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STOP NEUTERING FELUCCA.

[K]Double

Visitor
Remove Forged Pardon's from the game.



Returning player here, back a few months, play alot in Fel, most of the time by myself.

Forged pardons need to be removed from the game entirely or have their use altered to something else. They have created and atmosphere of blues killing blues with absolute impunity. I don't mind dying, that's why I play in Fel - risk vs reward.

When I'm on my blue and I come across another blue 9 times out of 10 they are going to attack (and kill me sometimes). The general instinct is to give them a murder count to "punish" them. I'm sure we all know what being red means but for the sake of just getting it out there, we're going to go through it again.

Being a murderer takes 5 murder counts and;

You can no longer go to tram ruleset facets-
Open to attack anywhere by anyone-
No longer invoke virtues-
When players aid you though healing or in any way they become grey and are now open to attack-
The list goes on in other minor ways-

The point I'm making here is that there is supposed to be consequences for your actions. I'm not complaining about dying in fel, my red has over 500 counts. You have effectively given Fel-based guilds a license to kill anyone they wish, anywhere they want, and then they are allowed to enjoy the benefits of the rest of the game on that same character because they simply just purchase their way out of murder counts. There are no consequences here.

I remember thinking about pot-shotting that dexxer fighting the superdragon when he got low a few times too, but I didn't because I was at 4 murder counts and didn't want to spend 40 hours macroing dead at the bank to burn off one count.

The plane is tilted against being red now, it effectively means nothing to be red, might as well remove that from the game.
 

THP

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
but the players want to kill but stay blue.. they like the bank sit...folks dont like being red and being told they cant go somewere...so they whinged and whined and el presto cheapo forged pardons by the bucket full... whatever... seems folks whinge enough the devs do something bout it
 

THP

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
btw i never ever give murder counts when killed... jesus.. sod that its like giving them a pat on the back for killing ur blue
 

Merus

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Remove Forged Pardon's from the game.



Returning player here, back a few months, play alot in Fel, most of the time by myself.

Forged pardons need to be removed from the game entirely or have their use altered to something else. They have created and atmosphere of blues killing blues with absolute impunity. I don't mind dying, that's why I play in Fel - risk vs reward.

When I'm on my blue and I come across another blue 9 times out of 10 they are going to attack (and kill me sometimes). The general instinct is to give them a murder count to "punish" them. I'm sure we all know what being red means but for the sake of just getting it out there, we're going to go through it again.

Being a murderer takes 5 murder counts and;

You can no longer go to tram ruleset facets-
Open to attack anywhere by anyone-
No longer invoke virtues-
When players aid you though healing or in any way they become grey and are now open to attack-
The list goes on in other minor ways-

The point I'm making here is that there is supposed to be consequences for your actions. I'm not complaining about dying in fel, my red has over 500 counts. You have effectively given Fel-based guilds a license to kill anyone they wish, anywhere they want, and then they are allowed to enjoy the benefits of the rest of the game on that same character because they simply just purchase their way out of murder counts. There are no consequences here.

I remember thinking about pot-shotting that dexxer fighting the superdragon when he got low a few times too, but I didn't because I was at 4 murder counts and didn't want to spend 40 hours macroing dead at the bank to burn off one count.

The plane is tilted against being red now, it effectively means nothing to be red, might as well remove that from the game.
I could get on board with your suggestion with one minor adjustment...
Get rid of pardons and make everyone in Fel orange.
 

Spiritless

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
The concept of red/blue is deprecated and has been for some time. The addition of pardons effectively removed red status from the game without doing so physically in order to avoid a community backlash from the traditionalists about reds "not being punished" if they had done so. This was largely successful as it effectively went under the radar since those Trammel players didn't notice any difference whatsoever in their gameplay experience.

Removing red status was a good thing. "PKs" do not exist anymore. Everyone flips on their PvP consent switch when they visit Felucca and you should be prepared for PvP and embrace it if you visit the facet. Players there shouldn't be penalized in the long term for initiating combat; that's what the facet is there for and it should be seen as a positive thing that the person attacking is creating a PvP situation on a PvP facet. They're providing content and entertainment in the appropriate venue which you should be prepared for and capable of fighting back, hopefully enjoying the combat experience which you signed up for by entering the facet.

The concept of "red" and the need to "punish" red characters was ludicrous in a post-Trammel world and particularly post-AoS when champ spawns were added and it was perfectly possible to go red purely through defending a champ spawn for your guild against an enemy guild who would sometimes show up with blues. It was not a distinguishing factor between "good" or "bad" nor an indicator of whether a person would even attack you on-sight or not. It was just an annoyance that you had to macro off counts or keep a character slot for a red permanently arbitrarily limited to a single facet because you enjoy PvP.
 

drcossack

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The concept of red/blue is deprecated and has been for some time. The addition of pardons effectively removed red status from the game without doing so physically in order to avoid a community backlash from the traditionalists about reds "not being punished" if they had done so. This was largely successful as it effectively went under the radar since those Trammel players didn't notice any difference whatsoever in their gameplay experience.

Removing red status was a good thing. "PKs" do not exist anymore. Everyone flips on their PvP consent switch when they visit Felucca and you should be prepared for PvP and embrace it if you visit the facet. Players there shouldn't be penalized in the long term for initiating combat; that's what the facet is there for and it should be seen as a positive thing that the person attacking is creating a PvP situation on a PvP facet. They're providing content and entertainment in the appropriate venue which you should be prepared for and capable of fighting back, hopefully enjoying the combat experience which you signed up for by entering the facet.

The concept of "red" and the need to "punish" red characters was ludicrous in a post-Trammel world and particularly post-AoS when champ spawns were added and it was perfectly possible to go red purely through defending a champ spawn for your guild against an enemy guild who would sometimes show up with blues. It was not a distinguishing factor between "good" or "bad" nor an indicator of whether a person would even attack you on-sight or not. It was just an annoyance that you had to macro off counts or keep a character slot for a red permanently arbitrarily limited to a single facet because you enjoy PvP.
Agreed. However, there are players, especially on Atl, who refuse to join vvv. Some do it because they can sit in the Yew Gate guardzone all day, attack when you already have a bunch of people on you, then talk **** when you die. I don't know why others aren't in vvv, nor do I particularly care. Regardless, due to all of the blues I've killed, I've accumulated about 40 counts in the past 1-2 weeks.

When I first decided to go Red way back (between SE & ML), it was because of spawn fighting, when a lot of people were on Blues. When the VAST majority of players are in vvv, and thus orange to one another, Reds aren't as necessary, which is one reason why I wiped all of my counts on LS - the other was so I could get heals in a gz if needed. I enjoyed having the target on my back, just as I do now. Does it suck that those chars can't/couldn't visit other areas of the game? Perhaps. But it's a choice I made, and I generally have other chars that are better suited to pvm.
 

Acid Rain

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Only reason I can see for pardons is a gold sink. If you want to stay blue and kill players its going to cost you a minimum of 1m (200k per pardon).
On some shards 2.5m (500k per pardon). Its surprising how fast those counts add up.:rolleyes:

I had a red that took me years to go blue. This was done before pardons were introduced.
While I do use pardons (daily sometimes), I agree they've ruined a fun part of the game.
 

[K]Double

Visitor
The concept of red/blue is deprecated and has been for some time. The addition of pardons effectively removed red status from the game without doing so physically in order to avoid a community backlash from the traditionalists about reds "not being punished" if they had done so. This was largely successful as it effectively went under the radar since those Trammel players didn't notice any difference whatsoever in their gameplay experience.

Removing red status was a good thing. "PKs" do not exist anymore. Everyone flips on their PvP consent switch when they visit Felucca and you should be prepared for PvP and embrace it if you visit the facet. Players there shouldn't be penalized in the long term for initiating combat; that's what the facet is there for and it should be seen as a positive thing that the person attacking is creating a PvP situation on a PvP facet. They're providing content and entertainment in the appropriate venue which you should be prepared for and capable of fighting back, hopefully enjoying the combat experience which you signed up for by entering the facet.

The concept of "red" and the need to "punish" red characters was ludicrous in a post-Trammel world and particularly post-AoS when champ spawns were added and it was perfectly possible to go red purely through defending a champ spawn for your guild against an enemy guild who would sometimes show up with blues. It was not a distinguishing factor between "good" or "bad" nor an indicator of whether a person would even attack you on-sight or not. It was just an annoyance that you had to macro off counts or keep a character slot for a red permanently arbitrarily limited to a single facet because you enjoy PvP.

I'm going to take your post with a handful of salt, seeing as how your posting history is quite inflammatory to begin with. Even on the first page of your posting history you are telling people to "not be a penis" and calling things a "dumb and childish", not to mention even reverting back to the provoking "u mad?" comment. Furthermore, the word "deprecated" means that you don't approve of it and your context of "Post-AoS" world is in the context that it doesn't actually include AoS, in which it clearly does. Kind of like post-2nd world war was about the Cold War, not including the chapters of Japan and Nazi Germany. Buy hey, I'm not here to be a grammar Nazi, however after you read the last paragraph of my reply you should immediately refer back to this first paragraph and the circle of enlightenment to which I am about to blow your ****ing mind with will be complete.

Let's examine two things, and then take a moment to reflect.

First, a small list of how Fel has been castrated. There has been only a small handful of additions and content added to Fel in a post-AoS world. (Did you catch that?) A few champ spawns were added to Fel ruleset (cool!) which feature the same exact loot table, save a few crappy items, that the T2A spawns have. They don't even produce a skull worth throwing on the altar of the harrower. Actually in hindsight, you can piss that one away and chalk it up as a negative. Stealing house keys was removed early on in the game. Item insurance was added (I have to agree on this one based on the quality of the items people must use). Bounties were removed. Looting someone elses monster corpse no longer turns you grey and opens you up for attack, you just simply cannot do it - that's a tram ruleset attribute in case you've forgotten. Look, the thing is that I could sit here all night and try to remember every little way that Fel players have been slighted, but I would like to move on with this damning indictment. In full transparancy I must point out the good things that have happened to Fel over the years, in a post-AoS world. Double resources. Hmm, yep. That's all I can thing of at the moment. I mean VvV? Seriously? It's pretty lame, but that's not what this thread is about.

I'll try to keep this entire reply short so you can better grasp it. Sorry, no one liner insults and calling people penises in my responses. I actually try to think things out.

Secondly, let's take a closer look at the subscription base. In 1997-1999, UO broke 100k players due to some bandwidth breakthrough I won't get into. Lineage in comparison just broke over a million that same period, that should put some things into perspective. UO subscriptions went on to peak in 2003 to 250,000, the highest sub base that they have ever had. In case you didn't know, this was the Age of Shadows expansion. Subscriptions in the post-AoS world (starting to like doing that) have been in steady decline. I hear numbers are in the low 40,000 range, but I may never know for sure. That could possibly be an overestimate since less than a handful of servers are truly "active". IDOCs are more rampant then ever before, you can go to Pac and pretty much place a keep wherever you want, the only reason a good amount of people still have castles on GL and pay their sub fees is because they paid a redeculous amount of cash for them, and there has been a player exodus in the past 3+ years. People have been moving off of their dead servers to places like ATL because they have the most vibrant and active population. I'm counting the days until old servers begin to get shut down. Age of Shadows was the pinnacle of UO because it brought in a modern item base and a challenging arena where players could fight each other for a reward (champ spawns). Furthermore, red PK play was highly encouraged and you could even go as far to say as it was fostered. If someone was on a blue doing a spawn with their friends and other blues came to help, they were not killed by the other blues unless they met certain conditions. Who are they?- was a big one. Besides, the reds almost always came in near the end of the spawn. Why would you want to kill a random blue if he's just going to help you get there faster? You know, I'm not going to write a book on this subject, which I could, because the more I think about it, and the more I look back at what you actually wrote, I've come to the conclusion that you played a little bit around in Fel, but were carried by the other wolves such as myself. So you probably don't even meet the cognitive requirements to even have this discussion. You, nor Merlin.

Also might I make a little footnote on Siege Perilous. The PVP scene has been ravaged there as well because the noble blood of SP, the people who have clanned together and make GM political decisions, have neutered the PK's on their server. They are furious. They have dedicated the same amount of time and spirit to play how they want to and just because a larger, more ingrained organization doesn't like it, POOF! They throttle what I can only assume is a socialist tendency in a GM/dev mind to appease the larger crowd for subscription purposes. This has backfired due to the falling out of truly hardcore players.

In conclusion, I have come to the opinion that you don't know what the **** you are talking about. Through a philanthropy scope, there is an evolutionary anomaly that has taken place in UO and many other MMO's. People like you, and the rest of trammelites (siege included) have complained and lobbied to get your way so much that you have completely driven off your opposition who liked the way things were. The best way to explain this, coupling my argument with the subscription numbers, is that people like yourself have complained your way into a down spiral that cannot be refuted, and eventually the lions share of your player base will be people bickering about how they want it easier. Now, your player base has been diluted that eventually this is all you will have left. I'm OK with that. Looks like I'm going back to Dark Souls 3, a place where murder is encouraged. Thank you for your absurd and nonsensical reply, I've reflected on it and decided my time is better spent elsewhere.
 
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Spiritless

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I don't think I've ever seen such a rambling, verbose reply to a post which adds so little to the discussion whatsoever. Kudos. Your odd fixation with my post history, minor details of the terminology I used and a complete assumption based on nothing as to where I play, as you clearly have no idea who I am, clouds any point you were trying to make with barely coherent drivel.

Feel free to try again focusing on the points that I actually brought up if you want to reply to me, preferably attempting to manage it without having some kind of bizarre meltdown because I happen to disagree with you.

Cheers.
 

Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Just do VvV and get a royal pardon go blue and join in the fun.
Remember that when in VvV you are attackable anywhere in Fel, even Guard zones, so thats a bit like being a red in the sense anyone can attack plus f you die you get a debuff.
The system is correct, needs some tweaking but it the correct way, No one wants to play a red, as 1st there isnt enough numbers anymore to be a fun template to play with, and sitting in your house till someone passes by is boring, now being Blue and VvV, you can be anywhere and have a fight.

Also does a red have to PK you to feel as you died in PVP? Before you saw a red tag you would run away if you werent prepared to fight, now a blue can come along and kill you, adds to the mystery if that blue is good or evil, I believe it keeps you more on your toes and ready for anything.
 

CovenantX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
btw i never ever give murder counts when killed... jesus.. sod that its like giving them a pat on the back for killing ur blue
This isn't true anymore man, everyone wants the "town-buffs" reds cannot use the buffs.... count away. :D
 

Archnight

Legendary Merchant & Rare Collector
Professional
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Remove Forged Pardon's from the game
I would rather make them a rarer drop and more expensive (5-10Mil each) then remove them from the game, they still serve a good purpose :thumbup:
 

Merlin

The Enchanter
Moderator
Professional
Governor
Supporter
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Campaign Patron
With the advent of VvV, I don't see any reason to change forged pardons. Maybe take Archnight's suggestion of making Forged Pardons more rare (see: more expensive), but even then, if reds want to turn blue, they should be allowed to do that. If anything, this does make Fel even more risky because now you know you can't even trust blues around you when you're in Fel. In the four years I've been back, there was a steady decline of reds which I think was just the natural flow of where this game was heading towards.

Maybe because I mainly play in a Trammel-based PVM guild, but I am always always surprised by how deathly afraid of Fel some people are. That perception needs to somehow be changed if we're ever going to bring life back to Fel. I know some people would raise fire and brimstone of the idea of giving any additional new content to Fel, but to each their own. I do support more Fel content, i.e., something along the lines of a Fel-exclusive peerless style boss and some new champ spawns (could find a way to incorporate one into some new dungeon of Eodon). But will that be enough to bring Fel back to life again? Probably not all that much.

I don't have an answer to the "Should Reds have access to City Buffs?" question, but at this point, it wouldn't bother me either way if they did make some new way to allow reds to have a buff, or if they continue to maintain to current system of allowing only blues to have it. While changing this might make more people stay red, I don't think it would change the overall amount of people we see in Fel.
 

Lord Arm

Certifiable
Governor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
ive ask for removal of the royal pardons before but they will not listen, so pvp has and will continue to go down hill. I care not for vvv with no reds so have fun.
 

[K]Double

Visitor
Im with ya 100%. The trammelites just dont understand. Why would I give my input on changing a PC OS if im running on mac all the time? Thats essentially the relation here.
 

[K]Double

Visitor
Point is that this game has been in severe decline for years now. Not sure what brought me back a few months ago but i damn sure know why im not renewing any subscriptions.
 

dukarlo

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes, blues taking counts over and over then instantly going back to trammel rulesets is lame. When most of the few remaining players are born of trammel you can see why the policy making for fel is so messed up. Fel should have stayed the path more towards original/real uo but most true fel players were pushed out long ago which is why Fel policy is pretty much influenced by Trammies that only play in Fel part time and whos whole attitude isn't what is best for fel but rather what is best for themselves. That is why we no longer have the spirit of UO and have the abomination of UO that we have today. Noone should be fooled UO is not UO anymore and has not been for a long time.
 

Diomedes Artega

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The thing is, when you examine many other games, UO is still quite original. Most of the original MMO's have merged servers and or failed (closed). I dare say you should always be prepared in Felucca for PvP whether blue player, red player or etc. I mean, should it matter? I've been attacked and have attacked all kinds in Fel. Reason being is guild rules sometimes dictate such things, whether an enemy of the guild or not.

People can't really complain if they're paying a subscription fee to play a game. Don't like it? Go play one of the crumby games that is free to play, because most times these are pay to win games. Outlaw play has to be encouraged in a game and it's not now when basically I can run in any zone with my blacksmith that has no recall or sacred journey. I can do this and not worry about being attacked. Now that's food for thought.
 

Archnight

Legendary Merchant & Rare Collector
Professional
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Point is that this game has been in severe decline for years now. Not sure what brought me back a few months ago but i damn sure know why im not renewing any subscriptions.
Yes, blues taking counts over and over then instantly going back to trammel rulesets is lame. When most of the few remaining players are born of trammel you can see why the policy making for fel is so messed up. Fel should have stayed the path more towards original/real uo but most true fel players were pushed out long ago which is why Fel policy is pretty much influenced by Trammies that only play in Fel part time and whos whole attitude isn't what is best for fel but rather what is best for themselves. That is why we no longer have the spirit of UO and have the abomination of UO that we have today. Noone should be fooled UO is not UO anymore and has not been for a long time.
So if that's the case then why isn't Siege the most populated shard now? The game is still around because of Tram and the other lands, people have an option to PVP on prodo shards by going to Fel if they please. Fel only ruleset would have killed this game a long time ago and the proof is in the numbers, just log into Siege/Mugen to see :D
 

Smoot

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So if that's the case then why isn't Siege the most populated shard now? The game is still around because of Tram and the other lands, people have an option to PVP on prodo shards by going to Fel if they please. Fel only ruleset would have killed this game a long time ago and the proof is in the numbers, just log into Siege/Mugen to see :D
because since tram the game has been tailored to rely on insurance. that means relying on items.

siege and mugen were abandoned in terms of game development. mirroring the way you get items, and the power of those items ruined siege. as well as allowing blessed items like invasion spellbooks that cost Atlantic gold equivilant of 1 platinum plus.

short version is, you cant have an item based game where you risk losing your items. this puts a massive disparity between the established siege players that have stockpiled legendaries, as well as extremely powerful blessed items and non-spawning pets and those who just want to try it out.

Another huge one. pet bonding and and stealth. again, the new additions to tram-based prodection shards (specifically ninjitsu mastery) makes stealthers even more undetectable than they were a year ago. (with new mastery taking damage does not even break stealth)

so no one wants to pvp against a bonded pet that the person cant lose.

no one wants to just wander around aimlessly looking for stealthers youll never see

no one wants to compete against the established pvpers with rare blessed items that give them the edge and cant be taken.

these are the reason siege is even more of a non-pvp server than the production servers.
 
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