What the new publish has taught me...

[Silent Singer]

So after checking out the new publish notes and TC1, I've learned 2 things:

1. I've got to learn how to script BODs. Because there is no effing way I'm going to do 800 BODs to "bank" enough points for one clothing bless deed. Just when I thought the game had reached the limit of grindiness....

2. The person doing this new art hasn't been listening since the sundials, and at this point I see no reason to expect different. Bad art is bad, and if everyone pointing this out hasn't effected change, nothing is going to make a difference.

Last Easter I gave away the Siege EM drop because the art was really really atrocious. I've ignored the deco done in that off angle style since then. But wow, this train isn't gonna stop. I'm almost glad they didn't add new content (actual content, like mobs, bosses, arties) becausewith each release the disparity between old and new styles grows larger. The old art is one of the things that I love about UO. I'm running out of those things though. Quickly.

 

[Uriah Heep]

It gets hard to find a reason to log in. Other than the few friends I ahve left that still play, I'd cancel out and just forget it...

And once again they proved they don't listen, we get what they want us to have, what they want to play with.

 

[Lord Frodo]

1. I've got to learn how to script BODs. Because there is no effing way I'm going to do 800 BODs to "bank" enough points for one clothing bless deed. Just when I thought the game had reached the limit of grindiness....

So I guess you have never heard of bribing.

 

[CovenantX]

It's not as bad as it looks. Pub 95 bod reward system is actually better than the older system... But yes, if there isn't some quality of life changes that still need to be made to Bods, it's just something scripters will use and legitimate players probably won't touch it.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Where are all these BOD scripters at? When is the last time anyone seen a bunch of people logging in Luna to collect BODs? I just get the idea that no matter what the DEVs do people are just gonna whine. I love this because I will be able to get Horned Runic Kits for every LBOD that gets them and not get Tailor 120s

 

[Merlin]

Publish 95 looks good to me. You will never be able to make everyone happy. People who complain about art in what is essentially a 20 year old 2-D game are going to be barking up that tree for a long time.

I'm not much of a BoD guy, except in the few cases I really needed a reward that I couldn't find on vendor search, but I don't think high end rewards should be something you can just do in an hour. It might be a little "grindy", but I'm just as equally opposed to instant gratification too. Rewards need to be worth the effort.

 

[BeaIank]

Publish 95 looks good to me. You will never be able to make everyone happy. People who complain about art in what is essentially a 20 year old 2-D game are going to be barking up that tree for a long time.

I'm not much of a BoD guy, except in the few cases I really needed a reward that I couldn't find on vendor search, but I don't think high end rewards should be something you can just do in an hour. It might be a little "grindy", but I'm just as equally opposed to instant gratification too. Rewards need to be worth the effort.

We are in agreement that high end rewards should require effort.
But there was a much better way to implement that than what they have done. They should have used a geometric progression formula for the reward prices and bod values.
Then they could allow us to bank 50%, heck, even 100% of the value of the bod we turned in.
Sure, if someone banked a large bod, they would be able to pick a lot of low end rewards, but that is a very fine compromise. Turn in a large bod, burn the points on lower end rewards to save time.

They way they approached this problem wasn't the best one, sadly.
I do like what they have done with most of pub 95, save for this whole point banking thing.

 

[Lord Frodo]

It's not as bad as it looks. Pub 95 bod reward system is actually better than the older system...

%200 agree

But yes, if there isn't some quality of life changes that still need to be made to Bods, it's just something scripters will use and legitimate players probably won't touch it.

I have been doing BODs from day one and remember BOTs logging at Luna non stop and being able to find BODs on every shard but when is the last time you saw BOD collecting BOTs or been able to find BOD Vendors the last couple of years? This new loot system has really hurt the Crafters. Look at all the auctions going on with tons of high end loot. IMHO there is little to no way Crafters can keep up with this type of loot unless UO up our crafting ability in some way.

 

[Lord Frodo]

We are in agreement that high end rewards should require effort.
But there was a much better way to implement that than what they have done. They should have used a geometric progression formula for the reward prices and bod values.
Then they could allow us to bank 50%, heck, even 100% of the value of the bod we turned in.
Sure, if someone banked a large bod, they would be able to pick a lot of low end rewards, but that is a very fine compromise. Turn in a large bod, burn the points on lower end rewards to save time.

They way they approached this problem wasn't the best one, sadly.
I do like what they have done with most of pub 95, save for this whole point banking thing.

Banking %50 or even %100 will %200 bring back the large BOD Scripters and KILL the honest players.

 

[BeaIank]

Banking %50 or even %100 will %200 bring back the large BOD Scripters and KILL the honest players.

We need to consider that for people to cheat and script like that, there has to be a monetary gain.
There isn't much of that with the high end bod rewards. For reforging, you usually want middle end runic tools so you can have the minimal control over the single property you want to reforge.
The randomness in the reforging system makes using high end runics to make good, useful pieces of armour nigh impossible, lowering the value of higher end runics.

 

[Ender]

Banking %50 or even %100 will %200 bring back the large BOD Scripters and KILL the honest players.

Yeah because those honest players are definitely gonna be able to bank a bunch of points now, huh

 

[CovenantX]

%200 agree
I have been doing BODs from day one and remember BOTs logging at Luna non stop and being able to find BODs on every shard but when is the last time you saw BOD collecting BOTs or been able to find BOD Vendors the last couple of years? This new loot system has really hurt the Crafters. Look at all the auctions going on with tons of high end loot. IMHO there is little to no way Crafters can keep up with this type of loot unless UO up our crafting ability in some way.

Well you don't see bod "collecting" bots, much if at all anymore... but who fills bods by hand? If no one's selling PoF, I just xfer shield to Atl to buy Pof just to avoid doing bods.
That's my problem with bods which existed before and will still exist after publish 95, unless the devs add things that make it less tedious for legitimate players. It's still pretty much going to be a "script-only" aspect of the game.

I'm not looking for an "easy button" Bods never have been "hard' to do, it's the constant clicking, refilling your packs resources when you run out while crafting materials... It's all the tedium very annoying little things is why I (and I assume most people) always avoid bods.

 

[Lord Frodo]

We need to consider that for people to cheat and script like that, there has to be a monetary gain.
There isn't much of that with the high end bod rewards. For reforging, you usually want middle end runic tools so you can have the minimal control over the single property you want to reforge.
The randomness in the reforging system makes using high end runics to make good, useful pieces of armour nigh impossible, lowering the value of higher end runics.

So then the Scripters would do what you are saying and destroy anything of value for the honest player. Scripters will go for what ever sells the most just like honest players do.

 

[Grazz't1970]

What a bunch of nerds!!!





Trolled again!!!!

 

[Lord Frodo]

Yeah because those honest players are definitely gonna be able to bank a bunch of points now, huh

And what, you want all the points to be bankable to bring back the scripters? It is called balancing the point system to where it does not hurt the honest player.

 

[BeaIank]

So then the Scripters would do what you are saying and destroy anything of value for the honest player. Scripters will go for what ever sells the most just like honest players do.

Wouldn't work too well for them if the honest players could say, turn a large 20 ex val bod and get 20 pof or 10 copper runic hammers, for example. It would give honest players a fast way to compete.
Scripting would still happen, but would be less so because the monetary gain from it would be much smaller.

Addressing the scripting problem requires other kinds of actions from the developers. More drastic measures, even.

 

[Razz]

Publish 95 looks good to me. You will never be able to make everyone happy. People who complain about art in what is essentially a 20 year old 2-D game are going to be barking up that tree for a long time.

I agree Merlin but the OP has a point. It's not like the request is to redo any of the old art. This is newly created art work. Just take a moment and get the perspective right. I don't see how that's such a huge request or undertaking.

 

[Ender]

And what, you want all the points to be bankable to bring back the scripters? It is called balancing the point system to where it does not hurt the honest player.

All this does is hurt the honest player.

 

[Lord Frodo]

All this does is hurt the honest player.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Wouldn't work too well for them if the honest players could say, turn a large 20 ex val bod and get 20 pof or 10 copper runic hammers, for example. It would give honest players a fast way to compete.
Scripting would still happen, but would be less so because the monetary gain from it would be much smaller.

Addressing the scripting problem requires other kinds of actions from the developers. More drastic measures, even.

It would work the same for Scripters and Non Scripters the only difference is the Scripters can gathers the resources and BODs a lot faster than the honest player so the honest player loses.

 

[BeaIank]

It would work the same for Scripters and Non Scripters the only difference is the Scripters can gathers the resources and BODs a lot faster than the honest player so the honest player loses.

Except that they can't flood the market or the margin they will be making will decrease rapidly.
And with the resource maps that were added to the reward system (which an honest player would also be able to claim in reasonable numbers with the proposed changes), the player would be able to compete a bit.
Certainly, it is not the perfect solution for scripting, but at our current state, I am not sure there is one...

I understand your frustration, though. With a system like this, and in a game were scripters suffer little to no consequences, there is no winning, sadly.

 

[Dot_Warner]

The solution to combat the major script programs has been laid out for the devs multiple times. They obviously have zero interest in actually addressing the problem or they would have implemented it by now.

 

[MalagAste]

It gets hard to find a reason to log in. Other than the few friends I ahve left that still play, I'd cancel out and just forget it...

And once again they proved they don't listen, we get what they want us to have, what they want to play with.

Harder and Harder every day... and the more and more I see this hideous artwork the more disgusted I become. With odd angles and the fact that much of it is in GIANT proportions to the world its just disgusting.

Everything is in giant proportions... the clothes look FAT on your character... those that do "fit" don't line up properly on the avatar in-game so it forever looks like your walking out of your clothes...

I could go on and on about the art and the fact that the Kings collection tables don't sit properly in the tiles so you can't put a chair anywhere NEAR the proper places around the table without it looking ridiculous...

But what do I know?

Hey I'm no art Major but you know art was my favorite subject in school... always enjoyed it... and even I know that you can't just block on the outfit and not put any textures on it... no wrinkles no shading... Everything is FLAT... certainly it's a 2d world but that doesn't mean it has to LOOK flat.

Flat fuzzy out of focus, without texture... horrifyingly out of perspective with the rest of the game.... and they don't care.

And more and more about stuff... and grinding endless hours away in a ceaseless cycle... with no meaning and no fun. I am holding out for the pet revamp but I don't know if I'll make it that long... probably another year from now... 20th anniversary... but I am fairly certain that the pet revamp will just be another disappointment.

And any fool who thinks that having tons of vendors on your house doesn't cause lag has never been to Luna... As we all KNOW that it does.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Well you don't see bod "collecting" bots, much if at all anymore... but who fills bods by hand? If no one's selling PoF, I just xfer shield to Atl to buy Pof just to avoid doing bods.
That's my problem with bods which existed before and will still exist after publish 95, unless the devs add things that make it less tedious for legitimate players. It's still pretty much going to be a "script-only" aspect of the game.

I'm not looking for an "easy button" Bods never have been "hard' to do, it's the constant clicking, refilling your packs resources when you run out while crafting materials... It's all the tedium very annoying little things is why I (and I assume most people) always avoid bods.

I understand what you are saying now. I do all my BODs on Baja using UOA to fill them, yes I made a macro for every smith/tailor BOD and from what I understand the EC can also do this. I would love a container that would do it for me. I sell some of my stuff on smaller shards but the vast majority of sells are on Atl.

 

[Lord Frodo]

And any fool who thinks that having tons of vendors on your house doesn't cause lag has never been to Luna... As we all KNOW that it does.

SOLUTION, GET OUT OF LUNA. PROBLEM SOLVED

 

[Ender]

Okay fine. It doesn't hurt them any more than the current crap system.

It sure as hell doesn't help at all though, and seems like a complete waste of time to code it.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Okay fine. It doesn't hurt them any more than the current crap system.

It sure as hell doesn't help at all though, and seems like a complete waste of time to code it.

The new system is %200 better because we can get EXACTLY the reward we want with out that %10 BS upgrade kicking in and when/if they come up with a balanced point system that does not encourage mass scripting again then it will be %1000 better.

 

[Fridgster]

Wouldn't work too well for them if the honest players could say, turn a large 20 ex val bod and get 20 pof or 10 copper runic hammers, for example. It would give honest players a fast way to compete.
Scripting would still happen, but would be less so because the monetary gain from it would be much smaller.

Addressing the scripting problem requires other kinds of actions from the developers. More drastic measures, even.

I actually don't think this is an unreasonable request. It actually makes alot of sense.

 

[petemage]

2. The person doing this new art hasn't been listening since the sundials, and at this point I see no reason to expect different. Bad art is bad, and if everyone pointing this out hasn't effected change, nothing is going to make a difference.

Last Easter I gave away the Siege EM drop because the art was really really atrocious. I've ignored the deco done in that off angle style since then. But wow, this train isn't gonna stop. I'm almost glad they didn't add new content (actual content, like mobs, bosses, arties) becausewith each release the disparity between old and new styles grows larger. The old art is one of the things that I love about UO. I'm running out of those things though. Quickly.

It's really not Mesanna's style to follow up with those issues. She apparently told the art guy the feedback once and got told the feedback is wrong. She bought it and told us all new art will be in that style. You really can't expect the game producer to sort such things out, can't you?

 

[Uvtha]

People who complain about art in what is essentially a 20 year old 2-D game are going to be barking up that tree for a long time.

Why? There are PLENTY of people capable of making beautiful art that matches UO's retro aesthetic. The current artist clearly makes little effort to do so. It's not that the art is BAD, it's just inappropriate matched to the aesthetic.

 

[Parthis]

Okay, re the comments about scripters and this, The honest player cannot compete with scripters in anything thats the whole point of scripting is myunderstanding. You can do it 24/7, So now lets look at a system where lets say you bank 75% of all the points, A scripter will run lets say 5 cilents, filling a bod and getting a new one every 5 minutes at a slow run.... Therefore, How will an honest player compete with that? I think you can't just cater to the honest player, you need to change the game mechincs so scripting is frowned upon and punishable. That would be my solution rather than just talking about this banking. You guys are addressing a smaller issue when there isa larger one at hand

 

[Uvtha]

It's really not Mesanna's style to follow up with those issues. She apparently told the art guy the feedback once and got told the feedback is wrong. She bought it and told us all new art will be in that style. You really can't expect the game producer to sort such things out, can't you?

I still don't get the justification for it. YES, it's true the oblique view they use and we all hate is technically the correct one, but they are choosing to ignore the purposeful design choices made by the original art team, (the individuals who shaped the aesthetics of the game) as well as the years and years of post release art that adhered to that mixed oblique/perspective approach.

In a vacuum it's right, but they aren't in a vacuum. When you look at the game world as a whole rather than just the floor tiles you can see that ALL item art is perspective. All of it. That aesthetic was quite clearly intentional and should absolutly be adhered to. The fact that they either a) don't compare new art to old art to see if it fits, or b) do compare it and don't care, irritates the everloving **** out of me as an amateur artist, and a lover of the classic game art style.

There is really no excuse for it. Not only does it deviate from the style... EVERYONE HATES IT. Just... why be so goddamn stubborn about it???

 

[petemage]

There is really no excuse for it. Not only does it deviate from the style... EVERYONE HATES IT. Just... why be so goddamn stubborn about it???

My theory of choice is that the art person is working 95% of the time on other projects and is rolling his eyes every time Mesanna comes around with a request for UO art. Maybe its even a personal thing. Who knows

 

[Flagg]

Could somebody post some screenies of this new art?

Speaking of the questionable art style, I always get a severe allergy when they flirt with scifi or steampunk. It just doesn't sit well in world of UO. Good looking, honest pure simple high fantasy themes well executed any day over some steam machines and lasors.

 

[Enziet]

When it comes to art in UO I look back at Ultima. Does this fit into the story we've all known so far? Would this really work? Could it be feasible for future content of Ultima if the events of Ultima 7 didn't happen yet? So far yes and no. But what do you expect for a game that 20 years old. Can't keep the same image for 20 years. Something has to change.

 

[Silent Singer]

When it comes to art in UO I look back at Ultima. Does this fit into the story we've all known so far? Would this really work? Could it be feasible for future content of Ultima if the events of Ultima 7 didn't happen yet? So far yes and no. But what do you expect for a game that 20 years old. Can't keep the same image for 20 years. Something has to change.

I think you are right. Something does have to change. I have to stop subscribing and move on to other games. As BB says, the thrill is gone.

 

[Fridgster]

I think you are right. Something does have to change. I have to stop subscribing and move on to other games. As BB says, the thrill is gone.

Can I have your stuff?

 

[Uriah Heep]

If the art is the problem, well, good luck. Remember not too long ago we got a newsletter or something that had all kinds of pictures and angles and calculations in it explaining why the NEW art of the last 4-5 years is the right art for this game, and how the art since the game begin up to that point was all wrong...
I think that was a hint that the art isn't gonna get any better. just sayin'...

 

[MalagAste]

It's fine as long as you don't use any of the new crap and just toss it in the trash... don't waste any time or energy on doing the things to get the new god awful art... or items... if it's useful hide it in a box or behind something...

IMO it's just more stuff I WON'T be doing in-game. Why bother? Don't want the reward it's hideously ugly.

Now I'll say that the floor tile we'll be able to buy from the store is REALLY pretty... and he did a good job IF it weren't for the fact that it's so totally out of perspective with the rest of the circular floor items in game... so if you have anything near it in the proper UO perspective it'll look all weird and out of place. So again.... not going to waste my dime on that.

And the more and more that is put out like that the less and less we do in game and the more I keep considering why am I still playing??? Paying???

Anyway IMO if he can't get it together and make proper art for the client FIRE HIM. Don't let him give you a cop out Mesanna... tell him to do it right or forget it... there are thousands of artists out there who would love a job. But before you hire another one give them a test to see if they can match the quality of art already in the game. If they can and can do it quickly and such... HIRE them. But don't put up with excuses. Because quite honestly there is NO excuse for not at least attempting to match what's already in game.

 

[Victim of Siege]

I think you are right. Something does have to change. I have to stop subscribing and move on to other games. As BB says, the thrill is gone.

 

[Uvtha]

If the art is the problem, well, good luck. Remember not too long ago we got a newsletter or something that had all kinds of pictures and angles and calculations in it explaining why the NEW art of the last 4-5 years is the right art for this game, and how the art since the game begin up to that point was all wrong...
I think that was a hint that the art isn't gonna get any better. just sayin'...

It's obviously not changing, but like I argued above, it's only correct if you only look at the floor tiles and ignore the item art. A mixed perspective was clearly an intentional choice. Again, it's mind boggling that they choose being consistent to the oblique view of the tiles over giving players what they want, which is item art in perspective.

 

[arkiu]

The artwork and perspective mismatches between old and new have truly scarred this game terribly. I almost quit UO the day I read that one newsletter that tried to convince me the perspectives of the new art were consistent with the old. It was more sad than it was offensive.

Not even bashing the artist - his or her artwork may be good in its own way. Just doesnt belong in UO.

 

[Dot_Warner]

Honestly, the old circular floor add-ons have always irked me. We see a SE edge that simply shouldn't be possible, and the design is skewed to much. It's very apparent on the abattoir.

"Flat" objects shouldn't have an edge or a slant.

Taller objects are a completely different, mixed-perspective story... And I'm sorry, but the new trees are just god-awful misshapen lumps of fugly. The person who signed off on malformed Christmas trees should hang their heads in shame.

 

[DifferenceDifference]

I didn't read everything in this thread. But I learned from some posts here that everything is fine with UO and with Publish 95 in particular.
Well, great news!

The game is... more fun now?