"Tamers are too good in PVP they need to be nerfed!!!"

[UltimaSword]

.......Or people need to stop crying. I've seen on the boards lately a trend of whining about tamers. It has always existed but it is annoying me now.

Overall I have only seen few actual intelligent ways to make tamers a bit more balanced I guess I could say. Like adding stat requirements: Dex for Vet, Intel to Tame, and Str to Command. Among other things. But the majority is people just saying "they are too powerful in pvp take them out of fel" or some other nonsense.

First get this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance a video game with classes. IMPOSSIBLE. I am sure most of you know this but by some comments I see it seems people forget.

Now obviously a tamer has good advantages. But there are techniques in which one lures away the pets or some way kills the tamer first. Yes a tamer can hide in the GZ or a house while screaming "all kill" but that is not the skills fault just the fault of how the safe zones for blues or reds work.

I am tired its late I just wanted to throw my opinion out there regardless of how bad I did it. I'd like to hear some logical arguments against what I said. None of that, "What are you stupid?" crap and the like.

 

[legendsguy]

but it -does- take skill to type 'all kill'! really, it does! i think tamers are the best pvpers out there 'cause they don't waste their time with actually fighting or even being visible. all you have to do is have your pet do all the work and declare victory afterwards. it's genius!

 

[Eslake]

And I can't help but laugh.

Anyone who comes on here complaining about Tamers in PvP, doesn't PvP.

What you see are these people who buy up 60mil suits peppered with artifacts, fully insured, and UM their skills to the current uber gimplate, and head off to Yew moongate (or the current hot spot) and start ganking injured characters and think they're impressing someone.

When someone comes along and ignores their gear-based survivability, they whine rather than learning any actual skills at PvPing. After all, their suits cost 10s of millions, nobody should ever be able to kill them right?


Here's a slap in the face to any more so-called PvPers who whine about greater dragons or dread horses.
My MINER had one sicked on him this morning in the caves West of Britain. He not only didn't die, but managed to avoid the GD and kill the tamer. (remember this is in a cave no less)

So you understand how pathetic whining about them makes you look... my miner has 0 in all combat skills, 0 resist, 0 eval, and only 90s magery. He had a pack horse and fire beetle, no weapon (as if it would have done any good) and no gear-resist over 45. *the pack horse survived too*

 

[Samaira]

Nerf miners!!!1!

 

[Masumatek]

Rune beetles were overpowered enough. With the recent additions, I really don't know what to think. The devs are either blind or just don't care. Which is exactly how I'd describe people supporting tamers in their current state in PvP. Personally, I don't feel pets belong in PvP at all. Period. But I'd settle for them remaining so long as they were as closed to balanced as possible. I'd say I don't think it can get further away from balanced than it is now but then the devs would prove me wrong soon enough.

 

[Dreadlord Galaad]

ooooh yeah ! Tamers are too good in pvp but dont nerf them !
Most of them give 6000-7000 gp a kill

 

[Omnicron]

This thread makes me sick. You really dont see a problem with a Dragon that can one hit kill somoene? I mean seriously you need what, 220ish skill points(tame and lore) to kill someone and negate 720 points plus someones suit? WHILE standing in a guard zone, while hiding? I mean sure you can add other skills like ninja and magery, but you only need a bola 220ish skill points and a greater dragon...

 

[Mistura]

.......Or people need to stop crying. I've seen on the boards lately a trend of whining about tamers. It has always existed but it is annoying me now.

Overall I have only seen few actual intelligent ways to make tamers a bit more balanced I guess I could say. Like adding stat requirements: Dex for Vet, Intel to Tame, and Str to Command. Among other things. But the majority is people just saying "they are too powerful in pvp take them out of fel" or some other nonsense.

First get this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance a video game with classes. IMPOSSIBLE. I am sure most of you know this but by some comments I see it seems people forget.

Now obviously a tamer has good advantages. But there are techniques in which one lures away the pets or some way kills the tamer first. Yes a tamer can hide in the GZ or a house while screaming "all kill" but that is not the skills fault just the fault of how the safe zones for blues or reds work.

I am tired its late I just wanted to throw my opinion out there regardless of how bad I did it. I'd like to hear some logical arguments against what I said. None of that, "What are you stupid?" crap and the like.

LOL

Maybe you should refrain from posting when your tired and emotional.

This is one of the biggest piles of nonesense i've read in qutie a while.

Do one ---->

 

[Mistura]

And I can't help but laugh.

Anyone who comes on here complaining about Tamers in PvP, doesn't PvP.

What you see are these people who buy up 60mil suits peppered with artifacts, fully insured, and UM their skills to the current uber gimplate, and head off to Yew moongate (or the current hot spot) and start ganking injured characters and think they're impressing someone.

When someone comes along and ignores their gear-based survivability, they whine rather than learning any actual skills at PvPing. After all, their suits cost 10s of millions, nobody should ever be able to kill them right?


Here's a slap in the face to any more so-called PvPers who whine about greater dragons or dread horses.
My MINER had one sicked on him this morning in the caves West of Britain. He not only didn't die, but managed to avoid the GD and kill the tamer. (remember this is in a cave no less)

So you understand how pathetic whining about them makes you look... my miner has 0 in all combat skills, 0 resist, 0 eval, and only 90s magery. He had a pack horse and fire beetle, no weapon (as if it would have done any good) and no gear-resist over 45. *the pack horse survived too*

Call me a big cynic but i flat out don't believe you.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Call me a big cynic .

Ok.......








You're a big cynic.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You'd like to hear some logical arguments, ok...

Player vs player damage (among other things) in many areas has been capped, those caps reflect the resists, hp and skills of what templates are viable in PvP. Pets currently ignore damage caps, stopping to cast, casting and using specials at the same time, specials landing even when they miss and possibly some more.

If pet vs player damage was to start following similar rules to player vs player rules then there would be a lot less to complain about.

Maybe range check on fire breath?
Maybe cap melee and breath damage?
Maybe make them pause when casting?
Maybe give them the double mana cost for specials used within 3s of each other?
Maybe make specials not land even when the melee misses?

I'm sure the tamer fans would consider this a nerf but consider that the tamer, plus a pet following the rules that players have to would still be a 2v1 and would still put them at an advantage. As the caps would only be in place when the pet is attacking a player it would have no effect on the pets in PvM (on any facet) so they would still be viable for killing champs etc.

They removed or capped certain abilities in the Ninjitsu skill (I forget which it was a long time ago) that allowed two hit kills, yet at that time it was still possible for a rune beetle to drop resists to 0. Through many of the two hit kill eras pets have had little or nothing done to them when many were capable of the same thing that were being changed in other skills to bring them more in line with the damage a player can handle.

 

[Sarphus]

This thread makes me sick. You really dont see a problem with a Dragon that can one hit kill somoene? I mean seriously you need what, 220ish skill points(tame and lore) to kill someone and negate 720 points plus someones suit? WHILE standing in a guard zone, while hiding? I mean sure you can add other skills like ninja and magery, but you only need a bola 220ish skill points and a greater dragon...

If you're getting 1 hit killed, you need to stop pvping naked. Granted, you can get 1 hit killed by a mage if you're naked. MAGES ARE OVERPOWERED!!!

I'm kinda tired of this whole argument. Not only is it a weak argument, but the argument complaints don't stop even after tamers get nerfed out of reasonable usefulness.

I'm totally in favor of strongly encouraging tamers to have vet, but I doubt doing that will make people stop crying, because the massive nerf to pet movement speed hasn't. People are still crying even though a pet is so slow that you can easily outrun them on foot.

Oh, and bards still crush tamers. It's not my fault that your pvp group is only playing a subset of the entire game. If you're fighting mass tamers, bring bards and stop crying.

The whole debate reminds me of something I saw on engrish once

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

If you're getting 1 hit killed, you need to stop pvping naked. Granted, you can get 1 hit killed by a mage if you're naked. MAGES ARE OVERPOWERED!!!

In a 70s suit a GD can two hit kill. In a 70s suit a mage can 3 hit kill at best and that is assuming that the player has only 100 hp and is already cursed. So in reality a mage has to cast 3 easily disrupted spells and 1 quick one to kill someone while a dragon just has to hit someone twice.

I'm kinda tired of this whole argument. Not only is it a weak argument, but the argument complaints don't stop even after tamers get nerfed out of reasonable usefulness.

If tamers weren't useful they wouldn't be one of the most popular classes.

People are still crying even though a pet is so slow that you can easily outrun them on foot.

I love it when people mention that dragons are slow and think that is a valid point. See the thing is even though I can outrun a dragon I can still be killed by the same dragon 2-3 screens away.

Oh, and bards still crush tamers. It's not my fault that your pvp group is only playing a subset of the entire game. If you're fighting mass tamers, bring bards and stop crying.

Yes that makes sense! Let's bring PVM characters to a PVP fight. While it would work anyone with minor intelligence should see what is wrong with that.

 

[Mistura]

Ok.......








You're a big cynic.

Touche!
:gun:

 

[Yalp]

OMG.. again? Really? Truly?

I think this thread is started again and again, by the same few people, because their arguments are dispatched by intelligent rebuttals in the previous threads. So they start a new thread, which swells to hundreds of posts, degrades into name calling and personal insults, and the same result is reached.. intelligent rebuttals proving them wrong.

I post here myself, because I fear the dev's will read these threads and believe the whining is an accurate representation deserving of action.

Tamer + pet is more powerful than SOME templates, but not ALL templates. This is the definition of balanced!


LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[Violence]

You are all so keen on defending your precious tamers, offering a very reasonable solution- Bring Bards!! YAY SOMEONE GOT IT. Saved the day!

I find Tamers defending their uberness really idiotic though. They were mostly the same group who caused the Ninjitsu nerf but now that their template is on stake they come up with such pretty solutions... How cute. Back then they were all crying NERF because their PvP (in-)experience never allowed them to figure out a solution against DS. As a result the whole skill is USELESS. Even Animal Form is.


And you didn't really believe they were gonna nerf tamers, did you? They are #2 best customers after mages and #1 PvM template, of all PvP and PvM players.

As for the guy saying he had virtually no skills and killed a tamer? BS. What did you do, Explo Pot with 500% EP through hack? Or told your beetle to attack and the other guy didn't have time to use his "All Kill"?
:bowdown:

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Maybe range check on fire breath?
Maybe cap melee and breath damage?
Maybe make them pause when casting?
Maybe give them the double mana cost for specials used within 3s of each other?
Maybe make specials not land even when the melee misses?

Excellent ideas. I suppose it makes sense that these would come straight from God...la

 

[G.v.P]

I think the miner who said he ran away mined a bit too long, fell asleep, and had a wonderful dream.

My dragon does about 40 damage a hit and 57 firebreath at max hp (unblessed), not counting spells. It all depends on luck, and corpse skin, and other factors, but it's possible to kill someone in roughly two seconds using a greater dragon, maybe not one hit.

Dread horses do around 30 a hit with a bit more than 37 firebreath at max hp (unblessed). Trained Fire Beetles can kill small mobs fairly easy ;P, don't know about tamers.

 

[G.v.P]

Dragons are not as useful as mounts are. Mount macros (dismount/remount macros) make for very fast kills. People used to use Hiryus, but the dismount delay gave people time to fight the tamer, whereas there is no delay for Cu Sidhes or Dread Horses. It's also hard to tell what the black horse is until you're hit by it, haha, but you can usually tell what the char is by how they are dressed.

 

[MoonglowMerchant]

.......Or people need to stop crying. I've seen on the boards lately a trend of whining about tamers. It has always existed but it is annoying me now.

Overall I have only seen few actual intelligent ways to make tamers a bit more balanced I guess I could say. Like adding stat requirements: Dex for Vet, Intel to Tame, and Str to Command. Among other things. But the majority is people just saying "they are too powerful in pvp take them out of fel" or some other nonsense.

First get this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to balance a video game with classes. IMPOSSIBLE. I am sure most of you know this but by some comments I see it seems people forget.

Now obviously a tamer has good advantages. But there are techniques in which one lures away the pets or some way kills the tamer first. Yes a tamer can hide in the GZ or a house while screaming "all kill" but that is not the skills fault just the fault of how the safe zones for blues or reds work.

I am tired its late I just wanted to throw my opinion out there regardless of how bad I did it. I'd like to hear some logical arguments against what I said. None of that, "What are you stupid?" crap and the like.

Tamers aren't overpowered for PvP. Greater Dragons 90 point breath damage is overpowered.

They just need to cap damage from that in PvP.

Rune beetles are still overpowered, but no one is using them now since the dragons are much harder to kill.

BTW...you can't lure pets away anymore. They fixed that.

 

[Sarphus]

I think the miner who said he ran away mined a bit too long, fell asleep, and had a wonderful dream.

My dragon does about 40 damage a hit and 57 firebreath at max hp (unblessed), not counting spells. It all depends on luck, and corpse skin, and other factors, but it's possible to kill someone in roughly two seconds using a greater dragon, maybe not one hit.

Dread horses do around 30 a hit with a bit more than 37 firebreath at max hp (unblessed). Trained Fire Beetles can kill small mobs fairly easy ;P, don't know about tamers.

Even though it is possible to get lucky and get an easy kill, it is a roll of the dice. Personally, I don't use a greater dragon in pvp, because I don't ever use strategies that involve just getting lucky to roll a kill. I prefer having flexibility and the ability to make choices to impact my success. Using a GD is all about rolling the dice and hoping you get lucky. Also, it's a horribly rigid strategy, so if you don't get lucky, you're out flapping in the breeze.

Good pvpers beat tamers that use GD. I beat them pretty much every time and I don't even consider myself a good pvper.

 

[Sarphus]

Dragons are not as useful as mounts are. Mount macros (dismount/remount macros) make for very fast kills. People used to use Hiryus, but the dismount delay gave people time to fight the tamer, whereas there is no delay for Cu Sidhes or Dread Horses. It's also hard to tell what the black horse is until you're hit by it, haha, but you can usually tell what the char is by how they are dressed.

I agree with this. It's a heck of a lot easier to use mounted pets and cheese combos + gimplates than it is to use a greater dragon.

I think some kind of nerf to dismount combos could be balanced. I don't think the problem is the pets, though. I think the problem is the mechanics of mounts and pvp in general. Also, part of the problem is caused by gimplates that have taming on them, but no vet. I posted earlier how that could be fixed. I guaruntee you that you can kill people's pets no matter what they do if you know how to do it, and if they are losing 5 full skill points each death, no tamer in his right mind will run without vet.

in short, cu sidhe, dread war horse and hiryu are all more effective pvp pets than a greater dragon.

frenzied ostards and beetle/bake are also more consistantly effective.

 

[Limlight]

Tamers are garbage...

Now, Dismount Tamers...that crap is ********. You will never live after being dismounted and had a Greater sicked on you.

 

[Lady_Mina]

People seriously need to stop believing in the illusion that there actualy still is PvP.

Real PvP died in 2003.

And i think what we've learned the past years is...that EA doesn't 'undo' things...and they sure as hell..never check the stratics boards for 'what the costumers think'.
They just want you to stfu..and give your 16 dollars a month.

So there's no point to whine on the boards..

 

[Omnicron]

People seriously need to stop believing in the illusion that there actualy still is PvP.

Real PvP died in 2003.

And i think what we've learned the past years is...that EA doesn't 'undo' things...and they sure as hell..never check the stratics boards for 'what the costumers think'.
They just want you to stfu..and give your 16 dollars a month.

So there's no point to whine on the boards..

Im not going to believe you have any idea of what your talking about when you cant even get the monthly payment amount right...

Also, if you want to really get into it, pvp died when publish 16 was introduced, then really killed when AoS hit back in 02ish...

 

[Lord Kotan]

Bonded G-dragons on seige are unfair though...

 

[Scratch]

maybe not be able to say all kill for 8 sec after dismounting would solve the one problem
super drag fireball should be reduced in damage
super drag casting speed needs slowed down to a more realistic speed they are faster than any player mage for sure

 

[Sarphus]

Bonded G-dragons on seige are unfair though...

I agree with that too... bonding as a system is difficult if not impossible to balance on siege.

 

[Yalp]

um.... speaking of casting speeds.. aren't there some bladed weaps, favored by pvp, with fast swing speeds? able to do higher dps then others? with mods and special moves that make the weap more damaging than others? added to it di mods on tali's jewls and armor and... hmm.

I'd like to see someone work out the math of the dps of all offensive weapons in pvp .. pet and metal combined... then we can have an intelligent conversation over whether greaters have an upper hand. I suspect the information might surprise many tamer haters.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[o2bavr6]

This topic was beat to death in the last post but I will say this.

I would be ok with them leaving tamers as they are, but I would like to see everone in Fell be the same color, either Red or Orange.

I know people will complain and say that they have a house in fel for their crafter, bla bla bla.

But the way I see it is that being red in Fel these days is a fashion statement and nothing more. The blues at yew gate PK jsut as much but use the gate as a crutch.

I say remove the crutch, if you aren't good enough to defend yourself in Fel, then move to tram. If you have a house in Fel, mark a rune there to come and go.

In the end it will probably kill Fell even more since most of the blues at the gate are spineless newbies who can mostly only gank, tamers included, so Fell will end up being more of a wasteland than it is.

 

[o2bavr6]

Also, if you want to really get into it, pvp died when publish 16 was introduced, then really killed when AoS hit back in 02ish...

SO TRUE!!

 

[Sarphus]

um.... speaking of casting speeds.. aren't there some bladed weaps, favored by pvp, with fast swing speeds? able to do higher dps then others? with mods and special moves that make the weap more damaging than others? added to it di mods on tali's jewls and armor and... hmm.

I'd like to see someone work out the math of the dps of all offensive weapons in pvp .. pet and metal combined... then we can have an intelligent conversation over whether greaters have an upper hand. I suspect the information might surprise many tamer haters.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

yes, and clearly the only logical course of action is to make every action in UO do exactly the same damage no matter what choice the player makes. Every 1 on 1 fight should end in both parties dieing no matter what decisions they make.

Absolute balance is boring...

 

[Yalp]

I think you've hit the bullseye at the very heart of their argument Sarphus!

Tamer + pet are more powerful than SOME templates, but not ALL templates!

You can't make every thing in the game exactly equal. Personally, I'd love to see a nuclear option for mule characters. Get even for all those times we were chopping wood or mining along the mountain and got whacked because some dufus with a blade saw an easy atm machine.

Once a month.. crafters with no offensive skill or weapons can use special artie bracelet in combination with green truffle found only at the top of mount vesuvius on the 5th wednesday of the month, gotten first by chopping down cherry tree and then mining through the mud to acquire it. Then they can go to the yew moongate to nuke the entire fel ruleset.. collecting gold in multiples of 10000 per red killed.

LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM

 

[Crystilastamous]

Disco archer with a horselord and kill a greater dragon in three swings.... (double strike)


get over dragons people.



If you don't like something, make a template to counter it. losers.

 

[the 4th man]

Ok, balance is for whiners, ya either conform, create tactics or quit......it's that simple.

Tamers have a weapon, it's a pet.....deal with it. If you can't beat someone, cry to your family, (they'll laugh so hard) but not here.......

 

[Ailish]

For the hell of it, this last week I have been PvPing on my tamer. A total Trammy char. Dressed in Sorcerer's Suit. Using either a fully trained Greater Dragon or 2 Bake Kitsune's, depending on the situation and the opposition (like, say, they have a dragon, better put the bake's away).

Here is what I saw. My dragon NEVER, NEVER one-hit killed anyone. Not one. I must have attacked 15 different people, most of them at least 4-5 times each. NOT ONE DIED THE MOMENT THE DRAG WAS ON THEM! I, however, died often The bake's never killed someone instantly, or even quickly. They did, however, lead us to the person who was running (why? Bakes are easy to kill!)

I had at least 2 different Greater's sic'd on me, several times .... I never insta-died from it. Not once. Usually did not even get half lifed. However, when I had 2 necro-mages on me I died very rapidly everytime.

I DID have an amusing moment where I pushed the east bridge of Despise with my dragon and just as I dispelled field on the last barrier and the dragon headed onto the island I was killed. When I came back everyone on the island was dead. The only thing we can figure is they just were not used to fighting FULLY TRAINED greaters, and they stupidly all attacked it and let it kill them without attempting any intelligent approach to the situation (like cross-fielding it, or putting their dragon on it before attacking it). That is really the only explanation, because they did the same thing to us, and we lived just fine by ignoring said dragon. It was really a priceless moment in the stupidity of the other team.

I also spent time with some wild greaters, allowing them to firebreath me. Guess what ... even the ones with super-high skills (140ish) consistently hit me for 60 damage. Not 61, not 59, EXACTLY 60 every single time. Now, the teleport mele hurt a bit more ... in the area of 70 - but I had protection on so my physical resist was around 62. Still, it did hurt a fair bit. However, while watching my dragon jump on people, they just were not taking that kind of damage. Goodness knows I wish they had, but they didnt.

So, in 3 days, several hours each day, of attacking all red opposition with either a greater dragon or 2 bake kitsunes, I managed to get exactly 3 kills. I know because I kept close track. I am now seeker plus one dot in justice. According to all the "whiners" who say how these things one-hit-kill, I should be knight! Too bad for me you guys are just plain wrong.

 

[Sneaky Que]

Tamers are not OP in PvP, they are the (probably) easiest template to play PvP wise, takes no (or very little) skill compared to just about anything else, even an archer.

G Dragons should never have been made tamable at all, they should remove them from players ASAP. They are a great idea to have in the game, UBER Dragons were needed again, however terrible idea to let them be tamed.