefan2004]

Could give a flipping **** about your opinion here because it's serving no purpose other than to tell paying customers who prefer a different playstyle than you that you are somehow more important than they are.

I never said I was more important than them. What I said is (using a number of 100,000 players as an arguement) that 99,000 players are more important than 1,000 players. Its more important to keep the masses ("prodo kids") happy then to actually worry about SP.

 

[galefan2004]

a trammel trying to tell an SP player how to pk, what a laugh!
when u play SP and see the difference in shards, then maybe one day real pvpers/pkers will take u serious, till then

All 100 of them (assuming that everyone on SP pvps)? I can't wait!

 

[kelmo]

I never said I was more important than them. What I said is (using a number of 100,000 players as an arguement) that 99,000 players are more important than 1,000 players. Its more important to keep the masses ("prodo kids") happy then to actually worry about SP.

*smiles* Really...

 

[galefan2004]

*smiles* Really...

That being said though, there isn't any reason they shouldn't realise that SP is a special case and actually think before implimenting things there and spend time and energy fixing the most annoying systems (RoT) on SP.

I don't think that SP should get a great deal of development time, but I don't think they should have ever gotten GDs either. I mean, how could you not realise that a shard that relied mostly on gm crafted gear to get by was going to be even more affected by the insane damage dragons than the players on production shards. Did GDs get no beta testing at all? Were they just thrown into the game without any feedback? I think the majority of people that encountered these in the testing phase should have complained about them then.

The problem is that they are already in the game so you are taking something away. Its better to just not add something then to take it away. I don't think tamers would have realy noticed how "underpowered" they were before GDs if they would have never added GDs to begin with.

 

[kelmo]

That being said though, there isn't any reason they shouldn't realise that SP is a special case and actually think before implimenting things there and spend time and energy fixing the most annoying systems (RoT) on SP.

I don't think that SP should get a great deal of development time, but I don't think they should have ever gotten GDs either. I mean, how could you not realise that a shard that relied mostly on gm crafted gear to get by was going to be even more affected by the insane damage dragons than the players on production shards. Did GDs get no beta testing at all? Were they just thrown into the game without any feedback? I think the majority of people that encountered these in the testing phase should have complained about them then.

The problem is that they are already in the game so you are taking something away. Its better to just not add something then to take it away. I don't think tamers would have realy noticed how "underpowered" they were before GDs if they would have never added GDs to begin with.

I am sorry you feel that way. Yes, the DRAGONS were on a test shard. Not a Siege test shard. We do not get those often. Many PvPers claimed the DRAGONS were a bit out of whack.

The fact you play where you do is fine with me. I will not insult your play style. Play as you will. Allow us the same privilege.

Uhall is about communication. Every player,no matter the shard is welcome to come here and discuss matters of importance.

 

[galefan2004]

I am sorry you feel that way. Yes, the DRAGONS were on a test shard. Not a Siege test shard. We do not get those often. Many PvPers claimed the DRAGONS were a bit out of whack.

IMO, that would have been the time for the dragons to be adjusted. It was a lot easier to adjust them before they entered the game then to nerf them once they entered the game.

The fact you play where you do is fine with me. I will not insult your play style. Play as you will. Allow us the same privilege.

Regardless of what I might have said in the past, I have no intentions of trying to take the right to play on SP away from you. I think you guys need focus from the developers when it comes to game breaking issues on your shard, and I am glad that you are getting ROT addressed. I would also like to see GDs addressed on SP (especially).

Uhall is about communication. Every player,no matter the shard is welcome to come here and discuss matters of importance.

Thats one of the things I like about UHall so much as compared to other games forums. I like the fact that the community here doesn't have the attitude that everyone is better than everyone else for a whole plethera of reasons.

 

[Krystal]

So we all in agreement here, SP should have never received the GDs. they need to be nerfed in PvP. Usually when the Dev's put something new in the game they make the item/creature over powered to keep us busy for a couple months then nerf it. but this nerf is taking to long. players are taking "breaks" cause they dont want to play a tamer and are sick of dieing 4 screens away from massive dumps that dragons put out. "all kill" = no skill! like i said before if i wanted to fight dragons I'd go farm them and make some loot.

i dont understand why tamers should be in PvP at all.:/

So in conclusion, Dev's plz fix these beast before they destoy pvp more then they alrdy have!!

 

[Sir Stain]

Learn to deal with it.

 

[Yalp]

So we all in agreement here, SP should have never received the GDs. they need to be nerfed in PvP. Usually when the Dev's put something new in the game they make the item/creature over powered to keep us busy for a couple months then nerf it. but this nerf is taking to long. players are taking "breaks" cause they dont want to play a tamer and are sick of dieing 4 screens away from massive dumps that dragons put out. "all kill" = no skill! like i said before if i wanted to fight dragons I'd go farm them and make some loot.

i dont understand why tamers should be in PvP at all.:/

So in conclusion, Dev's plz fix these beast before they destoy pvp more then they alrdy have!!

Aww dude, you started to have me there with the start of your post but then it kinda left the tracks and went airborne....SP has a problem with greater dragons, that is the agreement in this thread.

But then you state peeps are leaving the game rather than change any tactic or strategy (leaving the rails portion of the post)

You threw a little heartbeat of hope that it might come back to the tracks when you talk about a REAL problem with NPC mage casters being able to hit far outside of a normal realm.

and you finish up, completely airborne, sailing off into the nether world with your comment that a completely competent capable template has no skill to work and does not belong in pvp world..

I was so hopeful there for a sec!

 

[Krystal]

Aww dude, you started to have me there with the start of your post but then it kinda left the tracks and went airborne....SP has a problem with greater dragons, that is the agreement in this thread.

But then you state peeps are leaving the game rather than change any tactic or strategy (leaving the rails portion of the post)

You threw a little heartbeat of hope that it might come back to the tracks when you talk about a REAL problem with NPC mage casters being able to hit far outside of a normal realm.

and you finish up, completely airborne, sailing off into the nether world with your comment that a completely competent capable template has no skill to work and does not belong in pvp world..

I was so hopeful there for a sec!

sorry to disappoint u:/
but i dont want to have to fight "AI" when i am PvPing/pking.
but if they fix greater dragons and pets casting abilities (not dumping on me 4screens away) i'd live with it
or maybe have faction MI like it used to work, tamers cant attack u, but if u attack the tamer the MI is broken...

 

[Sarphus]

I guess people need something to talk about. Otherwise they wouldn't continue to

 

[Spree]

I never said I was more important than them. What I said is (using a number of 100,000 players as an arguement) that 99,000 players are more important than 1,000 players. Its more important to keep the masses ("prodo kids") happy then to actually worry about SP.

*smiles* Really...

That isnt right didn't Mr Tact say 3%

 

[Spree]

I guess people need something to talk about. Otherwise they wouldn't continue to

 

[UltimaSword]

Simple solution. Devs balance them on siege and maybe a bit in pvp production shards. Leave them alone in pvm.

 

[archite666]

It amazes me the lack of knowledge some of the people here display.

Tamers with greater dragons ALWAYS on foot? Have you heard of ninjitsu?

Telling people to just adapt? Lets get something straight, when I have to change templates completly and gear its not adapting. When I go from a necro mage to a disco tamer thats not adapting. Adapting would be changing A SKILL, carrying some different equipment, trying different combos, not logging onto a different character just to fight one sort of template.

Look at it this way, ever been to a offical tournament style duel? Theres a reason you couldn't allow dragons, its pretty simple. Anything that you couldnt "duel" with should be taken out of pvp. Try fighting a dragon in a small box and see what happens.

Here are a list of every skill in UO(Pure crafting exempt) Now all these have some, even if small use in pvp.
- Alchemy
- Anatomy
- Animal Lore
- Animal Taming
- Archery
- Focus
- Bushido
- Chivalry
- Detect Hidden
- Discordance
- Evaluating INT
- Fencing
- Healing
- Hiding
- Inscription
- Lumberjacking
- Mace Fighting
- Magery
- Meditation
- Musicianship
- Necromancy
- Ninjitsu
- Parrying
- Peacemaking
- Poisoning
- Provocation
- Resisting Spells
- Spell Weaving
- Spirit Speak
- Stealing
- Stealth
- Swordsmanship
- Tactics
- Tracking
- Wrestling

Now all these have some, even if small use in pvp. Now it is true that skills should have pros and cons to other skills in order to make it interesting. Resisting spells cuts down on magery and necromancy. Parry cuts down on melee. Chivarly cuts down on necromancy, detect hidden cuts down on stealth (poorly I might add) spell weaving can cut down on other casting, poisoning can cut down healing and casters.

I am tired of hearing people say adapt or that tamers arnt overpowered because they can be killed, anyone in the game can be killed, thats not what were here to argue. What we are here to argue is that in pvp taming trumps every other skill and its weakness disco and peacemaking to not shut down taming like other skills shut down their corresponding skills.

For instance, excluding items in my example, necromancy is built on juicy curses: corpse skin, strangle, blood oath. But chivarly can remove curses, cheaply and fast negating my necromancy, not completly. Just like parry doest make you untouchable, necromancy has some use but very little against a proper paladin.

Now for a tamer, if im a mage there is nothing I can do to trump the tamer.
I could run mage,eval,med with music disco and peace. But even then I wont be able to kill the dragons, even with duel EVs and casting on it while its discoed, the pet will be recalled before I can kill it. Even then I cant kill the tamer especially a stealth tamer, my only offence is too run around casting earthquake, a spell that doest always reveal and is slow as a joke.

Simply:
At best, I kill the dragon by some miracle and he stealths away, a tie.
At worst, I die, a loss.

At that is why tamers, especially ones with dragons and beetles do not belong in pvp.

P.S. As a guildy has shown, something I left out is the issue of passive detect on siege. I know alot of you have seen us siegers mention this and I think you dont understand. See on your shard you have a chance to reveal a stealther around you, and I think even more so if your an elf, however on siege we dont have that, so unless your casting earthquake or other area of effect spells, stealthers will NOT be revealed no way no how.

Let me say this again, unless your casting a AOE spell or throwing a conflag pot, stealthers on siege cannot be reveiled. That means stealth tamers can bail out of combat whenever they want.

 

[UltimaSword]

I would have agreed but tamers do belong in pvp just like any other class. They just need balancing. More realistic caps on damage output and casting speeds and special abilities would be balancing.

 

[Draxous]

Aww dude, you started to have me there with the start of your post but then it kinda left the tracks and went airborne....SP has a problem with greater dragons, that is the agreement in this thread.

But then you state peeps are leaving the game rather than change any tactic or strategy (leaving the rails portion of the post)

You threw a little heartbeat of hope that it might come back to the tracks when you talk about a REAL problem with NPC mage casters being able to hit far outside of a normal realm.

and you finish up, completely airborne, sailing off into the nether world with your comment that a completely competent capable template has no skill to work and does not belong in pvp world..

I was so hopeful there for a sec!

sorry to disappoint u:/
but i dont want to have to fight "AI" when i am PvPing/pking.
but if they fix greater dragons and pets casting abilities (not dumping on me 4screens away) i'd live with it
or maybe have faction MI like it used to work, tamers cant attack u, but if u attack the tamer the MI is broken...

Its ok Krystal, he needs to learn how to read better.

What you said was right on point. Pets should aid the tamer, not do the dirty work for them, completely.

That's the problem.

 

[archite666]

Hm true, but animals need to be:

a) killable by mages and dexxers at about the same rate as a player if not faster.
b) Not have anywhere near the damage output of a player.
c) Be repressed by certain skills, make peacing more viable.

For instance, the duel bake kitsune combo, I have no problem with, yes they are fast and yes they cast alot but the damage output ist so great and I have a chance to run while dismounted and try to invis, its at least a sporting chance.

However dismounted and a greater dragon or a beetle and mare combo is just done deal.

 

[Krystal]

you know i can not understand why passive detect is not on SP. You would think that would be more on our shard then any other. hiding/stealth on sp makes no sense at all. we should have passive detect.
anyway back to dragons i agree with u cash. Pets really do need to be nerf as BR said they are suppose to assist the tamer not do all the work for them. all tamers need is 3 macros. all kill, smoke bomb and animal form.

 

[Yalp]

Pets .... are suppose to assist the tamer not do all the work for them. all tamers need is 3 macros. all kill, smoke bomb and animal form.

The pet is the tamers weapon. Would you say the same about a dexers weapon? Or a mages spells?

It's easy to beat up on tamers if at the root you feel tamers shouldn't be in pvp. But to advocate for a nerf of pets w/o calling for a nerf of other weapons is hypocritical. Wanna talk about how fast gd's cast? lets also discuss how fast some weaps hit. fast weapon w/ SSI? 1.5 second hits. Nerf that? I bet most peeps would scream bloody murder if an honest discussion was attempted to re-balance this.. what mage can cast at 1.5 second intervals w/o hacking?

Just an observation.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

The pet is the tamers weapon. Would you say the same about a dexers weapon? Or a mages spells?

It's easy to beat up on tamers if at the root you feel tamers shouldn't be in pvp. But to advocate for a nerf of pets w/o calling for a nerf of other weapons is hypocritical. Wanna talk about how fast gd's cast? lets also discuss how fast some weaps hit. fast weapon w/ SSI? 1.5 second hits. Nerf that? I bet most peeps would scream bloody murder if an honest discussion was attempted to re-balance this.. what mage can cast at 1.5 second intervals w/o hacking?

Just an observation.

Now all these have some, even if small use in pvp. Now it is true that skills should have pros and cons to other skills in order to make it interesting. Resisting spells cuts down on magery and necromancy. Parry cuts down on melee. Chivarly cuts down on necromancy, detect hidden cuts down on stealth (poorly I might add) spell weaving can cut down on other casting, poisoning can cut down healing and casters.

I am tired of hearing people say adapt or that tamers arnt overpowered because they can be killed, anyone in the game can be killed, thats not what were here to argue. What we are here to argue is that in pvp taming trumps every other skill and its weakness disco and peacemaking to not shut down taming like other skills shut down their corresponding skills.

For instance, excluding items in my example, necromancy is built on juicy curses: corpse skin, strangle, blood oath. But chivarly can remove curses, cheaply and fast negating my necromancy, not completly. Just like parry doest make you untouchable, necromancy has some use but very little against a proper paladin.

Now for a tamer, if im a mage there is nothing I can do to trump the tamer.
I could run mage,eval,med with music disco and peace. But even then I wont be able to kill the dragons, even with duel EVs and casting on it while its discoed, the pet will be recalled before I can kill it. Even then I cant kill the tamer especially a stealth tamer, my only offence is too run around casting earthquake, a spell that doest always reveal and is slow as a joke.

Simply:
At best, I kill the dragon by some miracle and he stealths away, a tie.
At worst, I die, a loss.

At that is why tamers, especially ones with dragons and beetles do not belong in pvp.

-Cash

I'm pretty sure I can't explain it better than that.

 

[Trebr Drab]

Now all these have some, even if small use in pvp. Now it is true that skills should have pros and cons to other skills in order to make it interesting. Resisting spells cuts down on magery and necromancy. Parry cuts down on melee. Chivarly cuts down on necromancy, detect hidden cuts down on stealth (poorly I might add) spell weaving can cut down on other casting, poisoning can cut down healing and casters.

I am tired of hearing people say adapt or that tamers arnt overpowered because they can be killed, anyone in the game can be killed, thats not what were here to argue. What we are here to argue is that in pvp taming trumps every other skill and its weakness disco and peacemaking to not shut down taming like other skills shut down their corresponding skills.

For instance, excluding items in my example, necromancy is built on juicy curses: corpse skin, strangle, blood oath. But chivarly can remove curses, cheaply and fast negating my necromancy, not completly. Just like parry doest make you untouchable, necromancy has some use but very little against a proper paladin.

Now for a tamer, if im a mage there is nothing I can do to trump the tamer.
I could run mage,eval,med with music disco and peace. But even then I wont be able to kill the dragons, even with duel EVs and casting on it while its discoed, the pet will be recalled before I can kill it. Even then I cant kill the tamer especially a stealth tamer, my only offence is too run around casting earthquake, a spell that doest always reveal and is slow as a joke.

Simply:
At best, I kill the dragon by some miracle and he stealths away, a tie.
At worst, I die, a loss.

At that is why tamers, especially ones with dragons and beetles do not belong in pvp.

-Cash

I'm pretty sure I can't explain it better than that.

MoonglowMerchant, I agree with you, but one thing I wanted to point out here.
Your example of the Necro/Paladin shows that if you aren't a Paladin you are paper to the Necro's scissors, while the Paladin is the rock.
Yet your Mage in the next example is still not a Paladin.

My point is that rock/paper/scissors isn't a good situation for PvP at all in the overall PvP formula. It only works for specific templates vs. specific templates. That's not balance.

I haven't commented on Greater Dragons yet, but it blew my mind that they added them after trying so hard to reduce the overpowering effects of the AoS baggage.

 

[Yalp]

Now all these have some, even if small use in pvp. Now it is true that skills should have pros and cons to other skills in order to make it interesting. Resisting spells cuts down on magery and necromancy. Parry cuts down on melee. Chivarly cuts down on necromancy, detect hidden cuts down on stealth (poorly I might add) spell weaving can cut down on other casting, poisoning can cut down healing and casters.

I am tired of hearing people say adapt or that tamers arnt overpowered because they can be killed, anyone in the game can be killed, thats not what were here to argue. What we are here to argue is that in pvp taming trumps every other skill and its weakness disco and peacemaking to not shut down taming like other skills shut down their corresponding skills.

For instance, excluding items in my example, necromancy is built on juicy curses: corpse skin, strangle, blood oath. But chivarly can remove curses, cheaply and fast negating my necromancy, not completly. Just like parry doest make you untouchable, necromancy has some use but very little against a proper paladin.

Now for a tamer, if im a mage there is nothing I can do to trump the tamer.
I could run mage,eval,med with music disco and peace. But even then I wont be able to kill the dragons, even with duel EVs and casting on it while its discoed, the pet will be recalled before I can kill it. Even then I cant kill the tamer especially a stealth tamer, my only offence is too run around casting earthquake, a spell that doest always reveal and is slow as a joke.

Simply:
At best, I kill the dragon by some miracle and he stealths away, a tie.
At worst, I die, a loss.

At that is why tamers, especially ones with dragons and beetles do not belong in pvp.

-Cash

I'm pretty sure I can't explain it better than that.

you present some good points, well explained. But I don't agree with the end result. You conflate tamer and the pet. You can counteract the tamer just as easily as you can counter any other template. Depends on what the tamer adds to it's palate. Tamer/Lore/Vet is at least 300 skill points easily defeated.. Without a pet a tamer is just like a dexer w/o a weapon in hand. Tamer and Mage.. then you defeat the mage side.... Tamer and Dexer... then you defeat the dexer side.... so on and so on....

Now when you switch to battling the gd... that is the weapon, if you will, that you advocate nerfing. It is equivalent to calling for a nerfing of a fast war fork, with SSI. It is a weapon that works faster than other templates can work their offense. A mage can not cast at the speed of a war fork with SSI. The spells of a gd combined with the special moves are equivalent to the types of damage that fast war fork does.. special moves plus the damage of the strike. Yet there are no pvp'rs calling for nerfing the speeds some weapons hit with. Again, it appears it's just an excuse for tamer haters to start another thread.

I agree to your points that players.. any player.. can stealth away, and withdraw from a fight if they are on the loosing side... maybe that needs to be addressed in another forum....such as "preventing certain tactics from being used in pvp"... I'm all for a robust discussion on that.

Maybe we need to add insurance costs to killing a pet in pvp. Same amount you'd get if you killed the tamer. Makes the pet more like a pvp participant, than a weapon of the tamers. Another off the top of my head thought thrown out there to offer an equitable solution to some peeps problem.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

MoonglowMerchant, I agree with you, but one thing I wanted to point out here.
Your example of the Necro/Paladin shows that if you aren't a Paladin you are paper to the Necro's scissors, while the Paladin is the rock.
Yet your Mage in the next example is still not a Paladin.

My point is that rock/paper/scissors isn't a good situation for PvP at all in the overall PvP formula. It only works for specific templates vs. specific templates. That's not balance.

I haven't commented on Greater Dragons yet, but it blew my mind that they added them after trying so hard to reduce the overpowering effects of the AoS baggage.

I can't take credit for that post, that was Cash.

To me what Cash was saying is that balance means that templates should be competitive against each other. So, if you get a template that is over competitive, that template requires balancing.

We have had numerous examples of over competitive templates. Honor/bushido/crit dexxers, deathstrike archers, weapon skill mages, etc...

The last PvP publish did a good job of addressing those concerns. As you said though for some unknown and incomprehensible reason Greater Dragons were thrown into the PvP scene after all this work to balance things.

It is a mistake that needs fixing.

 

[galefan2004]

sorry to disappoint u:/
but i dont want to have to fight "AI" when i am PvPing/pking.
but if they fix greater dragons and pets casting abilities (not dumping on me 4screens away) i'd live with it
or maybe have faction MI like it used to work, tamers cant attack u, but if u attack the tamer the MI is broken...

Oh, so you need to have the first attack on the tamer...BULL.

The fact is that tamers do take skill to play. Regardless of what you think. The fact is that just because you don't want to PvP with pets included they are still included in various ways and not just by tamers. You don't want necros to be able to summon revs or mages be able to summon deamons?

I agree that GDs are oped. However, if you stripped GDs then tamers would just go back to 5x Geater Hiyrus. Hiyrus were the old whine about pet because on normal servers they can dismount you and kill you in 3 hits. I can only imagine how many hits it actually takes a Hiyru to kill players in gm armor.

 

[galefan2004]

That isnt right didn't Mr Tact say 3%

Oh wow so 97,000 to 3,000. That hardly makes a huge difference other than that if SP actually does make up 3% of the population then I highly doubt this game has above 50,000 actual players at this moment.

 

[galefan2004]

Telling people to just adapt? Lets get something straight, when I have to change templates completly and gear its not adapting. When I go from a necro mage to a disco tamer thats not adapting. Adapting would be changing A SKILL, carrying some different equipment, trying different combos, not logging onto a different character just to fight one sort of template.

If you are a UO veteran you know just as well as I do that you have had to change every single skill in your template (more or less) to just adapt. Necros didn't even come into the game until AoS and then players adapted to that play style having to change skills.

Look at it this way, ever been to a offical tournament style duel? Theres a reason you couldn't allow dragons, its pretty simple. Anything that you couldnt "duel" with should be taken out of pvp. Try fighting a dragon in a small box and see what happens.

Dragons should be allowed in duels. If you can't kill the tamer because of the dragon then you lose the duel. Thats your issue. All things that are part of the game should be allowed in duels. Duels are also not a great guage of in the field pvp between multiple players.

I am tired of hearing people say adapt or that tamers arnt overpowered because they can be killed, anyone in the game can be killed, thats not what were here to argue. What we are here to argue is that in pvp taming trumps every other skill and its weakness disco and peacemaking to not shut down taming like other skills shut down their corresponding skills.

Yes and necro and archery are so underpowered. Thats why you see about 10 necros, 15 archers, and maybe 5 tamers in a group of 20 when you are talking about pvp.

Now for a tamer, if im a mage there is nothing I can do to trump the tamer.
I could run mage,eval,med with music disco and peace. But even then I wont be able to kill the dragons, even with duel EVs and casting on it while its discoed, the pet will be recalled before I can kill it. Even then I cant kill the tamer especially a stealth tamer, my only offence is too run around casting earthquake, a spell that doest always reveal and is slow as a joke.

The fact that you believe there is nothing you can do is the real problem. Instead of learning ways to beat tamers like the vast majority of the player base has you assume there is nothing you can do. I don't know why you would even bring up killing the pet because trying to kill the pet is stupid. As far as stealth tamers, I will agree that it is a problem, but perhaps they could make it so that the tamer has to be shown for the pet to be attacking. The second the tamer stealths the pet would stop attacking. Problem solved IMO.

Simply:
At best, I kill the dragon by some miracle and he stealths away, a tie.
At worst, I die, a loss.

Why the hell would you even try to kill the dragon. Thats ignorant. If they are stealthed then run the dragon off screen and forget about them. If they follow you run the dragon off screen again and forget about them.

At that is why tamers, especially ones with dragons and beetles do not belong in pvp.

Because you can't handle the template it must not be allowed in PvP? Bull. The pets need tuned down, but tamers have every right in PvP that you do. If I can heal through a greater dragon attack using a mage weapon in CRAP resist gear then you should be able to do so in decent gear.

P.S. As a guildy has shown, something I left out is the issue of passive detect on siege. I know alot of you have seen us siegers mention this and I think you dont understand. See on your shard you have a chance to reveal a stealther around you, and I think even more so if your an elf, however on siege we dont have that, so unless your casting earthquake or other area of effect spells, stealthers will NOT be revealed no way no how.

Seems like the real problem here is stealth. I'm 100% certain that tamers are not the only ones taking advantage of this. Maybe you should petition EA to turn on passive detect on SP?

 

[Kage]

If you are a UO veteran you know just as well as I do that you have had to change every single skill in your template (more or less) to just adapt. Necros didn't even come into the game until AoS and then players adapted to that play style having to change skills.



Dragons should be allowed in duels. If you can't kill the tamer because of the dragon then you lose the duel. Thats your issue. All things that are part of the game should be allowed in duels. Duels are also not a great guage of in the field pvp between multiple players.



Yes and necro and archery are so underpowered. Thats why you see about 10 necros, 15 archers, and maybe 5 tamers in a group of 20 when you are talking about pvp.



The fact that you believe there is nothing you can do is the real problem. Instead of learning ways to beat tamers like the vast majority of the player base has you assume there is nothing you can do. I don't know why you would even bring up killing the pet because trying to kill the pet is stupid. As far as stealth tamers, I will agree that it is a problem, but perhaps they could make it so that the tamer has to be shown for the pet to be attacking. The second the tamer stealths the pet would stop attacking. Problem solved IMO.



Why the hell would you even try to kill the dragon. Thats ignorant. If they are stealthed then run the dragon off screen and forget about them. If they follow you run the dragon off screen again and forget about them.



Because you can't handle the template it must not be allowed in PvP? Bull. The pets need tuned down, but tamers have every right in PvP that you do. If I can heal through a greater dragon attack using a mage weapon in CRAP resist gear then you should be able to do so in decent gear.



Seems like the real problem here is stealth. I'm 100% certain that tamers are not the only ones taking advantage of this. Maybe you should petition EA to turn on passive detect on SP?

Play SP then give me your 2 cents... until then

 

[galefan2004]

Play SP then give me your 2 cents... until then

This post has nothing to do with what 3% of the population thinks. These forums don't belong to you SP people regardless of how much you think they do. This is nothing more than a troll post.

Why would I want to play a bass ackwards server that is filled with people such as yourself that think just because you can stealth up to someone with a blessed bow that is wearing gm armor you are a better pvper than someone that is bringing down someone wearing 70/85/70/85/70 reists suits with max properties? The very logic of that is idiotic.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

This post has nothing to do with what 3% of the population thinks. These forums don't belong to you SP people regardless of how much you think they do. This is nothing more than a troll post.

Why would I want to play a bass ackwards server that is filled with people such as yourself that think just because you can stealth up to someone with a blessed bow that is wearing gm armor you are a better pvper than someone that is bringing down someone wearing 70/85/70/85/70 reists suits with max properties? The very logic of that is idiotic.

Have you noticed that Siege is the "advanced" shard and not the other way around?

That is because on Siege, when you kill the guy wearing the 70/85/70/85/70 suit with Max properties, you can open his corpse and take his stuff.

That makes it harder than PvP on a regular shard where there is no risk.

That is why Siege players especially despise Greater Dragons. Because on a shard based on risk versus reward, the use of a greater dragon for PvP represents no risk and risk is why we play here.

 

[o2bavr6]

So how about a compromise?

Reg Shards:
Tram - Leave it as it is now
Fel - Leave damage as it is now, but reduce casting/FB distance to 7 tiles
Fel - Remove ability to recall pet to tamer if pet is aggressor. It should have to walk back. If it is not aggressor then it can be recalled back.

SP:
Since I dont play it, this is just an idea, but I'm talking out my @$$.
Either remove pets from PvP completely or reduce their damage to not more than 35HP per shot, ala an armor ignore.
Also if they leave pets in PvP reduce casting distance to 7 tiles
Also remove ability to recall pet to tamer if pet is aggressor. It should have to walk back. If it is not aggressor then it can be recalled back.

As I said this is a compromise, any Thoughts?

 

[Krystal]

The pet is the tamers weapon. Would you say the same about a dexers weapon? Or a mages spells?

It's easy to beat up on tamers if at the root you feel tamers shouldn't be in pvp. But to advocate for a nerf of pets w/o calling for a nerf of other weapons is hypocritical. Wanna talk about how fast gd's cast? lets also discuss how fast some weaps hit. fast weapon w/ SSI? 1.5 second hits. Nerf that? I bet most peeps would scream bloody murder if an honest discussion was attempted to re-balance this.. what mage can cast at 1.5 second intervals w/o hacking?

Just an observation.

AND WEAPONS ARE NERFED AND CAPPED IN PVP! TAMERS "WEAPONS" SHOULD BE CAPPED/NERFED TOO!

PS i tried a tamer in pvp, it was so easy and so unfair i couldn't continue playing it. i dont like to win at all costs, i like challenges! hitting all kill then smoke bomb is not a challange

 

[o2bavr6]

AND WEAPONS ARE NERFED AND CAPPED IN PVP! TAMERS "WEAPONS" SHOULD BE CAPPED/NERFED TOO!

PS i tried a tamer in pvp, it was so easy and so unfair i couldn't continue playing it. i dont like to win at all costs, i like challenges! hitting all kill then smoke bomb is not a challange

So what do you think of my idea in the post above yours?

 

[Krystal]

This post has nothing to do with what 3% of the population thinks. These forums don't belong to you SP people regardless of how much you think they do. This is nothing more than a troll post.

Why would I want to play a bass ackwards server that is filled with people such as yourself that think just because you can stealth up to someone with a blessed bow that is wearing gm armor you are a better pvper than someone that is bringing down someone wearing 70/85/70/85/70 reists suits with max properties? The very logic of that is idiotic.

Kage is a mage. no stealth on his temp. you have no idea about our shard or its players, so untill u have something intelligent to say about our shard . :loser:

 

[o2bavr6]

AND WEAPONS ARE NERFED AND CAPPED IN PVP! TAMERS "WEAPONS" SHOULD BE CAPPED/NERFED TOO!

PS i tried a tamer in pvp, it was so easy and so unfair i couldn't continue playing it. i dont like to win at all costs, i like challenges! hitting all kill then smoke bomb is not a challange

So what do you think of my idea in the post above yours?

Or not..

 

[Krystal]

So how about a compromise?

Reg Shards:
Tram - Leave it as it is now
Fel - Leave damage as it is now, but reduce casting/FB distance to 7 tiles
Fel - Remove ability to recall pet to tamer if pet is aggressor. It should have to walk back. If it is not aggressor then it can be recalled back.

SP:
Since I dont play it, this is just an idea, but I'm talking out my @$$.
Either remove pets from PvP completely or reduce their damage to not more than 35HP per shot, ala an armor ignore.
Also if they leave pets in PvP reduce casting distance to 7 tiles
Also remove ability to recall pet to tamer if pet is aggressor. It should have to walk back. If it is not aggressor then it can be recalled back.

As I said this is a compromise, any Thoughts?

Good ideas tamers should not be able to log pets out when aggressed. tamers on SP are using the log out method because its better then pet balls. and since we dont have passive detect , its easy for them to do this. casting tiles definitely need to be reduced. also the dragons spells need to be on a casting timer. like mages are capped at 2/5 casting, pets need to be capped. the fire ball special needs to be capped for sure. with 70 fire resist it hits me for over 70 dam. this cant be difficult to code cause weapons are capped in pvp.
im saying this should be in pvp! im not trying to mess with anyone's farming.

There is a thread right now on sp boards of a tamer gloating about 9 of us not be able to kill him and him picking off people! its so lame!
all kill/smoke bombs FTW

 

[o2bavr6]

There is a thread right now on sp boards of a tamer gloating about 9 of us not be able to kill him and him picking off people! its so lame!
all kill/smoke bombs FTW

Kinda like a 4th grader hiding behind his father isn't it

I can relate to people's complaints who spent huge amounts of time working the skill.

The ones who have to use jewels to be able to tame a GD I have no respect for.

Either way it seems to be a HUGE problem on SP,and if EA's SP update history means anything, it will continue to be a huge problem there for the next couple of years.

I do feel sorry for the SP players.

 

[Kith Kanan]

pets just need's to get the hell out of pvp .. nuff said........