• Hail Guest!
    We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
  • Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
  • Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
  • Hail Guest!
    Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!

Skills, gains,aargh

Flagg

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Training skills in UO is utterly awful and completely detached from anything I consider fun in video games.

The sandoxy feels and "gaining skill while venturing with your friends and exploring the world!" and all that pretty picture back-of-the-box Disney stuff is mostly gone; world is old and empty. Most people online are mostly done with training by now. This results in the guy who still needs to grind always feeling like he is the odd one out. He feels like the only one in the world with unfinished character. Regardless of where you train or build your char, those " hey, me too!" conversations and meetups and temporarily alliances with other players in similar situation are not happening anymore. You are the only kid in the classroom. Somehow, someway the entire world has moved past the curves the skill grinder still has to deal with. As a result, building skills is incredibly frustrating lonely walk through the desert. < - - I realize much in this isn't absolute truth or such..But I'd claim most in this is the most likely impression among people besides just me.


Me, I'm getting there. Well, one of my characters is. Magery and Focus are done, I have 119 SW, 115 Eval and 110 Mysticism now. Just yesterday, we did something like 45 minutes of hunting with two of my friends. Result? Not a single gain in any of the skills listed.
Towards the higher 110s', Satyr ******** and GGS feel like the only viable way to grind skills. Neither of these feels like a particularly healthy way to play. However, no other method to gain skills past 110 or so feels viable. As a result, I of course get to spend plenty of hot summer nights with a Satyr. It is the best way to grins skills. It is also an awful and destructive way to play; it always makes you wonder why bother. It is simply so far removed from anything and everything video games should be.

SoAs and SoTs are great and present a solution to this. It's just that they are distributed very..sparingly. So much so that they get hoarded; availability is at least as big an issue as the price tag. Speaking of price tag, it is questionable if the guy training is willing or able to spend tens of millions for these short cuts. Cost and availability of these scrolls become less of an issue when one is done grinding. ONLY THEN one typically starts having a decent supply of em. Heh.

None in the above presents a difficult issue to either solve or alleviate. Stuff similar to Fire paintings would do wonders. At it's current rate (0.1 skill in random skill every 2 weeks or something?) the feature is somewhere between a gimmick and an insult. Making mechanic like Fire paintings available for everybody and literally 100 times more powerful(=10 skillpoints every 2 weeks) would be more like it. Even more drastic measures would be just as welcome; Broadsword could flatly increase the rate of skill gains of every single skill a great deal. Or give players ye olde powerhour back. Maybe through some clicky one can activate once per day.

Finally,this particular rant was brought by my frustrations when training few casting- based skills and Eval. - These things are relatively close to the easy end of the spectrum. Don't even get me started on taming..or fishing..or..


My most severe gripes in this are not even tied to the time consumed or effort and gold and gimmicks required. It's more how - all - of the " smart" or " efficient" ways to gain skills at higher levels are toxic to the experience of playing the game.

- -
To end on a very high note!!
Just as I was done writing this, a Guildie hooked me up with over 10 skillpoints worth of mysticism! It speaks much of the community, thank you so very much:)
It also speaks much of SoTs! Those three clicks saved dozens of hours of 'quality time' with Satyr..or months/years of normal gameplay. I wish these were made bit more readily available.
 
Last edited:

Jovi

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I think changes are being decided over the years based on the inputs of a few "elites"... some times, before I last quitted the game in 2012(?), I don't even understand some of the things they mentioned in the Publishes... lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
5
You are not alone @Flagg my t-hunter is not finished and I have two other characters that need huge amounts of work! But yes I agree sometimes it seems like a never-ending journey and can get tedious and lonely, especially when you have limited play-time.
Of course some skills take a lot longer than others, I think maybe some thought needs to be given to making all skills raise in a more uniform way, bard and tamer can be a pain. :(
When people have to resort to spending hours with a satyr or standing in their house casting for hours (while at the keyboard obviously!) you can almost see why most of the new people who don't know better, are afk macroing.
 

Flagg

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You are not alone @Flagg my t-hunter is not finished and I have two other characters that need huge amounts of work! But yes I agree sometimes it seems like a never-ending journey and can get tedious and lonely, especially when you have limited play-time.
Of course some skills take a lot longer than others, I think maybe some thought needs to be given to making all skills raise in a more uniform way, bard and tamer can be a pain. :(
When people have to resort to spending hours with a satyr or standing in their house casting for hours (while at the keyboard obviously!) you can almost see why most of the new people who don't know better, are afk macroing.

I guess much about it is in perception and in between-the-ears - stuff. Training skills or gaining naturally as you play didn't seem bad or insufferable way back when it felt like huge part of player base was there with you. Shared journey. You knew people around you had similar goals, needs and plans. Nowadays? Not so much. When grinding, I've often resorted to cheesiest and most efficient way possible; Satyr flirting in Ilsh and Despise. One would think few hotspots are very popular among people training. Not once have I seen anyone else there. Neither in Despise nor in Ilsh. Some convos like "Oh cool me too! " - stuff or even some childish "I WAS HERE FIRST !" fight would be welcome now and then. Anything to remind me it isn't the worst single player game in the world. But nop. Nothing, ever. It leaves the person training skills with misconception he is the only one in the world at it. This is bad.
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
5
I always felt gaining skills on a warrior was so much faster than anything else, probably because you just naturally gain as you whack things, you don't need to give it much thought, if only it went like that for all classes/templates...
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Training skills in UO is utterly awful and completely detached from anything I consider fun in video games.

The sandoxy feels and "gaining skill while venturing with your friends and exploring the world!" and all that pretty picture back-of-the-box Disney stuff is mostly gone; world is old and empty. Most people online are mostly done with training by now. This results in the guy who still needs to grind always feeling like the odd one out. He feels like the only one in the world with unfinished character. Regardless of where you train or build your char, those " hey, me too!" conversations and meetups with another player in similar position are done happening. You are the only kid in the classroom. Somehow, someway entire world has moved past the curves the grinder still has to deal with. He is the only one As a result, building skills is incredibly frustrating lonely walk through a desert. < - - I realize much in this isn't absolute truth or such..But I'd claim most in this is the most likely impression.


I'm getting there. Well, one of my characters is. Magery and focus done, I have 119 SW, 115 Eval and 110 Mysticism now. Something like 45 minutes of hunting with two of my friends yesterday. Result? Not a single gain in any of the skills listed.
Towards the higher 110s. Satyr ******** and GGS feel only viable ways to grind skills. Neither of these feels a particularly healthy way to play. Towards the higher 110's, nothing else feels viable so of course I get to spend plenty of hot summer nights with a Satyr. It is an awful and destructive way to play; it always makes you wonder why bother. Why even play and pay. It is simply so far removed from anything and everything video game should be.

SoAs and SoTs are great and present a solution to this. It's just that they are distributed very..sparingly. So much so that they get hoarded; availability is ¨at least as big an issue as the price tag. Speaking of price tag, it is questionable if the guy training is willing or able to spend tens of millions for relatively modest short cuts. Cost and availability of these scrolls become less of an issue when one is done grinding. ONLY THEN one typically starts having a decent supply of em. Heh.

None in the above presents a difficult issue to either solve or alleviate; stuff like Fire paintings would do wonders. At it's current rate (0.1 skill in random skill every 2 weeks or something?) the feature is somewhere between a gimmick and an insult. Making it available for everybody and literally 100 times more powerful(=10 skillpoints every 2 weeks) would be more like it. Even more drastic measures would be just as welcome; Broadsword could flatly increase the rate of skill gains of every single skill a great deal. Or give players ye olde powerhour back. Maybe through some clicky one can activate once per day.

Finally, I rant about few casting- skills and Eval...these things are relatively close to the easy end of the spectrum. Don't even get me even started on taming..or fishing..or..


My most severe gripes in this are not even tied to the time consumed or effort and gimmicks required. It's more how - all - of the " smart" or " efficient" ways to gain skills at higher levels are toxic to the experience of playing the game.

- -
To end on a very high note!!
Just as I was done writing this, a Guildie hooked me up with over 10 skillpoints worth of mysticism! It speaks much of the community, thank you so very much:)
It also speaks much of SoTs! Those three clicks saved dozens of hours of 'quality time' with Satyr..or months/years of normal gameplay. I wish these were made bit more readily available.
I mentioned in another thread that I wouldn't mind skill gain simply being removed, and just allow some method of just setting skills. Skill gain used to mean something, and GM characters were actually hard to accomplish and the rewards were tangible. Like if you were a GM smith or Tamer in pre AOS days it was an actual feat and you had some real power in the world because of your dedication.

Right now 720 characters are the basics. No one even considers leaving the house unless they are at least very very close to max skills. The most important thing really is that back in the day when the game was scaled more evenly in terms of player development you could actually get out there and do productive and meaningful things naturally skilling up in the process, but the game has been designed with pretty much only for, not just completed characters, but "end game" prepared characters.
Currently gear is the actual character progression, skills are nothing more than a template for what kind of items you are going to go out looking for. I think it's time they are viewed as such.

If not just allow people to skill up ala test center commands (or whatever) Blues and pinks should be more available and come in more powerful forms like 5 hour gain boosts, or +10 skill points.
 
Last edited:

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I trained 3 tamers to 120 long before SOTs and Primers on Prodo shards (Slow and took forever), Any school of magic takes forever to max through normal game play. Since Masteries and pinks I have trained another 5 tamers on prodo shards and what took weeks of taming is cut down to instant with obtaining six 5.0 pinks and a mythic or a day or so of bank sitting a taming mastery with a mythic. The disparity between gains through normal game play and the pay to win "Gimmicks" is very large. And as yo put it toxic.
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I guess much about it is in perception and in between-the-ears - stuff. Training skills or gaining naturally as you play didn't seem bad or insufferable way back when it felt like huge part of player base was there with you. Shared journey. You knew people around you had similar goals, needs and plans. Nowadays? Not so much. When grinding, I've often resorted to cheesiest and most efficient way possible; Satyr flirting in Ilsh and Despise. One would think few hotspots are very popular among people training. Not once have I seen anyone else there. Neither in Despise nor in Ilsh. Some convos like "Oh cool me too! " - stuff or even some childish "I WAS HERE FIRST !" fight would be welcome now and then. Anything to remind me it isn't the worst single player game in the world. But nop. Nothing, ever. It leaves the person training skills with misconception he is the only one in the world at it. This is bad.
Back in the day skill WERE your character. Now items are your character. That's why skilling seems so painful and non-substantive... because it is. UO is 100% "end game" now, everything is designed for completely skilled (and usually with at least mid level gear) characters. Instead of "I just GMed Magery! Woohoo!" its "I just got a (insert arti here) drop! Woohoo!" It's fine like that I think, but I also think it's time we make skill gaining a much more quick and simple process.
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I trained 3 tamers to 120 long before SOTs and Primers on Prodo shards (Slow and took forever), Any school of magic takes forever to max through normal game play. Since Masteries and pinks I have trained another 5 tamers on prodo shards and what took weeks of taming is cut down to instant with obtaining six 5.0 pinks and a mythic or a day or so of bank sitting a taming mastery with a mythic. The disparity between gains through normal game play and the pay to win "Gimmicks" is very large. And as yo put it toxic.
Yeah you really can't realistically "play" your way up any more. You have to relegate yourself to doing things and hunting monsters you really have little or no reason to spend your time on. Sadly aside from bosses and the few areas that offer you unique rewards (mini-champs, Blackthorn, etc) most game content is simply not worth bothering with.
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
5
Seems such a shame that to some extent we've lost what made UO unique in comparison with other games that were all about the end-game and not the journey! I used to enjoy raising my skills, but now everything feels like such a grind.
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Seems such a shame that to some extent we've lost what made UO unique in comparison with other games that were all about the end-game and not the journey! I used to enjoy raising my skills, but now everything feels like such a grind.
Oh, I dunno. I think it was inevitable. You can only enjoy a simple game like UO used to be (from a strictly game mechanics point of view) for so long before player are going to need more complexity to maintain interest.

Skills absolutly are not fun to raise, not only because maxing a skill is much more a prerequisite than an accomplishment, but because simply when you've played the game for a long time the skill gain process has completely lost it's novelty.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yeah the first time or three you max skills is pretty exciting and you feel like you accomplished something. After that not so much.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
Always found the fire painting to be an insult... rather like those one use dyes they tried to bribe us into not totally wanting to form a lynch mob for...

Feel it's like pouring salt on an open wound... rather like the 500 sovereigns instead of being given per account given per master account no one wanted to be forced to have in the first place...

Maybe that's just me... but that's how I feel...
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
5
It's even worse when more often than not you only get a 0.1 for some totally useless or no longer relevant skill, which seems to happen to me a lot, these skills should be removed from the lists for SoA's and SoT's.
A 0.1 for a skill that you are actually raising is better than nothing but I get Camping and Taste ID way too often...
 

Packrat22

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Would have been nice if they made SoA's and SoT's scrolls, so you choose the skill to raise or gain in after you clicked on them.
Maybe they can add a "super Sot" where you choose the skill when activating, in the near future.
 
Last edited:

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It's even worse when more often than not you only get a 0.1 for some totally useless or no longer relevant skill, which seems to happen to me a lot, these skills should be removed from the lists for SoA's and SoT's.
A 0.1 for a skill that you are actually raising is better than nothing but I get Camping and Taste ID way too often...
LOL the last 3 pinks I have gotten from T Chest have been Item ID :)
 

Marquis de Sade 209

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Skill gaining is a grind and the game is way too item based anymore. Luckily with masteries i have been able to raise my taming rather quickly now though, started at 91 on friday and am sitting at 112.8 right now. It would be better if taming was raised in better ways than just spamming masteries though. As far as all characters being finished, that is not always the case. I start on other shards frequently for that very reason, because I actually enjoy building up. However, gone are the days when you would get a group and head to the cemetery between vesper and Cove to gain melee skills, praying a lich doesn't spawn or that a pk doesn't show up....ah good times :p
 
Last edited:

BeaIank

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
I would suggest fel Corgul for some quick SoTs, but this weekend I walked out there with 6+ points worth of taste id and just 4 scrolls of skills worth anything...
 

GarthGrey

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Training skills in UO is utterly awful and completely detached from anything I consider fun in video games.

The sandoxy feels and "gaining skill while venturing with your friends and exploring the world!" and all that pretty picture back-of-the-box Disney stuff is mostly gone; world is old and empty. Most people online are mostly done with training by now. This results in the guy who still needs to grind always feeling like the odd one out. He feels like the only one in the world with unfinished character. Regardless of where you train or build your char, those " hey, me too!" conversations and meetups with another player in similar position are done happening. You are the only kid in the classroom. Somehow, someway entire world has moved past the curves the grinder still has to deal with. He is the only one As a result, building skills is incredibly frustrating lonely walk through a desert. < - - I realize much in this isn't absolute truth or such..But I'd claim most in this is the most likely impression.


I'm getting there. Well, one of my characters is. Magery and focus done, I have 119 SW, 115 Eval and 110 Mysticism now. Something like 45 minutes of hunting with two of my friends yesterday. Result? Not a single gain in any of the skills listed.
Towards the higher 110s. Satyr ******** and GGS feel only viable ways to grind skills. Neither of these feels a particularly healthy way to play. Towards the higher 110's, nothing else feels viable so of course I get to spend plenty of hot summer nights with a Satyr. It is an awful and destructive way to play; it always makes you wonder why bother. Why even play and pay. It is simply so far removed from anything and everything video game should be.

SoAs and SoTs are great and present a solution to this. It's just that they are distributed very..sparingly. So much so that they get hoarded; availability is ¨at least as big an issue as the price tag. Speaking of price tag, it is questionable if the guy training is willing or able to spend tens of millions for relatively modest short cuts. Cost and availability of these scrolls become less of an issue when one is done grinding. ONLY THEN one typically starts having a decent supply of em. Heh.

None in the above presents a difficult issue to either solve or alleviate; stuff like Fire paintings would do wonders. At it's current rate (0.1 skill in random skill every 2 weeks or something?) the feature is somewhere between a gimmick and an insult. Making it available for everybody and literally 100 times more powerful(=10 skillpoints every 2 weeks) would be more like it. Even more drastic measures would be just as welcome; Broadsword could flatly increase the rate of skill gains of every single skill a great deal. Or give players ye olde powerhour back. Maybe through some clicky one can activate once per day.

Finally, I rant about few casting- skills and Eval...these things are relatively close to the easy end of the spectrum. Don't even get me even started on taming..or fishing..or..


My most severe gripes in this are not even tied to the time consumed or effort and gimmicks required. It's more how - all - of the " smart" or " efficient" ways to gain skills at higher levels are toxic to the experience of playing the game.

- -
To end on a very high note!!
Just as I was done writing this, a Guildie hooked me up with over 10 skillpoints worth of mysticism! It speaks much of the community, thank you so very much:)
It also speaks much of SoTs! Those three clicks saved dozens of hours of 'quality time' with Satyr..or months/years of normal gameplay. I wish these were made bit more readily available.
I"m not saying you should come over to Siege, there are enough threads already. But I will say is, this is why those of us on Siege love RoT. You'll see those gains on a regular clockwork basis as you "play the game". That's all I'm going to say.
 

Marquis de Sade 209

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I"m not saying you should come over to Siege, there are enough threads already. But I will say is, this is why those of us on Siege love RoT. You'll see those gains on a regular clockwork basis as you "play the game". That's all I'm going to say.
I loved training poisoning and taming on siege without a doubt
 

Marquis de Sade 209

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I would suggest fel Corgul for some quick SoTs, but this weekend I walked out there with 6+ points worth of taste id and just 4 scrolls of skills worth anything...
The risk vs. Reward i always speak about. a lot of activities on UO have become a waste of time. I know the devs can fix this but they choose not to.
 

It Lives

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Skill Gain should be hard, Developing your characters is a huge part of the game. Skilling up over night would flash start "end game" content, people would get even more bored because they have done it all in a week. Put your time in you'll get more out of it.
 

Flagg

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Back in the day skill WERE your character. Now items are your character. That's why skilling seems so painful and non-substantive... because it is. UO is 100% "end game" now, everything is designed for completely skilled (and usually with at least mid level gear) characters. Instead of "I just GMed Magery! Woohoo!" its "I just got a (insert arti here) drop! Woohoo!" It's fine like that I think, but I also think it's time we make skill gaining a much more quick and simple process.
It feels so crazy they haven't. Through all these years any advances in this regard have always been very cautious. They've never even gone back to some ancient innovations trashed back in early 00s; Powerhour would offer a perfectly fine path here. Just make it a clicky so player can decide when it begins and we'd be far better off.
 
Last edited:

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
It's even worse when more often than not you only get a 0.1 for some totally useless or no longer relevant skill, which seems to happen to me a lot, these skills should be removed from the lists for SoA's and SoT's.
A 0.1 for a skill that you are actually raising is better than nothing but I get Camping and Taste ID way too often...
Well a freaking .1 you can get every day just by logging in as part of the GGS.... so it's like big freaking whoop... it really is a smack in the face.
 

Yadd of Legends

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
Skill Gain should be hard, Developing your characters is a huge part of the game. Skilling up over night would flash start "end game" content, people would get even more bored because they have done it all in a week. Put your time in you'll get more out of it.
As long as the time put in makes sense. I've never leveled up a warrior pounding on a spider at Luna, always done it killing monsters. Kill the right monsters for your level, and you're going to gain at a good pace all the way to legendary. Try that with a mage or tamer. Mage - set a macro and read a book for a couple hours, set another macro and repeat. Tamer - macro masteries for a couple days while you watch movies. The complaint is simply when the mechanism to gain skills has nothing to do with actually playing the game. One solution - tamer should gain by controlling the pet in combat, not just taming 100s of new things. Mage - honestly, I don't have a good solution here, just pretty sure macroing spells for hours on end is not it
 

ShriNayne

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
5
Yeah it does seem a bit mean, they could have made it a random amount up to 0.5 or something, hardly worth bothering for .1, if it was for a more useful amount I wouldn't forget. It's like they have an idea then worry it's too generous and then just cut it back to nothing. Same thing happened with the New Player quest rewards, they were useful then suddenly they were rubbish.
I really don't understand though why useless skills are still in the pool for scrolls, they should just remove them.
 

Marquis de Sade 209

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
As long as the time put in makes sense. I've never leveled up a warrior pounding on a spider at Luna, always done it killing monsters. Kill the right monsters for your level, and you're going to gain at a good pace all the way to legendary. Try that with a mage or tamer. Mage - set a macro and read a book for a couple hours, set another macro and repeat. Tamer - macro masteries for a couple days while you watch movies. The complaint is simply when the mechanism to gain skills has nothing to do with actually playing the game. One solution - tamer should gain by controlling the pet in combat, not just taming 100s of new things. Mage - honestly, I don't have a good solution here, just pretty sure macroing spells for hours on end is not it
I could not agree more with this highlighted point. For quite a while i never went above 90 taming and opted to use jewels until I found out i could tame using the mastery skills. This would make it a lot better if you could raise taming passively just like Lore.
It makes too much sense though, so I do not expect it to ever be implemented :p
 

BeaIank

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
The risk vs. Reward i always speak about. a lot of activities on UO have become a waste of time. I know the devs can fix this but they choose not to.
It would be quite nice if they greatly decreased the chance of Corgul dropping useless skill scrolls.
Could might even revive PvPing on that area. I am there often and never saw another soul nearby.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It would be quite nice if they greatly decreased the chance of Corgul dropping useless skill scrolls.
Could might even revive PvPing on that area. I am there often and never saw another soul nearby.
Corgul is good, so is the tokuno sleeping dragon spawn. can usually pull off 8-9 pinks just letting a pet wander around killing lizard men and kappas and never advance the spawn past kappas. About stroked out the other day, I got 1.6 in taming pinks there in about a hour. Usally its top tier pinks like camping, taste ID, etc.
 

BeaIank

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
Corgul is good, so is the tokuno sleeping dragon spawn. can usually pull off 8-9 pinks just letting a pet wander around killing lizard men and kappas and never advance the spawn past kappas. About stroked out the other day, I got 1.6 in taming pinks there in about a hour. Usally its top tier pinks like camping, taste ID, etc.
Corgul surely loves to give me camping, taste ID and other top tier pinks, yeah.
Yet I can't help but go pester him every weekend.
 
Top