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Enhanced client impression from old vet...

Parnoc

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Why do we have this continual discussion? If you don't like EC don't use it, If you don't like CC, don't use it, use the one you like and stow all the bickering back and forth. I love Stratics and learning things about the game, let's get back to that and forget all this headbashing.
 
I think this discussion reappears again and again, because Ultima Online is a purgatory of sorts in terms of accessibility and popularity, relative to its potential. People who love and play the game care to notice and think about changing that.
 

Parnoc

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I care about the game......a LOT!! I'm just tired of all this fighting over the clients, and this is not helping the state of the game at all, all the bickering is doing is making a lot of people like me angry and nothing constructive is coming of it. I love playing the game, I love reading suggestions of how to play and do it better. Our beloved game is on life support, all the blue sky suggestions are impossible to turn into reality, we have 5 staff.......realism, hello????? They are doing a super job given the enormity of their task and the manpower they have.
 

Thrakkar

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Free shards have achieved what you claim is impossible.
You do not understand. Where did I say, that it is impossible?
If you read my post carefully, you'll notice, that I said, it can be way more time consuming than starting from scratch. And at least two new clients out of three support that.

Besides, the free shard argument is getting stale. Free shards don't have to run a business (at least this is what the name implies). So they can spend as much time as they want on any feature they want. And finishing that implementation can take as much time as needed.
 

The Craftsman

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I care about the game......a LOT!! I'm just tired of all this fighting over the clients, and this is not helping the state of the game at all, all the bickering is doing is making a lot of people like me angry and nothing constructive is coming of it. I love playing the game, I love reading suggestions of how to play and do it better. Our beloved game is on life support, all the blue sky suggestions are impossible to turn into reality, we have 5 staff.......realism, hello????? They are doing a super job given the enormity of their task and the manpower they have.
This is an online forum. It stimulates discussion and debate which are good things. I dont see any fighting here or the mods having to step in. Just good healthy discussion and debate. Whats wrong with that?
 
I understand some are tired of this discussion. I'd say, don't visit the thread then. As i said, I'm on Atlantic and I see a few vets from 6-13 years ago returning every single day. I am not sure if emails are sent out or if the millions who played it just revisit and open their accounts due to fond memories. Ultima Online had and continues to have a magic that is hard to overstate. I know the current team is very small and as I've said earlier in this thread, I commend them for their work. In fact, I have a hard time imagining how they are managing 2 clients with such a small team. They are indeed miracle workers and this thread is not designed to bash them...or to bash any client for that matter. I get some people prefer one and others prefer the other. That's fine. Anyhow, thinking about dropping a client and such is precisely because the team is small. For the non-developers among us, though, if free shards show great modifications are possible to the 2D client then we can't continue to say it's impossible. You got to understand that developers have their favorite languages, frameworks, etc. This can simply be a case of the current developers absolutely hating the old client code language and other related technical things, while another set of developers could work their magic with it. In any case, I have now gotten so curious that I'm going to investigate what's under the hood of this engine myself...
 

PaithanTheElf

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
CC needs to have the same benefits as Enhanced. Period. There should not be one client that runs faster. I can't believe that is ok with people seeing as how people survive by running away most of the time.
 

Thrakkar

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I am not sure if emails are sent out or if the millions who played it just revisit and open their accounts due to fond memories.
Millions? Seriously? UO peaked at 250k subscribed accounts.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Ultima Online Published Subscription Numbers | Shroud of the Avatar Forum

Besides, lots of people have/had multiple accounts.
I'd not even bet on it, that UO ever scratched the half a million mark counting all people, who had at least one account paid for at least one month in the last 19 years.

Another interesting read:
So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com
(the no-guild search doesn't work in the new myUO, I tried :p)
 
Millions? Seriously? UO peaked at 250k subscribed accounts.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Ultima Online Published Subscription Numbers | Shroud of the Avatar Forum

Besides, lots of people have/had multiple accounts.
I'd not even bet on it, that UO ever scratched the half a million mark counting all people, who had at least one account paid for at least one month in the last 19 years.

Another interesting read:
So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com
(the no-guild search doesn't work in the new myUO, I tried :p)
Sure, I stand correct on the peak amount of players. So thousands of vets have fond memories and on Atlantic they seem to be popping in almost every day. :)
 

HoneythornGump

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
KR WAS a step in the right direction and should have been continued, honestly it should be revived and replace the EC. And that god awful UI that I am too Stoopid to figure out ;)
The EC & KR UIs are identical. In terms of setting up macros & hotbars it's the exact same.

EC is just more stable, and now has more features which should have been available on day one.

KR had alot of bugs and was plagued by massive memory leaks.

EC is nothing more than a stable version of KR UI with the atrocious low resolution CC graphics imported into the UI.
 
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Lord Arm

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UNLEASHED
the issues for me is, they made EC with pincos so much better/faster. it really screwed the CC users. the only legal program CC can use is uo assist. I would use ec but hurts my eyes. getting old lol. the bottom line is, making one client better than the other is not good for the game. we need to make thing fair. speed/macros is everything in pvp. the only thing I can see to help is really improve cc but not sure if anything will happen. some things pincos can do use to be considered illegal but what do I know whats legal anymore.
 

Uvtha

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You're right but it was 2.5D and called KR, that was a step in the right direction ;)

This promo picture looks way better than the client actually did, sadly. Of course they should have just kept working on it rather than trash it.
 

MalagAste

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the issues for me is, they made EC with pincos so much better/faster. it really screwed the CC users. the only legal program CC can use is uo assist. I would use ec but hurts my eyes. getting old lol. the bottom line is, making one client better than the other is not good for the game. we need to make thing fair. speed/macros is everything in pvp. the only thing I can see to help is really improve cc but not sure if anything will happen. some things pincos can do use to be considered illegal but what do I know whats legal anymore.
Used to hurt my eyes but I adjusted my monitor and the refresh rates and it doesn't bother me anymore. I also turned a lot of the silly stuff off in the EC like particle effects and believe it or not I turned off footsteps... since it is totally NOT in sync...

The EC has so many features that just make it impossible to want to go back to the CC. If they ever fixed the issues with it's Circle of Transparency I'd never ever log into the CC.

But I pretty much had no choice but to use the EC because the CC just doesn't run well on my new computer. It's slow laggy and it seems to studder like doing the 2 step. I can't play like that. While yes it's annoying to have my character "float" along backwards, sideways or whatever sometimes usually if you just stop and retry to move it works fine again.

As for the supposed moving over headstones in Fel you don't really do that but the EC does have a feature that auto skirts you about stuff.... usually it works but sometimes you still get stuck.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The EC & KR UIs are identical. In terms of setting up macros & hotbars it's the exact same.

EC is just more stable, and now has more features which should have been available on day one.

KR had alot of bugs and was plagued by massive memory leaks.

EC is nothing more than a stable version of KR UI with the atrocious low resolution CC graphics imported into the UI.
Sure don't seem identical to me :) Either way makes no difference they put a unfinished product out with KR that yes had a lot of problems and then did it again with EC.
 
Two half-assed clients and cancellation of Ultima Online 2 and Ultima Online:X... can you tell EA has been fumbling with UO for over a decade? They don't understand their own product well. Which is a shame. Especially because they're so much about their bottom line.
 

Dizzy

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I did the CC 10 years ago. I hated the idea of redoing macros and learning a whole new client.

But I came back about 6 months ago and truly gave the EC a chance, without the CC even installed. It's not as speedy as the CC, so I'm not sure I could use it for PVP, but for PVM I'd never go back. The EC is a whiz with instant clothing changes, organizing containers, sorting loot, and more.
 

drcossack

Crazed Zealot
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Stratics Legend
I did the CC 10 years ago. I hated the idea of redoing macros and learning a whole new client.

But I came back about 6 months ago and truly gave the EC a chance, without the CC even installed. It's not as speedy as the CC, so I'm not sure I could use it for PVP, but for PVM I'd never go back. The EC is a whiz with instant clothing changes, organizing containers, sorting loot, and more.
In a straight line, running in the EC isn't any different. But when people are turning, the difference is EASY to notice. When I first saw EC turning in action after 7 years away, I thought it was speedhacking. It's supposed to be excellent for pvp, but I myself do not use it due to the ugliness.
 

kelmo

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... It's supposed to be excellent for pvp, but I myself do not use it due to the ugliness.
Then may you die a thousand beautiful deaths. *smiles*
 

Gamer_Goblin

Sage
Stratics Veteran
I like EC. :) It took a long time for me to realize it and it couldn't be done while trying to use both. I couldn't get over the uneasiness of using the classic style bags in EC, but when I swapped to grid and actually explored everything in EC to customize it, I liked it a lot more. You have to really commit because UO and vets are forcing you to straddle both instead of fully going into one or the other. Both are good and I certainly don't want either shut off because frankly it's people that like CC that have kept this game alive while I take huge long breaks and barely maintain an account.
 

DreadLord Lestat

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An irrelevant analogy. Each side of a twix is identical, the two clients certainly are not.
The thought is the same, pick one, play it, enjoy it. This is an argument that will never be won yet there are all kinds of threads on it.
 

grimiz

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Ryz - I understand your dislike of the EC art and animations - but a huge feature of the EC is that you can mod pretty much everything in the UI. So shame on you for complaining about the UI as a developer :p Sure you shouldn't HAVE to mod it for it to be usable, but it is still something you have control over. And if you think the CC UI is so much better, just take a look at the VvV gump.

As far as client support and maintenance, I invite you all to take a look at the install folder for EC and CC.

EC = Ultima Online Stygian Abyss
CC = Ultima Online Legacy

For you non developers, here's the definition of legacy code: "a big pile of **** that other developers wrote who are no longer here and didn't leave any good design documentation and/or comments so we have no clue what to do with now. So we'll just start from scratch (because we think we know better!) and sunset this spaghetti code when someone isn't looking."
 

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I think we can all agree the EC graphics are bad
I can't, actually, at least not completely. As a nearly life-long Ultima fan (I began with Ultima III, fourteen years before UO), yes, you got me there; the creature models do bother me. For the first time in Ultima's storied history, a development team looked at all the franchise's bestiaries, then threw them on a fire and said, "Meh." Thus, the EC is filled with trolls that I'm guessing resemble [miniature] Scandinavian mythology (rather than Garriott's Sosarian trolls), dragons that suddenly became Eastern-mythologized with the release of the client (rather than Garriott's Western-mythologized, Sosarian dragons), Headless monsters with--wait for it--dismembered heads (Protip: Sosarian Headless monsters come into existence without heads), Ettins that have suddenly shrunk to become the height of humans, and the list goes on, and on, and on.

It's not nostalgia. Feeling wistful for 1997's graphics? I'm sorry, y'all, but give me a break. No, the chip on my shoulder is there because the team that developed the EC was totally and completely apathetic with regards to the franchise, and this is probably half the reason I still play the CC about half the time. Because, while its graphics aren't as advanced, its art direction is faithful toward the source material. I half-suspect that, one day, some former dev will admit during an interview or forum post that many of the EC's mobiles were borrowed from some unrelated, cancelled game in order to save EA money.

Having said that, though, the environments--the grass, the roads, the mountains, the dungeons, things like that--are truly refreshing to look at, and have given me hundreds of hours of enjoyment, exploring Britannia and other facets anew. This, coupled with the EC's vastly customizable user interface and ease of use [once you've climbed up its learning curve], largely account for the reasons I play the EC about half the time, too.

The client we need just never got made. A client that would marry the best aspects of the EC with the CC--and then give players total customization of their experience; even if that meant the CC's look and feel coupled with the EC's customizable UI. That's why we really have these fights--why we can't stop. Because we're still fans, and subconsciously we know there's still work that the game deserves, but will never get. Because the big money has run out.
 

MalagAste

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Exactly! I have always wondered why they make yellow crotch rockets....
Same reason they like to make really fast cars bright red... its like putting out a signal flare to the cops saying "Oh look at me!" Like the people that put glass packs on their truck and drive like a idiot... and wonder why the cops keep pulling them over and ticketing them.
 

Aran

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
That's weird, I haven't gotten a ticket since like 2005 and I've been riding brightly colored motorcycles and drove a turbocharged convertible for a while and my Civic was bright red and...
 

drcossack

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Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Then may you die a thousand beautiful deaths. *smiles*
I've had no problem killing EC users in the past. Until they start running and make Usain Bolt look like a sloth. At that point I give up.
 

Aran

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yeah okay, if that is what you have to tell yourself
I paid $700 for that Ninja 250 for my wife to learn to ride on. It can do 90+ on the highway with my fat ass on it, and still gets over 50MPG.

Taste is irrelevant. I'll probably be able to sell it for twice what I paid for it next spring when my wife is comfortable riding.
 

Spartan

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Same reason they like to make really fast cars bright red... its like putting out a signal flare to the cops saying "Oh look at me!" Like the people that put glass packs on their truck and drive like a idiot... and wonder why the cops keep pulling them over and ticketing them.
Actually I have owned 2 gray cars and 2 red ones over the last few years ... the gray cars got the tickets. I read somewhere that gray cars (all shades) are actually ticketed more as their drivers tend to think they are invisible or something and figure they can go fast.

All I know for sure is that my 30-something son and his gray cars got 3 tickets real fast ... whereas my red ones and the current black one got none.
 

grimiz

Sage
Stratics Veteran
That's weird, I haven't gotten a ticket since like 2005 and I've been riding brightly colored motorcycles and drove a turbocharged convertible for a while and my Civic was bright red and...
We get it, we get it. You really crave attention. Let's get back on topic!
 

Flagg

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Millions? Seriously? UO peaked at 250k subscribed accounts.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Ultima Online Published Subscription Numbers | Shroud of the Avatar Forum

Besides, lots of people have/had multiple accounts.
I'd not even bet on it, that UO ever scratched the half a million mark counting all people, who had at least one account paid for at least one month in the last 19 years.

Another interesting read:
So Just How Many Players Are There in UO? | UOJournal.com
(the no-guild search doesn't work in the new myUO, I tried :p)

To be fair, I think it is pretty likely that something like total of one million people have bought and tried UO at some point or another. It's just that we never had more than 250k of them in at once.



It is astonishing and sad they never managed to replace or update the classic client. Three seperate efforts to replace it. Each failing miserably.

From clarity hindsight affords us, I think it is clear what should have been done. Which always is so easy and unfair to point out like 10+++ years after the relevant ships sailed. I think best option would have been a complete, total recoding of Classic Client from ground up. Modern code with modern day solutions. With special attention given to to hax resistance, in-game shop and easy modifiability by current devs, coming devs and Game Masters in mind. And, here is the kicker, even though underneath-the-hood bits get updated to something modern and coherent, the actual end user experience could have stayed more or less 1:1 identical to the client we still have. Look, feel, all of that exactly the same. Only written in modern code. ..And THEN, from there on update and rebuild and tweak it bit by bit.
 
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Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
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I think best option would have been a complete, total recoding of Classic Client from ground up. Modern code with modern day solutions.
Would have certainly been the thing to do. The CC UI has been a winner, different code making it work wouldn't have been any problem.
 
To be fair, I think it is pretty likely that something like total of one million people have bought and tried UO at some point or another. It's just that we never had more than 250k of them in at once.



It is astonishing and sad they never managed to replace or update the classic client. Three seperate efforts to replace it. Each failing miserably.

From clarity hindsight affords us, I think it is clear what should have been done. Which always is so easy and unfair to point out like 10+++ years after the relevant ships sailed. I think best option would have been a complete, total recoding of Classic Client from ground up. Modern code with modern day solutions. With special attention given to to hax resistance, in-game shop and easy modifiability by current devs, coming devs and Game Masters in mind. And, here is the kicker, even though underneath-the-hood bits get updated to something modern and coherent, the actual end user experience could have stayed more or less 1:1 identical to the client we still have. Look, feel, all of that exactly the same. Only written in modern code. ..And THEN, from there on update and rebuild and tweak it bit by bit.
Free shards show it would have been possible. Also, don't forget that they managed to update the classic client with the content and features they had to update it with so far. And with time they could have vastly upgraded the fidelity of the engine and the assets. Right now Ultima Online still has great potential but is hampered by a lot of accessibility problems. It's really been unnecessary. No one understood the mmorpg market back then or its magic and EA never really did. The crazy bit is that after all those misfires a great vision and sufficient resources could revive Ultima Online. Minecraft is huge due to the potential of the sandbox (in the most general sense). Blizzard tapped into the themepark market. UO could sweep up semi-casuals, secondlife type of people, and lots of the deeper mmorpg market...with the right vision. Sacrificing nothing, only become better and richer.

There are countless games with isometric perspectives that are thriving today. And they're not all uber casual. The new player experience right now is daunting. Were it not for the magic I remembered and knowledge from 13 years ago, I would have not persisted in getting everything set up now.

The entire path from discovery, account set up, feature purchase to entering the game, new player experience...is riddled with frustrating bumps. Sorry to be so dramatic, but I weep for UO. Difficult to see a beloved game that in spite of all the mismanagement, has survived to this day, yet squandered its potential...
 
I talked to a GM today. I implored him to work on the 2D client. I also suggested that maybe, if they would do a huge upgrade to it, they could charge something for it. Didn't mention sums, but I'm thinking 10 bucks. So they can afford it. If they throw some serious cool stuff and some content in the mix...people won't be so pissed. And also, to petition the player base on this. However, something is in the works I was told! So.....how you like them apples? ;)



He did say "No promises yet"... but still: :danceb:
 

Uriah Heep

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I talked to a GM today. I implored him to work on the 2D client. I also suggested that maybe, if they would do a huge upgrade to it, they could charge something for it. Didn't mention sums, but I'm thinking 10 bucks. So they can afford it. If they throw some serious cool stuff and some content in the mix...people won't be so pissed. And also, to petition the player base on this. However, something is in the works I was told! So.....how you like them apples? ;)



He did say "No promises yet"... but still: :danceb:
I've never ran one, but I am told that some peeps (nameless) are using third party progs now that let them enlarge the screen with very few side effects :p
 

Spartan

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GMs != Devs
While a GM may know something is in the works, this is a true statement. I don't believe a dev would double-duty ad GM or vice versa. I was GM on an old MUCK and a dev on the same game. The two never mixed ... my dev was strictly OOC and disavowed all knowledge of GM Cobra (my GM side).
 
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