Correct i gladly welcome reds as long as ps come too
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you do realize that Powerscrolls in Tram wouldn't be worth it, right? You're forced into an unavoidable wait for the spawn to pop again on its own. With enough people, you could easily do the ilshenar spawns in less than 10 minutes. Look at Atl with the Artio spawn. Hitting level 4 took maybe 3 minutes. At that point it'd become a massive headache getting scrolls, because you're competing with...let's say 30 other people. And you're already unlikely to get the specific ones you're looking for, even in a Fel spawn. By all means, add them to Tram. With the limitations in place, Tram spawns won't be done at all if people want scrolls.
So there's 5 tram spawns each done roughly every 40 minutes (that's 10 minutes for the actual spawn ((that's your math)) plus 30min reset) so 24 times a day so 24 x5 x6 (no protection so only 6 scrolls a champ)= 720 ps a day? That's just on Atlantic...
Now do the same math for Fel spawns.
Well fel totally different they're especially on Atlantic not run 24/7 because zerg guild xxx of the day controls them and the ps market and we are talking about ps coming to tram
*sigh*
Here's the math. Let's say it's 10 minutes for a small group to do a Fel spawn, start to finish w/no raiders. 2-3 minutes for the Star Room gate to close. Get scrolls out, re-pop the spawn, repeat. That's 4 spawns an hour, more or less. With Protection, that gives you 48 scrolls. In a 24 hour period, 1,152 scrolls (at minimum) would be generated. Tell me again why people would go to Tram for scrolls?
So that people like you didn't kill them and take their scrolls??
"People like me" who are largely retired from pvp and have very little interest in it? While there are some exceptions, I'm not going to go out of my way to kill random people at spawns. I've helped people (even on Atl) or protected them (a random Primeval Lich check on LS)
People fighting people who want to fight is indeed the most fun killing sheep is not...
If you're geared up enough to do a champ, even on a non-pvp temp, I'd argue you aren't a sheep. You always have the option to not go there and get your PS on vendor search.
And I wasn't someone who wanted a fight. I'd generally flee. Most fun mob in the game is another player. Even when you are just trying to get out alive. And if you don't, you res, and all your **** is insured anyway. Earn the PS or pay the $$.
Taking the unwilling out of fel shouldn't hurt it in the least
And the last time we counted there was 24 scripters and merv/yoshi/blacksmith left pvping
I think the better evaluation on enticing people to risk pvp is this:
Near exclusive, but very very limited content (in this case only skill and stat scrolls) vs a better chance at a much larger range of content.
If you got a 10% or 20% increased chance of drops from Doom, Exodus, Corgul, Abyss mini-champs, +1000 luck everywhere, and exclusive access to Justice... combined with being the only ones allowed to get +20 or +25 scrolls as drops... for being in VvV and the tradeoff of being attackable in any dungeon in the game... would there be more of less people to fight.
I think there would be more oranges to fight.
Near exclusive, but very very limited content (in this case only skill and stat scrolls) vs a better chance at a much larger range of content.
If you got a 10% or 20% increased chance of drops from Doom, Exodus, Corgul, Abyss mini-champs, +1000 luck everywhere, and exclusive access to Justice... combined with being the only ones allowed to get +20 or +25 scrolls as drops... for being in VvV and the tradeoff of being attackable in any dungeon in the game... would there be more of less people to fight.
I think there would be more oranges to fight.
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Everyone is missing the key point, the majority of UO players whether you like it or not are non-PvPers, I don't need to show show stats to prove this is true. I'm being realistic here, 10+ years ago I would have argued for the fel ruleset but... I'm not stupid, I got older, wiser and know Felucca is not a sustainable ruleset.
We need to grow up and try to sustain UO as it is. A global, voluntary PvP ruleset is the way ahead, Fel needs to go, it's dead and will remain so... PS is no longer an argument other than from those that monopolise the market (which I did too but no longer care for).
We need to grow up and try to sustain UO as it is. A global, voluntary PvP ruleset is the way ahead, Fel needs to go, it's dead and will remain so... PS is no longer an argument other than from those that monopolise the market (which I did too but no longer care for).
I fixed that for you. I personally believe there is a balance that can be struck, but this dev team isn't going to do it. The systems as they are now work against each other. I agree that Broadsword should cater to the audience they have on the shards they have.
They still have Siege and Mugen which they should continue to develop for, but they need to really think about the things they add there and whether it fits. They have a tendency to forget of the existence of these when they publish new stuff which often leads to them having to remove it afterwards or just releasing content that doesn't work well on those shards and leaving the players to deal with it. Ideally, they would release content for these shards separately, but that would delay content for the rest of the shards and the whining would be deafening.
I don't know, I never cared for the playstyle of PvP... not that I never participated in PvP, as I most certainly did. But IMO it just more often than not, leads to a lot of grief and drama... a lot of DRAMA... and to me I guess because I'm older I just don't care for that. I want to play, have fun, and relax... I don't care for the "rush" of OMG it's a red trying to kill me... just don't need that. I'm not an adrenaline junky... I don't play for the "thrill" of trying to survive... like I said I play to have fun and relax... unwind and just enjoy a bit of peace... tranquility... I don't care for what I refer to as "Panic" play... don't need that... there are a ton of games out that give that sort of "thrill" ... IMO they don't seem to last long... they succumb to problems with griefing, cheating, harassment, and other things far worse... DDOS attacks and all sorts of things because some people can't stand to lose... or what-have-you... but it just IMO promotes and perpetuates bad behavior. Just my opinion...
We then won't get into the greed aspect of UO.
We then won't get into the greed aspect of UO.
The only reason I suggested all dungeons, and not global, is so that pvp, even consensual, doesn't interfere with all EM events. But I do agree that finding a more broad based way to incentivize players who might be willing to pvp is the way forward.
Ffs honestly don't know why the argument is even open you have two choices in UO go play siege or go risk fel because EA isn't going to do anything other then to keep brainstorming NL for years and years that seems kinda dumb imo. BEST CHOICE, not part of actual UO go join free shards they actually do things other then crappy lil em events and think for years to make slight changes...
PS... Thats yourt incentive? Thats the reason you stay for 20+ years?? PS?... Seriously, grow up...
Only for you because you want to pick on the weak, tell me I'm wrong... I did It, but I grew up..
Thats the most stupid thing to say ever. The majority of players are PvE, no one cares for Fel except for your precious PS. Grow up and get with the programme...
Love you man but be honest, you are a relic of time, Siege/Mugen are never going to be want you want them to be. You can shoot me down in flames and call me what you want but you know its true. Its not a UO thing its a 'World' thing.
@Akiho - With all due respect, you seem to be speaking your opinion as fact that applies to everyone but you are pretty far off base when it comes to "why people like Fel" as you say it's only to pick on the weak (that's not true).
Things you ignore:
Sorry for taking this thread further off topic but felt the need to kind of set the record straight because I know plenty of people who play in Fel and are good people that will help others (also in Fel) and worst case scenario they will just do their own thing and kind of ignore you. Very far from the idea of people waiting around the gateway from Tram to gank you and take all your $h!t
Things you ignore:
- People have the choice to come to Fel. By entering Fel ruleset you are saying you think you are strong enough to play there. In the event of a spawn the people doing the spawn would obviously be strong enough to do the spawn.
- The game has so many "dead shards" that people can easily work an entire spawn by themselves uninterrupted back to back to back. That is... if they are strong enough to actually solo a spawn. You make it seem like Fel ATL primetime is the only time spawns can be done.
- You say majority of players are PvE but then you say people in Fel only look to pick on the weak so we don't need Fel. Those thoughts contradict each other. If you are PvE then you are open to PvP (isn't that covered under PvE?) and since you are open to PvP that lends itself to a Fel Ruleset.
- One reason I like it is because it essentially doubles content (ie Treasures Of is available in 2 dungeons) so if/when the next dungeon is jam packed with people on Tram side, I can venture over to Fel and take my chances there.
- Another reason I like it is because you are bound to run across someone who doesn't honor the unspoken "codex" that comes with games like UO (ie someone keeps luring mobs over to you) and when you do you will have the option to kill them. Even if you can't kill them 1 on 1, you can try to block them or have the monsters kill them and when they do you get to loot them. Same applies to people that like to talk trash. They can do so in Tram without consequence but let them try to the same thing in Fel.
- Third reason I play in Fel (more recently) is actually looking for the reds that are looking to pick on the weak because I usually find they aren't very good themselves and can be dealt with pretty handily.
- A final reason I like Fel, contrary to what you say, is that I've made some pretty good acquaintances while playing Fel. More recently it's been with the Treasure Of events because inevitably you will die and believe it or not people will res you without looting you in Fel. Those are the people that I like to fight along side with and res them when needed too. Also believe it or not, you will also find reds or pvpers that aren't bad people. I've fought reds and died and ask for a rez (what's it hurt?) and maybe half the time they will toss me a res provided I wasn't talking trash before. I'm the same way, if there is honorable combat and I win I'll rez the person I was fighting.
Sorry for taking this thread further off topic but felt the need to kind of set the record straight because I know plenty of people who play in Fel and are good people that will help others (also in Fel) and worst case scenario they will just do their own thing and kind of ignore you. Very far from the idea of people waiting around the gateway from Tram to gank you and take all your $h!t
You say that, but look at the 3 most populated free shards... All 3, Fel ruleset. How could that be? Well, they have different systems for dealing with murderers, griefing, and the like. You can say that most people don't want non-consensual PvP, that is probably true for people playing on EA/BS servers, but for UO as a whole? Your dataset is flawed. I think the entire audience needs to be taken into account as there are way more potential players out there that should be considered. The analogy I used before was: "It is like going into a crowded vegan restaurant and deciding that most people are vegan." You are looking only at current EA/BS players when you say that the majority of players don't want PvP, and fail to consider the larger audience. I also said, and firmly believe, that there is a balance that can be struck to where the two play styles can coincide, but I don't think anyone at BS is going to find that balance, they just don't have the creative ability.
As far as Siege/Mugen goes, yeah, I agree, they'll never be what I want because BS is going to cater to their largest player base, PvM players. In my opinion that is all they should do, unless they want to do separate development for the PvM shards and the PvP shards (Siege/Mugen), which I don't think they can or will. Like I said, the systems work against each other and they should be separate.
I wouldn't do that. You have an opinion and you present it without coming off as whiney or entitled. I have no problem with that, even if I disagree.
I talk with a lot of pvpers the main reason they reject Siege is the training system
RoT can be easily bypassed using a soulstone. I've taken Stealing from 80 - 120 in under an hour. They have known about this exploit forever but they don't fix it because it sells soulstones.
We all know that that is a crock of bull. SP is Skill over Equipment
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This thread has been cleaned up a bit. Please don’t bait and troll others. Thanks.
Last I knew, Siege was home to a lot of stealthers. If I want to pvp, I have no interest in playing hide & seek. You either want to fight or you don't.
Why does everyone resort to this as an argument? It has no weight. There is no reason why an ENTIRE SEGMENT OF THE GAME should be a complete afterthought, whether it allows for pvp or not. That it has an exclusive reward (Powerscrolls) is irrelevant. The Trammel ruleset has been given literally EVERYTHING since its inception. What have the pvper's gotten since Publish 16? Some stuff with Factions iirc, which was later removed and replaced with VvV...which was a complete flop.
As it stands now, there is very little risk to pvm in Fel, even on Atlantic. When I was going to get the 3rd piece for a Whetstone yesterday, I kept my tamer hidden for a couple hours. I could kill literally anything there (that's not a champ spawn) and people would likely leave me alone; if they don't, I'd assume some of them would res me afterwards. On LS, I can tell you that the current "pvp'ers" there (using that term very loosely) will not do that. They will kill you (with numbers, the only way they can fight. If it's 1v1, they can't even kill a tamer - I would know), then dry loot you. That said, I have only seen those players at IDOCs & a few times when they'd kill people farming the Easter Eggs. On Atl, you can do spawns without issue (I've run across a few in Despise and Destard), and I'd imagine you could likely even sneak a Harrower during primetime hours. If not, there are MANY other servers where you can farm for those scrolls and primers.
Ultimately, whether people pvp in this game or not is of no concern to me - I'm largely retired from it, for various reasons. But I've still kept enough of my skill to be able to defend myself in a 1v1 situation, or even outnumbered (depending on the skill of said players.)
Real PvPers, not PKers, loved fighting less skilled players because after losing to them they would always try to teach you new ways to fight so when you next fought it was more of a challenge.
The issue of PvP-centric free shards has come up again, I see, similar to how it came up with the issue of custom rules shards was a frequent topic. I did some research on the free shards some years back, in an attempt to address the custom rules shard issue, and found that the extent of their success was exaggerated by their supporters. Further, they were free and they were and often offered additional content or services not offered by official UO (which is of course constrained by the need to bring in more cash than it costs), thereby not being a good comparison either way.
If PvP were as popular as folks like to claim then a lot of things would be different about UO's past (and, to a lesser degree, present) and, quite likely, EverQuest wouldn't exist at all.
But these statements will continue no matter what. Oh well.
If PvP were as popular as folks like to claim then a lot of things would be different about UO's past (and, to a lesser degree, present) and, quite likely, EverQuest wouldn't exist at all.
But these statements will continue no matter what. Oh well.
Well that's exactly it John, those shards have custom rules that make non-consensual PvP less of an issue than it is on the official shards. The developers of those shards have attempted to find a balance to make non-consensual PvP viable, where the devs for the official shards have not. I'm not saying that that is wrong, only that there is a market for that type of play and EA/Braoadsword choose to ignore it and posters also ignore it when they make blanket statements like "the majority of UO players are non-PvPers." The point is that non-consensual PvP, in a lot of people's opinions, is a big part of what made UO UO. I understand that some don't like it and that is fine as well, but I personally feel that non-consensual PvP is where the magic of UO lived and when it was all but completely removed from the game, the magic went with it.
Exactly. Do I remember all of the times I've killed "insert monster here" in UO? No, I don't. I do remember (at least in part, for those that happened during the mid-2000s) the fights I've had in UO, especially at spawns. In more recent years, the same applies - I had more fun with some of the fights I had on LS than I did any of the pvm farming I've done.
Ok, so....The following material is mostly borrowed from previous posts I've made arguing against a custom rules, pre-Trammel shard. This post outlines my argument, using appropriate measures, for why it is indeed fair to say that the majority of UO players don't PvP, didn't want to PvP at the time it was forced upon them, and why it's misleading to attempt to argue that there's a majority of players out there who do want non-consensual PvP. I can reuse the earlier material because it fits this topic too.
I'm very unlikely to address this thread again because, well, I know full well that I won't convince anyone who has convinced themselves otherwise, or who feel they benefit from the pre-Tram system and want to return to it, regardless of consequences.
If my argument were not accurate, and the counter-argument was accurate, then......Let us go down the list.
Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.
But it did happen.
(Same for the Dungeon Khaldun a little bit earlier -- they were creating content for Fel as a lure because most people didn't want the lifestyle that place promoted.)
Let's go back further: Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.
But it was. (Then see also above.) (I'll go a little further and speculate that it's plausible EverQuest would never've existed.)
People wanted to just play, not be stolen from, killed at the new player spawn point, called names, etc.
Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.
But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online
Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the 15th anniversary anniversary party.
But he did. (Lost the link for this long ago.)
Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.
But they are not.
There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.
But there was.
The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)
But they're not.
There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.
But there are those posts.
Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing. Everquest would be dead, Shadowbane would be thriving. Pre-Tram UO free shards would have huge populations, dwarfing the proper game itself.
But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook; Everquest has 66,431; UO has 27,757. I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number of likes: 3,773. I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.
www.facebook.com
www.facebook.com
www.facebook.com
(No links for the free shards so as not to break the Stratics TOS. I think?) (These specific numbers are out of date as I did this research a long time ago.)
Note that the free shards don't have a lot of likes, way less than the "official" UO that supposedly needs rescuing by reviving a playstyle that nearly killed it to begin with.
Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters here or on Reddit. (Consider how little time it takes to "like" and how much time and effort it takes to post. Clearly we're going to get the extremes here on Stratics and therefore aren't going to be a representative sample. I've met way more people who just play than who post.)
I also once upon a time explored the Internet sites of the popular free shards and, based on that research, determined that posters on Stratics were wildly exaggerating the populations of those shards. (A lot of them reported usage statistics, which was cool to see that there were people online, but the numbers they presented did not strike me as enough to say that there were folks there clamoring to have this duplicated in official UO.)
Further, the free shards are free (which for those who don't know, means they do not charge subscription fees, and that's usually a powerful incentive to give a product a whirl), offer additional content or services that aren't in the real game (I've seen cool customized pets, mass bannings of cheaters, and stellar customer service), and frankly aren't as populated as they're reported to be here.
Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist.
I could go on and on.
Finally I note that if "normal" UO players liked the pre-Tram rules we'd still have thm today and this tread wouldn't be here! There would be no Tram to which reds would seek entry.
I'm very unlikely to address this thread again because, well, I know full well that I won't convince anyone who has convinced themselves otherwise, or who feel they benefit from the pre-Tram system and want to return to it, regardless of consequences.
If my argument were not accurate, and the counter-argument was accurate, then......Let us go down the list.
Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.
But it did happen.
(Same for the Dungeon Khaldun a little bit earlier -- they were creating content for Fel as a lure because most people didn't want the lifestyle that place promoted.)
Let's go back further: Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.
But it was. (Then see also above.) (I'll go a little further and speculate that it's plausible EverQuest would never've existed.)
People wanted to just play, not be stolen from, killed at the new player spawn point, called names, etc.
Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.
But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online
Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the 15th anniversary anniversary party.
But he did. (Lost the link for this long ago.)
Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.
But they are not.
There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.
But there was.
The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)
But they're not.
There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.
But there are those posts.
Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing. Everquest would be dead, Shadowbane would be thriving. Pre-Tram UO free shards would have huge populations, dwarfing the proper game itself.
But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook; Everquest has 66,431; UO has 27,757. I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number of likes: 3,773. I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.
Darkfall Online
Darkfall Online. နှစ်သက်သူ ၂,၉၁၈ ဦး. The best PvP MMORPG is back with a vengeance. The cries of battle will be heard once again over the land of Agon. Pre-Order Now Darkfall Unholy Wars at...
www.facebook.com
EverQuest
EverQuest. နှစ်သက်သူ ၆၆,၂၂၈ ဦး · ၃၅ ဦး ဒီအကြောင်းပြောနေသည်. Play EverQuest now For free! www.everquest.com
www.facebook.com
Ultima Online
Ultima Online. နှစ်သက်သူ ၂၆,၆၁၃ ဦး · ၃၁ ဦး ဒီအကြောင်းပြောနေသည်. Welcome to the official Ultima Online Facebook Page! Latest News and Information: www.uo.com
www.facebook.com
(No links for the free shards so as not to break the Stratics TOS. I think?) (These specific numbers are out of date as I did this research a long time ago.)
Note that the free shards don't have a lot of likes, way less than the "official" UO that supposedly needs rescuing by reviving a playstyle that nearly killed it to begin with.
Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters here or on Reddit. (Consider how little time it takes to "like" and how much time and effort it takes to post. Clearly we're going to get the extremes here on Stratics and therefore aren't going to be a representative sample. I've met way more people who just play than who post.)
I also once upon a time explored the Internet sites of the popular free shards and, based on that research, determined that posters on Stratics were wildly exaggerating the populations of those shards. (A lot of them reported usage statistics, which was cool to see that there were people online, but the numbers they presented did not strike me as enough to say that there were folks there clamoring to have this duplicated in official UO.)
Further, the free shards are free (which for those who don't know, means they do not charge subscription fees, and that's usually a powerful incentive to give a product a whirl), offer additional content or services that aren't in the real game (I've seen cool customized pets, mass bannings of cheaters, and stellar customer service), and frankly aren't as populated as they're reported to be here.
Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist.
I could go on and on.
Finally I note that if "normal" UO players liked the pre-Tram rules we'd still have thm today and this tread wouldn't be here! There would be no Tram to which reds would seek entry.
I've said this before and I'll say it again... I play a LOT of other games online... while doing so many people ask what other games I play... I tell them I play Ultima Online and have for years... now... there are 4 types of players when I say that... 1 never heard of it... 2 my mom/dad/uncle/aunt/older sister/brother used to play that ... the game is still around? and 3... they LOTHE that game... hate it with a passion... that is why they play xyz and will then question my sanity when I say I love the game... etc... wondering what there is to love about a game so VILE... as they recall getting the game and having all their **** taken again and again and nothing was ever done and the DEVs suck and the game sucks and etc... they sometimes go on and on about how vile it was and what a horrible experience they had... They do NOT look back on it fondly... they do NOT want to hear anything about how it's changed or about Trammel or anything the game left such a distaste in them that they simply HATE anything UO. 4 There are the rare few who ask if the game is still around and they quit sometime after AoS... Many of these people just didn't like that change... felt the community died for them then. Many of them went to Everquest and WoW... etc...
Now I have seen a resurgence of players of late... My guess is due to WoW shooting itself in its proverbial foot if you will... many of the returning players have been gone 10-plus years... some 20... and many of them that I am now helping and talking with can't believe how UO has changed... and some are still upset about how much is the same... economy comes up a lot... but a lot of them like how much there is to do now. But I keep hearing the same things... so what do people "farm" now? And questioning the EM Events and all the lag associated with them... and the whole "drop" system. They are bewildered by this. They have no idea what is going on most of the time... they aren't following the story, many have zero clue about the history... who the EM is and why there is all this talking... what sort of monsters these are why the drops there suck so bad... etc...
Now I have seen a resurgence of players of late... My guess is due to WoW shooting itself in its proverbial foot if you will... many of the returning players have been gone 10-plus years... some 20... and many of them that I am now helping and talking with can't believe how UO has changed... and some are still upset about how much is the same... economy comes up a lot... but a lot of them like how much there is to do now. But I keep hearing the same things... so what do people "farm" now? And questioning the EM Events and all the lag associated with them... and the whole "drop" system. They are bewildered by this. They have no idea what is going on most of the time... they aren't following the story, many have zero clue about the history... who the EM is and why there is all this talking... what sort of monsters these are why the drops there suck so bad... etc...
Listen. I can concede the point here. I understand that given the current system(s) we have here on official shards, the PvM play style is more popular. I don't think I have ever argued that fact. John has done plenty of research on the subject and I can't objectively refute it and I apologize that he had to waste so much time and energy doing research to argue a point that I really wasn't trying to make. It's very possible that I am not always clear in my delivery.
However, I'm not one to think inside the box and the point that I am trying to get across cannot be measured using any statistics. What I am saying is that I strongly believe that there is a system that can be implemented that will allow for almost all players to enjoy non-consentual PvP in UO. There are free shards out there that may have found one. I don't know. What I do know, is that they have made a better attempt than the developers of the official shards. Official shards have continued to push systems that only serve to disrupt the balance of play styles to the point where ever achieving it is likely impossible.
So are there more PvM players out there than PvP? Nobody knows because the players keep being put into these "boxes" of imperfect systems, especially players on official shards. Official shard players are especially prone to only playing and believing in this incredibly poor system of segregation of play styles. Most of those that I have had the chance to talk to about it are basically prisoners to whatever systems Broadsword gives them due to the simple fact that EA/Broadsword essentially owns 20+ years of memories conveniently stored in pixel trinkets that the players gladly shell out $4 - $12 every month to keep. It makes it quite difficult for these players to explore other options and systems and attempt to rediscover that "magic" that myself and many others believe has been sapped from the game over the past decade or two.
I suppose I just like to point out that any attempt to thoroughly conclude that one play style is more popular than another is subjective at best. I aim to find out how to bring back this "magic" that I'm always rambling on about. I believe that the key is in balancing the PvM and PvP play styles and I refuse to just give up and say that it can't be done like so many here seem to believe. I love these forums and the posters, and I think that there might be some great ideas and creativity here, but I am sometimes saddened by the players' inability to think outside the proverbial box that they have been stuffed in.
However, I'm not one to think inside the box and the point that I am trying to get across cannot be measured using any statistics. What I am saying is that I strongly believe that there is a system that can be implemented that will allow for almost all players to enjoy non-consentual PvP in UO. There are free shards out there that may have found one. I don't know. What I do know, is that they have made a better attempt than the developers of the official shards. Official shards have continued to push systems that only serve to disrupt the balance of play styles to the point where ever achieving it is likely impossible.
So are there more PvM players out there than PvP? Nobody knows because the players keep being put into these "boxes" of imperfect systems, especially players on official shards. Official shard players are especially prone to only playing and believing in this incredibly poor system of segregation of play styles. Most of those that I have had the chance to talk to about it are basically prisoners to whatever systems Broadsword gives them due to the simple fact that EA/Broadsword essentially owns 20+ years of memories conveniently stored in pixel trinkets that the players gladly shell out $4 - $12 every month to keep. It makes it quite difficult for these players to explore other options and systems and attempt to rediscover that "magic" that myself and many others believe has been sapped from the game over the past decade or two.
I suppose I just like to point out that any attempt to thoroughly conclude that one play style is more popular than another is subjective at best. I aim to find out how to bring back this "magic" that I'm always rambling on about. I believe that the key is in balancing the PvM and PvP play styles and I refuse to just give up and say that it can't be done like so many here seem to believe. I love these forums and the posters, and I think that there might be some great ideas and creativity here, but I am sometimes saddened by the players' inability to think outside the proverbial box that they have been stuffed in.
I'll put it more like this @Stinky Pete ... PvP for me was "fine" when it served an RP purpose... when the sides were more... balanced... when it was done for "fun" not for loot. When it had reason and meaning but wasn't the sole focus of gameplay. Defending the town, running the orcs out of town to keep them from harassing citizens trying to bank and go about their lives... when we did "caravans" of supplies and had to defend them till their destination... bringing Yew wine to Minoc or what-not... Or when the people of Minoc and people of Yew kinda got into "skirmishes" holding bits of road between Yew and Minoc which we would "tax" and defend... etc... *(there were many reasons to have a PvP fight)...
When PvP was and is not fun... killing newbs just because you can and taking their stuff... (what is the purpose other than to literally make them hate the game and quit?... where is the "challenge" in that and what does it serve except to prove what sort of an A$$ you can be?) This sort of behavior is just vile and toxic... speed hacking, using cheats, playing with cheats that removed trees and other obstacles etc... Again I have to ask what is the purpose? Honestly and this is my opinion if you have to resort to all that to "win" you are a LOSER in the highest regard... cheating is still losing. If you can't hack it and play as the game is intended you shouldn't be playing and again this behavior to "win" at whatever cost is TOXIC... and vile and quite honestly has no place. All it serves is to hurt others. If you have to play to "harm" others in such a way then perhaps therapy is what you need not an MMO... perhaps you ought to be playing some stupid shooter game. But then those games often do not tolerate cheaters. 10 vs 1... or any other seriously overpowered combo also falls in this category... "win at whatever cost" is honestly somewhat lame again that's my opinion. What "fun" is it to mow someone down... takes less than .2 seconds and what 2 or 3 of the 10 get to actually "hit" the target... but do all share in the "glory"? What glory is there in being a complete jerk? I fail to see the "fun"... in that... nor a challenge. Many people cry and moan about challenges but when presented with one... resort to cheating or excuses.
As for "lures" into fel... there is nothing that they can put there to make lambs wish to be slaughtered... I'm sorry. NO matter how green the grass is there... lambs will refuse to go. So what happens is what did happen... the PvPers controlled the spawns... releasing the PS to the rest of the players like a cartel controlling the flow of alcohol during prohibition. Made them all fat wads of money and of course they want to continue to defend that way of life why wouldn't they????? Did not we see that in society in RL??? And you wonder why people think Fel and all who like it there are corrupt??? Well, it isn't any surprise for most of us.
Dune... those who control the spice... need I say more?
I mean really ... if people wanted to PvP... and really enjoyed that sort of thing you would think that most shards would hold big tournaments in the arenas which were designed and set up for that sort of thing... Now if they did that crap right there would be some stupid title crap you could earn from that and all... which OMG there is... yeah. And the only ones with such titles are people who take 2 accounts to the arena and give it to themselves. Again there are so many ways to cheat systems it isn't even funny...
But PvP can be "fun" and enjoyable... just depends on your idea of fun. To me .2 seconds of Ooo I killed that guy... isn't fun. Jumping someone at a champ spawn who's down to 1/2 or 1/3 of their health isn't a challenge... isn't fun... and isn't worthy of praise...
I personally think it's beyond high time to move PS out of Fel... but that's me. I also believe it's beyond high time to move spellweaving out of the hell it's hidden in as well... and add a trainer for it to Haven like other skills have... allow it to be chosen when you start a character as well... ML was at least 15 years ago... time to move it out of the dark ages... and it's beyond time that spellbooks (just the regular crafted ones not Scrappers or anything)... should be IMBUABLE... but again that's me.
When PvP was and is not fun... killing newbs just because you can and taking their stuff... (what is the purpose other than to literally make them hate the game and quit?... where is the "challenge" in that and what does it serve except to prove what sort of an A$$ you can be?) This sort of behavior is just vile and toxic... speed hacking, using cheats, playing with cheats that removed trees and other obstacles etc... Again I have to ask what is the purpose? Honestly and this is my opinion if you have to resort to all that to "win" you are a LOSER in the highest regard... cheating is still losing. If you can't hack it and play as the game is intended you shouldn't be playing and again this behavior to "win" at whatever cost is TOXIC... and vile and quite honestly has no place. All it serves is to hurt others. If you have to play to "harm" others in such a way then perhaps therapy is what you need not an MMO... perhaps you ought to be playing some stupid shooter game. But then those games often do not tolerate cheaters. 10 vs 1... or any other seriously overpowered combo also falls in this category... "win at whatever cost" is honestly somewhat lame again that's my opinion. What "fun" is it to mow someone down... takes less than .2 seconds and what 2 or 3 of the 10 get to actually "hit" the target... but do all share in the "glory"? What glory is there in being a complete jerk? I fail to see the "fun"... in that... nor a challenge. Many people cry and moan about challenges but when presented with one... resort to cheating or excuses.
As for "lures" into fel... there is nothing that they can put there to make lambs wish to be slaughtered... I'm sorry. NO matter how green the grass is there... lambs will refuse to go. So what happens is what did happen... the PvPers controlled the spawns... releasing the PS to the rest of the players like a cartel controlling the flow of alcohol during prohibition. Made them all fat wads of money and of course they want to continue to defend that way of life why wouldn't they????? Did not we see that in society in RL??? And you wonder why people think Fel and all who like it there are corrupt??? Well, it isn't any surprise for most of us.
Dune... those who control the spice... need I say more?
I mean really ... if people wanted to PvP... and really enjoyed that sort of thing you would think that most shards would hold big tournaments in the arenas which were designed and set up for that sort of thing... Now if they did that crap right there would be some stupid title crap you could earn from that and all... which OMG there is... yeah. And the only ones with such titles are people who take 2 accounts to the arena and give it to themselves. Again there are so many ways to cheat systems it isn't even funny...
But PvP can be "fun" and enjoyable... just depends on your idea of fun. To me .2 seconds of Ooo I killed that guy... isn't fun. Jumping someone at a champ spawn who's down to 1/2 or 1/3 of their health isn't a challenge... isn't fun... and isn't worthy of praise...
I personally think it's beyond high time to move PS out of Fel... but that's me. I also believe it's beyond high time to move spellweaving out of the hell it's hidden in as well... and add a trainer for it to Haven like other skills have... allow it to be chosen when you start a character as well... ML was at least 15 years ago... time to move it out of the dark ages... and it's beyond time that spellbooks (just the regular crafted ones not Scrappers or anything)... should be IMBUABLE... but again that's me.
I couldn't agree with you more I don't think. Pretty much on all points. PvP can be and is fun but balance needs to be there. Like I've said over and over, I believe in it. It's a shame so few others do. I suppose, in a roundabout way, you would be one of these PvP players that are not considered when statements like "most players only want PvM" are thrown around.
PvP has its place... just the problem is that a few bad apples spoil the cart so to speak. The cheating and the other things associated with it bring it down and basically make it more of a turn-off...
The trouble is I don't see much way to "fix" much of what's wrong with it. As there are always bad apples and how do you get rid of them? Suppose there is the DAoC way and to make reasons to war... but that goes back to Chaos and Virtue sort of system... and well my one thought was while we have "weekly" sorts of events with EMs could we not have some sort of "weekly" battle type thing people could sign up for... Now one way it could perhaps work would be if you had a different shard that came to light at certain times for a certain period of time and somewhat of capture the flag sort of thing occurred etc... ended and the winners would receive a temp title of sorts or something. A trophy of sorts to put on their wall... or some such thing... I could see it could be done.
But instead, we are getting NL.
The trouble is I don't see much way to "fix" much of what's wrong with it. As there are always bad apples and how do you get rid of them? Suppose there is the DAoC way and to make reasons to war... but that goes back to Chaos and Virtue sort of system... and well my one thought was while we have "weekly" sorts of events with EMs could we not have some sort of "weekly" battle type thing people could sign up for... Now one way it could perhaps work would be if you had a different shard that came to light at certain times for a certain period of time and somewhat of capture the flag sort of thing occurred etc... ended and the winners would receive a temp title of sorts or something. A trophy of sorts to put on their wall... or some such thing... I could see it could be done.
But instead, we are getting NL.
Again I couldn't agree with you more.
I always think exactly this when I am on ATL and see the gen chat... it's actually sad to read and it boggles the mind what must be in those heads!
As near as I can discern, you essentially have three arguments.
One, that current systems are fatally flawed relative to your preferred playstyle. That, I am constrained to point out, is less argument than preference. My own preferences are clear and that's why I've never played games like Darkfall or Shadowbane. It's mere happenstance that my preferences here happen to align with the majority preferences as discerned from evidence. (I also freely admit that my preferences would not be in the majority, if the population were limited to Stratics posters or Stratics staff.)
Two, essentially that there are loads of players that share your preferences and would love to play a game that catered to them to a greater degree, and that current playstyles are a product only of what is offered. That argument is, at least in part, empirical, and I submit that the my points, which you say you cannot refute objectively, essentially disprove that, for all the reasons indicated in my original post. We had something closer to your preferences, and it didn't work for most people. We have, still in existence, something closer to your preferences, and not only does it not work for most people but, as I have demonstrated, a long line of attempts to garner support for something closer to those preferences has also failed in the longer-term.
Three, that there exists a balanced approach that broadens the appeal of non-consensual PvP. This of course is again a preference, which I can neither prove nor disprove. I do however think that the numbers of people trying out the free shards you allude to are, based on my research, not high enough, especially given that we're talking about a free product here, to justify the idea that the there are enough people that'd agree with that preference to justify changing the game accordingly.
One, that current systems are fatally flawed relative to your preferred playstyle. That, I am constrained to point out, is less argument than preference. My own preferences are clear and that's why I've never played games like Darkfall or Shadowbane. It's mere happenstance that my preferences here happen to align with the majority preferences as discerned from evidence. (I also freely admit that my preferences would not be in the majority, if the population were limited to Stratics posters or Stratics staff.)
Two, essentially that there are loads of players that share your preferences and would love to play a game that catered to them to a greater degree, and that current playstyles are a product only of what is offered. That argument is, at least in part, empirical, and I submit that the my points, which you say you cannot refute objectively, essentially disprove that, for all the reasons indicated in my original post. We had something closer to your preferences, and it didn't work for most people. We have, still in existence, something closer to your preferences, and not only does it not work for most people but, as I have demonstrated, a long line of attempts to garner support for something closer to those preferences has also failed in the longer-term.
Three, that there exists a balanced approach that broadens the appeal of non-consensual PvP. This of course is again a preference, which I can neither prove nor disprove. I do however think that the numbers of people trying out the free shards you allude to are, based on my research, not high enough, especially given that we're talking about a free product here, to justify the idea that the there are enough people that'd agree with that preference to justify changing the game accordingly.
And I’m pretty sure all of this is negated by an idea to just find better ways to incentivize/reward consensual PvP, which is honestly what we have now, just poorly implemented. Every player in UO can avoid PvP if they choose, there are just some rewards they can’t access directly. IMO that isn’t much different than crafters having BoD rewards that fighters can’t access, or fishing rewards that blacksmiths can’t access.
The challenge I see these days is that the incentive to opt into PvP doesn’t drawn enough interest. Maybe that interest isn’t there at any reward level. Maybe it is and our game mechanics need to adapt in order to tap into it.
I havent been red in tram but does this actually happen? Reds have been allowed in guard zones of towns (in Fel) for at least a decade now. That goes back to a point of another thread (and this one) that being red doesn;t really matter these days.
I would assume that they wouldn't get guardwhacked either. I agree though, that there's no real point to being Red these days - years back, it made sense. Not everyone did factions and you needed characters that could defend spawns without blues running right over fields. Now, VvV accomplishes the same thing - virtually everyone that pvp's is in it. Plus people use town buffs & they CAN'T go red because of it. There's no real reason why that's still the case.
I've always hated that fel cities didn't have their own governors etc
It’s because Fel is ungovernable land even the Devs gave up on Fel
