PVP Issues and Discussion Topic

[Yalp]

I know there is no way to prove it, but all I use is UO and UOAssist in PvP and I am in the most successful PvP guild on my shard.

I can say that a little more than half of my guild only use UO and UOAssist. The other 49% on the other hand

Just a question. Do you go out pvp'ing with the 49% of your guild that cheats?

If so, do you experience a benefit from that cheating?

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[o2bavr6]

Just a question. Do you go out pvp'ing with the 49% of your guild that cheats?

If so, do you experience a benefit from that cheating?

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

I PvP alone and with my guild.

The only cheats people in my guild use is speeder. It can give an advantage in the running department, but in most cases I refuse to chase anyone if they run away. So does their cheating benefit me? Not dierectly, but I'm sure it does indirectly.

I truly don't condone cheating or speeder, although I sure like buying val hammers for as cheap as they are and I cant get the people in my guild who use speeder to stop using it. So the solution would be for EA to come up with some sort of fix.

Oh, and most of the people in my guild who use speeder are the dexxers so they cant really help me while im on my mage anyway.

 

[Erekose]

EA could have stopped cheating a long time ago if they really wanted to. As long as people keep paying they don't care. I am talking about management, not the devs per se. The devs just do their jobs as they are told to.

 

[o2bavr6]

EA could have stopped cheating a long time ago if they really wanted to. As long as people keep paying they don't care. I am talking about management, not the devs per se. The devs just do their jobs as they are told to.

I'm sure if EA had a choice they would nto want any type of cheating. With that said, they are a business out to make profit. If the fixes are determined to be difficult and not cost effective then they do take a back seat.

Don't forget they are trying to hold the game together with code from 10 years ago. How many of us have a piece of software on our computers other than UO that is 10 years old?

I don' think that it is an excuse for them not to fix the issues but business wise I see why they do it... er.. don't do it.

I know that EA wanted to get with the times by introducing KR, but I really wish they would have started the code from zero when creating KR.

I would like to have seen the exact game features and functions as 2D is today, but only with the KR 3D graphics.

 

[NB-Cats]

Pardon me but this thread is not about you. Any posts made in the direction or your guilds has nothing to do with you personally, but everything to do with the actions of your guild IN GAME. We the members of the community have the right to post aboutn these issues, and if you are part of the problem you definitely are not part of the solution.

Dont like it? Post elsewhere. Honestly these boards are supposed to be about community.

LOL?

Restroom Cowboy was the one bringing me up in ALL of his deleted post.

I'm not the one complaining about the stratics modship... if anyone here is unhappy it has to be you.

 

[o2bavr6]

LOL?

Restroom Cowboy was the one bringing me up in ALL of his deleted post.

I'm not the one complaining about the stratics modship... if anyone here is unhappy it has to be you.

Goose, you have to admit that you are very skilled at changing the subject... or having people look at your left hand while your right hand is in the cookie jar

 

[NB-Cats]

Does that know me, love me!
Does that don't, really hate me!

 

[o2bavr6]

Does that know me, love me!
Does that don't, really hate me!

Heh well said.

I kind of think of you like an itch that you scratch to much. At first it feels good but after a while your just raw and it hurts.

 

[NB-Cats]

LOL!

I have no reason for changing the subject at hand. Other then wither, the changes JC suggested does not affect our alliance.

I'm just worried constantly nerfing will favor numbers over team work.

 

[Sheridan]

Last chance. Keep it civil and on topic and quit the elementary school bickering.

 

[GarthGrey]

Somebody break a nail when they clocked in?

 

[WWGRD?]

Pardon me but this thread is not about you. Any posts made in the direction or your guilds has nothing to do with you personally, but everything to do with the actions of your guild IN GAME. We the members of the community have the right to post about these issues, and if you are part of the problem you definitely are not part of the solution.

Dont like it? Post elsewhere. Honestly these boards are supposed to be about community.

If these boards are "supposed to be about community" why don't you follow your own advice and stop attacking people with lies and slander that you absolutely have no proof of?

Is anyone else amused that JC starts a thread about pvp imbalance and never mentions greater dragons and the first thing he does mention is a "bug" that reveals hidden players. That about sums up his entire pvp knowledge, if you aren't on a tamer, be a stealther and all other templates must be nerfed so the tamers and stealthers rule supreme.

 

[Crystilastamous]

Another 4 useless and non-topical replies from the same guild.

So not only will you try and derail discussion but you want to make fun of how this bug is not yet widely known, thus certain people are able to exploit it to their amusement. Such as the person I fought in Vampiric Form, he has been seen using it. Isn't that a coincidence? A vampiric form, attacking hidden, ~40 damage moving shot archer. Three things that should be addressed.

Again, we've already shot down vampiric embrace, you can't nerf the form itself, that would be unfair to necromancers, who have already been nerfed into oblivion. (also consider the draw backs of no garlic use, and -25 fire)
You can attempt to nerf all the items that were recently introduced in game that include the ability to have necromancy as a property on them.... that would be more acceptable to me, IF it really is such a big problem.

but again, your guild uses Bake Kitsunes with 0 taming skill, so what is the difference?

 

[JC the Builder]

You can attempt to nerf all the items that were recently introduced in game that include the ability to have necromancy as a property on them.... that would be more acceptable to me

It wouldn't solve the issue of players using soulstones to cast it.

but again, your guild uses Bake Kitsunes with 0 taming skill, so what is the difference?

So? It is a Necromancer ability to control wolves. If you think is is unbalanced say something. I don't know why your guild keeps saying "but.....but....but you do it also!" Of course we do, we play UO. Tamers use Greater Dragons. Necromancers cast Wither. It doesn't make it balanced.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

If these boards are "supposed to be about community" why don't you follow your own advice and stop attacking people with lies and slander that you absolutely have no proof of?

Is anyone else amused that JC starts a thread about pvp imbalance and never mentions greater dragons and the first thing he does mention is a "bug" that reveals hidden players. That about sums up his entire pvp knowledge, if you aren't on a tamer, be a stealther and all other templates must be nerfed so the tamers and stealthers rule supreme.

I havent said anything I cannot back up with either a journal or a screenshot and freely offered these up for EA to peruse over. If you are offended thats not my problem, as my posts were already cleaned up. If you are citing these posts that were deleted then you are trolling the thread.

I on the other hand have been staying on the subject at hand, how about you do the same. Like mama said...if you aint cookin get the f**k out my kitchen.

 

[Crystilastamous]

Ok.....

So you want to nerf the ability to stone on necro, cast vampiric embrace, and soulstone off necromancy.


But you DON"T want to nerf stoning taming on to bond powerful pets? You're flip flopping left and right.


Like, I said Link, I don't care what anyone does, I think PvP is pretty well balanced if you know how to pvp and build characters/templates.



The only fixes that really need to happen are increased mana usage on "Moving Shot" and Breathe attack from pets should be capped at 45 not 80, like i regularly see from my greater.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Again, we've already shot down vampiric embrace, you can't nerf the form itself, that would be unfair to necromancers, who have already been nerfed into oblivion. (also consider the draw backs of no garlic use, and -25 fire)
You can attempt to nerf all the items that were recently introduced in game that include the ability to have necromancy as a property on them.... that would be more acceptable to me, IF it really is such a big problem.

but again, your guild uses Bake Kitsunes with 0 taming skill, so what is the difference?

Not fair to a necromancer? A necromancer uses real skill and as such would be unaffected by making 80 or above real necro skill a requirement for using vamp form. The only ones affected by making skill a requirement of vamp form would be those using jewels to attain the needed skill. So you didnt shoot vamp form down, all you did was chase your own tail.

Bake kitsunes? Ever hear of using a dark wolf? It makes it possible to control wolves...much akin to a bushido chars ability to control and use a lesser hiryu. Used to be more powerful but it too was nerfed. Necros used to be able to control cu sidhes.

BTW...nerf implies change. People arent asking for change to the form, but to the requirements of USING it. The only people who are fussing about this being a bad thing are those whom use the loophole to get into form.

@NB-Cats. These changes would indeed affect members of your guild, as they would every other guild too. Change is good, and balance is better.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

Ok.....

So you want to nerf the ability to stone on necro, cast vampiric embrace, and soulstone off necromancy.


But you DON"T want to nerf stoning taming on to bond powerful pets? You're flip flopping left and right.


Like, I said Link, I don't care what anyone does, I think PvP is pretty well balanced if you know how to pvp and build characters/templates.



The only fixes that really need to happen are increased mana usage on "Moving Shot" and Breathe attack from pets should be capped at 45 not 80, like i regularly see from my greater.

Again, comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps like others mentioned you should add the bakes to your list of concerns, and stop trying to use the defense of *its ok if I do one thing if you do another.* I could mention things I dont like you guys are doing till I am blue in the face, however you dont see that. Use some common sense if you dont the way something is.

Lets leave discussions of skill and templates out of it. Skill has nothing to do with using a spellchanneling bow on a non mage char to avoid specials penalty costs. Skill has nothing to do with seeing gaza mats where my fields are or even having the uncanny ability to run through solid objects. Do you see where this is going? Dont confuse using exploits with knowing *how to play* a template.

 

[Crystilastamous]

Not fair to a necromancer? A necromancer uses real skill and as such would be unaffected by making 80 or above real necro skill a requirement for using vamp form. The only ones affected by making skill a requirement of vamp form would be those using jewels to attain the needed skill. So you didnt shoot vamp form down, all you did was chase your own tail.

Bake kitsunes? Ever hear of using a dark wolf? It makes it possible to control wolves...much akin to a bushido chars ability to control and use a lesser hiryu. Used to be more powerful but it too was nerfed. Necros used to be able to control cu sidhes.

BTW...nerf implies change. People arent asking for change to the form, but to the requirements of USING it. The only people who are fussing about this being a bad thing are those whom use the loophole to get into form.

@NB-Cats. These changes would indeed affect members of your guild, as they would every other guild too. Change is good, and balance is better.

Okay..... and clearly we have another educated poster.

Firstly, it takes 99 necromancy to cast vampiric embrace, 2nd with the most recent expansions, and gift boxes we were given items that have + necromancy on them. (blood wood spirit, ossian grimoire, mark of travesty, runic fishing poles). Before the most necromancy you could get was +50 from bracers and jewels, So yes, I do think it is the items which are the cause for any blame. But again, the form isn't powerful, so why nerf it? 3 mana regen? 12 stamina regen? Yea... that makes you invincible.... of course we have the resistance to poison, but there are things such as petals, and it doesn't cure lethal.... life leech... it's hardly worth anything.

80 or more REAL skill...... Okay, so if someone only has... let's say 60 necro on their template and they choose to build bracers, bloodwood, and mark into their suit... they shouldn't have access to the skills? Okay, by the same sentiment, necromancers who don't have 85 tame 85 lore, real skill, shouldn't be able to keep a bonded bake kitsune. Control would be fine with me, but bonding out of the question. THAT IS A TAMERS SKILL!!!! WAHHH WAHHH!!!!


PvP will only go down hill with these minds behind it.

 

[Limlight]

1. Moving shot is a little ridiculous.

2. Did I just read someone saying Goose plays a dismount tamer?
lol.....thats MSI..I've never seen Goose on much other then a Mage.

3. I find it rather hilarious that Link named like 5 "major" balance issues and said they NEED TO FIXED. But then says :

PPS - I posted in another topic just a few days ago that Greater Dragons should probably have their damage reduced.

Probably?

So, 25 damage withers are overpowered?

But SAME TIME 50 Physical damage/70 Firebreath attacks arent?

lol....mwahhahahahahhahahaahhahah

Yeah, man...

I know if I can choose between 25 damage withers...
and 1000 HP Demon Beserkers with Fire Breath ...
(This Greaters hit like the Beserkers...but they also get stupid 2 screens away breath)

I am choosing Wither...</sarcasm>

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Bake kitsunes? Ever hear of using a dark wolf? It makes it possible to control wolves...much akin to a bushido chars ability to control and use a lesser hiryu. Used to be more powerful but it too was nerfed. Necros used to be able to control cu sidhes.

Thats great about a dark wolf and all.. But how do you think he BONDED the pets in the first place? If you can do that with 0 taming, then you might have a point. But you cant. He wouldnt be able to get a pet with out using a soul stone, the same way a vamp form char does. owned.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

greater dragons are very overpowered. from hit points to damage output, everyone, even tamers, agree with this.

But can someone explain to me how 4/6 chivalry is not overpowered?
It has instant cures/remove curse. And it has heals for 35 damage for slightly over the cast of a mini heal.

Remove curse, in general, is the most overpowered spell in the game. A necro can cast strangle/curse/corpse/oath/omen on someone and ONE remove curse takes all of that away? And on top of it you only need 5 skill as a minimum to cast it. (So with jack of all trades anyone can cast it) That is not fair at all. I do not understand why ANY caster or ANY kind deserves FOUR fast cast. They took it away from magery (and spellweaving, i believe), they need to work on taking it from chiv next..

 

[Erekose]

Eating an enchanted apple takes zero skill, but I agree that FC should be adjusted for chiv, ONCE THEY FIX THE EXISTING BUGS IN THE GAME.

No more nerfs/adjustments until bugs are fixed and KR is done, please

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

greater dragons are very overpowered. from hit points to damage output, everyone, even tamers, agree with this.

But can someone explain to me how 4/6 chivalry is not overpowered?
It has instant cures/remove curse. And it has heals for 35 damage for slightly over the cast of a mini heal.

Remove curse, in general, is the most overpowered spell in the game. A necro can cast strangle/curse/corpse/oath/omen on someone and ONE remove curse takes all of that away? And on top of it you only need 5 skill as a minimum to cast it. (So with jack of all trades anyone can cast it) That is not fair at all. I do not understand why ANY caster or ANY kind deserves FOUR fast cast. They took it away from magery (and spellweaving, i believe), they need to work on taking it from chiv next..

As I said, if you have an issue with it...make it known to the devs.However I dont think its fair in any discussion to use another problem to make one in discussion go away. In regard to pet bonding, ANY tamer can bond a pet and then stone off taming, and still have a bonded pet...they just cant CONTROL it. A necro can only CONTROL it as long as he uses a dark wolf (which just so happens to be one of the ABILITIES of a necromancer.)

I really dont see what this has to do with using a form without having proper skill OR without having to KEEP ON the skill jewels used to cast it.

Remove curse? Are you kidding me? Is this why you and your brother went from playing necro mages to playing vamp form moving shot archers? Every template should have its counter, and chivalry has ALWAYS been the only counter skill wise to necromancy. At this time the moving shot vamp form archer take the cake in the realm of voerpowered exploit ridden templates, and you know this. Using a guy with bakes as an excuses or a smokescreen...GTFO of here with that nonsense. (if bake dies...who rezzes? A friggin tamer...something the necro CANNOT do.)

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Remove curse? Are you kidding me? Is this why you and your brother went from playing necro mages to playing vamp form moving shot archers? Every template should have its counter, and chivalry has ALWAYS been the only counter skill wise to necromancy. At this time the moving shot vamp form archer take the cake in the realm of voerpowered exploit ridden templates, and you know this. Using a guy with bakes as an excuses or a smokescreen...GTFO of here with that nonsense. (if bake dies...who rezzes? A friggin tamer...something the necro CANNOT do.)

How is remove curse not overpowered? At 40 skill in chivalry you are almost guaranteed to cast remove curse successfully. 40 skill points can nerf 205-240; yeah, that's balanced. I'm not saying remove the spell but at least make it so its minimum skill requirement is 65. This way people who have chivalry as a focal point of their template can still cast it yet random players who have 40 skill points left over after they make their template wont be able to cast it.

The ability to cast vamp form with <99 skill and the ability to bond bake kitsunes with <85 skill should be nerfed. Vamp form is fine but people just using items to cast it and then removing those items should be fixed. Now if they use items to cast it, and then keep those items on there is no problem with that. The same goes for bonding bake kitsunes.

Greater dragons should have a damage cap of 35. They are already tanks so removing the ability to two hit kill fully suited players shouldn't hurt them too much.

Wither is fine the way it is. When you have a group of players casting an area effect spell it is going to kill a bunch of players. The spell of choice just happens to be wither. Nerfing wither wouldn't change much.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

As I said, if you have an issue with it...make it known to the devs.However I dont think its fair in any discussion to use another problem to make one in discussion go away. In regard to pet bonding, ANY tamer can bond a pet and then stone off taming, and still have a bonded pet...they just cant CONTROL it. A necro can only CONTROL it as long as he uses a dark wolf (which just so happens to be one of the ABILITIES of a necromancer.)

I really dont see what this has to do with using a form without having proper skill OR without having to KEEP ON the skill jewels used to cast it.

Remove curse? Are you kidding me? Is this why you and your brother went from playing necro mages to playing vamp form moving shot archers? Every template should have its counter, and chivalry has ALWAYS been the only counter skill wise to necromancy. At this time the moving shot vamp form archer take the cake in the realm of voerpowered exploit ridden templates, and you know this. Using a guy with bakes as an excuses or a smokescreen...GTFO of here with that nonsense. (if bake dies...who rezzes? A friggin tamer...something the necro CANNOT do.)

They go hand in hand. All you have to do is possess some commen sense. They both are *using* skill points that they technically have not attained at some point.

But, you do not believe that a FOUR-SIX remove curse that takes 12 mana to cast and can remove 5 debuffs at once is unfair? Not to mention the fact that it only takes 55 skill to never fail. You think that 55 skill points should be able to nerf 220 needed by necros to cast strangle? If they want to make it fair, people should be required to have 120 chiv to not fail that, up the mana cost, or even remove ONE debuff at a time, instead of up to five.
The skill/mana cost involved does not counter it at all fairly. If you think it does, you probably are using a 4-6 dexer and shouldnt talk.

And for the record, i have played a necro mage since before they had ANY fast cast. And i have never played a dexer or an archer, so i think you are a very misinformed person.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

i posted while bruce was posting. But i agree with the majority of his post. Except i think people using items to get vamp form or bond bakes is a creative means of the game and it shouldnt be taken out. It allows for more diverse and fun templates. I dont use either, so obviously the nerf would only help me, before anyone starts in on me for this..

 

[Erekose]

Let's just take away ALL item properties. Including LRC, skill, HCI, DCI, DI, etc. Just GM crafted items. Nothing runic.

Better? No? They let's all stop crying nerf every time someone's feelings get hurt because they lost a fight

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Let's just take away ALL item properties. Including LRC, skill, HCI, DCI, DI, etc. Just GM crafted items. Nothing runic.

Better? No? They let's all stop crying nerf every time someone's feelings get hurt because they lost a fight

agreed.

 

[JC the Builder]

Ok.....

So you want to nerf the ability to stone on necro, cast vampiric embrace, and soulstone off necromancy.

But you DON"T want to nerf stoning taming on to bond powerful pets? You're flip flopping left and right.

I decide to focus on a few dedicated issues rather than spend time investigating and analyzing how to fix every PVP issue. That is the job of the developers.

In my opinion Greater Dragons are not as big an unbalance as Wither because they can only target one player at a time. Wither hits an unlimited number of targets at the same time. So while you are trying to make a big fuss over 100 damage (40 melee and 60 fire breath), I am trying to point out that Wither can do a lot more.

3. I find it rather hilarious that Link named like 5 "major" balance issues and said they NEED TO FIXED. But then says :

PPS - I posted in another topic just a few days ago that Greater Dragons should probably have their damage reduced.

Probably?

So, 25 damage withers are overpowered?

But SAME TIME 50 Physical damage/70 Firebreath attacks arent?

lol....mwahhahahahahhahahaahhahah

I didn't rank any of the balance issues. I also intentionally didn't list every PVP issue because I wanted other people to contribute with them. But thus far people are just saying Greater Dragons are unbalanced instead of giving hard information on why they are and what they should be toned down to.

Also it is 40 damage melee and 60 damage fire breath against all 70's resistances. I even made a video of me taking damage from a Greater Dragon and living for almost two minutes a few months ago.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v6511536QxZHHWDW

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

They go hand in hand. All you have to do is possess some commen sense. They both are *using* skill points that they technically have not attained at some point.

But, you do not believe that a FOUR-SIX remove curse that takes 12 mana to cast and can remove 5 debuffs at once is unfair? Not to mention the fact that it only takes 55 skill to never fail. You think that 55 skill points should be able to nerf 220 needed by necros to cast strangle? If they want to make it fair, people should be required to have 120 chiv to not fail that, up the mana cost, or even remove ONE debuff at a time, instead of up to five.
The skill/mana cost involved does not counter it at all fairly. If you think it does, you probably are using a 4-6 dexer and shouldnt talk.

And for the record, i have played a necro mage since before they had ANY fast cast. And i have never played a dexer or an archer, so i think you are a very misinformed person.

Heh..common sense eh? As I said before, if you have an issue with something bring it up as a problem. This is more effective than using one problem to smokescreen another.

Chivalry? I have 60 chivalry on my mage...with 2/6 casting. It is the only COUNTER beside carrying apples and lots of pots to necromancy. Besides, you mention how your *whole* 220-240 skill points get made useless...how? You still can recast debuffs, you have the same barrage of mage spells I have, and on top of that you have a free weapon skill for the price of a crystalline ring. That brings the total to a free wep skill with defense chance and hit spell, a full repitoire of necro spells, and a full book of mage spells. If you cant make use of a template like that to kill a 4/6 chiv dexer you have serious issues. (I played on that template two nights ago and had absolutely no issue killing 4/6 chiv dexxers...so whats your problem?)

My apologies about the archer template, I assumed you were Beam, your brothers archer sidekick.

And no...you didnt play necro mage before they had FC...as the two came out AT THE SAME TIME with the release of AoS. DUH!

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Heh..common sense eh? As I said before, if you have an issue with something bring it up as a problem. This is more effective than using one problem to smokescreen another.

Chivalry? I have 60 chivalry on my mage...with 2/6 casting. It is the only COUNTER beside carrying apples and lots of pots to necromancy. Besides, you mention how your *whole* 220-240 skill points get made useless...how? You still can recast debuffs, you have the same barrage of mage spells I have, and on top of that you have a free weapon skill for the price of a crystalline ring. That brings the total to a free wep skill with defense chance and hit spell, a full repitoire of necro spells, and a full book of mage spells. If you cant make use of a template like that to kill a 4/6 chiv dexer you have serious issues. (I played on that template two nights ago and had absolutely no issue killing 4/6 chiv dexxers...so whats your problem?)

My apologies about the archer template, I assumed you were Beam, your brothers archer sidekick.

And no...you didnt play necro mage before they had FC...as the two came out AT THE SAME TIME with the release of AoS. DUH!

2/6 casting is a fair casting for chivalry. I kill 4/6 dexers easily. This is not a fix for me. It is for the game in general. Casting five debuffs on someone for them to instantly remove curse ALL of them for 12 mana is not mana efficient for a necro. Any template can use a mage wep, not just necros... you are bringing up items into a skills conversation, which doesnt matter. 20-55 skill points to nerf 200-240 is completely overpowered. They need to adjust the fast cast and then take one of my suggestions for remove curse to make it fair.

And since you are misinformed (yet again) there was a cap of 0 fast cast on necromancy for a very long time (hence NO fast cast). Gain the knowledge on a subject before you talk because when you have no idea what you are talking about it is annoying.

 

[Limlight]

I didn't rank any of the balance issues. I also intentionally didn't list every PVP issue because I wanted other people to contribute with them. But thus far people are just saying Greater Dragons are unbalanced instead of giving hard information on why they are and what they should be toned down to.

Also it is 40 damage melee and 60 damage fire breath against all 70's resistances. I even made a video of me taking damage from a Greater Dragon and living for almost two minutes a few months ago.

1. You werent cursed or Corpse Skinned like most of us are..

2. I have no idea what kind of template you used...you could have used a 120 parry mage with 45 DCI and inscription and 120 wrestle for all I know...
lol...

3. You are in protection....which barely anyone plays in...I do...but its well known I do...Chewie does and a select few others...
Most dont...try that crap without protection...lol..

4. Plenty of people gave you reasons they need to be nerfed.
A. Damage is too high.
B. Their HP is too high for their power.
C. Anyone using a Greater uses bolas or dismount weapons...
If someone is dismounted and then hit with a 40 physical..they dont have time to stop in protection and heal...because almost every dismount tamer will then cast on you...so you have to run...and when you run...the fireball for 60 damage is right behind you...combined with FS and other spells.

I am sorry Link...but I cant take you serious on your opinions of what needs to change...when you clearly lie through the teeth about Greaters not being over-powered.