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Is the Consume Damage HPR nerf too much?
- Thread starter Keith of Sonoma
- Start date
- Watchers 11
A bit maybe, but it did need to be toned down.
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Sure.. there is no doubt once the pet revamp hit that the combination of Consume and increased hp's/resists etc became something that even I (a tamer addict) would say was OP. But carrying it to where it is currently at on TC is imho laughable. It makes the grind that is getting/finding a level 3 primer nowhere near worth it. If the 'reports' of Consume hitting as high as 150-170 are accurate then try to find a sweet spot between those numbers and the 30 number that is currently on TC.... start at the 85ish range and work from there...
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oh and btw...
I also think the mana cost should be re-evaluated. We should not be able to run Consume, cast spells and regen mana *shrugs*.. now, consider the source of that comment
I also think the mana cost should be re-evaluated. We should not be able to run Consume, cast spells and regen mana *shrugs*.. now, consider the source of that comment
So we can accurately test this and figure out if it's a fair nerf, what pets and or mobs are you finding the issue with.
As for run consume, cast spells and regen mana.... that's a decently priced suit and spec 120 taming/lore and 100 med and 30 mana regen on suit... so... nerf the people who worked for it... and it further hurts the people who don't because their consume will last even shorter?
As for run consume, cast spells and regen mana.... that's a decently priced suit and spec 120 taming/lore and 100 med and 30 mana regen on suit... so... nerf the people who worked for it... and it further hurts the people who don't because their consume will last even shorter?
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Hmmmm....
Got me there.. definitely should be a way to "fix" that without further hurting those who have not been able to snag the higher end stuff or the casual player...
A few years ago Draconi was talking about "limited returns".. and mr seemed to really give no real huge benefit after the mr18 range... maybe some kind of return to that mindset??
So you don't want to hurt the people who haven't worked for it? But want to for the 120 natural skill tamers who have? That makes no sense, tamers should be rewarded for being true tamers instead of jewelry tamers. Swordsman are rewarded for 120 real. I don't expect my half arsed characters to perform as well as those who put the effort or skill points into it.
This is a TAMING MASTERY. You have mastered the art of taming.
This is a TAMING MASTERY. You have mastered the art of taming.
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I understand what you are saying when it comes to the taming mastery.. but what does being a taming master have to do with ones ability to regen mana? The two are separate issues for me.. not linked. I mean heck the same thing imo should be looked at when it comes to any buff that has a mana cost... none of them should be able to be ran around with clock with no limit due to someone over regenning the effects of it...
but to each their own
but to each their own
I think in this case the MR and Consume are tied together. I know that the higher your "real" skill in taming and lore are, the lower the mana cost the Consume Damage takes to keep up.I understand what you are saying when it comes to the taming mastery.. but what does being a taming master have to do with ones ability to regen mana? The two are separate issues for me.. not linked. I mean heck the same thing imo should be looked at when it comes to any buff that has a mana cost... none of them should be able to be ran around with clock with no limit due to someone over regenning the effects of it...
but to each their own
FYI, good discussion so far IMO! Keep it up.
Because that is what happens when you gain in taming skill, the mana cost is reduced the higher your natural skill. It just becomes more efficient as your taming goes higher. the 110 tamer in the same 30 mr/100 med suit just won't have consume be as efficient because it costs more, therefore is more of a mana drain The mana regen efficiency *is* the perk for natural taming. So they are very much linked.
@Bleak I think if they do end up leaving it at 30, there needs to be a way to recoup the PS's on the pets that have been trained and "imbued" using the current/production shard caps. I know a have at least 10-15 pets that I won't use in certain instances because of the nerf.
Let's face it, if the pets are going to take more damage (Which I have tested and found to be true), then at a minimum they are going to need more HP's. Not something I can change on my current pets of course.
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I get ya there... One of my tamers is real skill 95/95.. and even he can out regen the cost of Consume, granted on that particular char it is only 1 tick of mana for each cycle... I have no problem with a natural 120/120 tamer getting a lower mana cost on Consume than a 95/95 tamer. I know all too well how many hours were dedicated to getting that level of skill.. and players should see some benefit from it. For me it's not really a mana cost issue as much as it is the suits are getting utterly insane...
which.. don't get me wrong now.. I will enjoy the benefits of them as much, and as long as I can.. I just think it is something that should be tempered some across the board.
which.. don't get me wrong now.. I will enjoy the benefits of them as much, and as long as I can.. I just think it is something that should be tempered some across the board.
The boat has sailed on that. The suits and combos unfortunately are out there. The mana regen is out there for people. You know what I would love nerfed, but know will never happen? +skills on armor/jewelry. No way someone with 90, 100 or 110 natural taming should be able to control the same high level beasts as someone who put in the time to get 120, that to me has always been a slap in the face. So I'm good with nerfing mana regen on suits if they nerf all the +skills on suits But I don't expect that to happen. I understand there gear is out there and it's not going anywhere.
So what is the difference between my 120 tamer and a 90? a few mana per second on consume. And I accept that is the current state of the game and unlikely to change.
But I don't expect that to happen. I understand there gear is out there and it's not going anywhere.So what is the difference between my 120 tamer and a 90? a few mana per second on consume. And I accept that is the current state of the game and unlikely to change.
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And what is his spec and his gear? Saying this without specifics is meaningless.
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real skill 95 taming.. 110 lore (forgot I raised that a while back lol) and last I counted around mr32 and 98 med (decreasing to raise taming)..
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Ummm what part are you suspect of?
Never seen where that was the case.. the last I knew the moved away from a cap and moved towards the "diminishing returns" system.. but that was also around the time imbuing hit... so I could have missed that info on one of my UO breaks...
My understanding is that it is "diminishing returns" not a hard cap.
Even if it is diminishing rer
The more precise information people can give regarding how it affects Tamers, the better other tamers can test to confirm the problem. Also the better Bleak can look at it.
Can you give examples of pets (plus skills) and mobs you have tested this on also the template of your tamer?
The more precise information people can give regarding how it affects Tamers, the better other tamers can test to confirm the problem. Also the better Bleak can look at it.
I have tested it on Ancient Wyrms, Paragon Ancient Wyrms, trogs, Lurg, Grobu, and greater dragons. With A hiryu that is fully 120 PS'd up. The pet takes a lot more damage than before the nerf. The crim and plat drakes do even worse on test (they have less HP's), and I feel like they will no longer be useful in the situations they were designed for.
Tamer is 120 real taming and lore.
Ok. That is a good start. Can you tell me the hits of both the Hiryu and Crim and Plat drakes?
What is your hiryus abilities?
One example among many.......... Ossein Ram Effective Necro pet with Consume as it is. Ossein Ram worthless stable filler with consume as proposed. A lot of pets were built with lower HP and more scrolls and other attributes based on the ability to run consume to bring them up to par. With consume as proposed on TC those pets will effectively become worthless despite having 100 mil + in scrolls on them. Perhaps scaling consume to the HP of the critter might be a option? Or adding training rounds for all the very good pets about to be made useless stable fillers.
Exactly! This sums it up very well.
I agree the nerf is too much, but I think Tamers should work on presenting their argument a bit better with actual data.
At 95/95, Combat Training mastery isn't worth running. Takes too much Mana, and barely has any effect. The Taming Mastery abilities effectiveness scales very sharply with real skill, to the point where there's a big difference even between 115/115 and 120/120. I'm not just talking about the Mana Upkeep cost. I'm also talking about the amount of Physical damage that Empowerment/Consume Damage will absorb, and the amount of DI/SDI, HCI/HPR you'll get back.
My Disco/Tamer with 120 Taming/120 Lore (Real), 40% LMC, 12 MR, 80.0 Med and 150 Mana can run Consume Damage indefinitely, but his mana regen just barely keeps up with it. If i start casting spells, it dips into my Mana Pool, and i can cast only so many G-Heals before i run out of Mana, and have to drop Consume to regen my Mana back to full. This is in a Luck suit.
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Consume has been bugged since its inception and they just now got around to fixing it. Spending lots of gold on scrolls that people decided to do doesn't change that, that was a choice of yours instead of farming your own scrolls. There is still a hidden aspect of it where it actually eats damage that doesn't show on the buff bar icon. Only difference from nerfed one and now is the HPR wont cover the spell damage from monsters like it did before. Which mean its working correctly at the new nerfed version. Just heal your pets and stop whining.
I don't consider it whining when I made a decision based on the current parameters, and then they change them after the fact.
The best way to nerf Consume Damage, is to introduce mobs and bosses that don't deal majority Physical Damage. During an EM event last month, i was using my Saurosaurus with 85 Physical/90 Fire Resist and Consume Damage running to tank almost everything like a baws. He tanked the Hell Goats, the Tangles, the swarms of 30+ Hell Hounds, the Corruptions (looked like black Corpsers), even the two Cave Dragons spawned by the EM, all without breaking a sweat because they did mostly Physical/Fire damage. As soon as the EM spawned some Corruption Vortexes (which dealt 90% Poison Damage and looked like black EVs) and Putrifiers (which deal 50% Poison Damage) though, my Saurosaurus started running into problems since he has only 45 Poison Resist, and Consume Damage doesn't apply to Poison damage. I had to pull my Saurosaurus back to the stables, and bring out my Dread Spider, which tanked the Corruption Vortexes and Putrifiers like a baws, due to his 100% Poison Resist.
It'd be a great way to promote pet variety too. Sick and tired of seeing people bring nothing but Cu Sidhes for everything, when i'm seemingly the only person that changes pets based on what i'm hunting. The Nightmare Fairy that the new event will introduce is a good step in that direction, it has 100% Energy Resist and 80+ Cold Resist, it'll make Cu Sidhes break their teeth on it. Meanwhile, it's weakest to Fire, which Fire Beetles and 100% Fire Drakes would do well against.
It'd be a great way to promote pet variety too. Sick and tired of seeing people bring nothing but Cu Sidhes for everything, when i'm seemingly the only person that changes pets based on what i'm hunting. The Nightmare Fairy that the new event will introduce is a good step in that direction, it has 100% Energy Resist and 80+ Cold Resist, it'll make Cu Sidhes break their teeth on it. Meanwhile, it's weakest to Fire, which Fire Beetles and 100% Fire Drakes would do well against.
Are you ever going to stop whining about what you perceive to be whining?
Exactly, after a couple of years the trend has been it is no longer a bug but a feature
And not to mention this topic was beat to death when masteries came out
Welcome to any mmo ever.
But it is whining when you ignore video evidence (that can be replicated by ANY tamer) in favor of "your own research." I don't know how much plainer I could make it for you - what would you like me to record next? (Insert pet here) vs Blackthorn Dexer Captain? Because I did that on TC1 as well, and had no issues...and those hit a hell of a lot harder than the 2 Dragons/2 Greater Dragons I fought in Fel Destard.
But hey, if you think Consume needs to be changed from how it is on TC1 now (it doesn't), please, by all means, post the research you've done on the subject. Preferably as a video.
I just went champ Spawn and finally for the umpteenth time I got a level 3 taming mastery 3.
However I am unexcited and stuffed it somewhere in my castle and forgot where I put it.
I tested with dragons most time, and you need good mana regen to maintain consume damage and 80 plus physical resistance to have benefit for god mode afk feature. A pet with 75 physical RS is not enough. Tried this against 4Gd and 4 Dragons or so, died with consume damage (production shard).
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However I am unexcited and stuffed it somewhere in my castle and forgot where I put it.
I tested with dragons most time, and you need good mana regen to maintain consume damage and 80 plus physical resistance to have benefit for god mode afk feature. A pet with 75 physical RS is not enough. Tried this against 4Gd and 4 Dragons or so, died with consume damage (production shard).
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Since it's inception you say? So it was tested on the same monsters and was Ok then. Then suddently after more than 2 years you guys have enjoyed the "exploit" and decided this is the right time to remove it? So who should we fire for this?
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That is a good point, change the mobs not our skills.
I think we should check out what are the favourites these days, which usually means they will become OP 2 years later. Consume damage was tested and verified OK for release and now became OP with nothing changed? All of you who have spent hours training your pet, get ready for the next nerf stick. Any favourites and effective pet will be nerf down to oblivion soon and your effort will come to waste.
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Other masteries are going to be x10 better and cooler, that's the underlining issue.
Rework the taming mastery.
Rework the taming mastery.
Nerfed down to oblivion? Really? Have you even tested consume on TC, or are you Malagaste 2.0/going by Keith's non-existent "Research" on the subject? It still works just fine against Blackthorn Dexer Captains...and I'm sure you know how much damage those can do to a pet. If you'd like me to test it against something else, name it.
Also, nothing's changed with pets since Consume was introduced? lolwut. Before the pet revamp, the ONLY thing it worked with was a Greater Dragon, since nothing else had the HP or resists to do any tanking. Now EVERY pet in the game can far eclipse the power of even a 5.0 GD, which allows them to make full use of Consume Damage.
The fact I choose not to "publish" my testing does not make it "non-existent", and to insinuate it is, is just childish. FYI, some Captains do a lot of damage to pets, some do hardly any damage at all. Surely you knew that???
Try it on the same things I did, (see post #22)on Test and on your home shard, and then tell me there isn't a pretty big difference.
Consume shouldn't protect your pet from spellcaster mobs, which is what it did prior to this. Devs obviously didn't notice how OP it was when pets weren't as strong before the taming patch. Now its easy to see how ridiculous it is, why else would the mastery cost so much if it wasn't OP. Now its gonna work like they intended it to from the start. Its still pretty strong on TC, there is no reason raise it up more. Its still gonna be the best mastery used in the game, its five times better then every other mastery. Swords mastery only costs like 20M, even after this nerf to taming mastery itll still go for 50M+. This is why I said its whining, gimme a break already.
You are always welcome to start your own POLL.
We have a lot of features...
Best mastery!? why? because it's simple? 1. it has no application in pvp 2. POTENTIAL 30 hpr increase from absorbing physical damage only, the HCI is by the by unless we're talking about improving odds of your pet hitting fient increasing it's defense substantially for 6 seconds.
Yes in terms of tanking and in comparison to the old high rating greater dragons that greater healed themselves pretty well, tanking via pets got improved :
20 HPR pet and either take a cu that now has 120 heal/anatomy or bushido hiryuu with defensive skills BUT forget about the pet tanking! that crap was possible way before animal taming mastery and the taming rework, The player itself is still at the same risk as before and killing the best things in the game is still more or less exactly the same and the sampire still holds the crown, nothing has changed! Unless of course you are one of few people who doesn't lke the fact a T-Rex is getting butchered without barely a finger lifted but who's fault is that! the creature has bloody brain dead AI and is 100% physical!
To clarify, animal taming mastery is useless for pvp, it has nothing to protect the tamer itself or give him any utility other than make an already tanky pet even tankier (worth it...no) + actually sapping away the mana of the tamer provides the tamer with even less utility than he already started with. How in the hell can you say with confidence that Consume damage is the best mastery when it's the most expensive HCI buff I have ever fricking seen and if you think animal taming mastery is the best I don't want to ever know of what templates you create. Any bard mastery is better than this, playing the odds from archery is better, pick any other mastery than taming it has more versatility not only in pvm but pvp too.
I don't even have real animal taming skill btw I skill bonus with jewellery but I'm involving myself in this discussion because other than whispering which my good friend uses for my pet's on occasion this mastery is not only truly shafted next publish but it was shafted to begin with. Making pet's tankier is op? do me a favor and give me a break!
Currently unless you completely gimp your template and suit towards generating mana, you can't run Consume, cast spells and regen mana.oh and btw...
I also think the mana cost should be re-evaluated. We should not be able to run Consume, cast spells and regen mana *shrugs*.. now, consider the source of that comment
If you nerf Consume to a point that it's just another spell, then the mana requirements should be dropped, not raised. If you balance it to a point where Consume is the only thing you can do at a given time, then yeah, it better be powerful or nobody will use it. For an example of this look at 90% of masteries. High mana demands combined with mediocre returns results in zero use.
That's not nerfing in the sense of balancing it. That's making it useless. Do you see anyone bothering to use Consume if majority of pets are doing elemental Damage, especially with the mastery switching timer?
No **** I was aware of it, since Dexer Captains have the 3x damage on pets ability. Why do you think I went there? btw, you know Ancient Wyrms do 25% fire damage, right?
I'm not disputing the difference between the amount of damage healed by Consume on live shards and what it's healing on Test. In my 4v1 video, if I did that on LS or Atl, the White Wyrm wouldn't have gone below 90% health. My issue is the whining about post-nerf Consume being useless, when it isn't. If anything, live shards Consume is OVERPOWERED (and has been since 2015), which is why it's getting fixed.
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With suits being what they are these days you can be gimp really easy though. Most especially if you throw in a little Soul Charge. Heck about the only time I really run out of mana is when I am spamming 813+ WOD's and running Consume... *shrugs*