Grind and Developer Responsibility

[spamspamspamspam]

Okay, I'm sure that I'm pissy because I just went through 27 MIBs and still didn't get the whatever it is (don't really know since I didn't get one yet), but I've been thinking about this ever since they came out with the Roof, and the Bar mini-game, if you will. Nobody likes the grind, but when does, "This sucks" become, "Hey, I pay for this game, and spending three hours fishing MIBs to continue the quest chain is not fun"? Isn't there a responsibility to us, the consumer, to make the game fun?

Now I'm not one that generally likes to bash everything that the developers do, but c'mon, are you telling me that the new arc would really be negatively impacted by making it cumulative to fish-up the required item (or whatever) like Doom artifact distribution? Maybe put a cap of say 12 or 15 failures before you're assured a success? Would that really be awful? Instead, I'm asking my guildies in Vent, "So how do I know if I got it"? Is that really what the developers need to do?

Like I said before, I don't want to bash the developers, and I really believe that the game started going downhill when they started giving the players almost everything that they asked for, but don't the developers owe us fun?

And before anyone says "No one is forcing you to play" or "No one is forcing you to play the arc", think about if that's what you would say to one of your customers if you owned / ran a business.

 

[CovenantX]

I had to fish up 55 chests before I finally got one, but then I got a 2nd one 7 chests later... 2 guildies of mine (my guild only has 3 active players counting myself btw...) got it on their 2nd SoS/chest each... lol.

I've never believed the point system in doom worked properly, because I've gotten 2 drops in one run, and also I have gone 8-10 full runs of the gauntlet without a single drop...
They say, if you stick with it you'll eventually get what you're after... so, if it's a point system or pure RNG it doesn't matter because the same could be said about both.

 

[Larisa]

Think of it this way...as someone said to me a few days ago...

Kalen's love was washed away into the sea...the sea is a BIG place....it's gonna take you awhile to find it....you know??

It took me around 35-40 and almost 100k gold to buy dredging hooks to get more MIB's lol

Yeah it takes a bit of luck too..some are luckier then others....but don't despair you WILL find it....I was just about to give up this morning....20 more dredging hooks, 3 MIB's....got on my fisher...fished up the first 2....got nothing and I was about to just throw my mouse out the window.....decided to do the last one and lo and behold there it was....

So just relax.....take your time...remember we have a whole month still....no hurry!

 

[skett]

I really feel bad for the people that only have a few sos

I was lucky an idocer I knew years ago gave me over 300 and I had collected another 150

I have now done over a hundred and only 2 staffs

As I'm trying this I'm out doing anther 20

WAY off on this part of the quest the devs need to fix this asap !

 

[Pawain]

I had to fish up 55 chests before I finally got one, but then I got a 2nd one 7 chests later... 2 guildies of mine (my guild only has 3 active players counting myself btw...) got it on their 2nd SoS/chest each... lol.

I've never believed the point system in doom worked properly, because I've gotten 2 drops in one run, and also I have gone 8-10 full runs of the gauntlet without a single drop...
They say, if you stick with it you'll eventually get what you're after... so, if it's a point system or pure RNG it doesn't matter because the same could be said about both.

Whats up with that. Just as I said its going to take a while... The person fishing got it on the second one also. Then we kept going for 4 hours and ran out of SOS and got no more.

 

[Rusker Sulle]

...So just relax.....take your time...remember we have a whole month still....no hurry!

​

 

[GarthGrey]

I can only hope that all new items/skills whatever, will be attainable by everyone somehow, after this arc is over. We don't all have the luxury of being stay at home moms...sorry, the truth hurts for a reason.

 

[Prince Erik]

Think of it this way...as someone said to me a few days ago...

Kalen's love was washed away into the sea...the sea is a BIG place....it's gonna take you awhile to find it....you know??

It took me around 35-40 and almost 100k gold to buy dredging hooks to get more MIB's lol

Yeah it takes a bit of luck too..some are luckier then others....but don't despair you WILL find it....I was just about to give up this morning....20 more dredging hooks, 3 MIB's....got on my fisher...fished up the first 2....got nothing and I was about to just throw my mouse out the window.....decided to do the last one and lo and behold there it was....

So just relax.....take your time...remember we have a whole month still....no hurry!

Is this confirmed that we have a month to finish this fishing quest? Several guildmates of mine are still trying to get their final candles from stage two and only have 1 or 2 mibs currently. We'd pitch in to help but they kind of wanted to do this themselves.

 

[Tyrath]

Grinding might be fun for folks that can play 23/7 not so much fun for those of us that have to work to pay the bills and consider 1-4 hours a lot of game time in a day.

 

[Tina Small]

Part IV begins on Thursday, September 7th. Will the drop rate for Part III items be decreased at that point?

 

[Larisa]

Is this confirmed that we have a month to finish this fishing quest? Several guildmates of mine are still trying to get their final candles from stage two and only have 1 or 2 mibs currently. We'd pitch in to help but they kind of wanted to do this themselves.

Parts 1-4 will remain active UNTIL part 5....we have 26 days left....hopefully that's enough time

 

[Prince Erik]

Ooooh, that should be enough time providing stage 4 isn't a 20 day project lol!! Thanks!

 

[arkiu]

Agree! I kind of gave up after part 1 when realizing the time commitment. Not to sound snotty but I would have been able to do this when i was a kid (first started UO when i was 13). 17 years later real life settled and frankly there are more enjoyable things to do than mindlessly click for hours on end when time feels so precious. As soon as this arc started it felt like a chore so i said screw it.

Being constrained to this arc window (28 more days?) for such a grind makes me wonder what the devs smoke.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I get it... there are some true grinds in the arc... yeah, they can be frustrating at times..

but....


Folks have been griping about how different skills could use some "love" to be a little viable again. Perhaps the Devs did some of the things during this arc to do that very thing. Fishers, Tinkers and some T-hunters are actually making a profit for a change instead of just making a little coin here and there. If you are one who does not want the grind.. just focus on normal content, make your gold the way you do.. and purchase the needed items off vendors of people who do not mind the grind in order to make their gold and have your fun in other ways...

This ain't Pokemon.. ya ain't gotta catch all the skills.. and ya ain't gotta catch all the drops... that is where "community" still comes into play. Yes, there are those who will assist for free instead of worrying about profit. Heck, I have personally given away (and know of a few others who have) quite a few items from the ambushes to folks who needed one more "X" to complete the set.

 

[Smoot]

Apparently some people think its fun because these items do exist and are for sale.

I personally do not think in-game fishing is fun, but do think its fun to do the quest and collect the items. So bought the staff for 50m (which is well worth it to save hours of fishing)

the quest was made to use many skills, and many styles of gameplay. i dont think anyone enjoys them all, but theres something for everyone and the items are tradeable so if you dont like one part of it you can just buy that item, or trade for other items from an aspect of the quest that you do in fact enjoy.

theres plenty of buying / selling / trading going on so its not like you absolutely have to do parts of the quest that arent fun for you.

 

[Giggles]

I don't like to rant much either, but I do miss the global events that require you to log in, grab a weapon or pet, and dive right into the chaos. I personally haven't done any part of this new chain. However, I am one of the "special cases" that only gets maybe 2 hours of game time a week. Two hours isn't even enough time to decipher the lore, read through forums to figure out what to do, and then even begin to start any art of this. Everything is lore and quests and grinds these days. I know many people enjoy it, and of course you can't make everyone happy. But yeah, people like me are kinda left in the dust with this new mentality of game content. Instant fun action with a small chance at a reward doesn't seem to apply through this event arc.

 

[Lady Storm]

Well..................................
before this event arc went in ...
I went shopping...
How was I to know they were gunna be needed
I bought a ton of sos's and stuffed a few Davie's lockers
I think I bought all on many shards
they sit on Origin
Sorry...........

 

[Yadd of Legends]

the quest was made to use many skills, and many styles of gameplay. i dont think anyone enjoys them all, but theres something for everyone and the items are tradeable so if you dont like one part of it you can just buy that item, or trade for other items from an aspect of the quest that you do in fact enjoy.

This - it was deliberately designed to make it hard for one person to do it all

 

[Dot_Warner]

The MiB grind is really inexcusable after the absolute MISERY that was part I. (Cities will be lucky if anyone runs trade orders again after the 28th. I have heard a quite a few say that they are done with them for good )

Part II was perfect. Minor, manageable grind for a quickly known, guaranteed payout.

Part III's Kalen's Lament is a long string of profanity that would make my tillerman cover his rum-soaked ears in modesty. The staff drop should have been on an ever-increasing likelihood of appearance with each subsequent MiB, capped at 10. Not the 56+ MiBs later stack of festering chocolate covered pancakes that it is.

 

[Uriah Heep]

If you are looking for a game that is not a clickfest, that is not overly grindy, and that has decent limits on effort and time investment vs reward distribution--then todays Ultima Online is not for you.

Sad.

The concept and design of this arc is awesome, someone put a lot of thought into this.
Implementation sux--the distribution rates suck--drops on phase one bite, people still don't have stoles but are drowning in amulets and phylacteries.
SoS fishing while a good idea, should have been known up front if you had to ahve fishing or not--end the confustion and the idea that some cant and some can.
Success rates on crafting the quicksilver are a little off...no idea why anyone thought that would be the thing to do.

Like I said, and A+ for concept and creativity
F for making it grindy and frustrating

 

[Tina Small]

If you are looking for a game that is not a clickfest, that is not overly grindy, and that has decent limits on effort and time investment vs reward distribution--then todays Ultima Online is not for you.

Sad.

The concept and design of this arc is awesome, someone put a lot of thought into this.
Implementation sux--the distribution rates suck--drops on phase one bite, people still don't have stoles but are drowning in amulets and phylacteries.
SoS fishing while a good idea, should have been known up front if you had to ahve fishing or not--end the confustion and the idea that some cant and some can.
Success rates on crafting the quicksilver are a little off...no idea why anyone thought that would be the thing to do.

Like I said, and A+ for concept and creativity
F for making it grindy and frustrating

Agreed 100%.

I have enjoyed many aspects of this event, especially the fact that it really helps to be part of a guild or group of people willing to help each other out. However, I have a real fear (as do others) that somehow we will end up putting a lot of time into putting one or two or three of our characters through all this, only to have the final phase start and find out that we picked the wrong type(s) of characters. How many people did this with their tamers and what will they think if the design of the final phase completely disfavors tamers and favors a different type of character? Who will be happy to find out that a month's worth of effort just went down the drain?

 

[Prince Erik]

I was worried a bit about that too - but I think the devs thought of this as anyone can use the benefit of an obelisk. I'm really hoping that if/when the Titan's appear there will be shards of people with Titan Slayers ready to meet then, whether they did the quests or not.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I don't like to rant much either, but I do miss the global events that require you to log in, grab a weapon or pet, and dive right into the chaos.

I would imagine that part is right around the corner. The first three parts have been about:

Part 1 - letting us know something is not right (amubshers) and that the ambushers are all into something strange (the strange drops)
Part 2 - Further revealing of a darker force at the helm of the foot soldiers (ambushers) we have been battling
Part 3 - Getting the correct slayer property in our hands to effectively battle the coming onslaught

With Part 4 hitting this week (the 7th) and staying until the 28th I would be willing to bet the invasion forces hit and we can actually begin the true fight. So the "log in and fight" imo is dang near here.

and...

The Devs have done a good thing for those who do not like the "click fest" (in the persons opinion) they have put into the arc so far. The Obelisks can be set to Public and anyone can use them in order to have the "Pagan Titan Slayer" property for 24 hours just as those who have done the arc gets. So even by not doing the first parts of the Arc they can/will still get the full benefit of those who have done the arc.

imho.. which means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things lol... they have done a great job in keeping those of us who like the "click fest", for those of us who love the fiction, those of us who generally have a LOT of time to devote to UO.. while at the same time taking care of those who have limited time, hate the clickfest and just wanna "show up and kill".

Also, they have implemented things in this arc that I feel were done deliberately and by design to increase community interaction... which definitely needed some "love" as well...

In closing (lol hey didn't realize this was gonna be a book ) the only ones who really suffer the most.. is those "pixel addicts" who have to have one or two or five of everything.. and that ain't the Devs fault.. that is our own fault for being a little off inna head.. and yup, I am in that crowd

 

[MalagAste]

I would imagine that part is right around the corner. The first three parts have been about:

Part 1 - letting us know something is not right (amubshers) and that the ambushers are all into something strange (the strange drops)
Part 2 - Further revealing of a darker force at the helm of the foot soldiers (ambushers) we have been battling
Part 3 - Getting the correct slayer property in our hands to effectively battle the coming onslaught

With Part 4 hitting this week (the 7th) and staying until the 28th I would be willing to bet the invasion forces hit and we can actually begin the true fight. So the "log in and fight" imo is dang near here.

and...

The Devs have done a good thing for those who do not like the "click fest" (in the persons opinion) they have put into the arc so far. The Obelisks can be set to Public and anyone can use them in order to have the "Pagan Titan Slayer" property for 24 hours just as those who have done the arc gets. So even by not doing the first parts of the Arc they can/will still get the full benefit of those who have done the arc.

imho.. which means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things lol... they have done a great job in keeping those of us who like the "click fest", for those of us who love the fiction, those of us who generally have a LOT of time to devote to UO.. while at the same time taking care of those who have limited time, hate the clickfest and just wanna "show up and kill".

Also, they have implemented things in this arc that I feel were done deliberately and by design to increase community interaction... which definitely needed some "love" as well...

In closing (lol hey didn't realize this was gonna be a book ) the only ones who really suffer the most.. is those "pixel addicts" who have to have one or two or five of everything.. and that ain't the Devs fault.. that is our own fault for being a little off inna head.. and yup, I am in that crowd

But they of all people know that most of us die hards are not only UO Horders (TLC could do an entire season on just UO players alone)... but they know we like collecting.... and while they claim they don't want to add to that they KNOW full well many of us will are CDO and will obsess about getting every last drop in triplicate no less... because that's how we roll.

 

[Lady Storm]

I will say even in here you all have banded together and helped the other with getting the parts and how to fight the various parts.
This is what we did in the first year...
Those of you who remember the fight for Trinsic .... Every guild and player fought to keep our city's free.
That set of battles every player got in the act, we didn't have chat.
But we knew where we were needed.

While I do like the Chat...
I have found it is a major reason outside the intro of Luna that has broken up that gathering of players into groups to go off fighting.
You have to admit the finding of Malas and the discovery of the centering of Luna for players did a major blow to the city gatherings.
Most times the only time I see any in Brit is when a few players need the circle boost.
Some used skara, while others were brit or moonglow... but you knew if you needed help one of those city's had players there.

You complain if they try to bring some small part of that back in a way ... without shutting off chat... and closing down Malas...?
idk
sit back for a minute and think
and I don't mean gloss over your tiny bent nose that they are picking on you feelings ether.
and do put the full 2 cents in the effort
How would you do it?
how do you bring back the need to gather ?
You ask for it yet you fight it
you blame the dev but ask just the same....
I am sorry this line is not up to your standards
it was a valiant attempt to do as many asked.
the majority of the complaint on past quests was it went too fast and was way too easy...
all I can say is: carefull what you wish for you just might get it

 

[Uvtha]

Okay, I'm sure that I'm pissy because I just went through 27 MIBs and still didn't get the whatever it is (don't really know since I didn't get one yet), but I've been thinking about this ever since they came out with the Roof, and the Bar mini-game, if you will. Nobody likes the grind, but when does, "This sucks" become, "Hey, I pay for this game, and spending three hours fishing MIBs to continue the quest chain is not fun"? Isn't there a responsibility to us, the consumer, to make the game fun?

Now I'm not one that generally likes to bash everything that the developers do, but c'mon, are you telling me that the new arc would really be negatively impacted by making it cumulative to fish-up the required item (or whatever) like Doom artifact distribution? Maybe put a cap of say 12 or 15 failures before you're assured a success? Would that really be awful? Instead, I'm asking my guildies in Vent, "So how do I know if I got it"? Is that really what the developers need to do?

Like I said before, I don't want to bash the developers, and I really believe that the game started going downhill when they started giving the players almost everything that they asked for, but don't the developers owe us fun?

And before anyone says "No one is forcing you to play" or "No one is forcing you to play the arc", think about if that's what you would say to one of your customers if you owned / ran a business.

Grinds are more or less a necessity to make content last... but they don't implement them in the right way. If there's gonna be a big long grind it should be one of incremental success, not you get it or you don't rng. Especially with limited events like this one. Honestly if they had to involve Mibs they needed to make them much more accessible like they did with the treasure maps. As is if you didn't have 100 in a box someplace for some weird reason you're going to have to either just forget it, or you're going to have to spend a lot of time grinding out mibs... just so you can roll the RNG x number of times. That's not fun.

Dozens of mibs to get something you need to complete a quest is just... wrong. Like I said in another post, I'm not even going to bother with this quest because I know I won't be able to complete it.

 

[Uvtha]

Folks have been griping about how different skills could use some "love" to be a little viable again.

I think they should use skills in quests, but... I just don't know that the event for the game's biggest milestone is the right place to start putting these kind of hurdles in. That's just me.

 

[Tina Small]

What I don't understand and what really frustrates me is how the dev team apparently drastically reduced the drop rate of the "curious" items from the trade order ambushes after Part II started and how they decreased the drop rate for the Part II maps once Part III started.

People who get a late start, for whatever reason, really have it rough when things like this happen. They read that the first parts of the arc will be active until the end of September, but it really isn't true. The only people who benefit from the decrease in the drop rate are people who plan to sell the drop items later. So basically the dev team ends up favoring the item sellers over regular players who have limited time to play or get a late start because they're on vacation, tied up with work, etc. It makes me question which players have more value to the dev team and I really don't like the conclusion I come to when this sort of stuff happens over and over again.

 

[Uvtha]

What I don't understand and what really frustrates me is how the dev team apparently drastically reduced the drop rate of the "curious" items from the trade order ambushes after Part II started and how they decreased the drop rate for the Part II maps once Part III started.

People who get a late start, for whatever reason, really have it rough when things like this happen. They read that the first parts of the arc will be active until the end of September, but it really isn't true. The only people who benefit from the decrease in the drop rate are people who plan to sell the drop items later. So basically the dev team ends up favoring the item sellers over regular players who have limited time to play or get a late start because they're on vacation, tied up with work, etc. It makes me question which players have more value to the dev team and I really don't like the conclusion I come to when this sort of stuff happens over and over again.

Yeah that's real dumb. Making stuff rarer after what, a week? It's just silly.

 

[skett]

The only part of the 3rd part I don't like is the main boss at daemon temple not sure how lower level players can solo it

 

[Lord Arm]

at first I was totally frustrated not knowing what to do and/where to go but once I found out , np. I do feel sorry for peeps that may not have the skills yet but maybe a friend can get for u. i don't like failing when make the sledge hammer and losing alot of the ingredient but real easy to get. too bad old maps don't work but they are easy to get in destard. about the sos, if u don't have any, buy some anchors in trinsic and throw them in and kill spawn. one thing I noticed but not sure if true, I don't seem to be able to get the staff in certain areas, I got most of mine from the ones closer to vesper. I maybe wrong. the phase 3 was not made where u can get huge numbers of the items but there is enough time to do one and get the altar. u can set the altar to anyone so people can get the buff too. ty devs, so far lol

 

[skett]

I was very lucky I had a little over 500 and I enjoy fishing the sos up been wanting to do this for a long time

For others that hate fishing and have no sos I really feel for them they should have made the treasure chest each drop a mib

 

[Pawain]

The only part of the 3rd part I don't like is the main boss at daemon temple not sure how lower level players can solo it

They say you can do it as a group unpartied and each gets the item.

 

[skett]

Do they have to have the quest

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Do they have to have the quest

Did it with my wife a while ago.. errrr the quest.. get your mind outta the gutter .. she was on the total quest chain but had not stood on the pentagram to get the "focus". She helped kill the Demon and did get the drop just as I did.

 

[Luc of Legends]

I wish everyone luck in this event arc. I have logged in for 2 hrs in 3 weeks. I played ambushers and realize I just don't have time. I take breaks, read stratics and such. But not time to grind. If could figure a way to do grind while doing homework, legally.

I just hope that I have enough gold or good friends to get one item I want. The portal to ish, at least think that from this event arc.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I wish everyone luck in this event arc. I have logged in for 2 hrs in 3 weeks. I played ambushers and realize I just don't have time. I take breaks, read stratics and such. But not time to grind. If could figure a way to do grind while doing home, legally.

I just hope that I have enough gold or good friends to get one item I want. The portal to ish, at least think that from this event arc.

The portal in Ilsh is a different event. I will be in October as part of the Halloween content. During the month of October you will be able to kill mobs in Sorcerers Dungeon and get things to turn in to the guy outside the dungeon to get the portal. When I helped test it on Test Center it was not as grindy as the first part of the current arc.

Also..

The current arc will most likely be "show up and kill things" starting on the 7th. So maybe you will have time for that end of it.. the main drop for this first part (the Obelisk) is something anyone can use to get the Slayer property needed to kill what is invading the 7th. That part of the arc will last from the 7th to the 28th.

 

[Drakelord]

over 50 SOS and my 4th staff,



And it was in the strongbox, sweet my first strong box!

 

[Luc of Legends]

The portal in Ilsh is a different event. I will be in October as part of the Halloween content. During the month of October you will be able to kill mobs in Sorcerers Dungeon and get things to turn in to the guy outside the dungeon to get the portal. When I helped test it on Test Center it was not as grindy as the first part of the current arc.

Also..

The current arc will most likely be "show up and kill things" starting on the 7th. So maybe you will have time for that end of it.. the main drop for this first part (the Obelisk) is something anyone can use to get the Slayer property needed to kill what is invading the 7th. That part of the arc will last from the 7th to the 28th.

Ok, I read that but with all I have reading. It all gets jumbled. Maybe, I will have time.

 

[Tina Small]

the main drop for this first part (the Obelisk) is something anyone can use to get the Slayer property needed to kill what is invading the 7th. That part of the arc will last from the 7th to the 28th.

Do you know if there is a limit on how many characters can use an obelisk in one day to apply the slayer property?

 

[Uriah Heep]

Somewhere I read 20

 

[Tina Small]

Somewhere I read 20

Yeah, that's what I read too. Was going to copy obelisk parts to Test Center and check it out but it seems character copy is disabled.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I read it as well but do I was unsure if the person was just using an arbitrary number or not. I only have 19 characters on Atlantic and can only bring (I think) 17 to Tram to test so sadly I can't test it.

 

[Tina Small]

I read it as well but do I was unsure if the person was just using an arbitrary number or not. I only have 19 characters on Atlantic and can only bring (I think) 17 to Tram to test so sadly I can't test it.

Well, I just dragged a bunch of crummy chars to my house on Sonoma and tested it with anything they had....chiv books, nearly empty spell books, daggers. All told, I had 23 characters use the obelisk this morning and never got a message saying it was unable to be used further today.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Well, I just dragged a bunch of crummy chars to my house on Sonoma and tested it with anything they had....chiv books, nearly empty spell books, daggers. All told, I had 23 characters use the obelisk this morning and never got a message saying it was unable to be used further today.

That is great news! I was hoping the person was throwing out an arbitrary number. Thanks for the leg (well finger and wrist lol) work on that

 

[BrianFreud]

I've done 120 SOSes so far, with 4 staffs. They seem to be "bursty" - 50 without, then 2 almost right after each other. Another 30, then 2 almost right after each other. Working on the next batch now

 

[Tina Small]

Threw a few more characters at the obelisk to get the uses for the day up to 27. Still no problems using it. Asked guildmates to also try to use it today if they have a chance.

 

[Jolt]

I don't like to rant much either, but I do miss the global events that require you to log in, grab a weapon or pet, and dive right into the chaos. I personally haven't done any part of this new chain. However, I am one of the "special cases" that only gets maybe 2 hours of game time a week. Two hours isn't even enough time to decipher the lore, read through forums to figure out what to do, and then even begin to start any art of this. Everything is lore and quests and grinds these days. I know many people enjoy it, and of course you can't make everyone happy. But yeah, people like me are kinda left in the dust with this new mentality of game content. Instant fun action with a small chance at a reward doesn't seem to apply through this event arc.

This is me too.

Obviously it's nice to have an event and mark the occasion, but, as someone who have gamed for over 25 years on mainly RPGs and MMOs: I don't understand the event.

I don't understand this event at all. I don't understand what I'm meant to be doing or why I should be doing it.

 

[BrianFreud]

I've done 120 SOSes so far, with 4 staffs. They seem to be "bursty" - 50 without, then 2 almost right after each other. Another 30, then 2 almost right after each other. Working on the next batch now

Just got #5... and I can now confirm, too, that they also can drop from ancient SOSes

 

[skett]

Your doing better than I did over 180 only got 5 staff
Not complaining though I like fishing