Sampire Questions

[SimpleEnigma88]

Hey everyone,

So, I've been working on my new Sampire on Atlantic. I'm fairly certain I have alot of the details right, so i won't bore you with too many details. I do, however, wanna ask a couple related questions.

Masteries

Everyone going with Bushido masteries with a Sampire build? I've added in Bushido late, therefore I haven't quite reached 90 skill(88.9), but having read through, it sounds as if Bushido passive and Warcry are the way to go. I've been using the swords mastery, which is okay, but not game changing in anyway. Seems the Onslaught buff barely lasts 5 seconds and Focused Eye is a huge mana drain.
Also, how much is the mana boost at level 3 and 120/120? Seeing as I would like to add a fee more mana to my overall pool(currently at 27), this would be useful info for me.

Thanks agead of time folks, loving the forums.

Andy(Jinx)

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[CorwinXX]

Swords mastery is better.

 

[chester rockwell]

I do fel champ spawns. I run bushido. I'm too lazy to make more macros and have run this same template for 8 years.
With that being said, for a more all-rounded template, swords is better.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I think Onslaught is the only dexxer mastery worth running for PvM.

Your mana pool is really low. Even a basic Imbued suit should cap everything and give you about 50. Alternatively if you're 120 Chivalry I'd go with that over Bushido, as it has the 15 mana boost at level 3 and I think one ability that refils all your stats to full. Long cool down on it but still more useful than Bushido imo.

 

[BeaIank]

I think Onslaught is the only dexxer mastery worth running for PvM.

I'd say Macing stagger goes a long way against hard hitting mobs, so it is worthwhile too, but onslaught is definitely more powerful since it greatly increases your damage output for the next 4 swings at level 3 mastery.
Still, I use my macer a lot, and stagger saved my skin many times.

Now, back at the questions at hand... how the heck do you only have 27 mana on your sampire?
The 15 mana from a level 3 bushido or level 3 chivalry won't help you much if you have such little amount of mana available to you. Get more mana on your suit asap and go for swords mastery.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I'd say Macing stagger goes a long way against hard hitting mobs, so it is worthwhile too, but onslaught is definitely more powerful since it greatly increases your damage output for the next 4 swings at level 3 mastery.
Still, I use my macer a lot, and stagger saved my skin many times.

At this point in time I don't think there's any compelling reason to play any weapon skill other than Swords or Throwing in PvM.

 

[SimpleEnigma88]

Wow, ok. I haven't really had much problem spamming DS or whirlwind continuously. My problem is I'm currently stuck at 225 stats, haven't bought a scroll yet(6mil on Atlantic). So, I went with a small mana pool in favor of HPs and 180 stam. I fully intend to grow my mana pool though.

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[CorwinXX]

At this point in time I don't think there's any compelling reason to play any weapon skill other than Swords or Throwing in PvM.

Archery is better than Throwing because Throwing has several problems:
1. no DS
2. damage penalty for range (should stay close to your target)
3. no 20% damage reduction
4. no 10% SSI from enhancing

But for a new players Throwing is better because:
1. much cheaper weapon
2. needn't arrows

I agree that in general swordsmanship is better but in some cases (like Belfry) Macer does much better than a Swordsman. For a char with a shield I like maces more than swords because a Maul is much better than a Scimitar.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Archery is better than Throwing because Throwing has several problems:
1. no DS
2. damage penalty for range (should stay close to your target)
3. no 20% damage reduction
4. no 10% SSI from enhancing

But for a new players Throwing is better because:
1. much cheaper weapon
2. needn't arrows

I agree that in general swordsmanship is better but in some cases (like Belfry) Macer does much better than a Swordsman. For a char with a shield I like maces more than swords because a Maul is much better than a Scimitar.

So by that logic does Archery have problems because you have limited ammo, additional carrying weight, can't use pots?

 

[CorwinXX]

So by that logic does Archery have problems because you have limited ammo, additional carrying weight, can't use pots?

Don't you see difference between inconvenience and inability?

inability:
1. Sometimes you do 2x less damage because you don't have DS
2. Sometimes you do 2x less damage because of range issues.
... Sometimes you are not able to chain AI because of 2.
... Sometimes you do 4x less damage because of combination 1 and 2.
3. Sometimes you lose 10x more stamina per hit taken because of lack of damage reduction.
... Sometimes you just can't survive because of lack of damage reduction.

inconvenience:
1. You need spend gold for ammo
2. additional weight 75-100 stones (1.5-2k arrows)
3. You need balanced xbow to use potions (although you need an xbow in any case for situations when you want to be sure you don't shoot at your target)

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Don't you see difference between inconvenience and inability?

inability:
1. Sometimes you do 2x less damage because you don't have DS
2. Sometimes you do 2x less damage because of range issues.
... Sometimes you are not able to chain AI because of 2.
... Sometimes you do 4x less damage because of combination 1 and 2.
3. Sometimes you lose 10x more stamina per hit taken because of lack of damage reduction.
... Sometimes you just can't survive because of lack of damage reduction.

inconvenience:
1. You need spend gold for ammo
2. additional weight 75-100 stones (1.5-2k arrows)
3. You need balanced xbow to use potions (although you need an xbow in any case for situations when you want to be sure you don't shoot at your target)

But again, you're cherry picking situations that in practice rarely, if ever, happen. You make it sound like playing a Thrower equates to a sure death and low damage when everyone knows that is not the case.

 

[Merlin]

I use the Bushido mastery on my sampire. This is in part because my natural Bushido skill is 120 and my Swords is 100 (120 only with the Captain John's Hat). The passive mana boost is worth it, and the slight boost to the Confidence spell isn't bad either. The cool off timer on Warcry is too long, but I will use it for boss fights. Onslaught is nice, but I feel is only worth it if you have natural 120 swords and don't need the extra 15 mana that you get from the passive Bushido mastery.

 

[CorwinXX]

I forgot to mention:
4. An archer can dismount/mount in a fraction of second. For a thrower it is like casting a spell. Sometimes you die because you wasn't able to start to fly.

But again, you're cherry picking situations that in practice rarely, if ever, happen.

What place are you fighting? (Points that affect in brackets)
Shadowguard (2, 3, 4)
Dragon Turtle (3, 4)
Ararat (2, 3)
Blackthorne (1, 2)
Slasher (2, 3, 4)
Stygian Dragon (3, 4)
Shimmering Effusion (2, 3)

It's simpler to say where it almost doesn't affect:
- weakest peerless boses like Medusa and Narvery
- boring non-Felucca spawn (on Felucca you need a group and a PvP char)
- in a large party but without bards
- Scalis?

 

[Merus]

I have both 120 swords and 120 mace for my sampire and prefer macing.

 

[SimpleEnigma88]

I've managed to get up to 57 mana, 181 stam, and 131 hp. Finally got my hands on a stat scroll. HCI is about 10% under cap, so i need to work on that.

I have started using Onslaught, but intend to try out Warcry after i get my paws on a bushido primer III.

With 44 lmc and 57 mana, i do pretty well while spamming specials. I should notice a much bigger difference with Onslaught after switching LJ for anatomy(this character was actually a farm toon to begin with).

Thanks for all the input folks.

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[CorwinXX]

intend to try out Warcry

1 hour cooldown ruins this spell.

 

[SimpleEnigma88]

1 hour cooldown ruins this spell.

Wow, that really is an extremely long cooldown. I doubt i use it often at all, thanks Corwin.Still, I like to think it might be useful in a pinch, trying a new boss for the first time, maybe. I'm not the best of players, so more damage reduction really plays into my style. I'd always rather my fights take a little longer if it means my survivability goes up.



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[chester rockwell]

I use the Bushido mastery on my sampire. This is in part because my natural Bushido skill is 120 and my Swords is 100 (120 only with the Captain John's Hat). The passive mana boost is worth it, and the slight boost to the Confidence spell isn't bad either. The cool off timer on Warcry is too long, but I will use it for boss fights. Onslaught is nice, but I feel is only worth it if you have natural 120 swords and don't need the extra 15 mana that you get from the passive Bushido mastery.

That confidence makes it easier when you are getting run out of a spawn by a few peeps and their running shots. Evade for a bit, then confidence....lather rinse

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I forgot to mention:
4. An archer can dismount/mount in a fraction of second. For a thrower it is like casting a spell. Sometimes you die because you wasn't able to start to fly.


What place are you fighting? (Points that affect in brackets)
Shadowguard (2, 3, 4)
Dragon Turtle (3, 4)
Ararat (2, 3)
Blackthorne (1, 2)
Slasher (2, 3, 4)
Stygian Dragon (3, 4)
Shimmering Effusion (2, 3)

It's simpler to say where it almost doesn't affect:
- weakest peerless boses like Medusa and Narvery
- boring non-Felucca spawn (on Felucca you need a group and a PvP char)
- in a large party but without bards
- Scalis?

1. I'm assuming you're referring to Double Shot with Yumi compared to no DS with Throwing. It speeds things up at Blackthorn, and that's it, speeds up, not makes possible.
2. Firstly, I don't know where you plucked doing 2x less damage from, but it's nowhere near that figure even at 1 tile range. Secondly, there is nothing innate to Throwing that causes "range issues", you can be at the same range as Archery on everything listed.
3. Complete nonsense. How do you know HSL didn't proc? How do you know they didn't use a Total Refresh? How do you know they didn't hit Divine Fury? These are rhetorical, in other words you have no idea what, or when any of these things might happen because you're talking about a fictional scenario where the player sits there doing nothing. Also if you think Shadowguard, Dragon Turtle, Slasher, Stygian (?!?! seriously) etc are not doable because of the lack of a swamp dragon then I don't know what the hell forum you've been reading for the last few years but it sure wasn't this one.
4. Instant remount isn't required for anything in PvM.

There is nothing special about Archery that make any of those situations any more/less doable. The only real difference is the inconveniences you listed above, which firstly why would anyone want to make things less convenient for themselves, and secondly running out of ammo would be pretty inconvenient on some of those longer fights, having to enhance your weapons with a tool that isn't cheap is pretty inconvenient too.

It's pretty hard to take any of what you've said seriously.

 

[CorwinXX]

you can be at the same range as Archery on everything listed.

With a thrower you do 2x less damage when you at max range.

Complete nonsense. How do you know HSL didn't proc?

I know that a Thrower take 25% more damage. And this is why you can't solo, for example, Shimmering Effusion and I can.

have no idea what, or when any of these things might happen

With an archer I get 25 damage and lose 2 stamina, with a thrower you get 31 damage and lose 15 stamina. You need press DF which may mean you don't used AI for this shot because you had 100 ms to react and there is casting delay and cast recovery delay or may even mean you just haven't enough mana for AI.

etc are not doable because of the lack of a swamp dragon

Slasher is doable... but sometimes you need to run out of range just to start flying. Stygian is doable with a help of 2x teleporter trick. And both take about 50% more time with a thrower compared to archer. I did them both with a thrower and with an archer.
And vbain is not doable with a thrower and doable with an archer. (well if you try 10 times and get lucky to be not dismounted during all the fight you probably may do vbane... 1 times of 10

Instant remount isn't required for anything in PvM.

I see you never did vbane. And even against a slather with a thrower you need to run out of range to "remount" while an archer just press a key and continue fighting. Do you need more examples? I have.

and secondly running out of ammo

I never run out of ammo.

It's pretty hard to take any of what you've said seriously.

It is just because you have not soloed any serious monster last 5 years. You should just try it to understand what I say.

 

[CorwinXX]

p.s. If you want I will create a char on Atlantic and join you just to see how you do it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

With a thrower you do 2x less damage when you at max range.

Clearly don't.

Slasher is doable... but sometimes you need to run out of range just to start flying.

No you don't. There's no need or point to be mounted for that fight.

Stygian is doable with a help of 2x teleporter trick.

Stygian is doable walking on foot through the rooms at either end.

And both take about 50% more time with a thrower compared to archer.

Completely untrue.

I did them both with a thrower and with an archer.

Your Thrower must be setup wrong the numbers you claim are nowhere near reality.

And vbain is not doable with a thrower and doable with an archer. (well if you try 10 times and get lucky to be not dismounted during all the fight you probably may do vbane... 1 times of 10

Speculation. Cba to address baseless claims.

I see you never did vbain.

I have done Virtuebane? lol.

And even against a slather with a thrower you need to run out of range to "remount" while an archer just press a key and continue fighting.

Again, no you don't. Never have, my Throwers a Wraith so why would I be running out of range to remount. My Thrower solod Slasher long before you. It's still on this forum look it up.

Do you need more examples? I have.

You could do with posting something factual.

I never run out of ammo.

Yes you do. Everyone does. As there is no infinite ammo item in UO.

It is just because you have not soloed any serious monster last 5 years. You should just try it to understand what I say.

You have no idea what you're talking about and no idea what anyone else in UO does unless they tell you. As most grown ups don't feel the need to constantly go ner ner to each other not everyone posts everything they do. As you proved in the Ninja thread, by stupidly claiming you hadn't seen something in another thread that you had posted in.

 

[CorwinXX]

Clearly don't.

From the pictures you posted I see few things:
1. Someone do 186 damage to a greater dragon on the left picture. There is no info about character, range, weapon, base character damage.
2. Someone do 162 damage to a greater dragon on the right picture. Probably it's the gargoyle we can see on the picture but it as well may be another character. In any case there is no info about range and base character damage.
3. You not only claim that there is no "overthrown" damage penalty for throwing but you also posted weird pictures to prove it.

I believe that all throwers know about overthrown penalty from experience. People who have no thrower can read about overthrown penalty:
a) on stratics.com: Throwing - Old Stratics
b) on uoguide.com: Throwing - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia
Underthrown (too close): Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction (can be compensate by having high dex and throwing skill).
Overthrown (too far): No Hit Chance penalty, but 47% damage reduction.

Or you can do quick tests on TC1.

This penalty makes kiting against fast monsters very difficult. You need excellent connection and excellent timing.
With an archer if you stop too late a monster gets a shot slightly later - when it enters the range. With a thrower if you stop too late a monster gets 2x less damage (this also can means not enough mana leached for next AI).
With an archer if you stop too early a monster gets closer to the archer but usually still out of combat range. With a thrower if you stop too early a monster gets closer to the thrower and for fast monsters (or bad connections) it's often within combat range.

 

[Zalan]

Alright guys I think it's time you cool off. No need to go at it like cats and dogs.

 

[Merlin]

@CorwinXX @Lord GOD(GOD)

Gentlemen - you two are amongst the top posters on the various 'template' forums here like UO Warrior, etc. However, this particular debate is getting a little more heated than necessary. I really don't want to have to give out warnings unless I'm pushed to it, but the name calling has got to come to an end and the level of snippy-ness needs to come down a level. There is nothing wrong with disagreement about the issues you've discussed, but lets try to make it a bit less personal.

 

[Barbarian]

Lord God presents a lot of facts, CorwinXX presents a lot of speculation.

I enjoy both of their posts nonetheless

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

If it was a different character the damage numbers wouldn't appear on my screen.

Most of the monsters listed are not fast.

There is no mobility difference between Archers and Throwers for swinging and no logic to that argument.

The penalties were removed about 6 months after they came out.

Everything else is either irrelevant or speculative.

 

[CorwinXX]

Lord God presents a lot of facts, CorwinXX presents a lot of speculation.

Could you list the facts that Lord God presented?

1. no DS
2. damage penalty for range (should stay close to your target)
3. no 20% damage reduction
4. no 10% SSI from enhancing

Are these not facts?

a) on stratics.com: Throwing - Old Stratics
b) on uoguide.com: Throwing - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia
Underthrown (too close): Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction (can be compensate by having high dex and throwing skill).
Overthrown (too far): No Hit Chance penalty, but 47% damage reduction.

Are these not facts?

 

[Barbarian]

It is not necessary, they are written above. I was not criticising you

 

[Zalan]

The information from old Stratics and UO Guide are out of date. Information on both sites has not been updated since 2010. UO Guide is quite possible going to be taken down according to JC the Builder.

The only ones that can answer your questions are the Developers. I would suggest heading to a Developer Meet and Greet to ask

 

[CorwinXX]

It is not necessary, they are written above.

I don't see a lot of facts. There are just words and often those words are not true.

I was not criticising you

You said I don't post facts just speculations. I would like you give me a direct answer: is my quotes in the previous post are facts or speculations?

 

[CorwinXX]

The only ones that can answer your questions are the Developers. I would suggest heading to a Developer Meet and Greet to ask

You need not to be a Developer to enter the game and make few shot by a thrower. If you want I can make a short video so everyone could see damage numbers.

 

[Barbarian]

I am quite sure you would like me to give you a direct answer, however you are not in a position to demand one so please moderate your tone.

Your posts are often very interesting, however much of the above comes across as unnecessarily confrontational. We are, after all, discussing imaginary little pixelated people chucking pixels at other pixels. It is of no importance to anything at all, so maybe get some perspective and chill out.

 

[CorwinXX]

you are not in a position to demand one so please moderate your tone

Was there in my post something that could be treated as a demand?
I was trying to be as polite as possible so I just don't know how could I farther moderate my tone.

p.s. I see you will not answer. Is it means that your posts must be classified as:
"The making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

There is nothing personal. I'm just trying to prevent forum readers from a cheater

This is personal lol. It's also speculative and an oxymoron. I think you also drastically over estimate how much anyone cares about your 'challenges', I barely bother logging in at the moment, but did so just to do some AI's, for your benefit not mine. I already know that I don't mysteriously do half damage at full range. For you to then speculate that I cared enough to photoshop the images and whatever other silly excuses you came up with just shows how illogical you are.

a) on stratics.com: Throwing - Old Stratics
b) on uoguide.com: Throwing - UOGuide, the Ultima Online Encyclopedia
Underthrown (too close): Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction (can be compensate by having high dex and throwing skill).
Overthrown (too far): No Hit Chance penalty, but 47% damage reduction.

Are these not facts?

No. This is a wiki. Wiki's are not fact.

There are just words and often those words are not true.

You don't know that, which is what makes it speculation. The difference is I'm posting my opinion based on my experience. You on the other hand claim things like 'you can't do Fel spawns on a Thrower' which is obviously untrue as there is no difference in the monster on any facet. I regularly and mainly spawn on my Thrower in Fel without any issues. I've recently solod Rikktor (obviously not the achievement part) with a PvP Mage dumping on me, not because my Thrower has any PvP ability, but because it is so good at PvM that it could simply ignore the Mage's attempts. Everything in a forum is just words, yours too, but the difference is you seem to be under the delusion that your words are fact and everyone else's are lies.

If you want I can make a short video so everyone could see damage numbers.

So when I post pictures it's a lie, when you post it's a fact. Again, no logic, and why you sound silly.

Was there in my post something that could be treated as a demand?

Yes. This...

I would like you give me a direct answer

p.s. I see you will not answer. Is it means that your posts must be classified as:
"The making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."?

No, what it means is he (as I and others) find you tedious, because you continually fail to see anyone else's point of view. Most people on this forum are not 5 years old, going 'well!...well!... if you can't kill a Greater Dragon while naked using a dagger then you don't know what you're talking about and I'm right!' is what you sound like. No one cares about your 'challenges', at best people (like I did with the pictures) may chose to humour you, if they can be bothered. In case it's still not clear, wayyyy back in post 6 I stated my opinion, you then derailed the thread for 30 posts arguing about it. Most of what you posted was speculation. I could write a list of which parts are speculation but it would more than likely be lost on you anyway.

You then started on Barbarian with your tedious 'not getting it'. He posted his opinion, of what he has observed, which is the same as what I've observed, a lot of speculation. You then (as before) cherry picked, the few facts you did state (none of which were overly compelling), completely ignoring all the speculative nonsense you posted which is what he had observed.

You seem to be under the delusion that when you make some daft speculative claim that it is up to the other person to defend against it. It isn't. It's on you to post facts not speculation.

Most of your arguments are so speculative, illogical, bizzare, or just plain nothing to do with the train of conversation that it becomes too much of a chore to care about your view.

 

[CorwinXX]

You don't know that, which is what makes it speculation.

I know that. I played a lot with a thrower. And I just spend a half hour killing elems and there was ~50% difference between damage at max range and damage at middle range. Do you want me to post the numbers?

or you to then speculate that I cared enough to photoshop the images

You lie again. I didn't said you used photoshop. I said that posted pictures where I can't see base character damage and range and claimed that the range was max and the damage was 100% of max possible for this char against this monster.

You on the other hand claim things like 'you can't do Fel spawns on a Thrower' which is obviously untrue as there is no difference in the monster on any facet.

You lie again. I didn't said thar you can't do Fel spawn on Thrower. I said that you need a PvP char on Fel spawns (to defend yourself from raids). I also said that you can't farm Fel Whetstone without Teleport.

So when I post pictures it's a lie, when you post it's a fact.

There is difference between what there is on your picture and what you saying. You claim about range and there are no any range numbers.

because you continually fail to see anyone else's point of view.

You lie again. Any forum reader can check and confirm that I put a likes to other posters (including you).

wayyyy back in post 6 I stated my opinion, you then derailed the thread for 30 posts arguing about it

I just posted my opinion about your opinion and you then derailed the thread for 30 posts arguing about it.
You said:

At this point in time I don't think there's any compelling reason to play any weapon skill other than Swords or Throwing in PvM.

You said there is no reason to play an archer which means a thrower is better. Some players could read it and decide that it is true and start a thrower instead of an archer. I just posted reasons to play archer.

It's on you to post facts not speculation.

I post facts. And what do you post?
You posted a picture like a proof about ranges and there are no any information about ranges on the pictures.
You posted "I have done Virtuebane? lol." and even didn't mention did you do it in a party and what char did you use. It is obvious that even my crafter can do Virtuebane in a party.
You posted "my Throwers a Wraith so why would I be running out of range to remount. My Thrower solod Slasher long before you. It's still on this forum look it up." and Google doesn't know about you solo'ed Slasher with Wraith Thrower. Does it mean that you solo'ed it not in Wraith form but is using it as an argument that you needn't fly to do it? The only video I found was with a thrower not in a Wraith form and the thrower ran out of range to start flying every time it was dismounted - exactly as I said. (by the way how could you had posted it "long before" if you registered less than 2 year ago? or your post was just like "5 years ago I solo'ed Slasher"?)
You answered to "you have not soloed any serious monster last 5 years" and didn't mention any monsters you solo'ed.
And all those facts about your manner to post are just from one your post. And your other answers are in the same manner.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You lie again. I didn't said you used photoshop. I said that posted pictures where I can't see base character damage and range and claimed that the range was max and the damage was 100% of max possible for this char against this monster.

You said the pictures were fake. Which typically means altered. Which you have no proof of. The only thing that was altered was they were cropped to show the relevant information (damage numbers). It was the same character in both shots, I only have one account, if it was a different character the damage numbers wouldn't show up on my screen. The base damage was the same in both instances, the weapon, and skills were the same in both instances. In the first picture you can clearly see it is at 1 tile, and in the second I primed AI and let the GD walk into range so it triggered at max range. The character is using a damage slayer and has 95 DI on items (because I haven't re-Imbued them from a suit change a while ago), 120 Anat/Tact.

You lie again. I didn't said thar you can't do Fel spawn on Thrower. I said that you need a PvP char on Fel spawns (to defend yourself from raids). I also said that you can't farm Fel Whetstone without Teleport.

You said:

- boring non-Felucca spawn (on Felucca you need a group and a PvP char)

You do not need a group or PvP character to spawn in Fel.

There is difference between what there is on your picture and what you saying. You claim about range and there are no any range numbers.

No there isn't. UO doesn't show range numbers.

You said there is no reason to play an archer which means a thrower is better. Some players could read it and decide that it is true and start a thrower instead of an archer. I just posted reasons to play archer.

No, I said this:
"At this point in time I don't think there's any compelling reason to play any weapon skill other than Swords or Throwing in PvM."

Key words you should take notice of are "I" and "think" (meaning it is my opinion) and "compelling" (meaning that matter in actual game play). What you have interpreted what I said as is a factual statement that I did not make. If players want to start Throwers or Archers that is up to them.

I post facts. And what do you post?

You do not post facts. You post SOME facts, and a LOT of speculation, you also do so in such a needlessly rude and ignorant manner that it clouds any point you were trying to make.

I post whatever I like. Sometimes facts, sometimes opinion, but always based on my experience playing the character/UO.

You posted a picture like a proof about ranges and there are no any information about ranges on the pictures.

Well I don't know what you want me to do Corwin, I'm not editing my art files or using scripts to display range information, you can clearly see the positions of my characters in both pictures.

You posted "I have done Virtuebane? lol." and even didn't mention did you do it in a party and what char did you use. It is obvious that even my crafter can do Virtuebane in a party.

Yeah, and as your clearly still not getting why I didn't mention it, let me spell it out again. You posted something YOU DO NOT KNOW...

I see you never did vbain.

...This is you making an ignorant speculative statement. You have no idea whatsoever what I or anyone else in UO has or hasn't done unless I or they tell you or you were there. However, just because you've made a stupid statement doesn't mean anyone has to 'prove' themselves to you. If I post on here that you spend your time dancing around the house in a dress are you obliged to prove me wrong? No. Because I have no way of knowing what you may or may not get up to in your free time, just as you don't know what anyone else does.

Acting like the only way anyone else can do anything in UO is if they're in a party, and comparing it to your crafter, is why you sound rude and ignorant.

You posted "my Throwers a Wraith so why would I be running out of range to remount. My Thrower solod Slasher long before you. It's still on this forum look it up." and Google doesn't know about you solo'ed Slasher with Wraith Thrower. Does it mean that you solo'ed it not in Wraith form but is using it as an argument that you needn't fly to do it? The only video I found was with a thrower not in a Wraith form and the thrower ran out of range to start flying every time it was dismounted - exactly as I said. (by the way how could you had posted it "long before" if you registered less than 2 year ago? or your post was just like "5 years ago I solo'ed Slasher"?)

You posted that not being able to remount is a drawback on Slasher/Stygian and it is not. I stopped playing UO in 2011, then started again a bit later, I didn't have my login details when I started again so I created a new forum name. The thread continued to be bumped for several years after I stopped playing.

Took me all of 30 seconds, here: [Throwing] - Throwing Wammy
And oh look, what a surprise as with the Ninja thread you claimed you didn't know about, you've posted in that one too.

It doesn't matter when it was, it's no different now than it was then, I've done it since but it's hardly worth posting every time I do something. It's even easier now because of reforging and new artifacts etc.

You answered to "you have not soloed any serious monster last 5 years" and didn't mention any monsters you solo'ed.

Yes because as explained 3 times now, people don't have to, this forum has been full of things I've solod for years. Just because you can't find it, have forgotten you've posted in the thread, and I can't be bothered to trawl through them to make you a comprehensive list doesn't discount it from happening.

And all those facts about your manner to post are just from one your post. And your other answers are in the same manner.

Again you've confused fact with speculation. Most of the time because you haven't comprehended what is being said to start with.

 

[CorwinXX]

In the first picture you can clearly see it is at 1 tile, and in the second I primed AI and let the GD walk into range so it triggered at max range. The character is using a damage slayer and has 95 DI on items (because I haven't re-Imbued them from a suit change a while ago), 120 Anat/Tact.

You should to provide this info with the pictures.
So if your STR is 130 then you have 61-77 base damage. With max bonus from Slayer/Chivalry/Honor you must do 183+ damage. If you did 162 this means you got penalties. It seems like on the left picture there is your minimal damage on low range (185) and on the right picture there is your maximal damage on max range (162). And on low range you do up to about 240-250 damage depending on your STR.

You do not need a group or PvP character to spawn in Fel.

I believe it should be obvious what I mean. You can try fel spawn solo but there are a good chance that you will be raided. Although of course it depends on shard.

No there isn't. UO doesn't show range numbers.

You are wrong again. UO do show range numbers if you need them.

On this picture you can see:
Distance: 5

You also can see base character damage: 58-72 (lower than your base damage).
And as you can see the resulting damage with AI is 221 (it is max damage for this char with his current setup).

Sometimes facts, sometimes opinion, but always based on my experience playing the character/UO.

What is worth your thrower experience if you don't even know about overthrown penalties?
When you say something from your experience you should be ready to questions about your experience. And most important question usually is what monsters (and when) have you solo'ed. Because if haven't even tried top-monsters and even not-top-but-cool you solo'ed before chivalry and weapon patches ... your experience is not so great.

You posted something YOU DO NOT KNOW...

When I see a player who doesn't know some base things about the game which anyone who has tried to solo vbane it is sensible to suppose that this player has never tried to solo vbane. Especially if he/she reject to give direct answer to a simple question "have you did vbane solo".

here: [Throwing] - Throwing Wammy

I don't see any details like spent time and amount of deaths. Yes I know wrath can solo Slasher. In this topic I posted "you can". But as I said with a Wraith it takes more time compared with an Archer. And this topic doesn't prove that this my "speculation" is wrong.

It doesn't matter when it was, it's no different now than it was then

Soul Glaive base damage reduced from 18-22 to 16-20 in 2013
EOO bonus amount changed in 2011...(and you had 70 chivalry)

es because as explained 3 times now, people don't have to,

Yes, you don't have to answer this question. But (as I explained above) the list of monsters you have solo'ed in last 5 years would show to reader how much your experience worth. Because now you changed from "a player who solo-ed top level monsters" to "a player who solo-ed middle-level monster years ago before all those new patches".

Although now I already is not interested in your answers. Because I don't think a player who even don't know about damage penalty, who's never met dismounting problems, who says you can't get res when you are solo'ing peerless, who don't know that on most peerless you can leave the area/res/reenter/pick up your corpse and continue fighting, who counts gold that you can earn in 30 min as a big problem... well I believe you got the idea.

 

[Zalan]

Updated Publish 81 on TC1 – Ultima Online

Publish 81 had some changes to throwing. I let you two hash it out.

 

[CorwinXX]

You said the pictures were fake. Which typically means altered.

I didn't say they are "fake" or edited. And I explained in the same paragraph what is wrong with the pictures. They doesn't contain needed information.
Well now I see that you didn't it deliberately but just because you don't know UO damage math. So I'm sorry for naming you cheater.

 

[Tectop]

TE="Merus, post: 2764278, member: 158549"]I have both 120 swords and 120 mace for my sampire and prefer macing.[/QUOTE]
I prefer fencing myself, faster swinging weapon speed

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You should to provide this info with the pictures.
So if your STR is 130 then you have 61-77 base damage. With max bonus from Slayer/Chivalry/Honor you must do 183+ damage. If you did 162 this means you got penalties. It seems like on the left picture there is your minimal damage on low range (185) and on the right picture there is your maximal damage on max range (162). And on low range you do up to about 240-250 damage depending on your STR.

You stated that you do 2x less damage (assuming you mean 50% damage?) at max range. You like working things out, given the numbers you've concluded, do you still maintain that statement?

I believe it should be obvious what I mean. You can try fel spawn solo but there are a good chance that you will be raided. Although of course it depends on shard.

Not really no. It just sounded like you was trying to pad out your argument with something silly.

You are wrong again. UO do show range numbers if you need them.
View attachment 54831
On this picture you can see:
Distance: 5

That's not UO though is it. It's Pinco's UI. I don't play 'E'C' as you can see from the pictures so can't display range information for you any other way than changing my update range, which I'm not going to do because I couldn't be bothered.

What is worth your thrower experience if you don't even know about overthrown penalties?

I did know about them, before they were removed, but either way they are nowhere near the handicap you believe they are.

When you say something from your experience you should be ready to questions about your experience.

I am. If that question is asked in a civil and respectful way. Rather than the belittling childish way you put things across.

And most important question usually is what monsters (and when) have you solo'ed. Because if haven't even tried top-monsters and even not-top-but-cool you solo'ed before chivalry and weapon patches ... your experience is not so great.

I don't know anyone who goes to the effort of posting a comprehensive list of what they've done in UO along side every post. Not even you. The point is you don't know what anyone's experience is, they're under no obligation to tell you, I've solod most things since returning. Do I feel the need to post about them? No, because the majority of them are old news. Soloing the Slasher is old news, as are all champs, and peerless. The only time I would bother posting about soloing something is if I'm doing it in a different way to most people. So that they can see there are other options than just playing sampires all the time.

When I see a player who doesn't know some base things about the game which anyone who has tried to solo vbane it is sensible to suppose that this player has never tried to solo vbane. Especially if he/she reject to give direct answer to a simple question "have you did vbane solo".

No it isn't, and I did answer it.

I don't see any details like spent time and amount of deaths. Yes I know wrath can solo Slasher. In this topic I posted "you can". But as I said with a Wraith it takes more time compared with an Archer. And this topic doesn't prove that this my "speculation" is wrong.

It doesn't prove your speculation right either. As I said before, you're the one claiming these things it's up to you to back it up, no one else is obliged to.

Soul Glaive base damage reduced from 18-22 to 16-20 in 2013
EOO bonus amount changed in 2011...(and you had 70 chivalry)

Ok, let me be more specific, the monster hasn't changed at all. It still does the same attacks, behaves in exactly the same way, if you built (as I did then) for the biggest single hit it would be no different.

Yes, you don't have to answer this question. But (as I explained above) the list of monsters you have solo'ed in last 5 years would show to reader how much your experience worth. Because now you changed from "a player who solo-ed top level monsters" to "a player who solo-ed middle-level monster years ago before all those new patches".

That's your opinion and one I don't share. Most players on this forum have known me for a very long time. No one posts their 'greatest UO achievements' along with every post just to reference their experience, so I don't know why on Earth you think I would need to. Especially when it isn't me making silly claims.

Although now I already is not interested in your answers. Because I don't think a player who even don't know about damage penalty, who's never met dismounting problems, who says you can't get res when you are solo'ing peerless, who don't know that on most peerless you can leave the area/res/reenter/pick up your corpse and continue fighting, who counts gold that you can earn in 30 min as a big problem... well I believe you got the idea.

No not really. I think you've confused two different threads on two different topics, again to pad out a weak argument, and again your reading comprehension is so poor that you still don't seem to understand that something doesn't have to be a problem for me, for me to be able to see that it can be a problem for others.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I didn't say they are "fake" or edited. And I explained in the same paragraph what is wrong with the pictures. They doesn't contain needed information.
Well now I see that you didn't it deliberately but just because you don't know UO damage math. So I'm sorry for naming you cheater.

Apology accepted.

You're right though, I don't know UO Math anymore, I used to but I moved on, now I just play casually and to sell things off, and go by experience rather than obsessing over details that don't really matter. There aren't any encounters in UO that are really any different, the same tactics work that have always worked, because there's no better monster AI than there ever was. Sure they may have thrown in a few with anti Life Leech or whatever, but every encounter is still plink away until it dies, there's no intelligent monster healing itself or countering moves.

 

[CorwinXX]

You do not post facts. You post SOME facts, and a LOT of speculation.....
I post whatever I like. Sometimes facts, sometimes opinion...

I didn't understand what the difference between my "speculations" and your "opinion". Probably this words have the same meaning for you.

I see you agree with me that Barbarian was wrong when said that you post (only) facts and I post (only) speculations.

But you can't say that I post more speculations than you do because (almost?) every my speculation is answer to your speculation:
- You started with speculation that there's no any compelling reason to play with an archer.
- I posted my speculation that Archery is better than Throwing if you are not new player. I posted the list of fact to back up my opinion (about DS, range, Swampy, enhancing).
- You posted your list of facts (ammo, weight, pots)
- I posted list of facts to compare pluses and minuses. Every statement was started by "sometimes" (special sort of facts).
- You posted your speculation that situations in practice rarely, if ever, happen.
- I posted list of bosses with notes winch facts involved. (were it facts or speculations?)
- You posted list of speculations.

And so on.

So we both post facts and speculations (opinion). My opinion is based on my experience and I try to explain in details why I got such opinion. Your opinion is based on your experience and you conceal it for unknown reason (the only info I got from you so far is that you solo'ed something before 2012 then left the game). When my opinion is deferent to other player opinion it may be one of two: I don't know something she/he knows or she/he doesn't know something I know. I would like to learn something new so I ask for details but you don't want to provide them.
For example, I'm interesting how your Wraith can kill Slasher as fast as ABC archer if it does less damage and takes more damage.

Well, I believe it's clear about "speculations", now let's check "facts".

Facts you posted in this topic about throwing-archery:
- an archer has limited ammo, additional carrying weight, can't use pots. (the last fact is wrong: archers can use pots)
- there is no range penalty for throwing (wrong)
- Instant remount isn't required for anything in PvM (wrong... or was it a speculation?)
(here I omit some obvious facts that not directly related to topic... like Stygian is doable, etc)
- Everyone run out of ammo (wrong... or was it a speculation?... you never run out of ammo if you take enough every time... you rather run out of durability on your weapon).
- The penalties were removed about 6 months after they came out. (wrong... weren't they here since 2009?... and still here now... scaled in 2013)
- UO doesn't show range numbers. (wrong)
- here: [Throwing] - Throwing Wammy
- That's not UO though is it. It's Pinco's UI. (wrong)
- I did know about them, before they were removed (wrong... even when your own pictures show that there is overthrown penalty you continue to claim that they are removed)

As we can see most facts you post are wrong. (did I miss some important facts you posted here?)

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I didn't understand what the difference between my "speculations" and your "opinion".

Yes that is abundantly clear. That you can't tell the difference between someone stating their preference, compared with you making stuff up.

I see you agree with me that Barbarian was wrong when said that you post (only) facts and I post (only) speculations.

Uh, no? lol, I haven't said that anywhere. He also didn't say only he said a lot of.

But you can't say that I post more speculations than you do because (almost?) every my speculation is answer to your speculation:
- You started with speculation that there's no any compelling reason to play with an archer.

No I didn't. I've already explained this. See first quote.

- I posted my speculation that Archery is better than Throwing if you are not new player. I posted the list of fact to back up my opinion (about DS, range, Swampy, enhancing).

I agree, you posted your opinion, and backed it up with some facts.

- I posted list of facts to compare pluses and minuses. Every statement was started by "sometimes" (special sort of facts).

Disagree, facts are absolute, a lot of what you went on to say is demonstrably false.

- You posted your speculation that situations in practice rarely, if ever, happen.

Yes.

- I posted list of bosses with notes winch facts involved. (were it facts or speculations?)

You posted your opinion (speculation), that for example remounting matters on Slasher/Styg. You posted that you can't survive on several very easy bosses because you do half damage with a Thrower (false in itself) and can't leech enough.

Your opinion is based on your experience and you conceal it for unknown reason (the only info I got from you so far is that you solo'ed something before 2012 then left the game).

I haven't concealed anything. You've had more information than that you just chose not to read/remember/acknowledge it.

I would like to learn something new so I ask for details but you don't want to provide them.

Then you really aught to look at how you go about asking.

For example, I'm interesting how your Wraith can kill Slasher as fast as ABC archer if it does less damage and takes more damage.

It doesn't do less damage it does more. If you're in Wraith Form you get a lot more AI's than you do not in Wraith Form.

Well, I believe it's clear about "speculations", now let's check "facts".

Facts you posted in this topic about throwing-archery:
- an archer has limited ammo, additional carrying weight, can't use pots. (the last fact is wrong: archers can use pots)

They can only use pots if they Imbue Balanced, or switch/unequip weapons, they can't use them as an innate ability because they are 2H.

- there is no range penalty for throwing (wrong)

You keep saying wrong, and that you're going to post pics/videos, you stated that you do 50% damage at max range. If you're going to post proof then post it? However, I can't say I've ever seen my Thrower do 50% damage, which leads me to think it's not that likely to happen in practice (if as you say it happens at all).

- Instant remount isn't required for anything in PvM (wrong... or was it a speculation?)
(here I omit some obvious facts that not directly related to topic... like Stygian is doable, etc)

I can't remember/be bothered to look if that was my exact wording, but if you're saying it IS required for something in PvM... what?

- Everyone run out of ammo (wrong... or was it a speculation?... you never run out of ammo if you take enough every time... you rather run out of durability on your weapon).

I was being facetious, because you were being an arse. However, you don't always know how much you're going to need so can't always take enough. I don't know what shard you're on but on Atlantic there have been EM events that have gone on for hours, often in the middle of Ilshenar. The amount of Throwers at events has increased a lot in recent years.

- The penalties were removed about 6 months after they came out. (wrong... weren't they here since 2009?... and still here now... scaled in 2013)

They were effectively removed shortly after coming out by scaling against Str and Dex, to the point they are non factors, as range is also tied to Str, everyone plays with the requirement anyway.

- UO doesn't show range numbers. (wrong)

It doesn't.

- here: [Throwing] - Throwing Wammy

Not sure why you've quoted that?

- That's not UO though is it. It's Pinco's UI. (wrong)

Well whatever it is, it isn't UO.

- I did know about them, before they were removed (wrong... even when your own pictures show that there is overthrown penalty you continue to claim that they are removed)

You said 50% at max range, 50% of 186 is not 162, also if the penalties still existed I'd also be getting underthrow on the 1 tile range and barely able to hit anything, which also doesn't happen.

As we can see most facts you post are wrong.

Nope.

(did I miss some important facts you posted here?)

Yes, it's why I've repeated all the answers for you again.

 

[SimpleEnigma88]

You guys stole my thread.... *sniff*

Lol

Sent from my LG-D950 using Tapatalk

 

[CorwinXX]

You posted that you can't survive on several very easy bosses because you do half damage with a Thrower (false in itself) and can't leech enough.

Don't lie please. I never said I can't survive on very easy bosses.

It doesn't do less damage it does more. If you're in Wraith Form you get a lot more AI's than you do not in Wraith Form.

Your information is outdated. Since publish with reforging and 55 LMC an archer can chain AI. (By the way most of your info is outdated.)
And there is damage penalty for thrower. This is why a Wraith does less damage if it tries to keep distance. (I believe you didn't frighted Slasher at melee range?)

They can only use pots if they Imbue Balanced

Do you see difference between "can't" and "can if"? The last one means "can". It's an elementary logic.
I'm interesting how it can be that my archer use potions if she can't?

You keep saying wrong

I keep saying about penalty and don't say now about exact numbers. So I'm true here: "there is overthrown penalty".

However, you don't always know how much you're going to need so can't always take enough.

Usually I take 1.5k arrows. For some places (for example, blackthrone) I take 2k.

I don't know what shard you're on but on Atlantic there have been EM events that have gone on for hours, often in the middle of Ilshenar.

I don't like events. I know very little about events. If you say that thrower is better for events I'm not going to argue.

They were effectively removed shortly after coming out by scaling against Str and Dex, to the point they are non factors, as range is also tied to Str, everyone plays with the requirement anyway.

There ware two kind of penalties: underthrown and overthrown. Underthrown penalty was been effectively removed (everyone has... or going to have... 100+ skill and 100+ dex).
Overthrown penalty is still in the game. Although since 2013 it is scaled by STR and Stamina.
I don't know how much STR/Stamina you need but I definitely know that you are not able to constantly keep your stamina maxed.

And I also heard a rumor that a lot of players don't have mediocre suits. They probably go with just 120 STR and 150 Stamina like my Thrower do. Even worse they probably don't +25 stats bonus because it costs millions and they even can't afford spending 2k on insurance for additional jewels. (But this is just rumor so I will not stay on it).

Well whatever it is, it isn't UO.

It's UO. It's standard UO client. I don't use any programs except UO itself (I used to use pinco's but stopped because it's too laggy). If you don't want to use better client it's your derision (probably the old one is better for you for some reasons). But when you say it doesn't exist you are wrong.

if the penalties still existed I'd also be getting underthrow on the 1 tile range and barely able to hit anything, which also doesn't happen.

As I have written above underthrown penalty was removed soon (probably in six months).
That admit the obvious thing - penalty is in the game.
For my char penalty is 50% (1.5x). It's a huge penalty.
If you think 20% penalty is not a lot think about 120 skill points you spend to get those 20% (120 Anatomy).
If you think 6% penalty is not a lot think about 40 skill points you spend to get those 6% (Anatomy and Tactics from 100 to 120).

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Don't lie please. I never said I can't survive on very easy bosses.

I'm not saying you personally. You put a list of monsters with numbers next to them reflecting what you considered issues of Throwing. Including:

2. Sometimes you do 2x less damage because of range issues.
... Sometimes you are not able to chain AI because of 2.
... Sometimes you do 4x less damage because of combination 1 and 2.
3. Sometimes you lose 10x more stamina per hit taken because of lack of damage reduction.
... Sometimes you just can't survive because of lack of damage reduction.

The list of monsters you gave included Stygian Dragon, Slasher, Dragon Turtle and Blackthorn Masters. Which most people who go around killing bosses would consider easy.

Your information is outdated. Since publish with reforging and 55 LMC an archer can chain AI. (By the way most of your info is outdated.)
And there is damage penalty for thrower. This is why a Wraith does less damage if it tries to keep distance. (I believe you didn't frighted Slasher at melee range?)

You can have 55 LMC on the Thrower too so that point is moot. You're still going to AI more in Wraith Form. (By the way, saying 'I'm just trying to learn as a player I'm not being a trolling dickhead' then following the answer you get up with 'your information is outdated' invalidates your 'I'm just trying to find out' act.)

I don't fight it at melee or max range, which is why it would be a non issue either way.

Do you see difference between "can't" and "can if"? The last one means "can". It's an elementary logic.
I'm interesting how it can be that my archer use potions if she can't?

Yeah a bit like the other thread I think you're wandering off in to the realms of trying to dissect language, which as you're not a native English speaker probably isn't going to do anyone any favours, so to return to the point. The point was a Thrower can use pots because they're one handed, but an Archer needs to Imbue Balanced or unequip, whatever way you chose to word it/hear it that is a drawback for Archery and not Throwing.

I keep saying about penalty and don't say now about exact numbers. So I'm true here: "there is overthrown penalty".

I've no idea what you just said, could you reword it?

Usually I take 1.5k arrows. For some places (for example, blackthrone) I take 2k.

*Think we're kind of arguing over nothing on a lot of these* It's fine, but the point isn't how much you personally take to what etc, it is simply that (in the topic of Archers vs Throwers) Archers have additional weight, and a finite resource (as in you can only carry so much), and there may be times when people run out. On Throwers it's a non issue to begin with.

There ware two kind of penalties: underthrown and overthrown. Underthrown penalty was been effectively removed (everyone has... or going to have... 100+ skill and 100+ dex).
Overthrown penalty is still in the game. Although since 2013 it is scaled by STR and Stamina.
I don't know how much STR/Stamina you need but I definitely know that you are not able to constantly keep your stamina maxed.

Ok, so if that is true, then if I'm out of Stamina surely my damage would plummet? *Goes off to check. - Err, when Atlantic is back up!*

It's UO. It's standard UO client. I don't use any programs except UO itself (I used to use pinco's but stopped because it's too laggy). If you don't want to use better client it's your derision (probably the old one is better for you for some reasons). But when you say it doesn't exist you are wrong.

Ok, I'll have to take your word for it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You guys stole my thread.... *sniff*

Sorry

 

[SimpleEnigma88]

Haha

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