Scripters win again

[Fridgster]

however it is against the rules, TOS to use any unapproved 3rd path program

You are 100% correct. However, when it has gone unenforced for decades you can understand some peoples perception that its not. Toss in the fact that it had been said at one point (and if later it was disproved please let me know) that messanna herself had admited to using at least one of the "illegal" third party programs.

lol and don’t buy gold from 3rd party RMT sites. You risk getting hacked ripped off and again banned

Ok... well, getting ripped off is a slight possibility but it would take some pretty poor decisions if it does happen. There is now way I can think of that you could be hacked... as far as the getting banned part.... seriously? When have you EVER heard of someone getting ANY kind of action on their account for buying gold. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

 

[fonsvitae]

You are 100% correct. However, when it has gone unenforced for decades you can understand some peoples perception that its not. Toss in the fact that it had been said at one point (and if later it was disproved please let me know) that messanna herself had admited to using at least one of the "illegal" third party programs.

Mesanna did admit to using a loop program at one point (this isn't the source, but a reference to it), signalling that such use is permitted; she likely meant its attended use.

 

[Uriah Heep]

It's fine to macro, anywhere

It's NOT fine to UNattended macro, anywhere.

 

[Lore]

Well... you're just proving my point. There are people saying it's not, which is someone I don't really recognize, and people saying it is okay... and the ones saying it is okay are regulars.

 

[Pawain]

The EC has built in Macros. Using macros is one thing. Using unauthorized programs is another.

I would assume you can use EC macros all day if you answer the GM.

 

[Uriah Heep]

The EC has built in Macros. Using macros is one thing. Using unauthorized programs is another.

I would assume you can use EC macros all day if you answer the GM.

Right. 23/7
as long as you can answer (because you would be attended)

 

[Lore]

I understand the difference between a script using third party software and a macro, but if they allow one and not the other it's just an ego thing or something irrelevant to me. I'm going to use the more powerful tool. Attended.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Can't remember which M&G Mesanna stated that they were only going to enforce MultiBoxing and Unattended macroing/scripting that as long as you answered the GM you were safe but she would not go as far to say 3rd party apps were OK.

 

[Uriah Heep]

The words aren't script or macro.

The words that make the difference between banning and not, are attended and unattended

 

[Keven2002]

The words aren't script or macro.

The words that make the difference between banning and not, are attended and unattended

The words script and macro actually DO make a difference. A script essentially turns your character into a bot and really gives you an advantage that macroing simply can't do since it is a prerecorded button that has more of a limited use.

There are 3 scenarios of this, one which nobody really is impacted and another two which absolutely people would be impacted and there are several other threads on.

First example:
You have a skill you are looking to raise, lets say for sake of argument it's magery and you start at 50 skill.

A macro is: You set a spell on a hot key (maybe even with a delay) and you keep hitting that over and over to raise your skill OR you could do the "stack of pennies" thing on the button to just spam it. Don't need any third party programs as UO has macros but you could use UOA or Pincos (only programs I'm aware of that are 100% legal to use).

A script is: Once you build (or find) a script for magery, you essentially press play or "run script" and that's it; no pennies required. Requires third party program (you can argue you use Pincos but there still isn't any way effective way to loop it)

Technically you could do both attended or unattended but the big difference is that using the macro will work until you get to 60-65 magery and you then need to change you spell that you are casting (this also requires you to have the game window on top; aka no multitasking unless using third party programs) whereas the script will do everything for you and you literally don't need to touch the keyboard until you are GM (you could even surf the web without interference).

This doesn't really impact anyone so as long as you are attended it's probably pretty hard to prove you are actually using a script.

Second example:
You are now out in the world (not raising a skill) and decide to an IDOC (pre pub 108).

A macro is: You setting some spells or hot keys up to invis yourself or open a container /check the sign or something basic. Maybe even use last item for the house placement tool. There honestly isn't a whole lot I can think of for a simple macro for an IDOC. One account is used for the macro (you have to toggle back and forth and hit the macro for multiple accounts).

A script is: The guy everyone hates that has 5 accounts with "bots" that are hidden with 5 packies and when the house collapses all the items are "vacuumed" up within 20 seconds and you get squat.

I've read over 100+ posts on people being very upset over this so whether you are at the screen or not a script is giving that one person a very unfair advantage.

Third example:
You are in Fel and decide to PvP against someone.

A macro is: A set of keys you made to heal/cure/drink pots/use skills etc that you hit in certain combinations to try to win or try not to die. This is 100% human element.

A script is: Something running in the background of the guy you are fighting that auto cures anytime he is poisoned or somehow hits several different moves/spells within a very small window (repeatedly). Some things are actually impossible to do if using UO macros because you will get a "must wait to perform" message if you try to do something like drink a cure/heal/refresh potion all within a second of each other.

I've read several post on people pointing out how PvP is all scripters and those that don't script cannot compete with a scripter 1 on 1 (which is the main reason I also stopped PvP).

So as you can see you can be attended in every instance here but there is a very clear distinction between a macro and a script. I'm not saying all scripts are bad but at the end of the day they DO give people an advantage over those just using macros. Sometimes it doesn't matter with crafting or skills raising but when those scripts start to impact other's play (ie IDOCs or PvP) then it's an issue.

 

[Uriah Heep]

Okay.

I'm not going to belabor the point. You went off on a total different tangent, I am not talking about which is right, nor which is moral.

I'm talking about which gets you banned. They cant tell if you are using a script or macro or even if you have a matchstick stuck in the key. when they talk to you, if you are there and can answer them, you don't get jailed.

If you keep on trucking, so to speak, without acknowledging them, you get to go to jail.

Hence, the key words are attended and unattended, for purposes of not getting jailed/actioned. Has nothing to do, in the concept I am speaking of, of what's right or proper or fair.

 

[Xris]

Okay.

I'm not going to belabor the point. You went off on a total different tangent, I am not talking about which is right, nor which is moral.

I'm talking about which gets you banned. They cant tell if you are using a script or macro or even if you have a matchstick stuck in the key. when they talk to you, if you are there and can answer them, you don't get jailed.

If you keep on trucking, so to speak, without acknowledging them, you get to go to jail.

Hence, the key words are attended and unattended, for purposes of not getting jailed/actioned. Has nothing to do, in the concept I am speaking of, of what's right or proper or fair.

Just fyi about 8 years ago I got a 72hr ban for being afk at fel yew gate to burn murder counts. No macros, no scripts, no clicks, just screen activity to stay logged in. I thought it was legal but apparently not. Just saying.....be at your pc when you play UO.

Sent from my SM-J337VPP using Tapatalk

 

[Uriah Heep]

Just fyi about 8 years ago I got a 72hr ban for being afk at fel yew gate to burn murder counts. No macros, no scripts, no clicks, just screen activity to stay logged in. I thought it was legal but apparently not. Just saying.....be at your pc when you play UO.

Sent from my SM-J337VPP using Tapatalk

My point, exactly. regardless, be at the keys or get in trouble

 

[Spartan]

So if it's fine to macro in your house then why say this in the Newsletter from November 2019?

We would also like to update everyone on a new policy as it relates to how we handle ToS violations within a house. If players are caught in a house violating the ToS, in any form, the account which owns the house will also be actioned.

I think that last part - esp. "... in a house violating the ToS ..." means unattended macroing. Not scripting or unattended actions. That's the way I would interpret it. IIRC the house was usually sacred ground up until now.

 

[ShriNayne]

Just fyi about 8 years ago I got a 72hr ban for being afk at fel yew gate to burn murder counts. No macros, no scripts, no clicks, just screen activity to stay logged in. I thought it was legal but apparently not. Just saying.....be at your pc when you play UO.

Sent from my SM-J337VPP using Tapatalk

That doesn't surprise me, I'm pretty sure someone said they got temporary banned when they were bank-sitting, well that's what they said, who knows, but they did say they were not afk macroing. Yet still the worst cheats never seem to get noticed or have any action taken despite multiple proof being sent to Messana.

 

[Chap]

Hi, a few comments

First of all ToT is outdated content and that is why I say it shouldnt stay for long (like 8months etc 1month more than enough) The reason for this is its not updated rewards and the game-design of ToT is old. Basically what I do is put a char in a place and let the pet kill the spawn. Yes my tamer is hidden, there is no need for interaction with the pet its a killing machine on its own, and I get ToT rewards. Thats why I say the gamestyle of ToT is outdated, unfortunately.

If you talk to my char I wont answer because:
1: no you cant have my spot, im there for 2hours max then its yours (unless someone else grab it)
2: My char has 0 hiding skill, using jack of all trades to hide takes a wile, i wont reveal myself to talk to you
3: Since the ToT is outdated I dont need interaction in the game appart from not logging out from Idle.
4: I have talked to GMs past few days, since someone paged I had a GM talking to me and I replied, all fine.
People seem to jump to conclusions when they try talk to someone and they dont answer they must be afk

When they add content I hope they make it smart, ToT is not a smart way its and old way that have flaws such as afk-macroing and is way too easy for tamers.
I understand they "flipped a switch" just to enable it and did not put any effort into it, but thats also a reason to not have it ingame for long time, its no point.
With outdated game design such as ToT it could be that the devs didnt think it through when they enabled it.

 

[Tjalle]

2: My char has 0 hiding skill, using jack of all trades to hide takes a wile, i wont reveal myself to talk to you

You could always party the other player and say "I´m here. You can move along." and then drop the party. Or speak to him in GC.

I for one don´t buy all the "I´m attended but I just refuse to speak to another player for a couple of seconds."-stories. Sure, there might be a few that´s true but all in all I think it´s BS.
And if you´re there, and don´t say anything, it´s just gonna lead to a GM wasting their time on you and I´m sure most of you know this. So that´s on you.
The person paging will page if there´s any suspicions of rule violations because that´s what that mechanism is there for so that player is doing the right thing. Some might not like it but it´s still the right thing.

 

[CovenantX]

So paging on a (suspected) scripter is considered "snitching" now?
Interesting...

It always has been in the eyes of a scripter/cheater. Especially as of late when everyone gets away with anything and everything.

Ok. Let’s forget legal and illegal as it’s just a game

however it is against the rules, TOS to use any unapproved 3rd path program. Ie script programs and it is 100% against the TOS to use these programs whether it be speeding in PVP. Loot grabbing or indeed in you house training. It’s all not allowed

We've been in a real pickle for a very long time then, because these programs are used by almost everyone (I mean literally every account logging in) nowadays.

For example I've not met a single person in UO that does BoDs without a certain 'illegal program' that can't be named on forums for somereason.... to script it for them in like 18+ years.

It seems Mesanna wants to have it both ways, allow people to use any program they want, even if that program makes things automated very easily, but expect people to be attended 100% of the time. That cannot be done.

 

[skett]

Not trying to argue here but I’ve never used any script for BOBs or at any time ever in 20 years

 

[chester rockwell]

Mesanna has basically stated that the "illegal" programs are fine. It's hard to come to terms that those programs aren't "illegal" anymore. Took me a while too.

 

[CovenantX]

Mesanna has basically stated that the "illegal" programs are fine. It's hard to come to terms that those programs aren't "illegal" anymore. Took me a while too.

Mesanna basically saying something doesn't mean it was interpreted that way she meant.

I remember her saying something like "Win any way you want to win", there's no way she meant cheating as a valid option, although I don't think she ever clarified that statement so... obviously people assume it did mean cheating was ok. I mean if rampant cheating wasn't in plain sight before, you gotta be blind to not see it now.

If the newsletters 'actioned account numbers' aren't completely fake (as some elude to occasionally), people still get banned for several different things.

Btw, isn't there some Rule for Stratics as well as the official UO forum, saying you can't mention cheat programs by name? what's the point of that rule if those programs are ok? as if everyone doesn't know about them already... lol

 

[Pawain]

Btw, isn't there some Rule for Stratics as well as the official UO forum, saying you can't mention cheat programs by name? what's the point of that rule if those programs are ok? as if everyone doesn't know about them already... lol

Stratics is not bound by UO rules now. But, they may want to still not allow talking about those.

 

[Lore]

Stratics is not bound by UO rules now. But, they may want to still not allow talking about those.

Seeing as how a mod here actively said they bought things from third party sellers, I'm not really sure about that either.

 

[Fridgster]

Stratics is not bound by UO rules now. But, they may want to still not allow talking about those.

There is a difference between discussing and promoting. To blindly ignore something exists and sticking your head in the sand accomplishes nothing. I like the fact that stratics gives considerable leeway in regards to these things. Like it or not, these things are ingrained into our game. For better or for worse.

 

[Captn Norrington]

Btw, isn't there some Rule for Stratics as well as the official UO forum, saying you can't mention cheat programs by name?

Technically yes, that's correct, but to be honest most of us on the staff here don't see a reason for that rule to exist anymore and we've had discussions about removing it a bunch of times. For now, the best middle ground we've found with it is allowing the programs to be named and screenshots of them to be shown in the new "Stratics Unleashed" section where anything goes, but still removing it when the programs are named in normal forums.

 

[Lord Nabin]

*taps pipe and looks up from the fire*

The days of Stratics needing to and actively working to appease EA,Broadsword, and or the UO Devs are long past.

It might be better to focus on the needs and wants of your membership. They are the ones who drive everything for you now.

*looks back to the dusty old tome and wiggles back into his high back chair by the fire*

 

[petemage]

You could always party the other player and say "I´m here. You can move along." and then drop the party. Or speak to him in GC.

I for one don´t buy all the "I´m attended but I just refuse to speak to another player for a couple of seconds."-stories. Sure, there might be a few that´s true but all in all I think it´s BS.
And if you´re there, and don´t say anything, it´s just gonna lead to a GM wasting their time on you and I´m sure most of you know this. So that´s on you.
The person paging will page if there´s any suspicions of rule violations because that´s what that mechanism is there for so that player is doing the right thing. Some might not like it but it´s still the right thing.

Also pretty weird culture. Too lazy to say hi? Uff. Yet enough time to farm those pixels xD

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I think it is absolutely pitiful that, rather than do their jobs, and actually BAN the scripters/cheaters/dupers/gold sellers AND buyers (some of whom HAVE posted in THIS thread) the devs just decide to give the "middle finger" to the (remaining) honest players! How Mesanna keeps her job is beyond me. @Bleak @Kyronix @Misk

 

[Matrix Cubed]

So you snitch on someone and then stand around waiting to see if the GM shows up and what he does? Are you hoping to derive some sort of sick pleasure from watching another player get in trouble? You do realize that BS has a policy of not discussing disciplinary actions taken against other players. If you are waiting around for hours, as you said you were, it's very possible that the GM showed up but couldn't do his job because of you being there. I'm not sure that this is what happened, but I'd say it's very possible.

Yeah okay Pete...I've been playing 20 years and still hit a key for every action but I know damned well many of those scripters are either devs, gm's or friends of...nothing is more clique driven than UO...especially now.

 

[Matrix Cubed]

I can't take anyone serious that uses the word legal when discussing this topic, sorry. I'm almost 100% they've said scripting in your house attended was okay.

Reading and comprehension...a lost art.

 

[Matrix Cubed]

GMs still show up for scripters. I was intermittently training bard skills in Luna last week, and had a GM show up, they never spoke to me in GM chat, but showed as a ghost and spoke to me above their head. I actually had to pull the life bar to see it was yellow, before I answered. I had been macroing less than 60 min.

Point is, Some people still page and on occasion a GM still bothers to show up.
[/QUOT

So if it's fine to macro in your house then why say this in the Newsletter from November 2019?

We would also like to update everyone on a new policy as it relates to how we handle ToS violations within a house. If players are caught in a house violating the ToS, in any form, the account which owns the house will also be actioned.

Likely the only 'actioned' accounts are the competition!

 

[chester rockwell]

Mesanna basically saying something doesn't mean it was interpreted that way she meant.

I remember her saying something like "Win any way you want to win", there's no way she meant cheating as a valid option, although I don't think she ever clarified that statement so... obviously people assume it did mean cheating was ok. I mean if rampant cheating wasn't in plain sight before, you gotta be blind to not see it now.

If the newsletters 'actioned account numbers' aren't completely fake (as some elude to occasionally), people still get banned for several different things.

Btw, isn't there some Rule for Stratics as well as the official UO forum, saying you can't mention cheat programs by name? what's the point of that rule if those programs are ok? as if everyone doesn't know about them already... lol

I wish I could remember what was exactly said, but the intent of what she said was that whatever programs you want to use are ok. The only bannable things I've seen lately (past few years anyway) are using bad words in chat, duping, and afk scripting. The last one being the only thing I KNOW of......and by that, a person I play with was banned for 72 hours. Training in his house of some rando skill and he went to use the restroom and was playing on his fone for too long.

My point being, I don't know of anyone that has been banned for using the standard programs that just about everyone I know uses. If they don't ban for it, with all the out right plain-as-day usage of it, then it is legal.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

he standard programs that just about everyone I know uses.

Have you considered getting a different group to play with? You might enjoy playing without illegal programs. Also, just because they aren'r currently banning players for using illegal programs doesn't make it "legal". It just means that the devs aren't DOING PART OF THE JOB THEY ARE BEING PAID TO DO! @Bleak @Kyronix @Misk

 

[CovenantX]

My point being, I don't know of anyone that has been banned for using the standard programs that just about everyone I know uses.

This has been my experience as well... it's pretty sad, because those programs give many advantages over players abiding by these 'rules'.

Have you considered getting a different group to play with? It just means that the devs aren't DOING PART OF THE JOB THEY ARE BEING PAID TO DO! @Bleak @Kyronix @Misk

Yeah, well... playing by these 'rules' isn't worth it when the vast majority doesn't have to. Especially in pvp.

 

[chester rockwell]

Keith, I never used anything until mesanna said do whatever it takes to win. She doesnt care about the programs. The devs don't care about the programs. There is no reason to try and fight the system. The people in charge that determine the interpretation of how rules are.........don't......care......

There is no point in trying to be a martyr on this. There are certain advantages to the programs, yah, but itisnt the end all be all of it. The most annoying thing is the stupid wall scripts. If they could fix that somehow, I'd be 100% fine.

 

[chester rockwell]

And the easiest way to not be screwed over by the wall scripts......run in the ec client.....and run diagonal to the walls.....easy peasy.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Have you considered getting a different group to play with? You might enjoy playing without illegal programs. Also, just because they aren'r currently banning players for using illegal programs doesn't make it "legal". It just means that the devs aren't DOING PART OF THE JOB THEY ARE BEING PAID TO DO! @Bleak @Kyronix @Misk

*stokes pipe and looks up from his old dusty tome*

Have you ever considered posting all this where the Dev's are actually looking. That is not here. So you can tag them all you want. You can pancake about RMT, Drama, Third party sellers, etc. No one is listening. This is not the forum for it. Head on over to the UO forum and make your difference friend.

This place is for legacy players trying to understand the game, the new guilds and players, and how to engage.

If you don't get that. Well..

*Stuffs pipe and lights it with a coal from the fire*

 

[Captn Norrington]

Have you ever considered posting all this where the Dev's are actually looking.

Kyronix and Bleak still log in here all the time actually, they just don't post. Only Mesanna doesn't come here at all. I see them on the "posters online now" section at least once every couple days.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Kyronix and Bleak still log in here all the time actually, they just don't post. Only Mesanna doesn't come here at all. I see them on the "posters online now" section at least once every couple days.

We are talking about engagement. The Devs might check in once in awhile, but this is not where they engage anymore. Unfortunately. I wouldn't either. Don't blame them.

 

[MalagAste]

From what I've heard they aren't allowed to post anywhere but on their forums... so while they can't post here they do at least read the forums here.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

Kyronix and Bleak still log in here all the time actually, they just don't post. Only Mesanna doesn't come here at all. I see them on the "posters online now" section at least once every couple days.

Lately, it has been more often than that even.

 

[Captn Norrington]

A few reports have come in from this thread in the last couple hours, I understand people have different gameplay/posting styles, but please make sure to not bash other posters on the site going forward. Thanks.

 

[Lord Frodo]

WOW So it is ok to bash other people just as long as it isn't people in this thread because that is what this thread was started about, to bash. Maybe people shouldn't throw stones if they can't take it when other throw them back at them.

 

[ShriNayne]

Kyronix and Bleak still log in here all the time actually, they just don't post. Only Mesanna doesn't come here at all. I see them on the "posters online now" section at least once every couple days.

Mesanna barely visits the other forum so she isn't likely to be bothered reading this one, I checked a while back how many times the team had been on the other forum and for Kyronix it was a very high number way over 1500, Bleak was quite a bit less and for Mesanna at that point it was 14... so it's not just opinions here she doesn't read.

 

[Captn Norrington]

WOW So it is ok to bash other people just as long as it isn't people in this thread because that is what this thread was started about, to bash. Maybe people shouldn't throw stones if they can't take it when other throw them back at them.

This is the rule:

"Troll or otherwise badger, or abuse, other users of Stratics (including staff members), other posters, visitors, and VIPs from development teams."

So technically yes.

Also, they can go to the new Stratics Unleashed section that has almost no rules, and attack each other as much they want there without moderator intervention.

 

[Acid Rain]

This has been a couple yrs in the making... Haven’t played in +6months due to a few reasons, mainly b/c to play anymore requires some lvl of programs to be competitive. I’ve tried some as I didn’t want to quit. I didn’t like the resulting uneven playing field (those using/not using programs) nor how it became whoever has the better programs win. There’s a HUGE disparity between those using & those not. It’s not fun, I quit playing.

The ‘cheaters vs noncheaters’ ship sailed long ago with the “soon to be released” updated approved programs list that never came. This is what we’re left with, like it or not. Vocally disputing here (or there- uo’s site) does nothing, trust me... I know, I used to rail on this topic. I’m done... as are most every other player that didn’t use programs.

I’m glad enough folks enjoy UO to keep it running as it’s still an option to return if I get the itch. I respect those willing to fight the good fight just as I respect those that have taken matters into their own hands. Just don’t expect many folks to get ur back if ur railing against ‘cheats’. Most old school posters here r gonna come down hard on ya.

Miss the good friends made & will try to show up 2 C ya sometime. Have fun ya’ll .

Sidenote: Can’t count how many times I ran past a neighbor AFK skills training in his castle & watched their script 2 step in alternating directions while casting spells so not to log out.

*Packs pipe & lights it with a coal from his fire*

 

[Uriah Heep]

and for Mesanna at that point it was 14... so it's not just opinions here she doesn't read

The Queen on her throne has no need for interaction with the great unwashed...

 

[Scribbles]

The Queen on her throne has no need for interaction with the great unwashed...

but she will be the first to tell you to email her.

 

[Jelinidas]

The Devs might check in once in awhile, but this is not where they engage anymore.

They don't engage there either.

 

[Keven2002]

For example I've not met a single person in UO that does BoDs without a certain 'illegal program' that can't be named on forums for somereason.... to script it for them in like 18+ years.

Hi... I don't use any programs to fill BODs. Am I doing it wrong? lol

as if everyone doesn't know about them already... lol

I don't know them...

I'm far from a UO pro-gamer these days and I'm pretty out of touch but I get around pretty good *shrug*. That said, I don't PvP (exactly for that reason) so it probably won't be an issue until I go to Fel.