Evening I would imagine when people are off of work. 5pm-9pm regionally. There's an argument being made here is that it's too difficult for an average person to spawn during those hours, and I don't think that's accurate. I just think the risk is higher than it is at say 3:30 am.
I am going to argue exactly this.
My evidence to prove PvP games are in fact the most popular games in existence right now.
Hah, I actually considered prefacing my statement, because yes, directly competitive games are wildly popular. What I mean was within a mixed system (primarily the topic at hand, MMO games), where there are conflicting interests between pvp and pve, that people I would say prefer the latter to the former greatly. But games that the only thing you do is pvp, and that's the only the thing the game was designed to do, yeah that's a different kettle of fish. That's why I mentioned Fallout 76, since it's a mixed style/mmo lite experience where some people playing won't want to pvp and others will. I think generally people want one or the other and most of the strife comes from the mingling. Ostensibly that's what people are asking for, that the pvp aspect of the game be neutered to the point that it is rendered meaningless.
I am going to argue exactly this.
EDIT - LOL, I think I misread your post. I didn't see the word "non". Nevermind, everything stands.
[I do like, and rate your posts by the way, when I read them properly!].
I believe the main false emotive assumption made by UO players of a certain zealous mindset is to ignore the factually obvious,they have convinced themselves and everyone PvP is not popular.
Look at this poster below for example, I believe this guy is a troll, who keeps pumping out the same old rhetoric no matter what.
His facts are easily annihilated, I only lack the time to do it completely.
My evidence to prove PvP games are in fact the most popular games in existence right now.
Most popular 50 games right now;
The 50+ Most Popular Video Games Right Now
1. Fortnite: Battle Royale - SERIOUSLY PvP with a Feluccan style environment. This game is controversial, yet captures the essence of UO in its prime.
2. Grand Theft Auto V - Seriously a Feluccan rogue playstyle.
3. Minecraft - Kids game, UO has a lot of Minecraft similarities with its retro graphics and levels of customisation - current Castle contest fits this style perfectly.
4. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege - Pure PvP.
5. Overwatch - Team based multiplayer online first person shooter = PvP.
6. PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds - I wonder.
7.
8. League of Legends - Multiplayer online battle arena.
9.
10.
11. Call of Duty Black Ops.
12. Call of Duty WWII.
13. Counter Strike Global Offensive.
14. Roblox - Again Kids game, so much in common with UO, like Minecraft, my kids play this, they also look over my shoulder in awe at UO which I won't let them play, don't want it to affect their studies.
15. God of War.
16. Call of Duty Black Ops III.
17. Battlefield 1.
18. Blah blah blah, I'm getting bored now.
Hopefully by this point, I have completely proved the point as to the most popular style of game = PvP without the slightest doubt, beyond any sort of reproach or argument.
You can look at any site ranking games, and you will get a similar story, I picked this one randomly.
So lets take this as read from now, anything stating anything different, is just plain and simply wrong, and can be ignored for all purposes of debate.
So, moving on, lets look at UO, and what it can do, to re-establish itself.
UO is known nostalgically for great PvP, it fits the current retro mold, it is also known for it's fast paced, and super fun style of PvP - this was a HUGE draw for UO, one which years and years of destroying it from the game have decimated UO. Bring it back, focus the game around it.
This post is very telling, but not for the reasons you will claim. My proposal gave you a lot more than the Tram side gets. (Remember that part of your side of the fence's argument is that, somehow, all the content is the cause, rather than the consequence [which it clearly is] of the Trammel rules being more popular. My proposal gives all that content to you.) That somehow isn't enough because how other people get things interests you more. Most players voted with their feet a long time ago (see one of my earlier posts). You somehow reverse the logic and assert the opposite.
LOL..I agree with you on all points.
A little bit off topic, but where do they get the gold? Or is it that most papers also have pvm characters that farm gold somehow? The generalization may not be all the way the truth..
They will certainly have their sources of gold, but the most obviously one is the fact of rezzkilling because of the armor insurance.
I think you may misunderstand me, because I don't think this assessment is accurate to my opinions. I would never argue that tram is less popular, or that it even should not get the lion share of the content, which it should, and does. It's about the experiences we have available to us and what makes them function.
In my experience, pvpers mostly do have pvm alts but that many of them don't want to pvm, they simply have to i order to get gear. I think a lot of pvp player income probably comes from scrolls, but I can only speculate.
You do know there are monsters in fel right? Not only that but the monsters in fel are more dangerous because you have to use stamina to push past them. The rest of this paragraph is just "I don't like how some pvpers act." Me either, but I don't see why that's relevant to risk. PVP in fel is more risky, I don't think this is all that debatable. If someone can come in and attack you in one area and not in another, the latter is on average much safer.
Pvpers already have access to everything you have access to, and vice versa, pvpers may not love the idea of tram, but they go there to do what they need to do, and complain about it far less. I don't see how you don't get the fact that the competition over scrolls is predicated on necessity. If you can get them somewhere else the need to compete over scrolls is gone.
Right, worse options than the ones they already had, as I already explained, ones that no one wants, and no one would use. PLUS pvpers would no longer have the option to look for spawns to raid, because they would no longer be done in fel. The thing that makes spawns fun for people to pvp over is again, the fact that that's the only place you can get scrolls. That is the whole of the idea. The fight has unique value.
Well, considering that the majority of players play in tram, and all items of value outside of scrolls (and lich spawn items I guess) are native to tram, id imagine that's a given, yeah? Though if you think that scrolls would still mostly come from tram, I don't see how, even with like a 10% drop rate. Way more people, freedom to run spawns (or script in complete safety if you ascribe to that) all day and all night well that's gonna be a scroll farm. Seriously, baracoon would be run all day long. There would just be a billion people down there spamming and running the spawn like 10 times an hour... all day, every day.
As I've said multiple times, I don't pk, pvp, or anything of that nature. So I can't answer that question.
I try not to speak for others, I speak for myself, and on the things I've observed. This is certainly not an argument I see often. I do think the experience is much more dynamic and fun when pvp is open, and everything that people complain about like power creep, inflation, player interdependance, inflation and other economy woes are all much less pervasive. I think people really underaccount the damage that nonstop farming can do to every aspect of the game. Of course you have to find a balance, and I think pre tram UO lacked that balance. I think Siege lacks that balance too, but it's closer anyway.
How is it not fair?
While as a tamer, I think the issue of pet scrolls is dramatically overblown, as the difference between 110 scrolls and 120 scrolls on all but a few pet skills is almost invisible, I think they should just make pet only scrolls that drop in the spawn rather than the boss. Heck, make them uncursed if you want. Should help cut back demand a bit.
No, they shouldn't have. Since its inception, Tram ruleset gets a VAST majority of the content in this game. Fel has gotten maybe 1% of the content updates since 2002. It's *checks calendar* almost September in 2018. 16 years.
As a thief... I couldn't possibly agree with this more.
I'm aware you know there are monsters in fel, it was a facetious statement meant to highlight your poor argument. I argued that fel had more risk, your counter to that it did not have more risk, the risks were only different. The whole of your stated evidence of that claim was:
This is a statement that seemingly ignores the fact that the same monsters are also in fel, are more dangerous in fel (because of pushthrough code) and that on top of the more dangerous pvm elements you can also potentially have another player trying to kill you, invariably this will also happen at the same time compounding the risk of the moment. Not that it matters, but I don't think you can argue that fel is not more dangerous.
I have to say this again, I don't care about "fel arguments" or what any other people argue, I don't know why you keep asking me to defend positions I haven't taken. I speak for myself, period.
Now, now, don't criticize people for trying to defend their arguments.
Actually there are people who want to "buy" fel. The people who play there. The people you admit play there. It's not kept alive by anything other than the fact that some portion of the population likes to pvp, simple as that. If you took away scrolls fel would still be a thing, it would just lose it's main attraction, I don't think that's fair.
The only "documented facts" you have presented are that mmos with no open pvp are more successful, never something I refuted, something I in fact pointed out (though I don't think it's a simple black and white issue) to be generally true in a post with another poster in this thread, so you are barking up the wrong tree. My argument is that if UO is going to be a game with some for of open pvp it needs to be protected and supported, not that it makes for a more successful game.
... you ignored me every time I said it and continued to lump me in with the supposed views of group of people. I mean, I have said multiple times in this thread that I am not a pvper, I am just not in support doing more damage to pvpers than has already been done, and on those grounds I think your proposal is a bad idea. I feel like you aren't even reading anything I type, just going on the assumptions you have of me.
I was thinking about something like that. Crazy low tram drop rate so it makes sense to 90% of people would rather risk being pked. The people who can't stand fel can farm endlessly for what they want. I also think it would encourage people who don't know each other to spawn together, knowing that they won't just get pked at the end. I just worry about people farming tram endlessly until scrolls are worthless. Even with low drop rate the 10s and 15s add up. Maybe limit tram spawns to 1 scroll per person? It would have to be such a low drop rate that the VAST majority would still prefer fel, but people that are insane enough to do tram spawns for a 5% chance at a 120 would still be happy to have the option.
Eh, I mean if scrolls in in in tram they are going to get farmed into the ground obviously, and I think that in any scenario the average fel averse tram player would find adequate they would lost a ton of value pretty fast. If you let that cat out of the bag there's really no getting it back in. Generally the alteration of his idea is simply to allow pvpers to gear more easily, as well as absorb the economic value lost by the inevitable scroll inflation.
Well, I certainly can't and shouldn't speak for people who play regular shards, as it wouldn't affect me, and I also don't think they should be in tram. I'm just saying if the idea is that they must be in tram (I don't think they must) you really have to throw fel players a bone to make up for it.
Yeah, I actually suggested that they just drop from spawn at champ spawns, so like in cases you might get a 105, or a pink, you could also get a pet scroll. You wouldn't have to stick around and kill something hard even, youd just be in a contested zone.
Well let's see here.....
My only intent was to try to work with the idea you presented so that both parties might be better satisfied, It was merely spitballing. I was hoping it would open up a different avenue of discussion since we seemed to just be going around in circles, I didn't really expect it to, but hey. I have in no way tried to troll you, in fact I've been trying my best not to say anything that might be taken as an insult, and I even defended you from another poster, because I was just trying to have a conversation about something I think is an important aspect of the game. I may have gotten a bit too heated (I can't judge that) but that was primarily because you kept ignoring things I said, and kept trying to couch what I was saying inside of someone else's perspective. My bad If so.
It's not enough to "sustain a business" (in this case, UO) because of the lack of content it's given. While it's an apples to oranges comparison, games that are purely pvp (Fortnite, pubg, League, etc. Or big name tournaments like Evo for fighting games for Street Fighter) are still massively popular. Sure, the audience is different - I would guess that the audience for those games are teens and 20/30-somethings, for the most part. I'm in my early 30's (32); how much of UO's current playerbase is older (i.e. 50's, 60's) than that? Older players aren't as likely to be interested in pvp, at least not to the extent of a younger generation. While they may pvp occasionally, the older you are, the less likely it is that you think and react as quickly as someone who's several years younger than you.
VvV needs a lot more content, but essentially that's what it's for. A nice Battle Royal system anyone could join where you don't lose any stuff would be cool too.
It needs better rewards for actually doing the vvv battles.
Yeah for sure. I think that factions was a more interesting idea.
