Tamers in PvP

[chad]

Before the new upgrades for pets came out, tamers were barely viable in PvP. Barely viable is just fine. There was like two competitive players using them. Now you've added a whole bunch of upgrades for them and they are significantly worse, making tamers completely junk in PvP.

Maybe lessen the damage reduction from 50% to like 25%. Idk man, but they suck. Pls send help.

 

[Keith of Sonoma]

I agree. The damage from a pet to a person should be raised. I accidentally told my 5 slot fully trained Cu to "all kill" me. By the time I got him off of me I was down to a whopping 77% health. My guildie told me she was surprised it didn't kill me. Until I explained the nerf.

 

[Tyrath]

It was the usual break their template not mine PvP argument that won the day in this thus largely relegating tamers to PvM only. I seriously doubt they will revisit tamers in PvP again anytime soon.

 

[Khyro]

They were viable in PvP after the taming update, but PvPers whined to hell and back over the audacity of anyone bringing pets into PvP

They seemed personally offended at the mere idea of a tamer entering PvP (or being able to defense themselves at a spawn). Instead of learning to adapt or adjust their play style, they chose to just whine and whine and threaten to quit, etc. unless pets/tamers were nerfed.

No, I'm not exaggerating either -- go back in Uhall a couple months and you will find lots of threads of PvPers whining about pets, alongside broadsword "fine tuning" them with a sledgehammer swung at full force.

 

[Martell]

They were viable in PvP after the taming update, but PvPers whined to hell and back over the audacity of anyone bringing pets into PvP

They seemed personally offended at the mere idea of a tamer entering PvP (or being able to defense themselves at a spawn). Instead of learning to adapt or adjust their play style, they chose to just whine and whine and threaten to quit, etc. unless pets/tamers were nerfed.

No, I'm not exaggerating either -- go back in Uhall a couple months and you will find lots of threads of PvPers whining about pets, alongside broadsword "fine tuning" them with a sledgehammer swung at full force.

People asked that they not cast from off screen, move at mounted speed, or do 50+ damage. Those all still sound pretty reasonable to me.

If you go back a couple months, you'd also see the pvpers suggesting that the damage reduction was too much and if you were on TC that was mentioned several times to the devs. The devs simply don't pvp/know the game mechanics and yeah, usually do a bad job of finding the middle ground...

 

[Tyrath]

People asked that they not cast from off screen, move at mounted speed, or do 50+ damage. Those all still sound pretty reasonable to me.

If you go back a couple months, you'd also see the pvpers suggesting that the damage reduction was too much and if you were on TC that was mentioned several times to the devs. The devs simply don't pvp/know the game mechanics and yeah, usually do a bad job of finding the middle ground...

That and removing dismount was what was initially being asked for then the list of pet nerf demands grew and grew and then several of the same folks crying about pets in PvP started calling for heavy nerfs to pets in PvM and the whole thing finally fizzled out and has been pretty much quiet since. Really the last thing I want to see is that opened up again because the squeaky wheels will start crying for more nerfs and who knows what we would end up with then. Its those overpowered mortar and pestels with 250 uses that alchemist are using to crank out potions that we should all be concerned about!

 

[Khyro]

People asked that they not cast from off screen, move at mounted speed, or do 50+ damage. Those all still sound pretty reasonable to me.

If you go back a couple months, you'd also see the pvpers suggesting that the damage reduction was too much and if you were on TC that was mentioned several times to the devs. The devs simply don't pvp/know the game mechanics and yeah, usually do a bad job of finding the middle ground...

There were some legitimate arguments and a few reasonable people suggesting changes, I'll give you that. But the majority of PvPers (at least the vocal ones on stratics), wanted nothing but tamers/pets to be gutted in PvP. I believe it was said on several occasions that "tamers have no place in PvP". Similar to now, I see whine threads from people saying they are "disgusted" that dexxers are now high on the food chain in PvP (I believe the actual phrase used was "their unrightful place"). Fairly certain a lot of PvPers firmly believe PvP is only for mage specs, and if you deviate from the "standard", you are insert insulting phrases here.

 

[Pawain]

They seemed personally offended at the mere idea of a tamer entering PvP (or being able to defense themselves at a spawn). Instead of learning to adapt or adjust their play style, they chose to just whine and whine and threaten to quit, etc. unless pets/tamers were nerfed.

Yup. The loudest complainers did not even play or barely played and were looking for a reason to quit.

Then you have the fantasy stories from @cobb who has yet to show me a pic of him seeing a pet in PvP before the nerf. But he sure claimed they were overpowered.

 

[Tyrath]

Yup. The loudest complainers did not even play or barely played and were looking for a reason to quit.

Then you have the fantasy stories from @cobb who has yet to show me a pic of him seeing a pet in PvP before the nerf. But he sure claimed they were overpowered.

Yeah how many of those post started with "I have not played in (Insert number of Months)" before raging about UO becoming Pokemon Online.

 

[North_LS]

is it really that bad trying to defend yourself in pvp as a tamer these days? im okay with specialized templates - a pvm powerhouse like a tamer really shouldnt be able to fight a dedicated pvp template (which is likely crap for pvm) to a standstill with all other factors being equal. that said, its kinda crap if the tamer doesnt even have a prayer of surviving or defending themselves, no matter what the circumstances are. if the tamer manages to get the upper hand and outplay their attacker, the game mechanics should certainly allow them to make the kill.

my background is one of a long-time pure mage pvper, but since returning to the game i'm really only ever on my tamer.

 

[Max Blackoak]

there are still viable PvP builds for pets and tamers. Those are the ones that caused the drastic nerf because before the nerf they allowed for insta kills or in other cases for pets that couldn't be outrun, dismounted you while the tamer was mounted and/or casted on you from off screen. Now with the nerf in place these templates still work but require a lot more skill on part of the tamer (more than say all kill).

The idea that regular PvM tamers and their pets should be able to compete in PvP is understandable but the logic is kinda flawed. A PvM mage or dexxer will also never be able to compete with a PvPer. That's simply the road UO has taken eversince there was a division between what works in PvM and what works in PvP. That being said there are ways to build your tamer so you'll be able to get out of sticky situations or at least increase survivability. Obviously this will reduce your PvM abilities by a little (e.g. damage output) but you can still do pretty much everything in the game.

If you want to pvp on a tamer you can but you'll have to bring a different pet and template than what you run for your daily PvM content.

 

[chad]

I've played a bushido tamer dexer for nearly a decade, exclusively PvPing. For the first time in UO, the template is not viable. I've tried changing the template up in many different ways with different pets and it's just not worth it to waste 225+ skill points on a character for such little combat effectiveness. Only positive thing about a tamer these days, is looking cute on your mount.

 

[MalagAste]

I've played a bushido tamer dexer for nearly a decade, exclusively PvPing. For the first time in UO, the template is not viable. I've tried changing the template up in many different ways with different pets and it's just not worth it to waste 225+ skill points on a character for such little combat effectiveness. Only positive thing about a tamer these days, is looking cute on your mount.

No it's not worth it your pet may as well be a flyswatter... it will not do squat for damage or anything whoever is attacking you will likely laugh if you hop off your mount and tell it to kill them...

The only time mine did any good in PvP was when it got a HUGE leg up from Rikki... Who dropped the person below 1/2 life in one Stomp .... and my Unicorn then tried to take the person down hitting a nice AI which did moderate damage but still weaker than if my dexer did AI which is laughable considering the Unicorn has 7X the HP/STR that my dexer does and does 1/2 the damage he does... yeah.... so go figure that one. Anyway the unicorn got more excited fighting Rikki than the attacker... so I just invised waited till they got bored and left and went back to helping the Unicorn kill Rikki.

 

[Aibal]

there are still viable PvP builds for pets and tamers. Those are the ones that caused the drastic nerf because before the nerf they allowed for insta kills or in other cases for pets that couldn't be outrun, dismounted you while the tamer was mounted and/or casted on you from off screen. Now with the nerf in place these templates still work but require a lot more skill on part of the tamer (more than say all kill).

The idea that regular PvM tamers and their pets should be able to compete in PvP is understandable but the logic is kinda flawed. A PvM mage or dexxer will also never be able to compete with a PvPer. That's simply the road UO has taken eversince there was a division between what works in PvM and what works in PvP. That being said there are ways to build your tamer so you'll be able to get out of sticky situations or at least increase survivability. Obviously this will reduce your PvM abilities by a little (e.g. damage output) but you can still do pretty much everything in the game.

If you want to pvp on a tamer you can but you'll have to bring a different pet and template than what you run for your daily PvM content.

No. You can't. The devs once again overreacted and brought the nerf stick out. In their eyes, the only viable PvP templates are dexxers. They nerfed tamers into oblivion after FINALLY allowing them to catch up to other templates in PvM/PvP from a damage perspective. They've ignored mages for a while. The PvPer's complained because, after all, if they got owned by a mage tamer and a pet they couldn't talk crap in Gen Chat like they love to do. I loved the whining about a template that had me devoting 340-360 skill points in controlling my pet and then whining on how overpowered that template was in relation to their templates. There is no question which class is preferred by the developers as far as PvP.

 

[cobb]

Imo pvp is well balanced at the moment. One of those rare times in UO. I would not risk throwing off that balance by making unnecessary changes

 

[cobb]

But I would still suggest removing dismount ability from pets altogether if any changes were to be made.

 

[Drakelord]

Here a funny little tale from Siege, out for a walk on her Nightmare she was, with a runebug in tow. There a red, OMG, dismounts, "all kill" hides. Of course, the red leads those pets all over till they blocked up, trapped behind a building, rock etc. Then back to where that nasty tamer was, of course, this red is equipped with tracking, but there a happy ending for the tamer, she escapes, her skills in ninja stealth and use of shadowing blocks the tracking as she stealths off from the red. Lesson learned for that tamer, avoid Pk'ers like they have the plague

 

[Poo]

i was one of the - if not the first - dismount tamer in UO.
i rolled factions for years upon years and it was fun.
it was the only viable way for me with my crappy internet connection to be able to pvp and not insta die.
i still died a LOT but at least i was able to clip some people from time to time.

then i got away from pvp over the last couple years, shorty after factions left.
but once the new pets came out i went out and thought id test my new pets.
so i got a guild mate who still pvp's to stand out front of my fel castle on his pvp dude and i told my pet to kill him.
5 slot uber maxed out pet....... nothing.
guild mate was laughing in TS.
pet was barely scratching him and he was using the odd heal or pot.
we ran through pretty much all 42 of my pets and nothing.
it was beyond being a joke.

so that was it for me.
its not a fact that they nerfed tamers in pvp, they killed tamers in pvp.
hell i got raided last week while doing a coon and in the old days you could at least tell your pet to kill a red and run away and make an attempt at an escape, when i told my pet to kill the red dropped me and toyed with my pet, never taking any damage, took him seconds.

they should have just come out and said what it was they wanted to say but where too afraid to voice.
they for whatever reason dont want tamers in pvp or fel.
which is strange, considering the amount of players that use tamers to kill that template for everything that has even a remote chance of having some aspect or contact with pvp is so strange.

guess we just chalk that up to an epic mistake from the dev team, something we can look back at years from now and say "yup, that was one of the bigger nails in the coffin"

on a related note, anyone notice that the people who cry the most about what to kill off in pvp are the ones in general chat who constantly complain that there is no one to pvp with anymore?
"blah, tamers should be nerfed...... why is there no one in fel anymore to play with me?"

but what do they care, they all leave and leave us with the ****ty changes they demanded.

 

[Fridgster]

i was one of the - if not the first - dismount tamer in UO.
i rolled factions for years upon years and it was fun.
it was the only viable way for me with my crappy internet connection to be able to pvp and not insta die.
i still died a LOT but at least i was able to clip some people from time to time.

then i got away from pvp over the last couple years, shorty after factions left.
but once the new pets came out i went out and thought id test my new pets.
so i got a guild mate who still pvp's to stand out front of my fel castle on his pvp dude and i told my pet to kill him.
5 slot uber maxed out pet....... nothing.
guild mate was laughing in TS.
pet was barely scratching him and he was using the odd heal or pot.
we ran through pretty much all 42 of my pets and nothing.
it was beyond being a joke.

so that was it for me.
its not a fact that they nerfed tamers in pvp, they killed tamers in pvp.
hell i got raided last week while doing a coon and in the old days you could at least tell your pet to kill a red and run away and make an attempt at an escape, when i told my pet to kill the red dropped me and toyed with my pet, never taking any damage, took him seconds.

they should have just come out and said what it was they wanted to say but where too afraid to voice.
they for whatever reason dont want tamers in pvp or fel.
which is strange, considering the amount of players that use tamers to kill that template for everything that has even a remote chance of having some aspect or contact with pvp is so strange.

guess we just chalk that up to an epic mistake from the dev team, something we can look back at years from now and say "yup, that was one of the bigger nails in the coffin"

on a related note, anyone notice that the people who cry the most about what to kill off in pvp are the ones in general chat who constantly complain that there is no one to pvp with anymore?
"blah, tamers should be nerfed...... why is there no one in fel anymore to play with me?"

but what do they care, they all leave and leave us with the ****ty changes they demanded.

I wish I could have liked this post more than once.

 

[Fridgster]

Imo pvp is well balanced at the moment. One of those rare times in UO. I would not risk throwing off that balance by making unnecessary changes

You underestimate many of your peers. I'm sure they'll find something they want nerfed. Even if it's been around for 20 years.

 

[Drowy]

My biggest problem with pets in pvp is that they are too slow. If you wanna follow someone, you always have to wait for your pet every few tiles. If they would follow you step by step and maybe attack a little faster, I would be fine with pets in pvp.

 

[Pawain]

But I would still suggest removing dismount ability from pets altogether if any changes were to be made.

Can you post a pic of a pet that has dismounted you please. I doubt you have ever seen a Tamer in fel.

 

[Pawain]

on a related note, anyone notice that the people who cry the most about what to kill off in pvp are the ones in general chat who constantly complain that there is no one to pvp with anymore?
"blah, tamers should be nerfed...... why is there no one in fel anymore to play with me?"

Exactly. They dont want anyone to actually compete with them. they are mad that others are having fun, so they want to keep that as the status quo.

Our guild has picked up at least 30 returning and new player members since the pet revamp. Pets would be a way to get people in Fel. They clearly do not want fel to succeed.

 

[cobb]

Pets would be a way to get people in Fel. They clearly do not want fel to succeed.

You sure about that? Because that is not what happened to Fel during the Pet Revamp. Fel became very empty. Because of the pvp tamer imbalance, most pvpers stopped playing for a while. About 80% left the game. They did not come back until the pets were brought back to reasonable levels. Pvp came extremely close to being completely destroyed forever.

 

[celticus]

You sure about that? Because that is not what happened to Fel during the Pet Revamp. Fel became very empty. Because of the pvp tamer imbalance, most pvpers stopped playing for a while. About 80% left the game. They did not come back until the pets were brought back to reasonable levels. Pvp came extremely close to being completely destroyed forever.

PVP is actual super player skill and it should be : Pvpers know the game mechanics and specialize in just ONE thing: To kill other players. There is no way any pet, even before the ninja nerfs, with pets doing 100% damage, could stop a GOOD PVPer. The PVPer would go not after the pet but after the tamer, in no time at all, and he could go through 5 tamers in a row with ease! And that is before the nerf, with 100% damaging pets, not 25% damaging.. But that would require that the PVPer would have REAL skill doing so. What the ninja nerf stick that hit the PVP pets did is : It made it easier for POOR PVPers, or the ones that have no real PVP playing skills to "PVP" or more frequently PK.
Thats my 10 cents, and I think that since obtaining PS became so important for tamers, and the only way to get them is to go to the PVP land, why nuke their weapons-pets?
Let me know how that makes sense for you, and also let me know the ethical reasoning for not PVP but PK that is 1000% a different thing. Looks like we have a conflict of interest here, and that PVP-Pkers have the upper hand again, i.e. players that have no honor or scrupples and would kill players that DO NOT want to PVP..
I think that Pets should have 100% damage against reds, if not 200%, as a penalty for being a CRIMINAL in this game. Again still I think that EVEN if the damage is not 25% as is now but 200% (as it should be for the above reasons), a "good" PVPer, can and will go through 5 tamers at a time EASILY, but may have a little challenge with higher hitting pets, that is if the tamer EVER gets a chance to say "all kill", and the tamer most of the time will not even know what hit him.(That is from a GOOD PVPer, not a newby, or a "wannabe" PVPer or PKer that has no good skills).
I also think radically in terms of FORGED PARDONS : I think that if you decide to be a criminal in UO-land, you should sustain REAL consequences, and there should be no pardons. This part of the system should be revisited. If you commit a crime murdering another player the consequences should be dire and irreversible, not reversible as it is now. Also if you get killed as a red, then the player who killed you should remove your head and keep it hostage, for whatever reward : money, or jail time for 1-2 months, or perm keep the head so you will not play again,etc, as is with some other UO offspins. Any rate forged pardons should not be able to be obtained, or : if a red uses a forged pardon there should be a chance of serious consequences like perm death of red character, stat loss or other..

 

[Pawain]

You sure about that? Because that is not what happened to Fel during the Pet Revamp. Fel became very empty. Because of the pvp tamer imbalance, most pvpers stopped playing for a while. About 80% left the game. They did not come back until the pets were brought back to reasonable levels. Pvp came extremely close to being completely destroyed forever.

So the two weeks that a pet chased a player in a video made people leave Fel. Sounds like they did not want to be there anyway.

I bet most were like you and never encountered a pet but they watched the video that was set up by someone using a friend to chase around with a pet and they freaked out because the easy pickings seemed to be over.

They sure could have stayed and made more gold than they had ever seen by getting pet scrolls. Sounds like players who were looking for a reason to leave because the sheep had teeth now.

 

[quovadis]

the pets nerf was needed.they only push it to far pet reduction 30 to 50 is to much.40 will be good

 

[Gorath]

Reading this has had the opposite effect on me then most, happy to see they nerfed taming. I may take a step back into the game now. Reactivate the old account.

 

[Max Blackoak]

all those above who complain about pets not being viable in PvP need to stop expecting their PvM pet builds to be any good in PvP. They're not! Just like a Sampire is crappy to pvp with. Those builds will loose against any PvP template just like the PvP templates won't be any good for any highend PvM.

Those who used to PvP on their tamer and find that now their old builds won't work anymore need to adapt. Just like casters and dexxers needed to adapt to nerfs in the past. You can do it, as could most of them.

If you want to PvP on your tamer then you HAVE to re-think your template and that of your pet to make it viable for PvP.

Pet is too slow? Use a pet with 190 dex. Still too slow? Use a pet that teleports (hint hint) or find a way to slow down your opponent (or combine both). Still no good? Use a mountable pet, stun your opponent, dismount and let the pet finish the job while dismounting your opponent for example.

I absolutely still see successful PvP tamer and pet builds but they are rare. You know why? Because it takes a very deep knowledge of the game mechanics and it is for the most part uncharted terrain where you can't just google for the best build and copy what others came up with. It takes a lot of thinking, testing, re-thinking until you get it right, but once you do you have a viable PvP tamer (some of them are even decent at PvM too!)

Everything, your template, your pet, the pet's template, your suit, everything has to be considered and tailored to viability in PvP if you want to PvP on a tamer. Just like all PvP dexxers and casters.

 

[Max Blackoak]

There is no way any pet, even before the ninja nerfs, with pets doing 100% damage, could stop a GOOD PVPer. The PVPer would go not after the pet but after the tamer, in no time at all, and he could go through 5 tamers in a row with ease! And that is before the nerf, with 100% damaging pets, not 25% damaging.. But that would require that the PVPer would have REAL skill doing so. What the ninja nerf stick that hit the PVP pets did is : It made it easier for POOR PVPers, or the ones that have no real PVP playing skills to "PVP" or more frequently PK.

what makes you say that? Are you speaking from your own PvP experience? Or are these just assumptions? Did you PvP on a tamer before the nerf was implemented? Did you PvP against a tamer with a specific absolutely overpowered pet build before the nerf hit (the phoenix for example)? Did you PvP on a tamer after the nerf? If so what pet and template did you use?

Before the nerf certain pets were impossible to dodge. You couldn't outrun them, they would cast spells on the run interrupting you, even when you had ninjitsu and smokebombs they would keep casting on you while you were invisible (just like summoned pixies still do) and they would do massive damage while doing all that. You couldn't go after the tamer because the pet killed you before you did any relevant damage. Some very special pet builds had the ability to instantly kill you when their specials and spells lined up perfectly. They didn't always but they did often enough. Instakills should never be allowed in balanced PvP (which is why the Glenda was nerfed btw.).
After the initial pet speed nerf they were still horribly overpowered, casting spells on you while off screen, teleporting right next to you from over a screen away etc. etc. so tey got nerfed again.

Thats my 10 cents, and I think that since obtaining PS became so important for tamers, and the only way to get them is to go to the PVP land, why nuke their weapons-pets?
Let me know how that makes sense for you, and also let me know the ethical reasoning for not PVP but PK that is 1000% a different thing. Looks like we have a conflict of interest here, and that PVP-Pkers have the upper hand again, i.e. players that have no honor or scrupples and would kill players that DO NOT want to PVP.

Did you ever get raided by people of PvM templates? Guess what, they usually bring in a sampire or some other PvM character to finish the spawn/boss while the PvP chars are guarding him. PvP chars will always have the upper hand fighting against PvM chars and that's totally ok eversince UO went down a path where PvP and PvM became two completely different systems. Now if you went to do spawns with a group of PvPers protecting you, then you would have a way better chance to defend against the raiders.

Players that do not want to PvP do not have to PvP (at least on trammel shards). They can farm trammel without any risk whatsoever and buy powerscrolls with the gold they make. Yes it will take a while to get the millions to buy scrolls but you'll get there eventually. If you do however chose to go to felucca then please don't expect to be able to do everything solo there, especially not despise or similarly popular areas. If you wanna go there you better bring an army to defend you.


The one thing I agree with you is that pardons should have never made it into the game.

I won't say much about the rest of your post because the points you make are getting a little ridiculous: permanent death for criminals and murderers? I don't think so... Even excluding them from UO for a month or more would go way too far.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

This was the main argument that was viable in the discussion of pvp tamers:
'People asked that they not cast from off screen, move at mounted speed, or do 50+ damage. Those all still sound pretty reasonable to me.' The only other thing was the tele dismount. Should mounts be able to do those? Yes, but simultaneously absolutely not.

Pets do need to be revisited and given some slight tweaks

 

[Cetric]

i wouldnt mind if their dmg was buffs up a bit, maybe even back to the 30%, if most of the abilities did not work in pvp like dismount and teleport


A lot of the problem is, a pvper on a pet can be overpowered, but then a pvmer thinks they should be able to all kill their pet on someone and it do work while they just stand there. hard to get a balance

 

[cobb]

all those above who complain about pets not being viable in PvP need to stop expecting their PvM pet builds to be any good in PvP. They're not! Just like a Sampire is crappy to pvp with. Those builds will loose against any PvP template just like the PvP templates won't be any good for any highend PvM.

Those who used to PvP on their tamer and find that now their old builds won't work anymore need to adapt. Just like casters and dexxers needed to adapt to nerfs in the past. You can do it, as could most of them.

If you want to PvP on your tamer then you HAVE to re-think your template and that of your pet to make it viable for PvP.

Pet is too slow? Use a pet with 190 dex. Still too slow? Use a pet that teleports (hint hint) or find a way to slow down your opponent (or combine both). Still no good? Use a mountable pet, stun your opponent, dismount and let the pet finish the job while dismounting your opponent for example.

I absolutely still see successful PvP tamer and pet builds but they are rare. You know why? Because it takes a very deep knowledge of the game mechanics and it is for the most part uncharted terrain where you can't just google for the best build and copy what others came up with. It takes a lot of thinking, testing, re-thinking until you get it right, but once you do you have a viable PvP tamer (some of them are even decent at PvM too!)

Everything, your template, your pet, the pet's template, your suit, everything has to be considered and tailored to viability in PvP if you want to PvP on a tamer. Just like all PvP dexxers and casters.

Exactly +1

Of course pvm tamer templates suck in pvp. It's like playing a deathstriker in pvm and expecting to be successful with it. That makes zero sense.

And pvp tamers are still quite playable. The difference now is that it takes actual player skill to play.

 

[Max Blackoak]

i wouldnt mind if their dmg was buffs up a bit, maybe even back to the 30%, if most of the abilities did not work in pvp like dismount and teleport

dismount and teleport are fine the way they are right now.

The pets will only dismount, when the owner is on foot as well - same rule as for all other ways to dismount (weaponskill, bolas), so that's fine.

Pets will still teleport right next to their target but they won't do it from off screen anymore, so that's fine as well.

Buffed up damage depends. It's hard to find the right number here because certain special moves, special abilities and spell combos on pets still hit very very hard in pvp. Buffing the damage on all pets (i.e. including these hard hitting ones) could once again get them up there, where they are able to instakill people. So any kind of buff to damage is something they need to really carefully look at and base on the hard hitting PvP pets, not the average Cu Sidhe with AI, spellweaving or chivalry for example. And when you take that approach I believe pet damage is fairly balanced now. Again, don't expect a PvM pet build to do any significant damage in PvP - they shouldn't!

 

[celticus]

The typical tamer toon is usually pvm, and most pets are not suitable for PvP anyway. Balancing can be pretty hard to keep everyone happy. There are fundamental issues tough with reds raiding tamers. One is the "criminality" concept, and the consequences to tit. There are games spinnoffs of UO that have addressed that: If you are a red you better be on the top of the class and NOT get killed.
If you do die as a red, in those uo spinn-offs, your slayer can remove your head from your corpse, and keep it, with dire consequences that can be permanent, and you have to pay multi-millions to get it back, or have stat/skill change or cannot play until you get the head back, etc. Being red does not come cheap, and this adds more risk to being red. As it is in UO, there are no real consequences, no real perm effects or risks.
PVP is great, perhaps one of the best parts of UO, attracting the most knowledgeable folks in the game. PVP is not the same as PK and being red. PK is the one that should be addressed not PVP with more consequences than are there now (Zero). PVP should be mostly consensual and for fun. Not to steal someone's hard earned efforts after hours of hard work, and that someone who does not want to PvP or participate in PVP. And as for the pet damage doing only 25% damage in PVP, once in place I doubt that it will ever change now..

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

Are you referring to Siege? Nothin you stated about PKs has an real relevance to what is being discussed

 

[celticus]

Are you referring to Siege? Nothin you stated about PKs has an real relevance to what is being discussed

My apologies did not mean to derail the thread..What I am referring to is not PVP but PK, a totally different item. And nothing has being done in the past about it but just allow it unchecked.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

mods can you clean up this thread so this discussion doesn't spiral into some other nonsense? @Captn Norrington

 

[Great DC]

. They're not! Just like a Sampire is crappy to pvp with. Those builds will loose against any PvP template just like the PvP templates won't be any good for any highend PvM.

.

My sampire has knight of justice from killing "so called pvpers" almost every day. The skill level of pvp has dropped off significantly ever since certain outside programs came around. All I see anymore is zergs of PKer's not PVP'ers.

As far as pets go they could easily be put back to 30% with no issue in pvp. I can see removing the teleport thing and capping speed of pets so they cant outrun you while your mounted that's about it.

Things that need fixed in pvp right now are corpseskin max effect should only work for pure necros not necro mages, splintering should not work for anyone cept for pure dexxers, also free cures from poisoning need to go away period. No dachi needs to be fixed where the dismount doesn't last forever until healed nonsense, I can see this lasting longer then a normal dismount(maybe 20 secs), if you cant kill them by then your not good enough. Also splintering should not proc with any special in the game. There is probably more things I cant think of right now.

 

[cobb]

Speaking of tamers and dismount, I think Riding Swipe needs to be looked at. While it is not limited to tamers, it it used mostly by them (bushido tamers). This one move basically makes a pure melee without ninjitsu or casting abiliy worthless in pvp. They cannot cast heals on their pet, so they cannot remount. They cannot use animal form to get away. One Riding Swipe and a pure melee is stuck on foot and is pretty much a guaranteed death. I believe the devs stated one of their goals is to increase diversity of templates in the game and this one move is getting in the way.

 

[Fridgster]

Speaking of tamers and dismount, I think Riding Swipe needs to be looked at. While it is not limited to tamers, it it used mostly by them (bushido tamers). This one move basically makes a pure melee without ninjitsu or casting abiliy worthless in pvp. They cannot cast heals on their pet, so they cannot remount. They cannot use animal form to get away. One Riding Swipe and a pure melee is stuck on foot and is pretty much a guaranteed death. I believe the devs stated one of their goals is to increase diversity of templates in the game and this one move is getting in the way.

Told you some would find something to nerf.

 

[celticus]

mods can you clean up this thread so this discussion doesn't spiral into some other nonsense? @Captn Norrington

Respectfuly, it looks like you are missing the boat in the above post, and I doubt if you PVP or even play UO at any intensity..
The whole idea behind the post was to GIVE SPAWNING TAMERS A FIGHTING CHANCE against raiders, and to ADJUST THE MEGA-NERF to pet damage a little more reasonably, and yes it pertains to PVP and PK in taming. Also a tamer that wants to participate in PVP, obviously will HAVE to reconsider his toon skills and train for it. TWEAK not NUKE pet damage, especially against reds..

 

[Smoot]

pets arent meant to do damage. that was the whole point of the pvp balance. you shouldnt be able to hit one button, say "all kill" and have a pet (220 skill points) affect a player any more than another player who only had 220 skill points.

its actually pretty good, tamers can use the special abilities of the pet, but must do the actual damage themselves. thats the whole point of pvp and i think for once the devs actually got this right.

 

[Captn Norrington]

mods can you clean up this thread so this discussion doesn't spiral into some other nonsense? @Captn Norrington

I just read the entire thread, and didn't see a single rule violation (which is actually really impressive for a pvp thread honestly) so a thread cleanup does not appear to be needed here at this time.

 

[Max Blackoak]

TWEAK not NUKE pet damage, especially against reds..

Reds are people too, you know. No need to make their lives unnecessarily harder. I get your hatred of murderers but please realize that they are a part of UO, just like tamers, crafters, PvPers etc. Playing a red already puts you at a huge disadvantage: can't use any of the virtues (selfres is extremely helpful on Siege, where you have no insurance) and on prodo you don't get to use the trade deal buffs just to name two examples.

 

[MalagAste]

Reds are people too, you know. No need to make their lives unnecessarily harder. I get your hatred of murderers but please realize that they are a part of UO, just like tamers, crafters, PvPers etc. Playing a red already puts you at a huge disadvantage: can't use any of the virtues (selfres is extremely helpful on Siege, where you have no insurance) and on prodo you don't get to use the trade deal buffs just to name two examples.

Then don't be a murderous scum???

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

@Captn Norrington I think you failed to understand my reasoning for wanting this thread to be cleaned up, and here we are derailed and talking about PKs.

 

[Pawain]

@Captn Norrington I think you failed to understand my reasoning for wanting this thread to be cleaned up, and here we are derailed and talking about PKs.

The reason pets are not in Fel is because the PKs complained and did not want any competition or changes to their playstyle.

You can not talk about tamers in PvP without bringing up the reason they have been removed from PvP.

They were there for about a week. Then 5 Fel players complained so they were nerfed to removal.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

The reason pets are not in Fel is because the PKs complained and did not want any competition or changes to their playstyle.

You can not talk about tamers in PvP without bringing up the reason they have been removed from PvP.

They were there for about a week. Then 5 Fel players complained so they were nerfed to removal.

Pretty sure PKs are pretty much nonexistent on prodo shards and majority of people are in VvV. So don't see the relevance in this discussion to the OP.

 

[Pawain]

Very few players on LS that play mostly in Trammel are in VvV (too many disadvantages to be in it at a spawn with non VvV players, and we have our armor already.) The spawners and raiders do not use pets. There are plenty of times I hear some lone spawner getting Pked in chat.

To stay on Topic. Why are there no pets in PvP:

Pets only do 30% damage to players.

The max damage to a player from a pet is capped at 30.

Pets do not follow you around in an non open area. I cant walk around Luna and not have the pet stick on something. Do the Humility spawn and see how well your pet can maneuver through the trees.

To have a tamed pet at 3 slots you need 108 taming and lore. You need 90 vet to res the pet. Minimum 306 points that are wasted when the pet is dead or stuck on a tree 3 screens back. (I can show you many pics of dragons humping things)

Many tamed pets loose half their stats when tamed. A Cu has over 1100 HP and over 1200 str when wild. Which makes tamed pets weaker than wild pets in many cases. We kill wild beasts all day. Why would a pet with less stats be harder to kill?

Even good pets can be killed very easily by a player.

In conclusion:

To get a tamer back in Fel and be able to survive a template that is made to kill them:

The over 300 skill points used to have the pet must allow ALL KILL to actually do something for those points. Whether it is damage, curse, disarm, or dismount.

The pet need to do more damage.

The pet needs to be able to navigate thru obstacles and keep up with the tamer or prey.

Unless you are a Grarg. A tamer is at run speed while using a pet. Everyone complains that dismount is death! Non garg tamers are dismounted.

And the post above that came in while writing proves my point. THEY DO NOT WANT PETS IN PvP!!!!