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What on earth are you talking about?
LOL I know one of those things I just never seem to get around to. But Blackie is correct pathfinding is a major component in most scripts that move characters and would leave them basically non functional if it were removed.Turn it off?
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A good example of the right kind of thinking to address 'excesses' in the game. This involves simple DESIGN FIX and not some whiny post about 'more cops to 'get people' '. Great Post.
Maybe it's something completely different in the CC, but cant imagine running around in the EC without pathfinding. Like I should move around each tree in my way manually? 
This suggestion is beyond stupid and in no way a fix to anything. Luckily, Mesanna isn't taking input from UHall anyway 
This suggestion is beyond stupid and in no way a fix to anything. Luckily, Mesanna isn't taking input from UHall anyway
In CC you do move around everything manually, yes trees. Another reason was EC is OP compared to CC only it looks too UG-LEEMaybe it's something completely different in the CC, but cant imagine running around in the EC without pathfinding. Like I should move around each tree in my way manually?
Actually, no. I've been wanting them to add a macro to toggle pathfinding on and off like you can do with Circle of Transparency. It's bizarre to me that this isn't already an option(unless I've just been missing it).
Nice to have pathfinding on for navigating through the maze of trees on the raised areas of T2A. It's obviously annoying to have on in a million other situations and having it on all the time has led me into some pretty brutal mistakes in pvp and pvm.
Same idea as CoT toggle. Yew gate fighting, great to have on to see behind and between buildings for obstacles and targeting. But holy cow, is it annoying that it makes all the trees invisible as you're running, with CoT left on all I do is run into trees. I'm constantly toggling CoT around yew, very handy. They need to add this for pathfinding too.
Nice to have pathfinding on for navigating through the maze of trees on the raised areas of T2A. It's obviously annoying to have on in a million other situations and having it on all the time has led me into some pretty brutal mistakes in pvp and pvm.
Same idea as CoT toggle. Yew gate fighting, great to have on to see behind and between buildings for obstacles and targeting. But holy cow, is it annoying that it makes all the trees invisible as you're running, with CoT left on all I do is run into trees. I'm constantly toggling CoT around yew, very handy. They need to add this for pathfinding too.
Uhm, what a pain!
The EC doesn't have pathfinding. It does have collision avoidence though.
Not entirely. Retiring the compromised CC would solve a tremendous amount of UO's issues and take a boatload of stress off the devs.
But that will likely never happen because too many luddites play UO and/or dont want to lose their ability to cheat.
Out of curiosity: You double click a tile in CC and the character walks over there automatically or what is "pathfinding" in the CC then?
It is also my impression that the Dev team itself prefers CC over EC *shrugs*
Best thing about the client IMO. I loved zipping through the woods the few times I played it.
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Bleak plays the EC I think, but the rest of the devs play CC. They've posted screenshots of various things over the years and Bleak's are always in EC.
You would think then that certain aspects of it would drive him insane and he'd FIX them... but maybe that's just me.
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Or, you know, non-luddite, non-cheaters just hate the look of EC.
If there was a graphics toggle, I'd switch yesterday and never look back.
Yup
It works great with a clear path.
Yup. I still get stuck in trees and it goes in a circle or takes you away from where you want to go.
It works great with a clear path.
Scripts don't need Pathfinding, the OP already mentioned that, and he's right.
It would break a few scripts, but re-writing rails to avoid obstructions without the need for "pathfinding" wouldn't take long, and those people who profit off the game due to the use of scripts would do just that.
Nothing short of enforcing the RoC/ToS will prevent most people from "cheating". Even then it won't stop all of it, but it'll reduce it... at least until UO goes F2P, Then it won't cost anything to set up bot accounts...
It would break a few scripts, but re-writing rails to avoid obstructions without the need for "pathfinding" wouldn't take long, and those people who profit off the game due to the use of scripts would do just that.
Nothing short of enforcing the RoC/ToS will prevent most people from "cheating". Even then it won't stop all of it, but it'll reduce it... at least until UO goes F2P, Then it won't cost anything to set up bot accounts...
Uhm...huh? Did you mean to ask "what is "pathfinding" in the EC then?"
I think Mesanna has some extreme nostalgia for it, to the detriment of the game. Various incarnations of the team have lamented having to support two clients, one of which is a nightmare to code for (their words). Nostalgia, however, won't bring back subs. As evidenced by the continued noticeable decline in players.
I dont think nostalgia comes into it. I think they realise that if they ditched the CC then enough players would just throw in the towel that the game would shut down.
Graphics toggle for the mobs? CC mobs would look awful in the increased resolution of the EC, they simply weren't designed for today's resolutions. It's really a shame that EA/Mythic went with a shoddy third party graphics studio who changed the look of so many mobs when making KR/EC
This will happen by simple attrition anyway, the decline will just be more prolonged and painful.
And if messana thought that ditching the CC would mean everyone jumping to the EC, and the player base actually increasing it would be done in a heartbeat. Point being it has nothing to do with nostalgia. CC is around because it retains subs.
When a lot of the reason people want to hang onto the CC is for the ease of using third party automation software, I'm not sure I really care. Especially since BS does absolutely nothing to combat that problem. The CC remains an albatross to any actual growth.
And its a dilemma. Cant move forward with the CC and cant survive without it.
No, it was a serious question. @Pawain already gave me an answer though
I never really touched the CC apart from this one horrible experience when I tried to automate slayer spellbook crafting with it
I doubt they play much apart from basic testing while developing. I wouldn't even expect that, since their job is not to hang out in-game with us for hours but to develop the game. I would also rather see a producer working out issues with EA/Mythic/Rob Denton/etc. instead of sending out silly flamestrikes or collecting kudos from players that hope to get something special from her. But for now we are stuck we a lead that rather plays GM than producer.
According to this he may have made the switch back to CC.
I tried the EC I liked a lot of its features some of the mods graphics are far better but over all it makes me nauseous
I feel KR graphics could have been much better but they gave up on it (not sure about the over all function of it)
All I use is the CC and I have only tried the approved 3rd party add-on 1 time for less than a month
Not all CC users cheat I never have but I'll keep trying to fit in that little box some here want to put me in (CC users all script)
I would love to have a better client but until they make one that doesn't look and feel so sickly I'm staying with the CC
Having only one client I feel would be much better and free up the devs time so they could fix bugs, exploits and balance issues
Just my opinions not trying to turns this into anther EC vs CC post
I feel KR graphics could have been much better but they gave up on it (not sure about the over all function of it)
All I use is the CC and I have only tried the approved 3rd party add-on 1 time for less than a month
Not all CC users cheat I never have but I'll keep trying to fit in that little box some here want to put me in (CC users all script)
I would love to have a better client but until they make one that doesn't look and feel so sickly I'm staying with the CC
Having only one client I feel would be much better and free up the devs time so they could fix bugs, exploits and balance issues
Just my opinions not trying to turns this into anther EC vs CC post
Rails will record the coordinates of the movements and its up to the script whether it wants to use pathfinding or not. Without pathfinding, yes the scripts will still work, but they won't work as well and will require manual intervention when the character gets stuck. While the scripts can still work for the most part, it won't be easy for people to press play and go to work while they make $$ in game. This will make most of the automated resource farming a pain in the ass
It's easy? Let's say hypothetically you're a dev, what do you do to stop scripting?
A simple mandatory client patch once per week would keep both the big ones broken. Another option would be changing all of the container IDs and keeping the new ids under wraps. If the script can't recognize or tell the difference between a container and sword the script is effectively broken. There are a wide number of things that can be done server side to break the scripts and consoles some taking more effort than others.
Good suggestions. I suppose the daily patching would stop the majority of users, though the now open sourced nature of one of those big ones would still allow some of the more tech savvy to continue. As for the id changing, I can only imagine this change would break more things internally than might be realized.
For years I've suggested a mandatory patch to change that changed the encryption schema every 3 days. A week would allow the script programs at least a few days of functionality, assuming someone continued to bother trying. They could also neuter some of the hooks into the client, though that would probably kill UOA.
Mesanna isn't interested in a fair, level paying field though. She's made that abundantly clear.
Mesanna isn't interested in a fair, level paying field though. She's made that abundantly clear.
Changing container IDs would either be a very easy fix or a very time consuming and long fix.Would really come down to what else is connected to the ids.
Pretty sure the only way they could keep people from just regetting them (you have to patch the client and since that's not really encrypted... someone could easily get the new IDs...
Sadly I'm pretty sure the best way to stop most of the scripting and cheating is to lose the CC...
Now I know a bunch of folk cry and say "oh if they did that I'd quit..." well I'm fairly sure that if they haven't quit by now... with the state of the game... dropping the CC will not make them quit... they will **** and Moan... sure... but I have a feeling that a majority would put on their big kid britches and get over it...
Now how long it would then take the more nefarious to make scripts and such for the EC is anyone's guess...
Trust me were the CC to be dropped I would be gone real fast, and not because I cheat....... I just can't stomach looking at that steaming pile of crap they call the enhanced client......... enhanced with what I am not quite sure
You want to kill UO for good lose the CC because I am far from the only one that literally hates the EC.
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Saying there is nothing you can do about scripting when you have made no attempt to even begin to find solutions is a bit pathetic. There is a big difference between trying and failing or just throwing your hands in the air and saying, we can't do a thing about it!
I don't know that losing the CC would actually solve the problem, cheaters gonna cheat, no matter what! It would maybe make it harder for a while, but will they really want to lose all those scripters accounts?
I think they do know they would lose a lot of accounts if they stopped people using the CC. It can be very hard to let something go when it's all you've known for almost 20 years.
I don't know that losing the CC would actually solve the problem, cheaters gonna cheat, no matter what! It would maybe make it harder for a while, but will they really want to lose all those scripters accounts?
I think they do know they would lose a lot of accounts if they stopped people using the CC. It can be very hard to let something go when it's all you've known for almost 20 years.
I'd leave with my multitude of accounts as would many others if they shut down the cc so you are most certainly wrong on that point. I do agree though that once that happened the cheaters would just make ones for the ec if they havn't already.
The single biggest and best way to dramatically curb scripting is to make the incentive (profit margin) smaller. The best way to do that is to make content less of a grind and more account bound.
Let's take one of the top end Doom rewards for example:
Scholars Halo... what if the Doom gauntlet was a quest you accepted at the start of each run. If you got looting rights in each of the rooms and on a dark father you completed the quest and received an account bound reward certificate. Then each Doom reward cost x number of certificates... maybe the scholars halo is 20 certificates, and is still account bound.
Scripting Doom for profit would be utterly pointless. The average player who wanted a Doom reward would be able to get one with a known amount of work without relying on RNG that just plain hates some people.
Let's take one of the top end Doom rewards for example:
Scholars Halo... what if the Doom gauntlet was a quest you accepted at the start of each run. If you got looting rights in each of the rooms and on a dark father you completed the quest and received an account bound reward certificate. Then each Doom reward cost x number of certificates... maybe the scholars halo is 20 certificates, and is still account bound.
Scripting Doom for profit would be utterly pointless. The average player who wanted a Doom reward would be able to get one with a known amount of work without relying on RNG that just plain hates some people.
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I would be all for making more items account bound, it's very much the norm in a lot of other games, even character bound items are common.
But it seems that even requests to make more items shard bound are met with a resounding 'no'! What hope is there of even more extreme measures? It seems that the only people who gain currently are the third party sites and the shard jumpers, they must make up a big part of the game population now if their accounts are worth more than the so-called 'honest' players.
But it seems that even requests to make more items shard bound are met with a resounding 'no'! What hope is there of even more extreme measures? It seems that the only people who gain currently are the third party sites and the shard jumpers, they must make up a big part of the game population now if their accounts are worth more than the so-called 'honest' players.
And there we are again. Big titles with hundreds of developers can't stop scripting, but half a dozen people on Stratics can.
Container IDs need to be known to the client, how should the client otherwise signal to the server which of the dozen bags in house you want to open?
Changing encryption keys once a week? Wow, sounds really hard to automate some static program analysis to get hold of the new keys.
Keep dreaming that it's that easy. The only reason 3rd party programs don't do auto-analysis of the client executable is because it is a waste of time, when the Devs hardly change client internals. As soon as devs start changing client internals, 3rd party programs add code to run auto-analysis before client startup and we go back to square one.
The solution here is not of technical nature, it's just to enforce the ToS instead of turning a blind eye to everything.
Container IDs need to be known to the client, how should the client otherwise signal to the server which of the dozen bags in house you want to open?
Changing encryption keys once a week? Wow, sounds really hard to automate some static program analysis to get hold of the new keys.
Keep dreaming that it's that easy. The only reason 3rd party programs don't do auto-analysis of the client executable is because it is a waste of time, when the Devs hardly change client internals. As soon as devs start changing client internals, 3rd party programs add code to run auto-analysis before client startup and we go back to square one.
The solution here is not of technical nature, it's just to enforce the ToS instead of turning a blind eye to everything.
With what staff should they do this?
I don't think it would even require account bound at this stage just shard bound and the incentive is greatly diminished and the cheats concentrated on a couple of shards with the highest populations and thus far easier for a limited staff to police.
I don't know. But starting an technical arms race against the cheaters is not running by itself as well.
It's been countless times people reported on scripters, like the story of that Oceania Blackthorn guy. Apparently there was not a single staff GM to jail him? Hmmmm....
"I better don't touch that stuff, my neighbour just lost his account for scripting" is a thought nobody in UO had for years.