Why ca

[Scribbles]

This is why I watned them to bring back Order/Chaos. You want to PvP, sign up for one side or the other. And let it work in any facet. Don't want to PvP, don't sign up and be safe anywhere.

But instead we got yet another overthought underused system added to the game.

IF PvP'ers were really supporting this game with numbers, like they claim (you know, "if you run off the PvP'ers the game will close down!") you wouldn't be having to force people to go to Fel champs for scrolls and get raided. There would be plenty of Pvp action all over the place, because there are so many pvp'ers.

Truth is, all 15 of you pvp'ers can quit today, and in two months we will have recovered. You can flame me all you want, but everyone knows, deep in the depths of their minds and hearts, you mostly just want sheep to slaughter.

Please go to fel ATL yew gate. Count the houses. While i would never argue that pvpers make up a majority of the game i would argue they are a significant part of the game. Saying there are 15 pvpers makes your post almost pointless as it could debunk everything you have said.

However, I do agree about the order vs chaos bit and definitely agree about the "overthought underused system"

Scrolls dont belong in trammel, point period end of story. It is literally the only thing worth fighting for other than perhaps a fel IDOC. And pointless pvp is not what most of us want to do. we want to fight and win something.

You literally have 98 percent of the game in trammel. Please leave the last 2% in fel.

 

[Anon McDougle]

IF PVPers wanted to fight other PVP people all the time they could but when i suggest they start a guild war and they talk about their poor crafter getting ganked in luna it makes me wonder if they don't have a little tram care bear inside themselves...

 

[Finley Grant]

Can someone explain the issue of the OP to me?

There are more than one option go get PS.
So if you don't want to get to fel. Do trammie stuff and buy it.

I go to fel for spawn. I also get raided sometimes. That's the risk. And?

I can guarantee you even if you finish your champ the chance of getting the exact 120 ps you need is small it may never drop. So what would you do then?

Wait forever or buy it?

It's not different for other stuff. Make money with what comes up and then buy what you need.

Sorry but PS is the 1 of the 2 things you cannot get in tram and that's fine

You have about 100 other things you can do.

It's funny that only non fel people complain
I have never seen a red guy complain he has no navrey to do because he wants to get his tangle himself...

 

[Mene (DF)]

It's more fun to complain... äh ... compute

 

[GarthGrey]

Please go to fel ATL yew gate. Count the houses. While i would never argue that pvpers make up a majority of the game i would argue they are a significant part of the game. Saying there are 15 pvpers makes your post almost pointless as it could debunk everything you have said.

However, I do agree about the order vs chaos bit and definitely agree about the "overthought underused system"

Scrolls dont belong in trammel, point period end of story. It is literally the only thing worth fighting for other than perhaps a fel IDOC. And pointless pvp is not what most of us want to do. we want to fight and win something.

You literally have 98 percent of the game in trammel. Please leave the last 2% in fel.

How would scrolls in Trammel, prevent PvPrs who claim to only want to fight in Felucca from getting their fight on still ? True PvPrs would still have their champ spawn fights with other PvPrs, what you would no longer have is the stranglehold over scrolls and their prices for the entire shard(s). PS's in trammel shouldn't affect ANY pvpr in Felucca, not if you're being honest with yourself and the rest of us.

 

[GarthGrey]

I have never seen a red guy complain he has no navrey to do because he wants to get his tangle himself...

That's because he logs in his blue, or he eats a royal , and then goes to Trammel . People who don't like to PvP, can't log on their red or their "main" and go do spawns. This argument is old and tired, and this is coming from a player that plays primarily on Siege, where PvPrs do both, they do spawns and they PvM in the same ruleset. They don't farm scrolls, and then run to Trammel to sell them, they don't pvp at Yew gate and then run to Luna to gloat about it. I'm not a very good pvpr, but I've done it, both of my main characters on Siege are scrolled out, 90% of them were gotten by myself, but I'm still of the opinion that scrolls should be available in Trammel in 2018.

 

[Finley Grant]

No one is stopping you from going to a spawn.

Just go there in a group problem solved... It's a mmorpg, should not be an issue to find other players.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

How would scrolls in Trammel, prevent PvPrs who claim to only want to fight in Felucca from getting their fight on still ? True PvPrs would still have their champ spawn fights with other PvPrs, what you would no longer have is the stranglehold over scrolls and their prices for the entire shard(s). PS's in trammel shouldn't affect ANY pvpr in Felucca, not if you're being honest with yourself and the rest of us.

I'll use the Masteries Primer system implementation to counter your point.

Great system in itself, a lot of work put into the Masteries, Primers dropped in both Felucca and Trammel spawns.

The entire system, and content that could have endured far better wiped out almost instantly. It's a dead system. May as well not be there anymore.

Now players will want more ingame content - there would have been no need if they had implemented in a better way instead of giving it away too cheaply in Trammel at spawns.

If you want to kill off another system, and make the game even more dead and content lacking, put powerscrolls in Trammel. The problem is, Trammel is too easy.

 

[Fridgster]

I'll use the Masteries Primer system implementation to counter your point.

Great system in itself, a lot of work put into the Masteries, Primers dropped in both Felucca and Trammel spawns.

The entire system, and content that could have endured far better wiped out almost instantly. It's a dead system. May as well not be there anymore.

Now players will want more ingame content - there would have been no need if they had implemented in a better way instead of giving it away too cheaply in Trammel at spawns.

If you want to kill off another system, and make the game even more dead and content lacking, put powerscrolls in Trammel. The problem is, Trammel is too easy.

Not really an apples to apples comparison. Once a character eats a primer they no longer need it and therefore are no longer in the market for one. Very similar to powerscrolls before the pet revamp. Before the pet revamp PS where for the most part reasonably priced and 110s and 115s could be found lying on the ground. Same now holds true for primers.

 

[drcossack]

It is common courtesy to rez someone back up and get them going again. Some people play to just make other people waste time. I agree that is sad.

Depends on the person (there are people I'll rk over and over if the opportunity arises, for personal reasons) or where the fight is - at Yew Gate I'll just ignore you, you can go back to a healer. At a champ spawn, if someone (who I know is a pvp'er) gets res'd during the fight and I see it, I'll go for another kill shot, no questions asked.

Well you are one of the rare ones nowadays. We have some on our shard now that just come out to the spawn, not to get the scrolls, but simply to screw up our chance at getting them. They don't wait until the spawn is almost over to kill us, heck most don't even complete the one we are doing. They simply want us to give them a count or they want to simply have any easy kill. They love rez/killing too and to me thats just a cowardly move. It gets very annoying when you don't like PvPing and your aren't even challenge to them. When you are 1 or 2 people doing the spawn and there are 5 to 6 Pvper's that just isn 't fair odds.

Not that rare, I'd imagine, but it depends on the player. I don't (usually) go after people who are easy kills, because there's no challenge to it. I've done pvp/online vs matches in other games; most of those games have no additional reward involved - actually winning is the reward, and where the challenge comes in. In UO, random fights don't necessarily have the same excitement for me; it depends on the person's skill level though. Having something to fight over (powerscrolls) is more appealing to me, because it's a definite goalpost.

Among the online games, UO's pvp system is still one of the most fun I've come across, despite the flaws. Could it use a massive overhaul? Of course. But that's a discussion for another time and a can of worms I'm not going to open.

 

[GarthGrey]

I'll use the Masteries Primer system implementation to counter your point.

Great system in itself, a lot of work put into the Masteries, Primers dropped in both Felucca and Trammel spawns.

The entire system, and content that could have endured far better wiped out almost instantly. It's a dead system. May as well not be there anymore.

Now players will want more ingame content - there would have been no need if they had implemented in a better way instead of giving it away too cheaply in Trammel at spawns.

If you want to kill off another system, and make the game even more dead and content lacking, put powerscrolls in Trammel. The problem is, Trammel is too easy.

How does taking a lot of gold out of a few hands, kill any system that wasnt running properly in the first place ?

 

[Uriah Heep]

Ingame, as in life, it's awful hard to tear down a monopoly. Believe some of the conspiracy theories you hear...The vast majority of the playerbase are pvm'ers and others, pvp is a small minority. Yet their incomes are protected fiercely, by design. someone somewhere is cashing in...


$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

How does taking a lot of gold out of a few hands, kill any system that wasnt running properly in the first place ?

The powerscroll and champion spawn system, is probably the longest, most successful and best running system ingame?
Name me anything that even gets close?
(We wouldn't all be fighting over it, if it wasn't).


If you want to take gold out of players hands, to combat the effects of scripting, duping, multiboxing, multiclienting and pvming in Trammel for absolutely no risk - then do a complete gold wipe?
{Delete Trammel is my preferred option, remove all drops from Trammel is my second option, but I'll settle for a third option of a complete goldwipe}.
I'd be all for it. So you see, I'm not about the gold, I don't care about the gold, wipe it all, restart everyone from scratch.
I think you'll find it's not the pvpers, or the powerscroll hunters who resist that one.

Put all gathered resources on a 20 day timer, so they can't be scripted, stacked, duped, horded, to wipe out all crafting systems.
Again, I'd back you up, again, it would cost me as much as you, or anyone, and I would back you up.
If you want to adjust the broken economy, and gold inbalance, hit that problem hard where it counts?

The answer isn't messing around with the only ingame system still working.
(Admittedly under stress due to Tamers pets, but at any point in the games history, there has always been a flavour of the month set of skills that have created a different set of powerscroll requirements).

 

[Anon McDougle]

The powerscroll and champion spawn system, is probably the longest, most successful and best running system ingame?
Name me anything that even gets close?
(We wouldn't all be fighting over it, if it wasn't).


If you want to take gold out of players hands, to combat the effects of scripting, duping, multiboxing, multiclienting and pvming in Trammel for absolutely no risk - then do a complete gold wipe?
{Delete Trammel is my preferred option, remove all drops from Trammel is my second option, but I'll settle for a third option of a complete goldwipe}.
I'd be all for it. So you see, I'm not about the gold, I don't care about the gold, wipe it all, restart everyone from scratch.
I think you'll find it's not the pvpers, or the powerscroll hunters who resist that one.

Put all gathered resources on a 20 day timer, so they can't be scripted, stacked, duped, horded, to wipe out all crafting systems.
Again, I'd back you up, again, it would cost me as much as you, or anyone, and I would back you up.
If you want to adjust the broken economy, and gold inbalance, hit that problem hard where it counts?

The answer isn't messing around with the only ingame system still working.
(Admittedly under stress due to Tamers pets, but at any point in the games history, there has always been a flavour of the month set of skills that have created a different set of powerscroll requirements).

I agree and support this 100%

what UO needs is the Apocalypse tear it all down and start over I know everyone says we'd leave if we lost it all but i do not believe it to be true . take both the CC and the EC and shred them until you get to the first as they call it spaghetti string of code then rebuild them both ....

 

[Uriah Heep]

I agree and support this 100%

what UO needs is the Apocalypse tear it all down and start over I know everyone says we'd leave if we lost it all but i do not believe it to be true . take both the CC and the EC and shred them until you get to the first as they call it spaghetti string of code then rebuild them both ....

Or keep whats there and run an emulator for new and better shards...basement kids and freeshards do it successfully. BS is the only ones that can't make that work

 

[Cyrah]

I like power scrolls they make me all sparkly. They belong in Fel. Either buy or do not buy. Either get your own self or do not. Choices.

 

[Scribbles]

How would scrolls in Trammel, prevent PvPrs who claim to only want to fight in Felucca from getting their fight on still ? True PvPrs would still have their champ spawn fights with other PvPrs, what you would no longer have is the stranglehold over scrolls and their prices for the entire shard(s). PS's in trammel shouldn't affect ANY pvpr in Felucca, not if you're being honest with yourself and the rest of us.

PS in trammel would extremely undervalue them. Think about how many script farmers could run 24/7, not to mention the regular players that could run the 24/7 unchecked. Champ spawns are extremely easy to do an take very little time. I would estimate that the price in scrolls would drop significantly because of this and thereby ruin any worth to actually doing the champ spawn in fell. Again PvP with no objective is boring. The most succesful PvP games out there (Call of Duty, League of Legends, Overwatch, Battlefield etc...) All have an objective to the fighting.


Furthermore you completely missed the part in my post that states "you have 98% of the game in trammel, leave the last 2% to us in fel" The game has catered nonstop to the trammel lifestyle and honestly i dont mind that. Trammel players make up a huge portion of the game. However the PvPers that are left deserve something of their own. and that is scrolls. So even if you dont buy my "undervalue" argument you have to admit champ spawns in fel are the last straw for PvPers and Fel residents alike.

 

[Pawain]

I like power scrolls they make me all sparkly. They belong in Fel. Either buy or do not buy. Either get your own self or do not. Choices.

You are blinded by Llama tears. Do Llamas eat scrolls? I think they spit them out!

 

[MrMightySmith]

Were on publish 101. Powerscrolls were issued back in 2002 along with publish 16 as a fel only item. People actually think they are going to convince the Devs to change something that has worked for 85 publishes and 16 years because they want PS to be more obtainable. On top of everything Powerscrolls ARE NOT EVEN THAT EXPENSIVE relative too everything else in the game. There are 4 Tactics 120 scrolls hovering around 45-50m on ATL. The most ironic thing about this whole argument is the most expensive Powerscroll on search right now you can already get in trammel.

 

[Syncros]

I like other games where I just need to play enough and get better gear to be competitive.

I shouldn't need to go to some outdated facet with different rules to get items I can't get anywhere else without paying exorbitant amounts of gold to some other player just to be competitive.

Stygian Abyss was the last expac that had a full team, everything else just got smaller and smaller and so things cant change as some wish they could.

Not to mention there is so many issues that need to get fixed/changed for the better (read better for the game not players wallets) that isn't getting done fast enough.

Personally I don't think anything but a total revamp could save UO.

 

[Uvtha]

We just rather not PvP at this point in our lives anymore

I don't pvp. I get my own scrolls. So do a ton of other people. Plus I play on a shard where it actually matters when you die.

 

[Uvtha]

I shouldn't need to go to some outdated facet with different rules to get items I can't get anywhere else without paying exorbitant amounts of gold to some other player just to be competitive.

Why's that, because you don't want to? It's only a big deal if you make it one.

 

[Theo_GL]

Every new content addition in the last like... 15 years has been in tram. Fel has gotten only one or two unique things in that whole time, and they were just new champs spawns, and a few pvp "systems" of varying quality. The only unique drop of any value that fel has is power scrolls. That's the reason.



Then buy your scrolls, or get killed by pks a few times getting them yourself.

This has been addressed time and time and time and time and time and time again. This is never going to change. Tram gets almost literally every other content addition, and will continue to until the game closes. You can deal with *one* thing, a thing that was originally designed to be pvped over (the only thing outside of generally meaningless factions/vvv for pvpers to fight over) not being in tram.

In closing firstly I also agree, 120's for pets are dramatically overrated. If you run the numbers the benefits (for wrestling especially) are tragically low relative to the cost difference between a 115 or a 110 even and a 120. Like you wouldn't even ever notice low. The only pet skills that really need to be 120 are the magic skills. Everything else will be like 1-3% worse or something paultry like that. Just give your pet the 110, and leave the extra 10 points left over incase you ever find the 120 to upgrade. The pet will still be silly powerful.

Secondly, to reiterate, scrolls are not that hard to get, even if you are a useless in pvp trammie. Just run them constantly. You may get killed a lot, but so what? You lose nothing but a tiny bit of gold, and a bit of time. The more you run them the better and faster you get, and the better and faster you get the more spawns you get through without being interrupted. If you are in a guild setup watchers, and use voice chat to minimize damage from raids.

The post wins. Exactly. Even on GL I can finish spawns solo at times. If the group of people that run the Ilsh spawns would go to Fel spawns they could turn them over in 30 minutes before PK's roll in. If you get raided 4 out of 10 times - so what - you still get 6 done with 12 scrolls each. Lesson here - don't do fire. Do other locations. Learn how to kill something other than coon. You will get raided in Fire but if you go out and do Khaldun or Oasis or the island or ice etc you will have a chance.

Your other option is do tram content to get drops then sell for scrolls. That works too.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

The post wins. Exactly. Even on GL I can finish spawns solo at times. If the group of people that run the Ilsh spawns would go to Fel spawns they could turn them over in 30 minutes before PK's roll in. If you get raided 4 out of 10 times - so what - you still get 6 done with 12 scrolls each. Lesson here - don't do fire. Do other locations. Learn how to kill something other than coon. You will get raided in Fire but if you go out and do Khaldun or Oasis or the island or ice etc you will have a chance.

Your other option is do tram content to get drops then sell for scrolls. That works too.

I have posted a video on these Stratics forums, of us completing a spawn in 7 minutes.

Don't ask me to find it

 

[Uvtha]

Your other option is do tram content to get drops then sell for scrolls. That works too.

Exactly. The vast majority of the high market drops are in tram.

I have posted a video on these Stratics forums, of us completing a spawn in 7 minutes.

Don't ask me to find it

Honestly UO is a completely egalitarian system. If you want something all you have to do is put in the effort, everyone is equal.

 

[celticus]

View attachment 85315

Im pretty sure i can deal even against good pvps

my suit have kinetic 27, hpr14 mr12 sr18

not using pots, i still need refine the pieces, but is so hard find good hide invul

Wholly crap : Stats are awesome..Can you please post your gear. Would really appreciate. Id like to have my Sampire geared up like this if I can dream..?

 

[Swordsman]

I have no issue playing at Fel side and doing the champ. However, one of the issues is that the teleporters connecting the champ areas makes scripter too easy and too fast to patrol all areas. Those teleporters shall be disabled. This change will complicate their patrol operation and put effort to re-write scripts.

 

[TB Cookie [W]]

I have no issue playing at Fel side and doing the champ. However, one of the issues is that the teleporters connecting the champ areas makes scripter too easy and too fast to patrol all areas. Those teleporters shall be disabled. This change will complicate their patrol operation and put effort to re-write scripts.

It takes me about 20+ minutes to effectively scout every champ spawn location (Try it yourself and time yourself, just out of interest, there are 20 odd spawn locations). As a PKer, you are only going to do this comprehensively once a day, you just can't be that motivated or have that much time.

It has happened to me before, that I have scouted Despise, scouted all the other Champ spawns, and got back to Despise, just as players have jumped through the gates having completed it.

99% of PvPers do not scout spawns, they are too lazy, they want the fight to come to them (Yew Gate), rather than go looking for it, or creating it. On our server, I can count on 1 hand, how many players actually scout spawns (Mervyn, Psycho, Myself, erm...).

My point is, I do not believe the current system is too easy for PKers. As a PvMer, you have 24 hours in a day, and these guys only operate within a window of about 2 hours, it takes them 20+ minutes for a full scout, they will only do that once a day, and there are only about 4 of them who do this. Stay off the beaten track a little, I know guys who spawn almost non stop without being found.

 

[Uvtha]

Stay off the beaten track a little, I know guys who spawn almost non stop without being found.

I bet you could run that t2a one you have to sail to with very little interruption. If someone isn't logged out there, I really doubt they make the effort to get a boat involved.

 

[drcossack]

My point is, I do not believe the current system is too easy for PKers. As a PvMer, you have 24 hours in a day, and these guys only operate within a window of about 2 hours, it takes them 20+ minutes for a full scout, they will only do that once a day, and there are only about 4 of them who do this. Stay off the beaten track a little, I know guys who spawn almost non stop without being found.

When I check spawns, it's ALWAYS the ones in dungeons/with dungeon access (except Abyssal, which is out of the way) and Oaks. If I'm in the mood, I will check specific t2a spawns: City of the Dead, Marble, Ice East, and Damwin for the most part. On rare occasions I add Desert and Oasis.

 

[Basara]

I can think of a decent compromise. The Clean-up point system (which already has random alacrity scrolls)

1. Add some more drops with a decent clean-up turn-in value (5-10k) to the non-fel spawns.
2. Add a choice in the clean-up system at about 50,000 to 100,000 for a single random Powerscroll of a power comparable to a spawn drop.
3. (Optional) you could also have pet-only PS at a lower cost option, with of course the selection reduced to those pets can use.

This allows those who won't go to Fel a chance to get powerscrolls through actual effort (even if that effort is cleaning out their storage, or doing a half-dozen Ilshenar champs), but they are just as likely to get a crappy 110 as someone that was farming a Fel spawn - and at a far slower rate than actually doing the Fel spawns. Hell, you could even have it to where the person getting the random scroll could get screwed, and receive one of the crafting PS that are normally BOD or Quest rewards, that are outside the Fel system.


OR you could add random 110-120 PS to the Trade Order system, a super-rare not kicking in until after the character has collected (through rewards) all 9 of the city books. Still random, and even fewer and far between - but it would help keep the treasuries funded on the small shards.

 

[Xris]

I think it should cost a lot more than 100k points.

 

[Basara]

I think it should cost a lot more than 100k points.

not with the vast majority being random 110s, that were PS people were tossing on the ground in Luna prior to the pet revamp (and still do for the ones not pet-related).

 

[Swordsman]

It takes me about 20+ minutes to effectively scout every champ spawn location (Try it yourself and time yourself, just out of interest, there are 20 odd spawn locations). As a PKer, you are only going to do this comprehensively once a day, you just can't be that motivated or have that much time.

It has happened to me before, that I have scouted Despise, scouted all the other Champ spawns, and got back to Despise, just as players have jumped through the gates having completed it.

99% of PvPers do not scout spawns, they are too lazy, they want the fight to come to them (Yew Gate), rather than go looking for it, or creating it. On our server, I can count on 1 hand, how many players actually scout spawns (Mervyn, Psycho, Myself, erm...).

My point is, I do not believe the current system is too easy for PKers. As a PvMer, you have 24 hours in a day, and these guys only operate within a window of about 2 hours, it takes them 20+ minutes for a full scout, they will only do that once a day, and there are only about 4 of them who do this. Stay off the beaten track a little, I know guys who spawn almost non stop without being found.

I believe that you only patrol once a day, and have no threat. Disabling the teleporter will increase the amount of time to finish patroling. This will balance between the regular players and controllers.

 

[Swordsman]

I bet you could run that t2a one you have to sail to with very little interruption. If someone isn't logged out there, I really doubt they make the effort to get a boat involved.

I am not sure if you know that all remote champion islands are connected by teleporters. Players have no need to use boat at all.

I can accept players sailing to the islands. What I am talking about is to disable those teleporters connecting to islands.

 

[drcossack]

OR you could add random 110-120 PS to the Trade Order system, a super-rare not kicking in until after the character has collected (through rewards) all 9 of the city books. Still random, and even fewer and far between - but it would help keep the treasuries funded on the small shards.

Or people could, perhaps, stop complaining on the forums, and do spawns for themselves? Novel idea, I know.

 

[Uvtha]

I am not sure if you know that all remote champion islands are connected by teleporters. Players have no need to use boat at all.

I can accept players sailing to the islands. What I am talking about is to disable those teleporters connecting to islands.

Ah, for some reason I thought the Jungly one across the bay to the west of pap was alone out there, my bad.

 

[Uvtha]

This allows those who won't go to Fel a chance to get powerscrolls through actual effort

But, they already have that choice. They can do any of the hundred things you can do in the safety of tram to make millions and buy scrolls. If they added them to the clean up system they would just be bought with afk farmed ingots, or whatever the easiest route to renewable cleanup points is nowadays. Same with bods.

If they wanna up scroll drop rate, add in pet scrolls (I've advocated having pet scrolls drop from spawn, so people working the spawn and missing the boss get value), or or even add in some compensation system for people killed at spawns, that's all fine. As long as it's in fel. Any addition of scrolls to tram will be gamed as efficiently as an afk set up can manage and it will just become a scroll factory, which will negate the whole point of the champ spawn system.

 

[Uvtha]

Or people could, perhaps, stop complaining on the forums, and do spawns for themselves? Novel idea, I know.

The main "problem" with scrolls for years has been that a certain group of people simply refuse to visit fel on principal, making a lot of assumptions about the way things are, and having feelings of (and I hate using this buzzword, but it's very accurate in this case) entitlement to things they refuse to work for. I don't want to bash on people, because I think a lot of people who refuse to go to tram and want scrolls in tram are nice, cool folks, who I just don't think are being reasonable when it comes to this subject.

People who refuse to visit fel and thus be open to pvp have made a choice to limit the game for themselves. I understand that choice 100%, being that I personally don't pvp, but when you make a choice like that you need to accept that there are going to be some downsides. If you don't want to risk getting the scrolls yourself, you need to either get some friends to help, or barter for/buy them.

 

[Basara]

The main "problem" with scrolls for years has been that a certain group of people simply refuse to visit fel on principal, making a lot of assumptions about the way things are,

You mis-spelled "Accurate Assessments".

Granted, it's based in location and time, but I see Fel range from a ghost town, to the things you see as exaggerations/misconceptions being "best case scenarios". It's you, and your comfortable-to-you playstyle, that has put a blindfold on you to keep from seeing how it is for others.

But, they already have that choice. They can do any of the hundred things you can do in the safety of tram to make millions and buy scrolls. If they added them to the clean up system they would just be bought with afk farmed ingots, or whatever the easiest route to renewable cleanup points is nowadays. Same with bods.

Uh, No we don't. You need to get out more to shards that aren't the main 2 or 3, or SP (you're a Siege player, IIRC).

On the shard I play, I've seen useful PS on vendors ONCE since Shard Shields came out (PS vendors were already almost gone 7 years ago, even before then) - and that was a friend's vendor that was bought out within minutes of one of the shard-roaming spawners heard him mention it on general chat, advertising his vendors. People don't even sell ingots here (I've seen people buy vendors out of relatively low-end enhanced gear (55+ resist, before they were enhanced), just to get them to smelt down for the valorite - and the tailor stuff bought to unravel; we can't keep the New Player Center on LA stocked because of all the parasites emptying out the vendors where everything is set to FREE), or most other consumables of value. Almost every transaction for ingots, PS, etc. I've seen since 2013 has been private or semi-private, not involving vendors, and typically involving having to BEG in general chat to try to find someone to part with them. And, often, the spawners with the PS will ask a price for a PS that's 2-3 times the Atlantic price, just because they know if the person's asking, they probably can't get to Atlantic without spending real money, and have the ability to extort a higher price.

EVERYTHING spawn-related gets taken to Atlantic if gotten by the spawner guilds, or hoarded for personal/guild use if those of us who occasionally venture into Fel for a spawn and actually manage do dodge the gank patrol long enough to bring back scrolls.

You are stuck with YOUR unrealistic interpretation that how things work for YOU on your shard, is somehow relevant to all the small shards being sucked bone dry by the roving band of farmers for the Atlantic market. While the rest of us are dependent on our real-life schedules and hoping that the Fel murder-hobos aren't on when we can synchronize getting enough people together to try a quick spawn. And, that is NOT as easy as it sounds.

 

[Xris]

I've played on origin and legends. I think I may have been attacked by 3 pk's total in several months of playing these shards. Just don't do barracoon. That has been my experience on less populated shards (probably 50+ spawns done)

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

This will be the 1st of 2 replies I'll do in this thread. (OK I can't guarantee only replies EVER in the thread, I mean for now.)

One will be on the issue of Fel and Tram generally, the other will be on my proposed solution for the facet loot issue.

This first post is about the Fel/Tram issue generally. I will use standard text that I have developed to deal with custom rules shard threads, but the issues are similar, so most of the text remains appropriate. Any part of it that isn't appropriate likely is due to the origin of this text.

anyway, here goes.

----------------

If the premise of this post were true, the following list of things also would be true.

Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.

But it did happen.

Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.

But it was. (Then see also above.)

Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.

But it was.
Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online

Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the UO anniversary party.

But he did. (There used to be a paraphrase up someplace of the talk he gave; others will remember it though not all will remember it.)

Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.

But they are not.

There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.

But there was.

The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)

But they're not.

There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.

But there are those posts.

Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing.

But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook;

Darkfall Online

Everquest has 66,431;

EverQuest

UO has 27,757.

Ultima Online

(Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters.)

No likes for Shadowbane because it died.

I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number or likes: 3,773.

I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.

Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist.

I could go on and on but that's enough for now. Ultimately the argument of these types of threads is "Trammel failed, because failure is defined by the original poster not liking it."

There was a time when most players would see posts like these and just let them pass by, but I'm glad that time is gone. In not responding to posts like these we run significant risks of letting intense opinion be mistaken for popular opinion.

I don't expect to post in this thread again, however, because it'd be pointless.

 

[Anonymous UOPlayer]

This will be the 2nd of 2 replies I'll do in this thread. (OK I can't guarantee only replies EVER in the thread, I mean for now.)

One will be on the issue of Fel and Tram generally, the other will be on my proposed solution for the facet loot issue.

This second post is about my proposed solution to the issue.

Someone else said that each facet should have things that are unique to it? I only partially agree.

I think that Fel should have access to all the loot and reward of every Tram facet. (all active loot or reward I mean. So if something is discontinued it shouldn't be available in Fel either.) This means all Doom artifacts. All Abyss artifacts. All stealables. Maybe from a new champ spawn or three. Maybe from a beefed-up Harrower. Maybe from some new boss in Khaldun.

HOWEVER: They shouldn't be able to get it as reliably or consistently as it can be gotten in the Tram rules facets the loot is native to.

Similarly though, everything currently available only in Fel should be available somewhere in a Trammel rules facet. Maybe champ spawns, maybe new champ spawns, maybe that Roof encounter thingie. Keep in mind that this isn't just power scrolls: It's Khaldun, it's stat scrolls, it's the Primeval Lich and Abyssal Infernal spawns and all their rewards, etc. Maybe even VvV Artifacts made available as super-expensive purchases from the Despise wisp trader thingie.

HOWEVER: We shouldn't be able to get it as reliably or consistently as it can be gotten in Fel, where that kind of loot is native.

In this manner the various facets retain that which makes them distinctive, yet, also, in this manner everyone has access to everything on their own terms. No need for Fellies to come to the Tram rules facets unless they want to. No need for the majority of us to have to deal with PKs and such.

It's still an option! There's still advantages to crossing the divide. You get the same stuff better and more reliably where that stuff is native to the area. There is incentive, but not the requirement, to try something outside of your comfort zone.

BUT....No one HAS to do what they don't want to do to get what they want. Maybe everyone's stil not happy but my guess is we'll all be a lot happier and maybe we'll even see more, and more fruitful and fun, cross-facet-ing.

 

[Finley Grant]

I can think of a decent compromise. The Clean-up point system (which already has random alacrity scrolls)

1. Add some more drops with a decent clean-up turn-in value (5-10k) to the non-fel spawns.
2. Add a choice in the clean-up system at about 50,000 to 100,000 for a single random Powerscroll of a power comparable to a spawn drop.
3. (Optional) you could also have pet-only PS at a lower cost option, with of course the selection reduced to those pets can use.

This allows those who won't go to Fel a chance to get powerscrolls through actual effort (even if that effort is cleaning out their storage, or doing a half-dozen Ilshenar champs), but they are just as likely to get a crappy 110 as someone that was farming a Fel spawn - and at a far slower rate than actually doing the Fel spawns. Hell, you could even have it to where the person getting the random scroll could get screwed, and receive one of the crafting PS that are normally BOD or Quest rewards, that are outside the Fel system.


OR you could add random 110-120 PS to the Trade Order system, a super-rare not kicking in until after the character has collected (through rewards) all 9 of the city books. Still random, and even fewer and far between - but it would help keep the treasuries funded on the small shards.

Waste of time. There are lots of ways to get PS in Trammell in place. Certain people are simply to lazy or stupid to use them

 

[Finley Grant]

You mis-spelled "Accurate Assessments".

Granted, it's based in location and time, but I see Fel range from a ghost town, to the things you see as exaggerations/misconceptions being "best case scenarios". It's you, and your comfortable-to-you playstyle, that has put a blindfold on you to keep from seeing how it is for others.



Uh, No we don't. You need to get out more to shards that aren't the main 2 or 3, or SP (you're a Siege player, IIRC).

On the shard I play, I've seen useful PS on vendors ONCE since Shard Shields came out (PS vendors were already almost gone 7 years ago, even before then) - and that was a friend's vendor that was bought out within minutes of one of the shard-roaming spawners heard him mention it on general chat, advertising his vendors. People don't even sell ingots here (I've seen people buy vendors out of relatively low-end enhanced gear (55+ resist, before they were enhanced), just to get them to smelt down for the valorite - and the tailor stuff bought to unravel; we can't keep the New Player Center on LA stocked because of all the parasites emptying out the vendors where everything is set to FREE), or most other consumables of value. Almost every transaction for ingots, PS, etc. I've seen since 2013 has been private or semi-private, not involving vendors, and typically involving having to BEG in general chat to try to find someone to part with them. And, often, the spawners with the PS will ask a price for a PS that's 2-3 times the Atlantic price, just because they know if the person's asking, they probably can't get to Atlantic without spending real money, and have the ability to extort a higher price.

EVERYTHING spawn-related gets taken to Atlantic if gotten by the spawner guilds, or hoarded for personal/guild use if those of us who occasionally venture into Fel for a spawn and actually manage do dodge the gank patrol long enough to bring back scrolls.

You are stuck with YOUR unrealistic interpretation that how things work for YOU on your shard, is somehow relevant to all the small shards being sucked bone dry by the roving band of farmers for the Atlantic market. While the rest of us are dependent on our real-life schedules and hoping that the Fel murder-hobos aren't on when we can synchronize getting enough people together to try a quick spawn. And, that is NOT as easy as it sounds.

Well there it is... YOU made the call to play on a dead shard.

Maybe you should play uo as it was supposed to be. An MMORPG
Get together with friends and do the content. I am not surprised that you don't have any PS. You just cry about instead of doing something against it.

It's simple.
If you don't like that no vendors are stocked... Move to a place where u have vendors stocked
If you don't want to go to fel... Do roofs and sell the drops to buy scrolls.
If no one is selling scrolls on your shard... Go where people are selling them.
And so on.

In the end its all up to you. But yeah wasting hours writing books of complains on statics will definitely not get you scrolls..

As said There are tons of ways. But without doing something none will give you scrolls.

Also even If they would put them in tram spawns you won't get a ****. The pks will still wreck you and take your champ.
If you think you are safe there you are mistaken...

 

[Uvtha]

Granted, it's based in location and time, but I see Fel range from a ghost town, to the things you see as exaggerations/misconceptions being "best case scenarios". It's you, and your comfortable-to-you playstyle, that has put a blindfold on you to keep from seeing how it is for others.

I'm not putting blindfolds on, I understand how people feel about fel they explain it in depth constantly and have for literally over a decade, like I said I don't pvp (unless you call hiding/running when I see a red name pvping), I don't like pvp but I go out of my comfort zone to get my own scrolls, as do many, many, many, others. As anyone can, they just choose not to, and that's 100% fine. The problem is that some people who choose not to expand their comfort zones to get their own scrolls feel that they are being wronged or somehow locked out of content because they don't want to pvp, with that I disagree based on not only my own, but also mountains of second hand evidence.
Really all I'm saying is that people shouldn't expect to be able to have their cake and eat it too. If you aren't willing to take the risk then you need to accept that you will have to get your scrolls indirectly, which most people do, and there's nothing wrong or unfair about the process/situation.

You are stuck with YOUR unrealistic interpretation that how things work for YOU on your shard, is somehow relevant to all the small shards being sucked bone dry by the roving band of farmers for the Atlantic market. While the rest of us are dependent on our real-life schedules and hoping that the Fel murder-hobos aren't on when we can synchronize getting enough people together to try a quick spawn. And, that is NOT as easy as it sounds.

I base my feelings not only on my own experience, but from the experience of other posters who play regular shards (even Atlantic), several of which have posted in this thread. You need very few people (really you only need one for most of them) to run a spawn, 3 people can easily run a spawn very quickly, and yeah, you will get pked sometimes... so what? Try again, you lost nothing worth mentioning other than a little time. Odds are very good you will get there more often than you get raided.
Are you in a guild? If not, try joining one. If so try to organize regular hunting parties and recruit people who play off hours if possible that can get scrolls for people in exchange for drops from say the roof that are acquired in peak hours by a different guild expedition.
And honestly if your argument for scrolls being in tram is that your schedule doesn't accommodate getting them yourself, I don't think that's fair or reasonable.

 

[Uvtha]

Similarly though, everything currently available only in Fel should be available somewhere in a Trammel rules facet. Maybe champ spawns, maybe new champ spawns, maybe that Roof encounter thingie. Keep in mind that this isn't just power scrolls: It's Khaldun, it's stat scrolls, it's the Primeval Lich and Abyssal Infernal spawns and all their rewards, etc. Maybe even VvV Artifacts made available as super-expensive purchases from the Despise wisp trader thingie.

The problem with equal facet access to drops only benefits tram players. If people want to get a thing or attain a goal they will naturally take the path of least resistance, if the Roof was available in fel, people would still in a vast majority will do the thing in tram. Why? It's easier. The rewards over time will be far, far more substantive. If you move scrolls to tram, just like regular monsters that are 99% farmed in tram, because the rewards are far higher due to lack of risk.

Plus even if you give people in tram scrolls unless it's a substantive source people will still complain. If it is a substantive source it kills the value of fel spawns, plain and simple.

 

[Uvtha]

I've played on origin and legends. I think I may have been attacked by 3 pk's total in several months of playing these shards. Just don't do barracoon. That has been my experience on less populated shards (probably 50+ spawns done)

Out if curiosity do you ever runs spawns in peak hours? Or at least not dead hours?

 

[Xris]

Tbh I don't even know what peak hours are on these servers. I've spawn anywhere from 7am-to midnight EST. I rarely even saw a blue while playing. Especially when I did the further t2a spawns, I never saw anyone

Out if curiosity do you ever runs spawns in peak hours? Or at least not dead hours?

 

[Uvtha]

If the premise of this post were true, the following list of things also would be true...

But the issue here isn't fel people asking to be given something. They are simply arguing against the only thing they have being taken away.

Plus the argument is one layer. I don't think anyone would argue that non pvp games are more popular, that's a given. I do think an argument can be made that games with pvp offer a different experience, and while there are obvious demonstrable downsides to open pvp there are also obvious demonstrable upsides.

Of course the specific rulesets are important. Some open pvp setting don't work, but some can and do, and there are invariably some that have yet to be tried that would be very successful. Giving people an "amusement park" style experience is pretty easy, and it's easy to satisfy a lot of people by doing that, offering a fully open and interactive "sandbox" style experience that has enough rules to limit stress but enough freedom to garner all the natural benefits is very difficult because there are so many more variables.

Fallout 76 is getting a lot of hype for example. Not quite an MMO, but similar. There are innovative ways to integrate net positive open player interaction.