A plea for Risk V Reward

[Fayled Dhreams]

Um no, push through is a pain when ur stam is low,the method of travel is different meaning you have to walk the entire dungeon to get to where your going being you cant recall in or out in fel unlike tram where you can recall to shame lvl4 blood ele fill up recall out, and while running out full of a fel dungeon you have a risk at meeting a pk while over weight or soon to be after a curse. being that most fel dungeons are champ spawn areas theres a good chance you can get spotted by the local zerg.

yep ... known and established ... that is as it was BEFORE the map points were added ... huh? like I allowed for above.
(by the way ...?only dungeon dwellers can will drop maps? .... I think no .... more there ... but ... not exclusive)
now ...
+ points for maps = increased reward ... yes?

??? wheres the increased risk ???
(op premised on "risk vs reward" ...increased reward identified .... looking for increased risk now ... for MORE point value)

"A plea for Risk V Reward" ... the "reward" is + ... OP asking for ++ ...


So ...

Soooo, we've put down all the arguments against risk vs reward. Can we get some dev attention?

NO ... you haven't gained ANY ground ...
Fel is Just As "dangerous" (just a sec .... )

JUST as dangerous as before .... the Reward for one item was increased ... want more? INCREASE THE RISK .... simple math

 

[Azureal]

To the OP:

You want an increased reward for the risks associated with treasure map hunting in Felucca, and yet almost all of your arguments in response to Fayled dont actually apply to TMap hunting? Umm...what?

You mention:

Khaldun
Necro Casting Mobs
Recalling into dungeons
Felucca Dungeons in General

Go ahead and refute arguments till your blue in the face, but atleast make them applicable to the argument at hand, otherwise it just looks stupid.

And asking for Dev input? Hahahaha.

...lolwut?

 

[phantus]

Soooo, we've put down all the arguments against risk vs reward. Can we get some dev attention?

You've done nothing but cry because you think you should get some kind of prize for playing in felucca and being at risk of being attacked. Getting maps in felucca is easy. Period. End of story newb.

You want some risk. Ask for the devs to put a special map on a creature in fel that only spawns in a small area. Then you will have risk getting the map because the guilds that rule the spawns will rule it. Thus you will have risk. All you want is a way to find a spot in a dungeon noone goes to for collecting maps at a higher value. That's a pathetic reward for whatever the hell you call risk.

 

[Ancient Sosarian]

Another Fellucan WHINE,

Good Grief. Why don't we tailor the entire game to the smallest sub-set of its player base (oozing with sarcasm).

Felluca should receive NO benes; it already receives far too many that it SHOULD NOT!

Quit Crying for more. Puhleeeeeze, quit the whining and crying, and complaining AND be happy for the undeserved benes already bestowed upon thee.

An SoS

 

[Omnius]

yep ... known and established ... that is as it was BEFORE the map points were added ... huh? like I allowed for above.
(by the way ...?only dungeon dwellers can will drop maps? .... I think no .... more there ... but ... not exclusive)
now ...
+ points for maps = increased reward ... yes?

??? wheres the increased risk ???
(op premised on "risk vs reward" ...increased reward identified .... looking for increased risk now ... for MORE point value)

"A plea for Risk V Reward" ... the "reward" is + ... OP asking for ++ ...


So ...

NO ... you haven't gained ANY ground ...
Fel is Just As "dangerous" (just a sec .... )

JUST as dangerous as before .... the Reward for one item was increased ... want more? INCREASE THE RISK .... simple math

Uhhhh... I think i know where you keep getting lost. Its not that felucca is more dangerous, its that trammel being not dangerous and rewards from trammel obtained maps being equal to rewards obtained in dangerous felucca are equal. This is in direct contradiction of the risk vs reward principle which guides much of this games development. You don't have have to increase the risks in felucca more for risk vs reward to kick in, the risk is there, the rewards aren't in this case.

If you can't see the logic of why maps obtained in relative safety shouldn't be granted equal value to those obtained in danger, this is really more your own issue to work out on your own time. It's more than well established that you are just spinning your wheels at this point. And please, post in a more coherent manner. You have this crazy flow of consciousness thing going on that is nearly impossible to follow.

 

[Omnius]

To the OP:

You want an increased reward for the risks associated with treasure map hunting in Felucca, and yet almost all of your arguments in response to Fayled dont actually apply to TMap hunting? Umm...what?

The increased rewards for hunting in felucca are hindered by folks like you claiming that there is no danger in obtaining maps in felucca vs obtaining maps in trammel. Besides the fact that this is an established fact behind my argument. You two both are either trying to divert the argument from what makes sense or you are both drunk non-stop. The t-hunt is barely even relevant to the examples you listed below. Those are very relevant to obtaining the maps in the first place!!!!!!! If you can't figure that out, too bad, you should go take an adderall or something.

Push-through
Khaldun
Recalling into dungeons
Felucca Dungeons in General
PKing
Fewer numbers of locations to produce felucca tmaps

Are these not significant difficulties that exist in felucca or not? With most above ground spawn in felucca non-existant, almost all high end maps MUST be obtained in dungeons or a small limited number of hunting areas which are highly frequented and thus inherently dangerous in the felucca ruleset. Again, if you don't understand that, it's your own problem to work out on your own time. I've made these points, you're just spinning your wheels trying to divert a solid argument from the core points.

Go ahead and refute arguments till your blue in the face, but atleast make them applicable to the argument at hand, otherwise it just looks stupid.

I've made mince meat out of all the arguments against scaling the value of points from tmaps to take into account the increased risks and inherent difficulties of obtaining tmaps in felucca vs those obtained in the almost absolute safety of trammel with nearly four times more area to obtain them in. And attacking my intelligence, really only shows you aren't reading my posts but rather responding automatically to anything mentioning felucca in a negative manner. It's okay, some of you folks are obsessed with the tram/fel fight but you're so off track here it just looks silly.

And asking for Dev input? Hahahaha.

The most recent patch reinforced developer commitment to risk vs reward, it's only fair for them to comment on why or why not they failed to take into account here or how they will rectify such an easy oversight.

...lolwut?

You and fayled, fail at making any arguments. The entire basis of your responses to me have been to try and divert the argument down awkward paths and demand more risks added to felucca if those maps obtained in an area of vastly more risks are to receive rewards which scale to the danger.


And fayled, adding the rewards for all maps and then claiming that is the increased reward for risk doesn't even make sense when maps obtained in safety are given an equal reward.

RISK(Felucca ruleset and all the significant obstacles to obtaining tmaps in felucca has been well established and is only refuted by a few in the world is flat crew) vs Reward (you aren't rewarded for taking on those established risks if people who didn't take those risks gain an EQUAL reward for no risk).

If maps are all given equal value regardless of facet then maps obtained at significantly higher risk facet are not receiving an increased reward.

I can't make it more simple than that, a small child would follow such an easy chain of logic.

 

[Omnius]

You've done nothing but cry because you think you should get some kind of prize for playing in felucca and being at risk of being attacked. Getting maps in felucca is easy. Period. End of story newb.

You want some risk. Ask for the devs to put a special map on a creature in fel that only spawns in a small area. Then you will have risk getting the map because the guilds that rule the spawns will rule it. Thus you will have risk. All you want is a way to find a spot in a dungeon noone goes to for collecting maps at a higher value. That's a pathetic reward for whatever the hell you call risk.

Flaming and trolling. More from the trammel crew. Nice way to try and attack the poster rather than present a cogent argument. You fail.

 

[Omnius]

Another Fellucan WHINE,

Good Grief. Why don't we tailor the entire game to the smallest sub-set of its player base (oozing with sarcasm).

If a small subset of players is willing to gamble for increased rewards despite the vastly higher risks, why not?

Felluca should receive NO benes; it already receives far too many that it SHOULD NOT!

The opinion of a vocal few posters on these forums only. The developers feel otherwise.

Quit Crying for more. Puhleeeeeze, quit the whining and crying, and complaining AND be happy for the undeserved benes already bestowed upon thee.

More trolling and flaming.

An SoS

huh?

 

[Beerman72]

omnius, give it up already. the only people winning anything in this thread are those who have not wasted time reading it. you understand that right?

Perhaps you ought to consider the maps being in fel AS their increased reward. In addition consider that this event is about *cleaning up britannia*. Last I knew Sosaria was the only place one could get paid for turning in thier junk, and we should be happy they are taking it! Heck, I have never met a garbage man who assigned my sears catalog more value than my pennies one. They all go to the same place and all I get for em is an empty can. *sighs*

 

[Omnius]

omnius, give it up already. the only people winning anything in this thread are those who have not wasted time reading it. you understand that right?

Perhaps you ought to consider the maps being in fel AS their increased reward. In addition consider that this event is about *cleaning up britannia*. Last I knew Sosaria was the only place one could get paid for turning in thier junk, and we should be happy they are taking it! Heck, I have never met a garbage man who assigned my sears catalog more value than my pennies one. They all go to the same place and all I get for em is an empty can. *sighs*

No but I go to the scrap yard all the time and they assign all sorts of value for the things I turn in. Tin, copper, all sorts of junk is worth heavy bank in the real world.

Basically, Its copper vs aluminum and people are claiming the aluminum despite being vastly more common and easily obtained should garner more than copper scrap. Unfortunately, things that are harder to obtain or have fewer sources to obtain it from are logically scrapped for a lot more money.

 

[Beerman72]

If a small subset of players is willing to gamble for increased rewards despite the vastly higher risks, why not?

they already get increased reward. you do loot the creatures right? did you forget they have double loot in Fel? risk vs. reward already solved.

The opinion of a vocal few posters on these forums only. The developers feel otherwise.

Uh no, wrong. If the devs felt otherwise they would give more points to fel maps. *hint hint*

More trolling and flaming.

arguing a moot point often times results in flames and trolling. arguing btw is a prime example of trolling, as it does not allow for the dynamics of a proper conversation to progress.

huh?

pretty sure he meant an MIB.

 

[ColterDC]

Another Fellucan WHINE

Another person who knows nothing about Fel talking out their arse.

Doing anything in Fel is riskier and more of a challenge. Disagree all you want it doesn't change the fact that it is true.


**For the record I don't have any maps and really couldn't care less if the point values were increased for Fel maps. But I am sick of stupid people who won't accept that Fel has more risk and a greater challenge level than Tram.

 

[Hunter Moon]

This post is going on and on and on and it is just degenerating into a yes it is no it isn't argument on BOTH sides. I believe the Devs have seen (OMG who hasn't) this thread already and if they haven't it is so damn long and annoying to read anyhow that they would most likely skip it.

The devs will decide on their own and keeping this going is pointless now. There are very very few people even coming forward to say they have Fel maps and pushing for this so I don't know that putting in coding for a hand full of people across all shards is going to be worth their time. That said, as I stated before, it wouldn't bother me in the least if they did. Can we please stop just going ya huh and nut uh at each other and agree to disagree.

As for the "established" reward vs. risk of Fel, I personally believe they put in higher ore, fame, and so on in Fel to draw more people there. For the sake of argument, even if it was because they thought collecting in Fel was more dangerous, it was implemented a long time ago and the population in Fel has decreased so much that it is like comparing UO now to UO pre AOS to say that the risk is even close to the same now.

Hunter Moon [HOT] Atlantic

 

[Beerman72]

No but I go to the scrap yard all the time and they assign all sorts of value for the things I turn in. Tin, copper, all sorts of junk is worth heavy bank in the real world.

Basically, Its copper vs aluminum and people are claiming the aluminum despite being vastly more common and easily obtained should garner more than copper scrap. Unfortunately, things that are harder to obtain or have fewer sources to obtain it from are logically scrapped for a lot more money.

i provided you with a more than sufficient reason behind not making the change, however it seems you have a habit of skipping the most relavent bits with your reply. your increased reward is based entirely on the *risk* of fel. by turning in the map you are invalidating your claim to the maps *reward*. comprende?

 

[Beerman72]

 

[Omnius]

perhaps if you steer clear of improper analogy you might have a shot at winning a debate...not this one however. i provided you with a more than sufficient reason behind not making the change, however it seems you have a habit of skipping the most relavent bits with your reply. your increased reward is based entirely on the *risk* of fel. by turning in the map you are invalidating your claim to the maps *reward*. comprende?

There is absolutely nothing that says a maps value is suddenly lessened by turning it in. With such logic, the reward for turning in trammel maps ought to be nerfed. Frankly, I'm appalled by what many of you consider logic, an argument or discussion. The only thing I've seen from the folks against this proposal is that they either disagree with risk vs reward altogether(and since the devs are continually reaffirming their belief that rewards should scale with risk, those people's arguments are invalid for this particular debate), people who simply hate anything that mentions felucca(sorry but felucca makes up roughly 20% of the game and is regularly used by a substantial portion of the population despite the claims from a few vocal people who never go there), people who seem to think that the turn ins constitute the increased reward by themselves(the big gap here is that trammel maps would then have to be toned down in value to adequately meet the risk vs reward scale), and beerman who thinks that a turn in of this nature is akin to a trash pick up rather than scrap or recycling(both of which require you to jump through a few hoops and go places( if you want your hoarded materials to be honored properly).


Besides the obvious arguments which have their place in other threads pertaining to risk vs reward as a whole(you're welcome to make threads condemning it somewhere else), the only arguments that really come into play against this example are so full of loop holes they fall apart under even the most simple scrutiny. Oh and the trolls and flamers, you simply lessen the credibility of your claims elsewhere that people in felucca are rude and people in trammel are nice(this is bs, rude people are everywhere and you know it).

 

[Omnius]

they already get increased reward. you do loot the creatures right? did you forget they have double loot in Fel? risk vs. reward already solved.

But parts of the reward have been nerfed effectively by some trammel loot being elevated to equal value in turn ins.

Uh no, wrong. If the devs felt otherwise they would give more points to fel maps. *hint hint*

You assume the devs never make mistakes when they make changes in video games. It's a simple oversight to make, and the code exists to distinguish the origin of these maps so it's probably not that hard to fix either. The devs are constantly fixing little oversights, it's the nature of working on MMOs

arguing a moot point often times results in flames and trolling. arguing btw is a prime example of trolling, as it does not allow for the dynamics of a proper conversation to progress.

the proper word would then be debate. I am debating, and many responses are poorly worded personal attacks and arguments that don't hold up under the light.

pretty sure he meant an MIB.

?

 

[Beerman72]

There is absolutely nothing that says a maps value is suddenly lessened by turning it in. With such logic, the reward for turning in trammel maps ought to be nerfed. Frankly, I'm appalled by what many of you consider logic, an argument or discussion. The only thing I've seen from the folks against this proposal is that they either disagree with risk vs reward altogether(and since the devs are continually reaffirming their belief that rewards should scale with risk, those people's arguments are invalid for this particular debate), people who simply hate anything that mentions felucca(sorry but felucca makes up roughly 20% of the game and is regularly used by a substantial portion of the population despite the claims from a few vocal people who never go there), people who seem to think that the turn ins constitute the increased reward by themselves(the big gap here is that trammel maps would then have to be toned down in value to adequately meet the risk vs reward scale), and beerman who thinks that a turn in of this nature is akin to a trash pick up rather than scrap or recycling(both of which require you to jump through a few hoops and go places( if you want your hoarded materials to be honored properly).


Besides the obvious arguments which have their place in other threads pertaining to risk vs reward as a whole(you're welcome to make threads condemning it somewhere else), the only arguments that really come into play against this example are so full of loop holes they fall apart under even the most simple scrutiny. Oh and the trolls and flamers, you simply lessen the credibility of your claims elsewhere that people in felucca are rude and people in trammel are nice(this is bs, rude people are everywhere and you know it).

HUH? there is nothing to say it doesnt lower the value of the map by turning it in? whats worth more, a t-map or the treasure? do you think you deserve the loot for it if you dont dig it up? the logic is simple, without digging it up a map is just a map. hence the same value weather it be fel or trammel.

second, i am welcome to post here as this thread is open to debate and question. as such i am welcome to provide you facts, generalization, and feedback.

 

[Beerman72]

But parts of the reward have been nerfed effectively by some trammel loot being elevated to equal value in turn ins.

how and what was nerfed? the map is still a map weather it be fel or tram. if you dont dig it up you dont get the reward. what could be a simpler way of seeing this?

You assume the devs never make mistakes when they make changes in video games. It's a simple oversight to make, and the code exists to distinguish the origin of these maps so it's probably not that hard to fix either. The devs are constantly fixing little oversights, it's the nature of working on MMOs

I didnt assume anything in this thread. You did remember? I laid the smackdown on your claim but you just wont ever stfu or admit ever being mistaken.

the proper word would then be debate. I am debating, and many responses are poorly worded personal attacks and arguments that don't hold up under the light.

How many times are you going to say this? Do you really believe the more you say it the faster it will come true? BTW...what do you call a debate over a moot point? An arguement. For instance, you say you have a yellow shirt on and I say its red. I cannot debate the shirt being red as it is clearly yellow, hence arguement over moot point. comprende? Is my english no good for you? perhaps I require another 8 years of schooling eh? Would that perhaps make my posts more valid and worthy of your interpretation? FYI....your poop stinks.

 

[Omnius]

HUH? there is nothing to say it doesnt lower the value of the map by turning it in?

Precisely, there are no parameters saying that the value of your map is suddenly lessened for turning it in. if there were, the trammel maps would then have to receive fewer points to properly scale with risk vs reward.

whats worth more, a t-map or the treasure?

That depends who you ask. A tmap is worth more to a person with no hunter as the treasure is out of reach! The treasure is of course worth more to the t-hunter.

do you think you deserve the loot for it if you dont dig it up?

No, but the risk vs reward principle is not negated by not digging up the chest. The map itself WAS OBTAINED at higher risk and thus the map itself is worth increased rewards. If you choose to dig it up, you then face more risks and more rewards. Your argument would make sense if maps themselves had no value. The fact is they do have value for selling or turnins.

the logic is simple, without digging it up a map is just a map.

Yes and a map is worth money.

hence the same value weather it be fel or trammel.

If its the same value, then you are saying the maps themselves should be given increased value to compensate for the increased risks associated with obtaining them.

second, i am welcome to post here as this thread is open to debate and question.

Yes, that is the purpose of a forum. Arguing against the concept behind this as a per se rule is more aptly placed elsewhere as this is not an argument for or against risk vs reward per se but for the enforcement of an established principle and policy.

as such i am welcome to provide you facts, generalization, and feedback.

Then do so but please stay on topic.

 

[Omnius]

how and what was nerfed? the map is still a map weather it be fel or tram. if you dont dig it up you dont get the reward. what could be a simpler way of seeing this?

The map itself is a reward for hunting. The map in trammel is obtained at no risk. The map in felucca obtained in vastly fewer areas and at significantly higher risk. Your argument is that a map has no value or is not obtained as a reward to hunting. This fails to address the big picture. I'm glad you brought this up because the reward here is the map, not necessarily the treasure. Digging up the treasure brings new rewards and new risks.

I didnt assume anything in this thread. You did remember? I laid the smackdown on your claim but you just wont ever stfu or admit ever being mistaken.

Where? You keep making up new parameters and assumptions. You don't take into account that maps themselves are a reward whose value is lessened when maps obtained in safety are suddenly granted equal value to those obtained despite more danger and obstacles to obtaining them. Please negate my argument and I'll stop, until then you are spinning your wheels making half an argument that has many holes in it.

How many times are you going to say this? Do you really believe the more you say it the faster it will come true?

I was about to ask you and the rest of the world is flat crew the same thing. You present no cogent arguments and you keep assigning your own properties to maps and the concept of risk vs reward.

BTW...what do you call a debate over a moot point?

Whatever it is you and a few others seem to be doing? You're arguing that risk vs reward shouldn't exist per se. This whole thread is asking for the enforcement of the established principle of risk vs reward. You aren't even bringing up the right points.

An arguement. For instance, you say you have a yellow shirt on and I say its red. I cannot debate the shirt being red as it is clearly yellow, hence arguement over moot point. comprende?

Is that why the points made by attorneys in a court of law are called "arguments"? Is a man's innocence or guilt a moot point? I no longer believe you even know what an argument is. Next time stop making assumptions and providing no basis for your claims. You don't address my points, I address yours. You keep screaming the same thing while I dissect your posts and rip your "arguments" apart.

Is my english no good for you? perhaps I require another 8 years of schooling eh? Would that perhaps make my posts more valid and worthy of your interpretation? FYI....your poop stinks.

Fayled posts in a stream of consciousness format. It's very difficult to interpret his points, especially when most of them are entirely invalid or faulty. Your english is obviously fine despite your apparent lack of knowledge as to what an argument is. Your response here can only be interpreted as trolling.

Cheers.

 

[Beerman72]

Precisely, there are no parameters saying that the value of your map is suddenly lessened for turning it in. if there were, the trammel maps would then have to receive fewer points to properly scale with risk vs reward.

I was not aware of any parameters being set on any particular type of turn in items. After all an orny is better than a bonesmasher for goodness sakes. (should they change that for YOU too, or do you not have 5K of them so it wouldnt be worth your mention) You are the only person here speculating that this map is better than that one.

That depends who you ask. A tmap is worth more to a person with no hunter as the treasure is out of reach! The treasure is of course worth more to the t-hunter.

That is a totally lame answer. In any case, the map is only worth the paper its printed on unless it has been dug up for the treasure. The point is a map is a map, weatehr it be from tram or fel unless it be dug up.

No, but the risk vs reward principle is not negated by not digging up the chest. The map itself WAS OBTAINED at higher risk and thus the map itself is worth increased rewards. If you choose to dig it up, you then face more risks and more rewards. Your argument would make sense if maps themselves had no value. The fact is they do have value for selling or turnins.

tell it to oprah...

If its the same value, then you are saying the maps themselves should be given increased value to compensate for the increased risks associated with obtaining them.

Do you even play the game? The increased reward isnt even based on teh map or treasure itself!!! Its based on the extra loot you get from monsters!!! DUH!

Yes, that is the purpose of a forum. Arguing against the concept behind this as a per se rule is more aptly placed elsewhere as this is not an argument for or against risk vs reward per se but for the enforcement of an established principle and policy.
Then do so but please stay on topic.

Hey dippy, I was on topic. I gave specific resoning to my thoughts on this matter, and even gave you reason why I refute yours as well as provided the logic behind it. Instead of properly addressing my statements of validity you kindly step over them and tell me as per the rules that I should stay on topic and refrain from arguing. GOOD JOB!

shirts red BTW...

 

[Beerman72]

 

[ColterDC]

your poop stinks.

tell it to oprah...

Pretty sure Omnius is winning this arguement.

How can I tell?

Beerdude is starting to resort to lame insults and mass emoticons.

 

[Omnius]

So that's Beerman and Fayled whose objections are utterly crushed by facts, logic and an understanding of the basics behind MMOs and UO's developer policies.

Is there anyone with an intelligent objection to having the risk vs reward principle guidelines scale the value of points from turned in tmaps and not just silly objections to the established principle(one with no indication of being altered by the developers) of risk vs reward?

I'd really love to see a cogent objection so we can really get to discussing the fine points and more relevant facts of such a fix.

Let's review past mistakes so new objectors can present better debate
Beerman feels that a tmap has no inherent value beyond the treasure. According to such a belief, tmaps would have no value to anyone without a t-hunter and would never be hoarded by anyone but thunters. This is indeed wrong. He has argued that there are no increased risks or difficulties in felucca, this is in direct contradiction to the beliefs of almost everyone in UO and the developers themselves.

Fayled has provided the argument that felucca has no risk. Obviously wrong. He has also made the claim that the introduction of the turn-ins constituted the properly increased reward for the risk, failing to address the fact that maps obtained in the safety of 80% of the game's land mass were granted equal value to the turn-ins. This means that maps in trammel were either granted a substantial boost compared to a moderate boost to the value in felucca maps or that there was essentially a boost only to trammel maps and not felucca maps. He failed to take into account the fact that the rewards are supposed to be scaled based on the risks, or that tmaps themselves are indeed a reward for hunting and thus supposed to be covered by the risk vs reward principle.

Ultimately both of the champions of objecting to this have repeatedly made different arguments and altered their arguments rather than refine them where as the argument for the #1 principle has only been expanded and elaborated upon. Their arguments are clearly and plainly dissected and torn apart so they resort to the personal insults that colter has brought up and the large numbers of trolls and flames from other posters.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

...or you could come to Siege where there is no Trammel...la

 

[Omnius]

Siege is nice but I have so much history with pacific, and so much stuff! lol

 

[Mythic]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet but, you do get one lvl higher tmaps off the same spawn in fel verse tram.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Fayled has provided the argument that felucca has no risk.

flat out lie .... clever ... BUT a lie none the less ...my position was(is) that there was(is) NO MORE risk ...today ... than yesterday ... last week ... last month ... last year ... in fel

oops! that, most will say ...is correct ... the "risk" in fel .... is the SAME as before ...

Add in the additional(finally) point by Mythic:" I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet but, you do get one lvl higher tmaps off the same spawn in fel verse tram."
higher levels ... higher points ... check the charts.

tis enough

Thanks for playing.

Burma Shave

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet but, you do get one lvl higher tmaps off the same spawn in fel verse tram.

Thread killer.

Besides, this thread has nothing to do with Risk and everything to do with Reward.

 

[ColterDC]

How do you add someone to ignore?

I've had about enough of fayled's moronic ramblings. Writing stuff all cryptic with horrible grammar doesn't make it sound any less stupid.

 

[ColterDC]

nvm I found it.

 

[Joyous2K]

...

I disagree on Power Scrolls... they were created specifically as a reward for controlling the Champ Spawns in Fel.

If Ilshenar is to get a champ spawn reward it should be different from Power Scrolls (maybe Alacrity scrolls).

I agree with Alacrity Scrolls in Ilsh.... As it is there is no reason to do champ spawn in Ilsh. Alacrity has value but not permanent value so it is less than a powerscroll.

Champ Spawn in Ilsh is complete waste. The gold can't even be carried now there is no BOS. SO maybe you can get a paragon martie but so what? That is it though, right? Alacrity Scrolls in ILSH!!! Maybe some deal where if you get one you can be PKed or stolen from for that item...

TMaps... eh I don't care... give em more or less or whatever... I am just glad I have a place to put mine now.

 

[Beerman72]

Pretty sure Omnius is winning this arguement.

How can I tell?

Beerdude is starting to resort to lame insults and mass emoticons.

no, i just dont like to argue...I prefer debate. this guy is unwilling to see anything from a viewopint besides his own, again making any active debate impossible. when faced with adversity he rings a mods. bell and asks for action to occur. sad really.

I speak my opinions instead of riding the bandwagon looking for nuts to swing from. when was the last time you made a post with actual content instead of one asking for the nerfstick or crying about scripters? honestly sir, seems someone cant let board pwnage out of thier mind! perhaps a glass of beer or a nice thick doobie would do your grumpy ass some good!

 

[Beerman72]

How do you add someone to ignore?

I've had about enough of fayled's moronic ramblings. Writing stuff all cryptic with horrible grammar doesn't make it sound any less stupid.

awww...cant take criticism? his writing style too hard on ur small bwain?

seriously tho, it seems constructive criticism isnt your strong point. if you cant play nice or have fun you should find another playground to roam.

hey look *points*...I think i see a fel scripter!!! *ninjas off*

 

[Beerman72]

So that's Beerman and Fayled whose objections are utterly crushed by facts, logic and an understanding of the basics behind MMOs and UO's developer policies.

Is there anyone with an intelligent objection to having the risk vs reward principle guidelines scale the value of points from turned in tmaps and not just silly objections to the established principle(one with no indication of being altered by the developers) of risk vs reward?

I'd really love to see a cogent objection so we can really get to discussing the fine points and more relevant facts of such a fix.

Let's review past mistakes so new objectors can present better debate
Beerman feels that a tmap has no inherent value beyond the treasure. According to such a belief, tmaps would have no value to anyone without a t-hunter and would never be hoarded by anyone but thunters. This is indeed wrong. He has argued that there are no increased risks or difficulties in felucca, this is in direct contradiction to the beliefs of almost everyone in UO and the developers themselves.

Fayled has provided the argument that felucca has no risk. Obviously wrong. He has also made the claim that the introduction of the turn-ins constituted the properly increased reward for the risk, failing to address the fact that maps obtained in the safety of 80% of the game's land mass were granted equal value to the turn-ins. This means that maps in trammel were either granted a substantial boost compared to a moderate boost to the value in felucca maps or that there was essentially a boost only to trammel maps and not felucca maps. He failed to take into account the fact that the rewards are supposed to be scaled based on the risks, or that tmaps themselves are indeed a reward for hunting and thus supposed to be covered by the risk vs reward principle.

Ultimately both of the champions of objecting to this have repeatedly made different arguments and altered their arguments rather than refine them where as the argument for the #1 principle has only been expanded and elaborated upon. Their arguments are clearly and plainly dissected and torn apart so they resort to the personal insults that colter has brought up and the large numbers of trolls and flames from other posters.

crushed? no sir...you have been given reason why things are the way they are but still see the sky as orange. i cannot argue that logic except by saying...*hey look, its blue...and they all say its blue too*. if you still see the sky as orange there is nothing more for me to say. hence saying this became an arguement over a moot point. i know at this point the only way to win is to walk away.

second, whats teh deal with changing my opinions for me? never once did i say tmaps had no value beyond being dug up for thier treasure. however i did say the maps themselves constitute no risk. (look for yoruself...its there..said by me...in very plain understandable english) by turning in the maps the risk is gone, because you are not physically in fel digging up the box. as such why should the maps be worth more? because you say so? hardly a concrete reason.

again, lose the im starting an arguement thing...i was here for active debate. you coined the term arguement in the thread when others didnt see or agree with your piont of view. just because otehrs do not agree hardly constitutes an arguement. however what will constitute an arguement is when one side refuses to see or take presented fact into consideration. (like you did sir...so i walked away)

personal insults? look in the mirror buddy...take a good long look at why others are frustrated with your *presentation*. people dont like being told that *what I say goes and there is no room for debate*...it tends to not only put people on the offensive, but also make people prone to pointing out said persons shortcomings. this results in individuals like yourself taking the shortcomings personally, paging multiple time for mods..., and then coming back here to open up the can of worms again.

have you ever heard the phrase *argueing on the internet is like running in the special olympics?* most people know when to draw the line, you sir dont have a clue. btw..once you become a lawyer i highly suggest you try your method of logic on a judge, your butt would get throw out of court before you have the ability to say *nuh-uh!*

edit: i see maps can be turned in once they are completed. as such why dont you go do the map, then turn them in. if you want your reward for the risk, it's out there in fel waiting to be dug up. otherwise take the point you get for the cleanup and have a coke and a smile. if not please quit crying about the milk you spilt.

 

[Omnius]

You can keep claiming that the reward is the loot from the chest but you refuse to accept that the map itself is a reward independently. It's laughable to even address most of your text anymore. You keep spinning your wheels, the two of you haven't brought up a solid point yet. I expected better from posters. Where is surgeries to present a cogent argument in defiance of risk v reward?

 

[Beerman72]

You can keep claiming that the reward is the loot from the chest but you refuse to accept that the map itself is a reward independently. It's laughable to even address most of your text anymore. You keep spinning your wheels, the two of you haven't brought up a solid point yet. I expected better from posters. Where is surgeries to present a cogent argument in defiance of risk v reward?

Glass houses? stones much?

Not once did i ever deny the t-map being a reward. please stop trying to change my point of view for me. all i ever said was if you wanted the *extra reward* you have to be willing to take the risk. in terms of the collection there is no increased risk between items that came from fel or tram. again, do doom arties get seperated based on value and worth? (what about the orny i got off the DF...shouldnt it be worth more because it was attained fighting the DF instead of a lesser minion...after all I took greater risk you know!)with that in mind i still dont understand why you cant see that an increased point value is laughable.

my wheels are spinning because you never, ever concede or even attempt to see things (at least on this matter) from other viewpoints.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

You can keep claiming that the reward is the loot from the chest but you refuse to accept that the map itself is a reward independently. It's laughable to even address most of your text anymore. You keep spinning your wheels, the two of you haven't brought up a solid point yet. I expected better from posters. Where is surgeries to present a cogent argument in defiance of risk v reward?

Thanks for pointing out and admitting that you aren't actually reading the thread
Above:

Add in the additional(finally) point by Mythic:" I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet but, you do get one lvl higher tmaps off the same spawn in fel verse tram."
higher levels ... higher points ... check the charts.

theeeeeres your "bump" for being from fel
Wheeeeeres your Increased risk from the same beasty ... against last week, last month, last year ... ???

Fel IS today ... as it was last week, last month, last year ... yes? no?
You trying to say fel is MORE "dangerous" than Fel was in the past?


You don't know what your talking about.

*Takes all your quatloo*
(Only the first Shave is free)

 

[Kaleb]

You can keep claiming that the reward is the loot from the chest but you refuse to accept that the map itself is a reward independently. It's laughable to even address most of your text anymore. You keep spinning your wheels, the two of you haven't brought up a solid point yet. I expected better from posters. Where is surgeries to present a cogent argument in defiance of risk v reward?

I agree with you the turn in value of a fel map should be a bit higher just to get the map there is alot more risk/ potential risk then say its counter part in tram. And in UO risk = gettin PKed, Getting surrounded/blocked by critters due to no push through, or the potential of being stolen from and reguardless where your hunting in fell that risk will always be there. Hence the reward should be enhanced and to me not just the points value but loot when dug up (but T-Hunting is a whole other can of outdated dried up worms)They also forget the highest lvl map can only be aquired in tram paragons who give lvl6 maps are somewhat hard(more time consuming solo) and deserve the highest points even tho they were from a tram rule set. Fel lvl5's should be between lvl5 tram and lvl 6.

points for maps should be like this:

lvl 1,2,3 tram maps = 100
lvl 1,2,3 fel maps =150
lvl 4 tram = 200
lvl 4 fel = 350
lvl 5 tram = 500
lvl 5 fel = 750
lvl 6 = 1000

You make a clearer point then the 2 you keep going in circles with in fact one speeks in jibberish and make no point at all. You got to understand that you will get nowhere arguing with those 2 Its obvious they never play in fel. You have to understand if you create a post that contains the words fel, risk vs reward, PvP you will get your 5-6 stratics super trammies trollin/flaming your thread reguardless of whats its about.

 

[ColterDC]

awww...cant take criticism?

LOL......who you trying to fool?

If I couldn't take criticism I would have half the posters on the ignore list.

I've been pvping for years, you have to have a hard shell to last through all the crap talk, ganks, etc.

his writing style too hard on ur small bwain?

Quite the opposite, I get paid a rather large salary to proof read financial documents for almost every national lender. Fayled's writing leaves a lot to be desired.


Looks like you're still losing your arguement.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I agree with you the turn in value of a fel map should be a bit higher just to get the map there is alot more risk/ potential risk then say its counter part in tram. And in UO risk = gettin PKed, Getting surrounded/blocked by critters due to no push through, or the potential of being stolen from and reguardless where your hunting in fell that risk will always be there. Hence the reward should be enhanced

...

you do get one lvl higher tmaps off the same spawn in fel verse tram.

Answered. The point bonus for Fel maps is already built in to the system.

 

[Omnius]

Kaleb, that sounds like a very fair scale.

 

[Omnius]

Fel IS today ... as it was last week, last month, last year ... yes? no?
You trying to say fel is MORE "dangerous" than Fel was in the past?


You don't know what your talking about.

And trammel is too. Any bump requires the RvR scale. A bump that elevates both to an equal level is essentially one which increases the reward MORE in trammel than in felucca as it ignores scaled rewards for the risk.

 

[Surgeries]

...

For Felucca, they need to get the new PvP systems in place and balanced so that PvP is an activity that people WANT to be involved in, then they need to REMOVE DOUBLED ANYTHING based on facet and let Felucca stand for itself instead of trying to give all sorts of "incentives" to draw people back there.

/signed

 

[Beerman72]

Looks like you're still losing your arguement.

/epic_fail



Thanks!

 

[Beerman72]

And trammel is too. Any bump requires the RvR scale. A bump that elevates both to an equal level is essentially one which increases the reward MORE in trammel than in felucca as it ignores scaled rewards for the risk.

do your batteries ever run out? FFS you just keep going...and going...and going. seems you wont stop beating this dead horse till you *have it your way*. why dont you acknowledge the posts that object logically? let me guess, you cant hear us as we are on your ignore. oh shucks, another deaf guy trying to teach others how to *hear* his side of things.

 

[Googly]

Fel players have been given too much, have they?

.......

You've been given Trammel, Malas, Ilshenar, and Tokuno. 4 continents. PvP'ers get a little more influence over power scrolls. Cool. Real cool.

I hate the fact that we have to give incentives for people to work up the courage to come to Fel. But, I do have to agree with the fact that T-Map collection is oodles (noodles? hehehe) harder in Fel. Not because you risk being killed by a player, but simply for how hard it is to get in and out of dungeons now.

I couldn't care less if these Trammelites come to Fel or not. But, the legacy dungeons are dead. These were the original dungeons, before the tram copies...before Ilsh, SE, and ML. Now, they're dead.

Honestly, I don't see why any self-respecting PvP'er would be against risk vs. reward. It puts more targets in Fel. More stuff for my thief to steal. More people for reds to grief.

The trammies want it. The reds and thieves should want it. Whats the issue here again?


Edit: Just read that you already get a 1-level bump in maps in Fel. If this is true, then thats it. You already get your extra reward for the risk. Case closed.

 

[Kaleb]

Edit: Just read that you already get a 1-level bump in maps in Fel. If this is true, then thats it. You already get your extra reward for the risk. Case closed.

Paragons bump +1 and any that give up to lvl5 are pretty easy, not to mention lvl 1-6 can be had in tram while fel you can only get 1-5.

 

[Googly]

Ah, that is true.

Take t-maps from Ilsh, than. Why do monsters in Ilsh have maps to treasure buried in Trammel? I've never seen a monster use a moongate.

Allow level 6 maps in fel for killing level 5 monsters.

My only point is, risk vs. reward works out better for both sides of the player base. So don't see any argument against it other then Fel players wanting to bash Trammelites simply because they want something.