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Funny to see all the Alchy/Parry/Mages complain of the Alchemy change. 
I would even like to see Parry in the list. With that there would be some nerf in archers/throwers damage/swing needed, which will hardly be done, but would open a lot of mage templare without parry. Maybe everyone should first test all those changes in a whole to see if it opens new op templates or nerf some templates too much, before complaining instantly.
I would even like to see Parry in the list. With that there would be some nerf in archers/throwers damage/swing needed, which will hardly be done, but would open a lot of mage templare without parry. Maybe everyone should first test all those changes in a whole to see if it opens new op templates or nerf some templates too much, before complaining instantly. Right, at 120/120. I'd like to see it where at maybe 60/60 it lowers it 5, so if you curse and corpse on a necro mage with 60 necro, you could still achieve the -15 without throwing in 480 skill points..
That would not be "stacking"
Ahh I see what you mean...
since a 60/60 necro/SS is -5 it should "stack" so that Curse (-10) + the corpse (-5) should = -15 fire/poson.
I don't really see that as necessary tbh.
Meh, i think it would help with template diversity and not be overpowered. 120/120 necro/spirit speak is still a huge hit to skills to get that bonus. Really not worth it. I have played a lot of necro mages over the years and NEVER had 120 necro/spirit speak on any of them.
Yea, I never went 120/120 either.... I've gone 60-100/120 necro/SS... (I still do) but at the same time I don't use necro because of corpse skin... It's just useful without Magery>Curse as mandatory to lower resistances now.
personally I'd rather see all non-focus specs get 20% SDI cap (up from 15%) for pvp, instead of corpse skin affecting cap resistances for non-focus specs, just to narrow the gap a little between focus/non-focus spec. even though you get more spells by having other casting schools, those spells take time to cast and are interruptible... some take certain situations to be used.
either way though, at least the few things that were OP enough to make a lot of templates obsolete are now toned down... some may be toned a little much (Moving shot)... everything else I'm very happy with. especially the Tactics & Alchemy changes.
I seriously don't see how you could be happy about the tactics "changes" given how little it will do to free up the skill slot and open up more templates. Like Virem said, I cannot think of template that will utilize that 90-120 skill points in an effective way. No dexxer template (deathstrikers included) should be removing tactics from their template given this change, and I can't think of a viable mage template that really improves with it either. All they have to do is un-tie tactics from special cost reduction (which has never been linked until now) and then you would legitimately open up a lot of builds for all types of characters.
I'm happy with it just because templates will be possible again without it... the LMC -combat nerf (IMO) is not necessary, but It's not going to be the end-all to stop me from dropping tactics on some templates I have.
It really depends on how well you do as far as conserving mana, unfortunately, alot of people "spam" specials near endlessly... it's going to affect them much much more than it'll affect me.... the 300.0 combat bonus is -10 mana off a weapon specials "base" cost. factor in 40 lmc = 6 more mana 12 on successive specials...
If they just do away with the combat bonus all together and lower mana costs of all specials by 5-10 (depending on special) I'd be ok with that too, the important thing to me is that you don't need "Tactics" to use weapon specials... I don't care what the mana costs are because most of the characters I play, don't have the combat bonus anyway.
And think how many more options would be open across all templates if the special mana cost reduction wasn't shoehorned into this change.
My thoughts on the moving shot update:
making moving shot always physical is enough of a nerf. No increased mana cost or hit chance penalty necessary. Adding all 3 suggested changes is way too much!
making moving shot always physical is enough of a nerf. No increased mana cost or hit chance penalty necessary. Adding all 3 suggested changes is way too much!
I feel like thats a different beast all together. I haven't used corpse skin in many, many years. But, if they want to make it viable AND worthwhile- they should not have the 120/120 skill. It should stack but the cap should be 55, not 45.
Looks like you didnt read the thread cause those changes were mentioned in that thread. People ask for getting those changes to TC for testing, devs do it and say they will be on TC for a while and first thing people do is complaining about nerfs that MIGHT be coming for their template. Give it some time to be tested and then lets do some constructive arguing.
Honestly, I'd be ok with a fixed reduction of -15 w/out stacking. Real skill for both shouldn't factor in to it - are there any necro templates that would go with less than 120 Spirit speak? If it's just tied to SS (well, 60/120 since 100% chance to cast), and has a guaranteed effect on resists, I'm not seeing a problem.
Can you explain to me how this would "Create more templates"? It would make it easier to use specials, not change anything other than someone would have to not time their toggle anymore. Just curious of your logic. Or do you just mean people would play them more because they don't like to have to hit an extra button after casting a spell and that somehow means it is "creating more templates"?
I don't ever use 120 spirit speak on mine. Every skill point saved is valuable to me.
What is the best parry scribe template?
It wouldn't create more templates, just Makes it easier to get higher damage bursts.
I have a parry Mage with alchemy, scribe and wrestling.
Seems to work well but you have to have some pretty sick jewelry.
Which is my only char with alchemy actually
I see your point but I think we would have a more variety of mages running out utilizing fencing, swords, and macing through out the game, and not the same limited templates. People would for the most part could choose to play a temp that was an advantage such as dp/mage or bone harvy scribe, or bushido mage. Those template advantages have kind of disappeared since the change many moons ago. However, I could be completely misguided and the change would add nothing to the game and 90% of mages would still use a parry template.
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That was more because of the "Tactics change"... spec-toggling/casting is more a quality of life change to those who utilize casting & weapon-based skills.
Only if people feel like they don't "Need" parry to play, because regardless of what happens to Alchemy... no one will pvp without potions. (at least most of them won't)
Discussing Balance
Nothing is concluded yet, hence the extremely early testing period. I would encourage you to head over to TC1 and give Bleak your feedback and/or feel free to email
Pwned
Now.. you take out focus spec NO ONE would play a pure. See the issue here
If you look at the alchemy change in isolation, it looks really bad. If you look at it with the other changes, maybe their idea was that the nerf to moving shot would allow more mages to get by without parry, and the change to tactics would open up some battle mage temps for mages. Only mages really benefit from both of these changes. Therefore, they needed to take something away, hence the alchemy change. Not sure that this is really going to work out as pure mage temps seem more limited now.
not really.
I don't really see how it hurts the game if no one is playing a pure mage. I thought the entire concept of balance was to make more templates viable. Wouldn't your template still be superior defensively while sacrificing some damage output?
Moving shot nerf - needed
Conflag pot nerf - needed
We have been through this with tactics before
Making necro viable again - needed
Mysticism buff - mystic is already nasty
What you should nerf?
Wrestle, parry, chiv
Conflag pot nerf - needed
We have been through this with tactics before
Making necro viable again - needed
Mysticism buff - mystic is already nasty
What you should nerf?
Wrestle, parry, chiv
Another suggestion: get rid of all the ilsh spawns. Fel fighting seems pretty confined just to yew for the most part. Most people aren't red anymore cause of town buffs and vvv. How dead are you devs trying to make pvp?
And why should wrestle be nerfed? So you can land your stealth dismounts more often?
actually, it's pretty dead NOW. Do you even know why the pvp in UO is dead, outside of a few guilds? Here's one hint: The complete lack of variety in templates and the brokenness of some skills. There are other reasons, but I'll leave it at one ****storm causing statement for now.
I'd say do not put Alchemy on the SDI restrictions list for pures, but remove the ability to use a spell focused sash for pure mages. As their damage output is high enough already.
Alchemy is very much a sub skill, its 100 points taken up for not a huge reward. Skills that go on the pure restriction list are supposed to be MAJOR skills, that would make having 30SDI with them kinds of skills totally overpowered and unbalanced. Seeing as its only a 100 point subskill and NON PURE mages can have alchemy and benefit from the full range of their other skills, i fail to see the reasoning behind this change? Leave it as it is.
Honestly, just get rid of supernova pots somehow. No one had much issue with an alchy mage with exp and conflagration pots. It was fun and useful but not really op. Supernova pots are the issue.
Mainly because people use them like a spell trigger bombard, to finish off with a free untimed big damage killshot
Mainly because people use them like a spell trigger bombard, to finish off with a free untimed big damage killshot
Alchemy doesn't need to go on the "Focus spec" break list, only if Supernova potions get capped at like 10-15 damage. 20-27 is too much for something you cannot avoid and cannot interrupt.
I'll even use my favorite comparison...
Supernova = 100.0 Alchemy = 20-27 damage (70s/cursed)... 2 minute cooldown. no cast time. can hit mutliple targets, and does not split damage between targets.
Bombard>Trigger = 120 mystic & 120.0 focus/imbuing (240.0) = 21-24 damage (regardless of curse) ... 5 minute cooldown + cast time of re-trigger, single target, small chance to stun for 1 second (based on resisting spells of your target).
Besides, the idea that a necro-alchey-mage could make supernovas hit for 32 damage at 55 fire resistance (from corpse) with potentially increasing that again with evil omen... should be roughly ~40 damage... (I'll test it to verify the omen+ corpse sometime today.)
Edit: Supernovas do 47-48 damage to someone that's Corpse skinned + omened (at -15 (55) fire resist) with 100.0 alchemy & 50% EP on the nova user. - Way too much damage.
I'll even use my favorite comparison...
Supernova = 100.0 Alchemy = 20-27 damage (70s/cursed)... 2 minute cooldown. no cast time. can hit mutliple targets, and does not split damage between targets.
Bombard>Trigger = 120 mystic & 120.0 focus/imbuing (240.0) = 21-24 damage (regardless of curse) ... 5 minute cooldown + cast time of re-trigger, single target, small chance to stun for 1 second (based on resisting spells of your target).
Besides, the idea that a necro-alchey-mage could make supernovas hit for 32 damage at 55 fire resistance (from corpse) with potentially increasing that again with evil omen... should be roughly ~40 damage... (I'll test it to verify the omen+ corpse sometime today.)
Edit: Supernovas do 47-48 damage to someone that's Corpse skinned + omened (at -15 (55) fire resist) with 100.0 alchemy & 50% EP on the nova user. - Way too much damage.
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Where do you see these Necro Alchy mages running around? That template while sure they could deal a lot of damage they have zero survive ability in fights. I think concentrating on the issues of these changes is more important than thinking up scenarios for a character that would have zero affect in any fight.
You don't, but you will if "focus spec" breaks with alchemy, because it's the only way to compensate the loss of 15% sdi =X
hence
But playing a character that has no survive ability isn't giving you the opportunity to take advantage of such damage.
Alright, let's take a look at the driving factors in the current meta. Archery and parry. It's pretty obvious that archery is so strong that it dictates the necessity of parry on the majority of mages. So, we've reached the point where it's pretty much unanimously agreed that we should nerf moving shot. That's fine and all, but it doesn't fix the other side of the equation, which is the strength of parry in an era of PvP that allows you to have incredible offense as a focused mage, but also incredible defense with the addition of parry and sometimes even healing.
So, we peel off the layer known as archery, and we're facing the issue of parry. What does parry do exactly to affect the meta? Well, if you play a focused parry mage, you're not lacking in offensive capability, but you almost completely invalidate melee dexers and weapon skill mages, while also being the only mage template that can deal with archery. So, why would anyone play a weapon skill mage that has no significant advantage over parry mages and has a good chance to get destroyed by archers. You don't, and that results in the never ending cycle of parry mages and archers. However, with the nerfing of moving shot, it does start to allow some outplayability for weapon skill mages vs them, but it doesn't really give an incentive to play them because they'll be pretty equal offensively to someone who has insane defense(focus mages).
So, we can ascertain that even though archery is a driving point in the existence of so many parry mage templates, they're both choking out diversity. What do we do though?
I would suggest:
1. Nerfing moving shot to only physical damage. (100% necessary)
2. Remove saving throws. Additionally, cut splintering weapon 'walk' duration in half.
3. Increase SDI cap for non-focused templates to 20. (Necro/mystic/magery)
4. Remove the 10% SDI bonus to mysticism from inscription. (mystic is going to be quite strong with SDI now affecting spell plague)
5. Add parry to the list of disqualifying skills for focused mages.
- This will allow for focused mages to play scribe + alchy for an incredibly strong offense, but insane defense will no longer accompany it.
6. Remove tactics requirement, but DO NOT include the disqualification from LMC bonus.
7. Allow corpse skin to debuff to 55 fire/poison as long as you have 100+ in necro and spirit speak. Allow jewelry to contribute to this cap. (120 is too much)
8. Increase the bonus damage of concussion for all melee weapons from 10 up to 15. (Lance is currently the only weapon in game that has +15) This will give more value to tactics as a skill, despite removing the requirement for specials. Attaining a certain damage increase + concussion will circumstantially yield a slightly higher damage special than armor ignore, which is the current standard special move for dealing raw damage in most scenarios. Concussion is essentially useless these days and could use this small buff. Crossbows do not need this.
9. Nerf super novas by ~7 damage. 10 + 1 for each 10 points of alchemy. 100 alchemy = 20 damage.
10. Tone down the top end damage bonus of spell focusing sashes.
Keep in mind, that many of these changes are codependent.
Hopefully @Kyronix and @Bleak can see the light and make this game fun again.
So, we peel off the layer known as archery, and we're facing the issue of parry. What does parry do exactly to affect the meta? Well, if you play a focused parry mage, you're not lacking in offensive capability, but you almost completely invalidate melee dexers and weapon skill mages, while also being the only mage template that can deal with archery. So, why would anyone play a weapon skill mage that has no significant advantage over parry mages and has a good chance to get destroyed by archers. You don't, and that results in the never ending cycle of parry mages and archers. However, with the nerfing of moving shot, it does start to allow some outplayability for weapon skill mages vs them, but it doesn't really give an incentive to play them because they'll be pretty equal offensively to someone who has insane defense(focus mages).
So, we can ascertain that even though archery is a driving point in the existence of so many parry mage templates, they're both choking out diversity. What do we do though?
I would suggest:
1. Nerfing moving shot to only physical damage. (100% necessary)
2. Remove saving throws. Additionally, cut splintering weapon 'walk' duration in half.
3. Increase SDI cap for non-focused templates to 20. (Necro/mystic/magery)
4. Remove the 10% SDI bonus to mysticism from inscription. (mystic is going to be quite strong with SDI now affecting spell plague)
5. Add parry to the list of disqualifying skills for focused mages.
- This will allow for focused mages to play scribe + alchy for an incredibly strong offense, but insane defense will no longer accompany it.
6. Remove tactics requirement, but DO NOT include the disqualification from LMC bonus.
7. Allow corpse skin to debuff to 55 fire/poison as long as you have 100+ in necro and spirit speak. Allow jewelry to contribute to this cap. (120 is too much)
8. Increase the bonus damage of concussion for all melee weapons from 10 up to 15. (Lance is currently the only weapon in game that has +15) This will give more value to tactics as a skill, despite removing the requirement for specials. Attaining a certain damage increase + concussion will circumstantially yield a slightly higher damage special than armor ignore, which is the current standard special move for dealing raw damage in most scenarios. Concussion is essentially useless these days and could use this small buff. Crossbows do not need this.
9. Nerf super novas by ~7 damage. 10 + 1 for each 10 points of alchemy. 100 alchemy = 20 damage.
10. Tone down the top end damage bonus of spell focusing sashes.
Keep in mind, that many of these changes are codependent.
Hopefully @Kyronix and @Bleak can see the light and make this game fun again.
Pure mages don't have superior defense in the least.
No survive-ability ? Oh, you mean because there's no room for Parry? lol if the moving shot changes stay as physical damage, you won't need parry anymore, you'd actually be better off running no parry and using a reflect physical suit... I said something to that effect when some of you guys were on TC with Bleak.
This is why I don't think people are going to drop parry even if archers get nerfed into the ground Parry reduces interruptions from all weapon-based attacks by up to 35% (max parry chance for a parry-mage)
which allows mages to kill dexers much faster because of fewer interruptions.
I'm going RPD suit if that physical damage change goes in. (I don't want it to do physical damage.) but hey, I don't run parry anyway. all bonus to me.... also, I believe the "Physical Damage" portion of the moving shot nerf was suggested by Virem.
If you guys had bothered to test moving shot while you were on test, the hit chance penalty doesn't even seem to exist (if it does, it's hard to notice it)... but the physical damage part is very easy to notice.
especially if you're used to what your guys do. Curse = 2 archers = virems moving shot "Broken Arrows" video....
Applying a -10-20% damage penalty to moving shot would be much better than making it hit as physical damage all the time... at least there would be a reason to use elemental damage bows as Armor ignore has no effect whatsoever on resistances OR RPD.
All that has to be done is fix the alchemy calculation and then it wont matter if its on the focus spec or not. I posted this in the other thread about the alchemy change. It will fix the problem across all templates and not just mages. There should be no free consumable that has the ability to game change a fight. Its nonsense.
You and your guildmate need to get on the same page. Literally the post above your's he disagrees.
It still sounds like an easier solution to just remove the focus spec. Wouldn't you be better off just giving inscription a boost to 20% SDI.
Regardless you never did answer why the game needs something classified as a pure mage.