Im sure you can kill any mob in the game without a pet. With or without the HPR nerf.
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Is the Consume Damage HPR nerf too much?
- Thread starter Keith of Sonoma
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You can easily bet on one thing when it comes to the slightly derailed subject...
If Sampires hit Fel and began killing PvP'ers the nerf to them would be quick, fast and in a hurry though... but, until that day comes *shrugs*
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Prob should not have posted that... now they gonna start pancakes about how pets should also be subject to the 720 skill capJust finished this one up on GL sadly my reserve of 120 tactics is depleteFor the valueof the scrolls invested and the time involved training, the pet should be damned effective.
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Guess I keep coming back to.... Why shouldn't a tamer be up there. God knows there are more than a few sampires running auto heal, auto loot, and targeting scripts that are just as plug, that will even evaluate the loot and send to gold to the bank with zero player interaction require, whether attended or not. As far as easy and lack of interaction I just find tamers and sams to be about equal. The ideal PvM combo is when a Tamer and a Sampire Work together and then stuff dies really fast. But no one can get along good enough to do something like that..... Kind of like the lost art of cross healing.
They already did back in the couple of pets are killing PvP threadsProb should not have posted that... now they gonna start pancakes about how pets should also be subject to the 720 skill cap
Cross healing is OP!!!! It needs to be nerfed immediately! ROFL J/K of course.
Don't you remember the endless crying about Paladins and holy fist and the endless crying about paladins taking more than a minute to kill. I will just be glad when they add something else to cry about so the attention will shift away from people having fun and enjoying the taming aspect of the game.
Back in the day that was actually cried about as being OP
Me? I don't care about losing the easy button, since it's not even that much of a loss - Consume will still be good in pub 98, as I'm sure you're already aware. I only use my tamer (consistently) for two things anyway: Shadowguard and Scalis. For everything else, there's MasterCard...oh, sorry. I meant a Sampire.
30 HPR, might as well delete the consume damage function. My beetle already has 20 and it can't tank the monsters that I Want to kill with current consume damage.
Don't nerf consume damage, delete it, for it would remind us of this joke. The same community that tested this years ago decided that this affects the new pet system. New pets are Now OP compared to the legacy GD and that is why we nerf the older Consume Damage. Perfectly makes sense.
And HPR 30, just 30? Who on earth came up with this number? What do you do that is same as 95% of the uo population to prove that 30 is enough? Are those the only few things that you hunt (if so you need to play the game more).
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Don't nerf consume damage, delete it, for it would remind us of this joke. The same community that tested this years ago decided that this affects the new pet system. New pets are Now OP compared to the legacy GD and that is why we nerf the older Consume Damage. Perfectly makes sense.
And HPR 30, just 30? Who on earth came up with this number? What do you do that is same as 95% of the uo population to prove that 30 is enough? Are those the only few things that you hunt (if so you need to play the game more).
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As I have said, no point even wasting time on the new pet system. Some of the pets this group is using will be nerfed in 2 years time, maybe earlier. They have been nerfing the Mage for 20 years.
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Alright, let's try it this way then. Why is the current form of Consume Damage (which is broken) fine as it is, but the new version isn't? If you watched the two videos I posted, you should have seen no difference in A SINGLE TARGET attacking a pet...because there isn't, no matter how hard it might hit - I didn't record my White Wyrm fighting a Blackthorn Dexer Captain, because you have to pay attention to their retargeting, and it's hard to record with an iPhone when you have to watch your tamer. Against a group, Consume will be less effective, but it SHOULD be less effective against a larger # of mobs.
Let me ask you another question: Do you know WHY the White Wyrm I used in those videos was able to tank what it did? If you don't, look no further than this stat: 80% Physical Resist. Last night, I went to Fel Blackthorn on LS, and a Greater Dragon had (likely through casting Curse) reduced my 5-slot Nightmare's Physical resist from 80% to 60%. It has HP comparable to a Greater Dragon, but it was close to dying, even with Consume Damage running.
As for what I do when I do play my tamer, I answered that in my last post: Shadowguard and Scalis. Consume Damage does absolutely NOTHING against Scalis, and only works on half of Shadowguard (Ozymandias and Anon.) If I'm doing anything else on my tamer, it's either out of boredom, pet enhancement (since the revamp, anyway), or because I need to re-train lost skills due to a resurrected pet.
...how do you know this for certain? For the love of god, bringing up Holy Fist is a TERRIBLE way to make your point. It was an uninterruptible 50 damage spell that could be cast at 4/6. What about that is NOT broken?
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Just an example of the long stream of nerfs some like holy fist rightfully so other like consume wrongfully so. Holy Fist because it had a very negative impact on PvP, Consume has no impact on anyone, and don't even try to argue the economy......... the UO economy is so beyond screwed up that it laughable.
well before the taming publish, I posted that the devs should not make the new pets better than a greater dragon. you will have endless nerfs and revamps. the devs didn't listen and look what we have now. along with the masteries I can solo/tank nearly anything in game with ease. its kind of boring really, a joke. it reminds me of the new loot with 10 or more mods and all 20 plus resists, a joke. now some people what more and more, while others want nerfs. not all pets will be godly but people still complain. I always thought it is best to develop at a lowe/medium level than what has been done in the past, then can bump the abilities, not make them so good u have to nerf and nerf again and again. it just pisses people off. the first thing I went for was the phoenix, I thought would be great for pvp and sure enough it was. not only did they nerf it, which I can understand why but they changed the look to the greater phoenix, it just pissed off people, something we didn't ask for. reminds me of the rune books lol.
I actually fall in the "It needs adjusted to some middle ground" It is a mastery afterall and requires real 120/120 to be at peak. capping at 60-70 would be reasonable IMO 30 is a sick multi million gold joke on a lot of people that bought their primers. In the bigger picture when people feel screwed over they tend to move on, really the last thing we need as a community is more people moving on.
Well they really should. Makes no sense they have more skill points than players. IMO pets should be capped at about 500 skill pointsProb should not have posted that... now they gonna start pancakes about how pets should also be subject to the 720 skill cap
Why? It affects you how? How high can you go with jewels etc?
Might as well continue this derailment.
What Is Your Highest Skill Point Character?
Looks like players are OP. Nerf them!
And make it consume Any damage and not just physical.
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Are the 2 examples are enough to make a game-wide change of a top level mastery, and affecting 100% of its use?
I didn't claim to be a fortune teller but i did use the history as the proof.
So many stuff were tested and published for use over a long period of time before they are removed because a small group started to make noise. Then shouldn't any new Publish undergo 2 years testing period before being released.
So for Shadowguard, you can do consume damage and AFK? Then change the code for Shadowguard, create spawns for tamer-only party that auto target the tamer. Make it a challenge so tamers cannot rely on consume damage and go watch YouTube. Change the monsters.
I think we need to have a new thread to nerf this, all-tamers party going into Shadowguard are having a peaceful time. Sampire fight like hell and we get blood oath and died many times (not everyone using Sampire is as good).
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I don't really agree with capping the skill points on pets. (only because of how stupid pets AI is)..
You say that as if Tamers can't add skill increase items AND have a pet with 700+ skills...
but ignoring that point whether it was intentional or not shows a bias.
You seem to be misunderstanding something. If it's a single target attacking the pet, whatever it is (if it's dealing 100% physical damage) will NOT kill it. I tested it on a Bard and an Assassin - the Assassin did a lot more damage than the Bard, but Consume was still able to heal it up. When multiple things are attacking, it's going to be difficult (but not impossible) for Consume to keep a pet alive while you do nothing; if the # of mobs is high enough, even the fixed version of Consume Damage won't save the pet. Healing + Consume might be able to do it, but I haven't tested the limits of how much damage an 80% physical resist pet can take.
Only for 1 of the bosses, but you'll have to be off screen so he can't retarget the tamer. I mean, you COULD do it for Anon, but once he goes into Earth Elemental form, you're not gonna kill him without the ability to command pets/actually see him transform. Also, the range limit that's in place will prevent you from staying out of Ozy/Anon's retarget range. Virtuebane and Juo'nar do other types of damage, so Consume isn't as effective and you'll need to heal the pet(s) you use. Juo'nar is basically a weaker version of the Dark Father, and Virtuebane has access to the 3x damage on pets ability.
Highest rating greater dragons had overcapped wrestling/tactics/physical and fire resist, now when you factor in Magery is better than Mage Mastery if you want your pet to use greater heal a lot more often (+ magic reflect taking away -20 resist jesus...) what have we got in comparison...
Cu Sidhe = 120/120 tactics max cap, 80 in all important pvm resists, +20 HPR, healing+anatomy can now be 120, chiv/mysticism heals +healing.
less resists, chiv or mysticism same as greater healing spam but we now have 20hpr + healing/anatomy going over the GM mark so really Cu Sidhe is better but not so much better than the good Greater Dragons we had of old when we are talking about a pet's tanking effectiveness alone! So when we talk about Consume Damage being knocked by 70 odd % HPR effectiveness would you say hand on heart than this new Cu Sidhe is 70% better at tanking than a high rating GD?
Was strictly speaking of pets VS Players Skill caps. Personally I tend to wear the turn in jewels on my tamers for the luck and they are not bad pieces for a mage or a fighter template. I give up alot of mods on most of my tamers to hit a min 2470 gear luck. Which does make a difference in the long run loot quality. But hat is a whole different topic........
Pet AIs are horrible and the more abilities you add to the pet the more brain dead they become. On the surface this hiryu (Same one I posted the scrolled section) look like a great pet. Folks have said in game that it is OP. They should see how fast it gets chewed to pieces in mobs. It is limited to single target combat Navery and Dreadhorn is why I built this one, because it is too stupid to fight more than one thing at a time due to spamming EOO. Any semi competent PvP can kill it fast, heck even before they castrated pets in PvP another one just like this one only in a different color and 120 tactics instead of 115 was at best a minor speed bump for a marginal PvP mainly because pets are really stupid
The God Chiv Lesser looks like a real bad ass on the surface and it is in a limited number of situations. I would hardly call it OP though as it like every other pet has far more weaknesses than strengths.
I think the new pets and consume damage are fine as it is, they are only useful combinations in specific situation. If any specific encounter is causing them to look "OP" then make modifications to those isolated cases and not an easy way out by just "nerfing" a skill.
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It's not a nerf. It's fixing a bug - it was never supposed to have the HP Regen it currently does. Other than that, they're not changing how the ability works.
And change the monsters? To what? Elemental damage instead of physical? Great idea! In fact, let's do that for every monster in the game, so Consume is completely useless.
Come on now. You cant call it a bug when its been that way for 2 years. Are you seriously telling me that for 2 years the devs overlooke.... eh nevermind.
It is already useless by reducing the hpr to 30, just 10 above the Hpr max of 20. Might as well change the mastery to something else instead.
But change to consume all damage would make it likely useful again.
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You keep stating this like it's an axiom. How do you know what it was supposed to be? Devs already had a pass at balancing/nerfing it when they upped the mana requirements for it. Something tells me that if they thought it was a bug they would have capped it then.
Fact is, this mastery eats enough mana as to be unsustainable on many templates and barely sustainable on others. That is a pretty severe downside. In order for people to accept this negative, it can't be just merely OK. It's benefit has to be commensurate to it's requirements. And after the nerf that is no longer the case. People simply will not bother using it because Gheal is a better more flexible use of one's mana. And again we will see another feature join the ranks of the silent 90% that nobody ever bothers using.
One of my tamers wears a luck suit with 9 MR, 40 LMC, and 115 Med. If I'm just maintaining the mastery, do you know how often I run out of mana? I don't. On the same character, when I use my LS pvp suit (which has 21 MR and gives me 178 mana), I actually GAIN Mana between maintenance ticks. It only costs 4 mana (due to Regen ticks, it will sometimes appear to cost 2 or 3 mana), which allows me to cast spells for a while before I need to stop. If I dropped Med, not sure how easily I could maintain it, but I'd guess it would last a while.
Useless against what? Single targets? Take an 80% physical resist (or higher) pet to TC1, give yourself 120/120 real, then go down to Fel Blackthorn (Britain city replica) and see how well your pet does against the Assassin captain. It will NOT die with Consume Damage running.
Multiple targets? You saw how much health it lost against 2 Greater Dragons/2 Dragons - it went down to about 60%. With more mobs on it, I can't say how much HP it would have lost. However it works, why should ANY pet easily survive against so many monsters at once? If I get 4 Greater Dragons on any of my trained-up pets on LS/Atl, NONE of them will take more than 10% damage with Consume up.
btw, changing it to absorb all damage? Really? Great idea, let's make every monster in the game (that isn't Slasher, Stygian Dragon, or an EM mob) completely useless against pets.
How is it working as intended that pets are effectively immortal against physical damage? There has only been one time I've seen a pet with Consume die to physical damage-dealing monsters, and that required a crapton of Dragons and Greaters casting spells on it in addition to dealing physical damage.
Also, it would've been fixed by now if it were a bug? Maybe, maybe not. Tamers, even with Consume, were inferior to Sampires/Whammies, and only one pet (the Greater Dragon) had the Physical Resist to make use of it. Since the pet revamp, every pet you can train is capable of making use of Consume. It may not have been a bug, but it's clearly imbalanced.
I'm fine with 30 HP Regen or whatever the # is. The range limit is fine too - there may be one in place now (other than the current "it won't affect a pet in a dungeon if you're in Luna" situation), but I don't know what it is, if it even exists. Regardless, having the ability to run any Mastery when you're several screens away is broken.
Are Assassin Captains meant to be level 5 or higher boss? Why shouldn't a slot 5 trained pet with level 3 mastery tamer not being able to take care of this easily ?
What is wrong with being able to tank 2gd and 2 dragons. One has a Legendary tamer with highest level 3 mastery and a pet at slot 5 or we can just quote a 4.1 GD. We are not talking about a newbie character running 100 taming and controlling a slot 3 pet with level 1 mastery and able to tank against 4 major monsters.
So what is your expectation for a level 3 mastery and slot 5? Do we need to cast greater heal and use Vet on them when taking on Orcs, Terathans and Ophidians? Then we need to nerf more. Maybe we need to heal the pet when fighting a Mongbat. It's way too OP now.
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...have you ever fought one of the Captains? Without Consume, the Dexers (Macer, Assassin, Sampire, Swordsman, to name a few) tear pets apart unless you have multiple people healing it non-stop, and that's with spells AND Vet.
Did I say there was anything wrong with a 120/120 tamer being able to do that, in any of the times I've brought it up? Once again: it was done to point out that the new version of Consume Damage works against multiple monsters, but your pets have limits on the amount of things it can tank.
...where did THIS come from? Oh, wait. I know exactly where.
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Most encounters involve combination of damage. So situations where the pet is immune are rare on the top end. At the same time, there are pets who are immune to poison damage even without consume. You can find pets that are effectively immune to cold and fire damage as well. So? Start waving the nerf stick at them as well?
What you call immune is in reality pet successfully tanking as long as the tamer is alive and nearby, i.e. doing it's job as intended. At the same time, the tamer is still as squishy as before and can't invis or hide for any length of time. If tamer dies, the pet follows. So let's not pretend like Consume is some sort of an "I win button".
Yeah, I think I lost you somewhere back there. I am just a simple player who has little time to play because of work, so sad. What you are complaining is too complicated for a simple player like me to understand. A simple player who spent months working their way up to get the TOP skills and yet just found out someone changed them for a "noble" reason.
I will refrain from commenting further, go on and make it HPR 30, and let the slot 5 pet die easily even with consume damage fighting whatever gets on your nerve. I will play with whatever bones are left in this game.
Thanks, ends my involvement.
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The encounters that involve combinations of damage (i.e. different damage types) require you to heal the pet. If it's damage from spells/special abilities, you don't have to do anything if the monster deals 100% physical damage (Greater Dragon, Barracoon, Blackthorn Dexer Captains.) That's the case on both live shards and TC.
Consume's not an "I win" button? Really? I can take 2 tamers to the T-Rex on live shards, have my pets attack it, then go a few screens away so it doesn't re-target and attack my tamers, while my pets kill it without me having to do anything other than run a mastery.
Actually, it's NOT hard to understand, and you didn't lose me anywhere - your "Argument" is just that bad. To put it simply, you don't want to understand because "muh Consume is being changed."
What will a 5-slot pet easily die to? A single target? Shoot me a PM the next time you decide to log in on Test Center. I will head down to Blackthorn (Fel or Tram, your choice. I would have to find the Captains on Tram side though), shout for you in gen chat, and show you how effective Consume is against a single target attacking a pet. Multiple targets? I've already plainly established that it's going to be less effective. If you can't avoid a situation where multiple mobs are attacking/killing a single pet (well, besides a Champ Spawn, which you wouldn't solo with a tamer anyway) even with Consume up, I don't know what to tell you.
The distance part is being fixed there has not been a single word of complaint against that. So T-Rex will be able to re-target and kill your tamer. Still an "I win button"?
Considering I said I can do it on LIVE SHARDS right now, yes.
Well it's not like T-Rex comes with "phat" loot or anything so really who cares???
Honestly you all make mountains out of molehills...
And if you are going to tell me that you get Legendary's off T-Rex again I say so what???
99.9% of the loot in this game is totally useless... It doesn't work for mages without having FC/FCR on it .... it doesn't work for Dexers since most the time it comes with SDI and other garbage and no HCI or anything... DI and SDI... almost always together... yet no FC/FCR or HCI... so what is your point?
I don't fight the T-Rex for the loot. I fight it for the pet training gains - unlike Navrey and the Crazed mages, a lot of people don't go there, so you'll have it all to yourself until the pet reaches 100% (or stops gaining.)
So why are you getting all bent over it?
...who said I was? I think I've pretty clearly stated that I'm fine with Consume having a range limit, since being able to keep it running from 5+ screens away is just dumb.
And if it did give "phat loot" would that make any difference? I'm confused, so if this could be farmed nearly none stop with consume you would have a issue with it but everything else that you could personally farm none stop is different, why?
So it seems we are in agreement - remove the infinite distance effect and it's no longer an "I win button" and can be left alone, right?
Not entirely. For things that can re-target (T-Rex, Captains, Shadowguard, Harrower), it isn't. For mobs that don't, like Greater Dragons & Champs, it is (if the Champs deal physical damage, anyway - off the top of my head, only one that does 100% physical is Barracoon)
They already can with a different template. Why cant a tamer? The pet needs fed once in a while. Armor lasts a lot longer.