Discussing Balance

[Merus]

I don't get the notion that if we tweak archery we need to nerf parry.

It is the imbalance of combat weapons (mainly archery) that has driven any viable mage template to require parry. It seems to me that the goal would be to restore the balance so that mage templates don't require parry. If that happens, there will be fewer parry mages to worry about.

Leave parry alone and focus on restoring the offensive balance.

 

[Lythos-]

Yea I'm really not a fan of the 2-tile thing either, mostly because of the other potential imbalances it could cause not just in pvp, but other aspects as well.

50/50 hci dci thing sounds ok. but I don't think that would be enough necessarily bring melee up to the level of archery, and parry-mages would still be superior to melee anyway (you don't need parry on a mage to be superior to melee to begin with), but that's also crossing over into the player-skill area where RNG isn't much a factor. so opinions on that will most definitely vary.

People like to play different things. Right now we have a ton of possibilities but we're being forced to only play a couple. Constant nerfs have a proven track record of not working and effects everything in the game. Honestly, if we keep on this track I can really see them hardcapping damage on every weapon, special and spell in PvP.

Every template should have a unique pro to play.
-Parry mages have the pro of 30sdi and defensive ability.
-Archers have 2 hit spells and balanced to use potions.
-Chiv has excellent defensive ability with options of an offensive arsenal.
-Focused necro I have not encountered yet but sounds very effective.

If thought is really put into this they (or another focus group) could come up with unique ways to make every template have some sort of pro to play. Even PvM is limited on what's effective. You're either a samp, archer or a tamer.

The days of decreasing should be over. It's time to create a world where people can choose what they like to play and succeed.

 

[Smoot]

I don't get the notion that if we tweak archery we need to nerf parry.

It is the imbalance of combat weapons (mainly archery) that has driven any viable mage template to require parry. It seems to me that the goal would be to restore the balance so that mage templates don't require parry. If that happens, there will be fewer parry mages to worry about.

Leave parry alone and focus on restoring the offensive balance.

45hci 120 archery vrs 45dci 100 anatomy mage = 50% chance for arrow to hit
add 120 parry into mix you take another 35% away from that 50%, putting you at 17.5% more chance of the arrow not to hit

So even if an arrow is doing 70 damage, your still only hitting 32.5 percent of the time.
with only 100 parry your still only hitting 35 percent of the time.

thats not taking into account archer defensive suits with 70 dci

The only situation where a parry mage should even die to an archer is if theres 2 or 3 of them vrs 1 mage. and that has nothing to do with balance, thats just a gank. im sure an archer would die pretty much instantly vrs 2 or 3 mages.

@Bleak

Archers vrs mages are actually balanced right now. keep in mind that an archer only has less than 1/3 of a chance to even hit a parry mage.

Given the current 1/3 chance to hit, the offensive abilities of mages vrs archers are pretty much as balanced as your going to get.

 

[Merus]

45hci 120 archery vrs 45dci 100 anatomy mage = 50% chance for arrow to hit
add 120 parry into mix you take another 35% away from that 50%, putting you at 17.5% more chance of the arrow not to hit

So even if an arrow is doing 70 damage, your still only hitting 32.5 percent of the time.
with only 100 parry your still only hitting 35 percent of the time.

thats not taking into account archer defensive suits with 70 dci

The only situation where a parry mage should even die to an archer is if theres 2 or 3 of them vrs 1 mage. and that has nothing to do with balance, thats just a gank. im sure an archer would die pretty much instantly vrs 2 or 3 mages.

@Bleak

Archers vrs mages are actually balanced right now. keep in mind that an archer only has less than 1/3 of a chance to even hit a parry mage.

Given the current 1/3 chance to hit, the offensive abilities of mages vrs archers are pretty much as balanced as your going to get.

Archers and mages are not balanced right now. Archers and parry mages are balanced. THAT is the problem and why every mage is running parry.

We need to get back to archers and mages without parry being balanced.

 

[Tjalle]

@Bleak

Start by removing the illegal cheat programs out of the equation.
Then you guys can start balancing PvP...

 

[CovenantX]

The problem with parry isn't that it's good, bad, or overpowered against dexers.

It's a parry imbalance that's shared between templates that use it. It's just the benefits that templates with Parry give up vs what Wrestling/Anatomy + Parry have compared to them (Potions & No Disarm vulnerability for weapon-auto-attack damage....), that's it. it has nothing to do with anything else. That's my problem with Parry.

I don't believe a Parry-mage today would drop parry just because Archery gets toned down. because there's more benefit with that combination of skills that exceed what other templates could get. if it's effective right now, it's going to be just as good as it is now, but archery made weaker? no sense.

People want characters that are effective one vs one, but they also want defensive effectiveness when they're being ganked.

 

[Aeyko]

I don't get the notion that if we tweak archery we need to nerf parry.

It is the imbalance of combat weapons (mainly archery) that has driven any viable mage template to require parry. It seems to me that the goal would be to restore the balance so that mage templates don't require parry. If that happens, there will be fewer parry mages to worry about.

Leave parry alone and focus on restoring the offensive balance.

PERFECTLY Stated.

 

[Smoot]

Archers and mages are not balanced right now. Archers and parry mages are balanced. THAT is the problem and why every mage is running parry.

We need to get back to archers and mages without parry being balanced.

but its so easy to make a parry mage theres no reason not to. plus they added the anti-disarm mastery for tank mages. The only thing i could think of to change for non-parry mages would be to remove the tactics requirement for weapons specials. you could consider raising sdi cap for non pure mages, but that would introduce another host of problems with necro and mystisim which was why it put at 15 to begin with.

 

[Magnus]

Perhaps something like the fabled proficiency system that was planned years ago would help shake things up instead of blanket changes?

 

[CovenantX]

Constant nerfs have a proven track record of not working and effects everything in the game. Honestly, if we keep on this track I can really see them hardcapping damage on every weapon, special and spell in PvP.

You consider the change to spec-toggling while casting spells (Publish 46) a nerf?'

I consider it more of a Restriction. they can easily be thought of as the same thing though.

Tactics for specials = restriction - the only templates that didn't get hurt by this were the ones that didn't use a weapon skill in the first place. (pure-mages or mage-weapon users)
Spec-toggle while casting/holding spells = Restriction - any template that casts ANY form of spell can no longer keep a special toggle.

Instead of addressing the real problems, they look at one common factor and "fix" (break) it and it absolutely KILLS the variety and viability templates.

Holyfist capped at 35 damage = nerf Chivalry is still useful.
AI capped at 35 damage = nerf AI is still useful.

Weapon skill without Tactics? Not useful ... unless it's wrestling.

Sure it's a nerf but it didn't fix what the problems were. but hey, they fixed the problems with the same publish and even some more afterwords.

Always going to be against those restrictions/nerfs whatever you want to call em that effected more than just what the specific problem was.

Like your Deathstrike suggestion here for example:

2) revert tying deathstrike to hiding and stealth. Hardcap the damage if you must but this will make Ultima flow with new and exciting ninjas.

I don't agree with it completely, but it wouldn't be so bad, because the problem with it before was the fact it did the same damn thing for Ranged weapons as it did for melee. That's what the problem was, which was a specific problem that was fixed (i believe in the same publish actually....)


Pure Melee Dexers should be viable.
Pure Mages should be viable.
Pure Archers/Throwers should be viable.
Hybrid melee Dexers should be viable.
Hybrid Mages should be viable.
Hybrid Archers/Throwers should be viable.

 

[virem]

I think if the solution to archery includes a cap of 1.5 seconds it should be just on archery weapons and not throwing weapons. That would give a reason to choose between archery and throwing.

Throwing isn't overpowered now because the running shots don't do nearly the damage of comp bow.

See look, template diversity.

Also, this would lesson the blow to pvmers, since the vast majority use throwers and not archers who would still be 1.25 seconds.

Also also, if broadsword would like to hire me as a pvp consulant I will work for free for the first year. @Bleak @Mesanna

 

[CovenantX]

Also also, if broadsword would like to hire me as a pvp consulant I will work for free for the first year. @Bleak @Mesanna

They wouldn't need you anylonger than it takes to get things balanced the first time, until they add new skills. all of us are helping them do what WE want for free as it is =D

Edit: technically we're paying them to do what we DONT want.... lol oh its so disappointing sometimes.
It's not too late to turn it around though!

 

[Merus]

but its so easy to make a parry mage theres no reason not to. plus they added the anti-disarm mastery for tank mages. The only thing i could think of to change for non-parry mages would be to remove the tactics requirement for weapons specials. you could consider raising sdi cap for non pure mages, but that would introduce another host of problems with necro and mystisim which was why it put at 15 to begin with.

Sorry, but saying that because making a parry mage is easy every pvp mage should (must) play that template fails.

 

[Critical Gaming]

To get off game mechanics..

UO:A is trash and hasn't been updated since pre-SA. It pains me that I'm expected to pay tugsoft 15 dollars for a program that is garbage.

UO:* and ***** offer EC-like functionality and are much more updated and are very well-written... and are FREE (unlike UO:A)

Would there be any qualms with simply legalizing them?


To clarify, EC has completely changed the game by making warriors much more effective due to the 'attack closest' feature - this cannot be done in UO:A and the client method is clunky. UO:* and ***** offer a feature like this which is directly comparable to EC.

 

[virem]

They wouldn't need you anylonger than it takes to get things balanced the first time, until they add new skills. all of us are helping them do what WE want for free as it is =D

Edit: technically we're paying them to do what we DONT want.... lol oh its so disappointing sometimes.
It's not too late to turn it around though!

Well yes, but the problem with using "all of us" is, a signicant amount of the "all of us" have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to pvp. I'm not sure if the developers realize who actually pvps and who doesn't.

And yes, I mean you @Smoot

 

[CovenantX]

To clarify, EC has completely changed the game by making warriors much more effective due to the 'attack closest' feature - this cannot be done in UO:A and the client method is clunky. UO:S and Razor offer a feature like this which is directly comparable to EC.

That's not what the problem is though.

EC users still play the same thing everyone else is.

Attack nearest is in the default CC as well.
EDIT: There's no "friends" list in default CC =X
the reason they're not deemed "legal" has to be due to two or more things.

1) it's a gate-way to emulation.
2) client modifications.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's still not what the problem is.
and personally I'd rather it be illegal and the rules be enforced, but apparently we can't have it both ways.

 

[Smoot]

Sorry, but saying that because making a parry mage is easy every pvp mage should (must) play that template fails.

i disagree. before global loot there was a trade-off to making a parry mage. now there isnt.

nerfing archers wouldnt change anything. parry mages would still be the most effective, there would still be no reason to play 15sdi cap mage templates. the parry mages would just be even more un-killable than they are now.

 

[drcossack]

To get off game mechanics..

UO:A is trash and hasn't been updated since pre-SA. It pains me that I'm expected to pay tugsoft 15 dollars for a program that is garbage.

UO:***** and ***** offer EC-like functionality and are much more updated and are very well-written... and are FREE (unlike UO:A)

***** gets updated? Every day I use it's the same version, and there are no updates to it. Can't comment on the other one.

 

[CovenantX]

i disagree. before global loot there was a trade-off to making a parry mage. now there isnt.

nerfing archers wouldnt change anything. parry mages would still be the most effective, there would still be no reason to play 15sdi cap mage templates. the parry mages would just be even more un-killable than they are now.

I do agree with this, but at the same time... regardless if the mage has parry or not, which is completely unlike archery, Is that the Mage still has to have knowledge and reaction time to play it effectively. Archery needs much less to be as effective as a "good" mage.

 

[Smoot]

Well yes, but the problem with using "all of us" is, a signicant amount of the "all of us" have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to pvp. I'm not sure if the developers realize who actually pvps and who doesn't.

And yes, I mean you @Smoot

i know that if im my archer, shooting max speed and all that, against a parry mage. im not going to kill him with just archery. which is what this entire thread is about.

If im on my parry mage, there is absolutely no way i would die to an archer unless he got extremely lucky with the rng.

 

[Smoot]

I do agree with this, but at the same time... regardless of the mage has parry or not, which is completely unlike archery, Is that the Mage still has to have knowledge and reaction time to play it effectively. Archery needs much less to be as effective as a "good" mage.

i used to think like this for video games, but have come to realize that theres all types of players, and not all templates should require the same skill. same could be said about tamers (in pvm or pvp)
its any "entry level" easy, basic template that an joe smoe can play with no skill, and thats fine. its better they have something to play and pvp with than not be doing it at all. And there is still a tradeoff. a basic, yet competive mage can be equiped for a fraction of the cost of a competitive archer.

Especially with the overall changes to UO in the last few years, its an overall much more casual game and there is no reason not to provide a "noob" template thats just as effective as an advanced template at this point in modern UO.

 

[Critical Gaming]

That's not what the problem is though.

EC users still play the same thing everyone else is.

Attack nearest is in the default CC as well.
EDIT: There's no "friends" list in default CC =X
the reason they're not deemed "legal" has to be due to two or more things.

1) it's a gate-way to emulation.
2) client modifications.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's still not what the problem is.
and personally I'd rather it be illegal and the rules be enforced, but apparently we can't have it both ways.

It is a GW to emu, but UO:A technically client mods too. I think it's a large problem even if its not 'the' problem.

And in case I missed it, can you show me where to find "attack nearest" in CC?

 

[CovenantX]

i used to think like this for video games, but have come to realize that theres all types of players, and not all templates should require the same skill. same could be said about tamers (in pvm or pvp)
its any "entry level" easy, basic template that an joe smoe can play with no skill, and thats fine. its better they have something to play and pvp with than not be doing it at all.

Right, I just think that for it being an "entry level" template which really most dexer oriented templates really are.

I think it sets the bar a little too high as for how good mages need to be to fight against them, but adjusting running shot to have a better chance to miss o even having runningshot with a -15-20% damage reduction wouldn't hurt it, archers would still be Very effective.

 

[CovenantX]

It is a GW to emu, but UO:A technically client mods too. I think it's a large problem even if its not 'the' problem.

And in case I missed it, can you show me where to find "attack nearest" in CC?

It would be a 2 part macro.

 

[Merus]

i disagree. before global loot there was a trade-off to making a parry mage. now there isnt.

nerfing archers wouldnt change anything. parry mages would still be the most effective, there would still be no reason to play 15sdi cap mage templates. the parry mages would just be even more un-killable than they are now.

I disagree with your premise that previously mages only played other templates because they couldn't get a good enough suit to make a parry mage. IMO, other mage templates are much more versatile... they just aren't survivable anymore.

 

[Smoot]

Right, I just think that for it being an "entry level" template which really most dexer oriented templates really are.

I think it sets the bar a little too high as for how good mages need to be to fight against them, but adjusting running shot to have a better chance to miss o even having runningshot with a -15-20% damage reduction wouldn't hurt it, archers would still be Very effective.

i agree, and ive said that earlier in this thread. but i dont think a simple hci penalty or damage reduction to moving shot would be a good thing because of how it would effect throwers, who are already at a disadvantage when it comes to hit chance with moving shot, and any damage reduction would put the cyclone moving shots damage too low to interupt a heal.

As i said before, ithe simplest, and most effective fix to moving shot with archers would just be to have the same hitchance / damage reduction / range penalties as we currently have with throwers.

Any further nerf than that and it would effect way to much in the game, from pvm, value of global loot, reason to pvm hunt, player game loyalty etc.

 

[CovenantX]

i agree, and ive said that earlier in this thread. but i dont think a simple hci penalty or damage reduction to moving shot would be a good thing because of how it would effect throwers, who are already at a disadvantage when it comes to hit chance with moving shot, and any damage reduction would put the cyclone moving shots damage too low to interupt a heal.

As i said before, ithe simplest, and most effective fix to moving shot with archers would just be have the same hitchance / damage reduction / range penalties as we currently have with throwers.

Any further nerf than that and it would effect way to much in the game, from pvm, value of global loot, reason to pvm hunt, player game loyalty etc.

That's a good point on how it could affect throwers... it would have to be an archer-only thing then.

If you apply the "sweet-spot" that throwers have to archery that could work too... hard to decide between the two. tbh =D

 

[virem]

i disagree. before global loot there was a trade-off to making a parry mage. now there isnt.

nerfing archers wouldnt change anything. parry mages would still be the most effective, there would still be no reason to play 15sdi cap mage templates. the parry mages would just be even more un-killable than they are now.

If this was true then 2-3 years ago before archery started running rampant people should have been playing pure mages, but that wasn't the case. Almost everyone played a variant of a mystic in the field.

 

[CovenantX]

If this was true then 2-3 years ago before archery started running rampant people should have been playing pure mages, but that wasn't the case. Almost everyone played a variant of a mystic in the field.

Well, you can still make a parry-mystic-mage.. focus is plenty mana regen especially with 55 lmc... But, there wouldn't be room for alchemy though which is probably the biggest reason more people play focused-pary-mages..

 

[virem]

View attachment 55120
It would be a 2 part macro.

The problem is there is no select next "orange" in CC. There is select
Next mobile, which includes every mobile on your screen in some sort of order (nearest to farthest?). Problem is a lot then are goats, mongbats, friendlies, etc.

Broadsword just needs to add different options on who it should selecting. Not sure if EC already has those options.

 

[CovenantX]

The problem is there is no select next "orange" in CC. There is select
Next mobile, which includes every mobile on your screen in some sort of order (nearest to farthest?). Problem is a lot then are goats, mongbats, friendlies, etc.

Broadsword just needs to add different options on who it should selecting. Not sure if EC already has those options.

EC does have most/all of those options, I just don't play EC either. nor do I use the select nearest in default CC.
but it's because I prefer the old-school target system. (user preference)

 

[virem]

Well, you can still make a parry-mystic-mage.. focus is plenty mana regen especially with 55 lmc... But, there wouldn't be room for alchemy though which is probably the biggest reason more people play focused-pary-mages..

Yes, you can, and it's still a viable character. However, old mystics had scribe, ninja, alchy, spellweaving, poison. Can't fit any of that now because of the mandatory parry requirement. The versatility of a mystic is why it was played (and would be played again) if parry wasn't required to stay alive.

Supernovas becoming meta are definitely part of pure mages being more popular, but supernovas existed 3 years ago.

P.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with alchemy, it shouldn't be touched at all.

 

[CovenantX]

P.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with alchemy, it shouldn't be touched at all.

hehe, this is where I disagree. to each their own.

 

[virem]

Also, mystic parry is harder to make skill wise than pure mage parry.

 

[virem]

If there's something wrong with supernovas, it's the fact that their cooldown is half that of spell trigger.

Not sure what else could be considered overpowered when it comes to alchemy. I guess double
Conflag is, but that's getting fixed.

 

[Smoot]

Yes, you can, and it's still a viable character. However, old mystics had scribe, ninja, alchy, spellweaving, poison. Can't fit any of that now because of the mandatory parry requirement. The versatility of a mystic is why it was played (and would be played again) if parry wasn't required to stay alive.

i wouldnt be so quick to say that cant be done now, remember, 3 years ago we didnt have the easy ability to fit 60 to 100 extra skill points on a character either.

 

[CovenantX]

Yes, you can, and it's still a viable character. However, old mystics had scribe, ninja, alchy, spellweaving, poison. Can't fit any of that now because of the mandatory parry requirement. The versatility of a mystic is why it was played (and would be played again) if parry wasn't required to stay alive.

Supernovas becoming meta are definitely part of pure mages being more popular, but supernovas existed 3 years ago.

P.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with alchemy, it shouldn't be touched at all.

This isn't directed at you, and even if you do feel it's "mandatory" to play a Parry-mage (regardless of what other skills you use), isn't your Virem character a tactics-mage without parry?

However, old mystics had scribe, ninja, alchy, spellweaving, poison. Can't fit any of that now because of the mandatory parry requirement.

you can't fit "all of that" because instead of having alchemy you'd have parry. you'd give something up for having alchemy. Parry-mages don't really give anything up, as a matter of fact, they get more for what little skill they invest.

 

[CovenantX]

If there's something wrong with supernovas, it's the fact that their cooldown is half that of spell trigger.

Not sure what else could be considered overpowered when it comes to alchemy. I guess double
Conflag is, but that's getting fixed.

Yea but supernovas aren't the only reason that people pick-up alchemy either... is it worth 100.0 skill for only the extra damage on supernovas? some people think so. I don't consider it worth the trade personally but, Supernovas if you use them as a finisher (which everyone does) it Can be worth it just for them alone.

 

[CovenantX]

If there's something wrong with supernovas, it's the fact that their cooldown is half that of spell trigger.

Not sure what else could be considered overpowered when it comes to alchemy. I guess double
Conflag is, but that's getting fixed.

The cooldown on supernovas isn't really comparable to spell trigger though.
you can use supernovas without alchemy (no skill investment)
Spell-trigger (if you use Bombard or Cleansewinds) requires 120.0 Mystic & Focus/Imbuing
Also you have to cast spell-trigger as well as wait for a cooldown.

 

[virem]

i wouldnt be so quick to say that cant be done now, remember, 3 years ago we didnt have the easy ability to fit 60 to 100 extra skill points on a character either.

My parry mystic adds 110 skill points... that's probably pretty close to the most possible. Maybe 30-40 more would be, but that's not the 210 totalish you would need to add
Scribe or alchy.

 

[CovenantX]

i wouldnt be so quick to say that cant be done now, remember, 3 years ago we didnt have the easy ability to fit 60 to 100 extra skill points on a character either.

I wouldn't use the "Bonus" skill point argument, any template can really get more out of that, it's the ones that already take Less skill that get the most out of it. -Any- Focus spec mage.

 

[virem]

The cooldown on supernovas isn't really comparable to spell trigger though.
you can use supernovas without alchemy (no skill investment)
Spell-trigger (if you use Bombard or Cleansewinds) requires 120.0 Mystic & Focus/Imbuing
Also you have to cast spell-trigger as well as wait for a cooldown.

I agree that people without alchy shouldn't be allowed to use supernovas.

Maybe alchy needs small tweaks, but removing it from the list of skills that allows focus pure mages is a bad idea.

 

[Critical Gaming]

Between CF, max HPR, 30/30/18 eater suits, 150 HP, and 80 EP chugs, it's really hard without Alchy to get a 1v1 kill. I think Alchy is also fine as-is. I wouldn't tweak it at all.

Would be nice to see UO:* or ***** legalized or at least an official assist program made to mimic features across platform. I know they will just say "use EC then" but they're keeping CC around because that's why half the people play anymore, so they should put in the effort to legally do what is now being done illegally just to stay competitive.

 

[chester rockwell]

That's not what the problem is though.

EC users still play the same thing everyone else is.

Attack nearest is in the default CC as well.
EDIT: There's no "friends" list in default CC =X
the reason they're not deemed "legal" has to be due to two or more things.

1) it's a gate-way to emulation.
2) client modifications.

Not that I disagree with you, but it's still not what the problem is.
and personally I'd rather it be illegal and the rules be enforced, but apparently we can't have it both ways.

Exactly. Either enforce it or let people "cheat" with other programs besides uoa. When I watch videos of dudes fighting in classic client....I barely recognize the game. There are so many huge inherent advantages to some aspects, its totes ridic.
Either enforce the rules that handicap the f out of people that play the game without cheating or let us do what others are doing. That would make the game a lot more fair.

Also, timers on refresh pots. Get rid of EP. Lower the hit chance on running shots.

 

[CovenantX]

Between CF, max HPR, 30/30/18 eater suits, 150 HP, and 80 EP chugs, it's really hard without Alchy to get a 1v1 kill. I think Alchy is also fine as-is. I wouldn't tweak it at all.

Hehe, 80 EP chugs is only possible with alchemy, but also it's hard to get a kill without alchemy (supernovas).

I don't disagree, but this is essentially the same argument that was based around mystics Stone-form+protection. - mysticism being its only weakness.

I don't like to assume everyone has top tier gear. but lets go with it for a minute.

18 hpr is about 1.6 HP per second. (18 hpr is the cap)

This means it would take ~9 seconds to be healed for the same amount to that of Magery>heal... which is ~13 (self heal)

Damage eater, only heals a % of damage taken 3 seconds AFTER the damage is done to you. up to 30% for specific types & capped at 18% for all damage types.
adds difficulty to kill someone sure

What those things do by themselves don't really make a noticeable difference with the pace of pvp.

Casting focus can make a much bigger difference than HPR & damage eaters.
It's no secret what I think about casting focus though. I'll leave it at that.

just to add to the point though...Without Alchemy or EP.
Heal potions = 20-25 with a ~10 second cooldown. (it would take twice the cooldown for HPR to heal the same amount) I should say a comparable amount (would be about 12 more at minimum
Edit: .... I left out the point =X

If Alchemy didn't exist. how much harder would it be to kill people, and how much harder would it be to survive them?

running in pvp is why people would be hard to kill (or hard to survive -Archers)

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

So here are some thoughts about the discussion thus far.

• Archery feels like it has the biggest impact on the meta at the moment due to its range, damage output, and moving shot. I'm personally against reducing base weapon damage as that would have a negative impact on the community but I'm just one voice of the team. I feel that tweaks to moving shot should be on the table as well other counters to the template such as tweaks to disarmed ranged weapons. I would also like to know more on your thoughts about hard capping ranged weapon swing speed at 1.5.
• Adding more skills into the Focused Spec restriction sounds like a solid idea.
• When it comes to the parry skill it is my opinion that it should be left alone. There have been several changes to the meta which has made parry a more optimal strategy for mages. Do you feel that removing over capped DCI has removed some of the variety in mage templates and why? The elephant in the room is the effects of global loot on combat when it comes to parry. In particular, I would like to know how you feel about their effect on base stats(str,dex,int)?
• As for Corpse Skin + Curse, what are your thoughts on reducing the duration of curse based on magic resistance?
• There are some bug fixes for throwing pots coming down the line.

None of what you have listed will open up more templates; it will only further push the competitive player base into a select number of templates.

1. Archery doesn't need to be addressed unless you are taking a hard look at parry. I agree with most of what @CovenantX and @King Greg are saying in regards to Parry, but I would rather see a buff go to non-parry users; I.E. tank mages or mage weapon mages or non-ranged dexxers. If you gave them a higher DCI cap like 55 as an example, they would have roughly 60% block rate. In today's suits this should be fairly easy to hit so it wouldn't make the template out of the question.
   
2. Reducing Ranged swing speed is a horrible idea because it will directly effect PVM. Reducing base damage will do the same. Both are bad ideas and to be honest, I REALLY do not want to hear people like @MalagAste come in here and blame the PvPers. We need to start bringing back synergy between tram and fel, not further separating it.
   
3. The focus vs non-focus templates is archaic. The sdi cap should be 30. How is it a solid idea to allow mages to further be nerfed in their DPS while mele and ranged are not? (please do not state that you are going to reduce Swing Speed and Ranged Dmg because that would be a HORRIBLE idea).
   
4. Corpse and Curse should not stack, but there should not be an over cap anymore. Corpse should reduce Fire/Pois by 15 from 70. Curse should act as it currently is.
   
5. If you are really fixing double conflag now, you better add an alchemy mastery because the double conflag was a saving grace when fighting outnumbered.

If you are really wanting to open up more templates you need to take a hard look at WHY mages and dexxers have been pigeonholed. Here are a few ways to open up templates:

• Get rid of focused buff/debuff. Allow anyone the ability to achieve 30sdi
• Allow toggling a special while casting
• Allow overcapping of the hard cap of DCI for non-parry users. Like I said earlier, 55 dci would give them roughly 60% block rate.
  
• Make HLD go back to 25, this would balance out a parry user against a non-parry user and the new over capping of dci

 

[virem]

I disagree entirely about giving all mages 30 SDI. Mystic would be head and shoulders ahead of the others if this were the case.

Pure mages should be left alone damage wise (30 SDI)

Mystic is fine the way it is, maybe a small change to nether cyclone as single target damage comparable to a pure mage FS.

To fix necromancy all you need to do is revert the last stupid change (that they did without asking anyone) and make it so that all necros regardless of if they have Margery or not can lower fire/poison to 55.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

I disagree entirely about giving all mages 30 SDI. Mystic would be head and shoulders ahead of the others if this were the case.

Please explain how a mystic would be head and shoulders ahead of the others.

 

[CovenantX]

I don't think making every spell casting school capped at 30 sdi is the way to go.., but a 15% difference (especially since they take less skill already to have a higher cap) is a little much

I could see maybe increasing SDI caps for everything (non-focused) up to maybe 20%... but that's still not going to really change anything, in the sense that it'll still be Archers vs Parry-mages. might see more mage-diversity... but dexers are still going to be limited to NS/DS or any variant of archer.

 

[virem]

Please explain how a mystic would be head and shoulders ahead of the others.

The combination of 30 SDI spells plus spell plague and sleep on one character is obviously stronger than just a character that can cast 30 SDI Margery spells.

The reason focused mages were added was to try to increase template variety. And it did, it added one class (and some subclasses) of pure mages.

You give everyone 30 SDI and every single mage will be a mystic.