Enhanced client impression from old vet...

[Phantasmagorian]

I tested the Enhanced Client today. And, in my humble opinion, it sucks. The sliding instead of walking, the clunky UI which feels and looks like's been designed by 3 different people. I am sure for most, I don't need to go on. And I am sure in many ways it was a valiant attempt to update an old engine with painful technical constraints. This admirable and I'm not trying to be an ass. It's just hat the result is not up to par and maintaining two versions is too much for a small dev team. I'm amazed they can even bear it at all. And I'm also sure there are some who enjoy some of the improvements. However, I think the dev team should drop support for the Enhanced Client entirely....and start working on updating the 2d client. Add a proper map or integrate uoAM. Add spellbars. Add stretching of game screen, etc. The 2D client looks way better and definitely today, where many games thrive endlessly without flashy 3D, will stand out with it's unique Ultima graphics. 2D art can be beautiful. Both true to the Ultima series, great to market and a better and consistent, single base to work with...I think the best way to go would be reinvigorating the 2d client.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

*looks towards the op*

Get ready for da onslaught...

 

[mana hit]

*looks towards the op*

Get ready for da onslaught...

lol

 

[Varingian]

Are you just trying to get a 'ryz' out of everyone? *yawns and moves on to the next thread*

 

[Lord Trollo]

allright the gloves are off and malagaste is probably already halfway finished with a 5000 word thesis reply on this very subject. make sure you have your reading glasses, coffee and bullet proof vest ready because you sir have just started a war.

winter is coming.

 

[Yadd of Legends]

Nah, no war. Tired of this one already. Although I see it got a few likes. : yawn :

 

[Goodmann]

will be no onslaught. 10% prefer the EC while 90% love the CC

 

[Tyrath]

Every couple of months I play the EC for about a week and start out with a open mind and trying to love it, that quickly dwindles to just trying to like the EC and finally a return to the CC. Don't have anything against the people that like or even love it, but for me it is just a steaming dog pile.

 

[Tanivar]

The OP, another observant soul. *yawns at this hour*

Those who buy the 50/50 official PR client babble Mesanna has mentioned are going to go ape bananas over this. *yawns*

*unwatches thread*

 

[Goodmann]

The OP, another observant soul. *yawns at this hour*

Those who buy the 50/50 official PR client babble Mesanna has mentioned are going to go ape bananas over this. *yawns*

*unwatches thread*

gotta say the right things just like politics

 

[MalagAste]

allright the gloves are off and malagaste is probably already halfway finished with a 5000 word thesis reply on this very subject. make sure you have your reading glasses, coffee and bullet proof vest ready because you sir have just started a war.

winter is coming.

Nope... soon as they shut off the EC I'm done. But it's not going to happen.

 

[Phantasmagorian]

The things enjoyed in the Enhanced Client can be put in the 2d client. The EC client cannot be saved. I've looked through the threads and the state of EC since day one (Youtube vids)... it'll never be aesthetically sensible and user-friendly. It's just a mess.

If I were the dev team, I would put all resources on enhancing the current 2d client with modern mmo features that nicely blend with the current ones. Whatever limitations the old client had, can be overcome, especially because of the vastly improved hardware. It really will not attract new players either. A handful of improvements for the 2d client, such as a higher resolution/zoom, would help a lot. I've actually talked to to two new people that I convinced to play UO in the recent days, and they hated the EC. Which is no surprise. They actually preferred lowering their desktop resolution and playing the 2D client. As do I.

A a bit of an engine rewrite for the 2D client will be less painful than maintaining this Frankenstein of an engine that is the Enhanced Client.

 

[petemage]

Played 5 Years in 1998 to 2003. Been back for a couple of days. Starts Stratics thread on shard consolidations. Start Stratics thread on EC vs. CC.

I would also like to hear your opinion on EM events..

 

[Phantasmagorian]

It says "impressions", doesn't it. And first impression are absolutely not good, and for any seasoned gamer ( also happen to be a developer), a pretty clear lost case. The dismay of new players I've talked regarding the EC is also a pretty obvious red flag. I am not sure more time spent with the Enhanced Client will help erode its glaring problems. Still, point taken. Don't be mad, plz.

 

[Finley Grant]

@OP. And?

 

[superfrog]

To be fair, they both suck . . .

 

[MalagAste]

The things enjoyed in the Enhanced Client can be put in the 2d client. The EC client cannot be saved. I've looked through the threads and the state of EC since day one (Youtube vids)... it'll never be aesthetically sensible and user-friendly. It's just a mess.

If I were the dev team, I would put all resources on enhancing the current 2d client with modern mmo features that nicely blend with the current ones. Whatever limitations the old client had, can be overcome, especially because of the vastly improved hardware. It really will not attract new players either. A handful of improvements for the 2d client, such as a higher resolution/zoom, would help a lot. I've actually talked to to two new people that I convinced to play UO in the recent days, and they hated the EC. Which is no surprise. They actually preferred lowering their desktop resolution and playing the 2D client. As do I.

A a bit of an engine rewrite for the 2D client will be less painful than maintaining this Frankenstein of an engine that is the Enhanced Client.

They won't be put in there.... the DEVs have already stated that they aren't going to be adding functions to the CC and that they are going to keep them both. You can't put most the functions into the old client that's why DEV teams have been trying for years to get rid of it.... the old spaghetti strings of code in there are difficult if not impossible to work with since much of the documentation on them has been lost long ago.

And the major problem is the vastly improved hardware is just too much for the old client...

All they really need to do is put all the craptastic art from the old client into the EC and so all you throwbacks can keep your look and then scrap the 2d client and keep the modern one.

 

[Uvtha]

I tested the Enhanced Client today. And, in my humble opinion, it sucks. The sliding instead of walking, the clunky UI which feels and looks like's been designed by 3 different people. I am sure for most, I don't need to go on. And I am sure in many ways it was a valiant attempt to update an old engine with painful technical constraints. This admirable and I'm not trying to be an ass. It's just hat the result is not up to par and maintaining two versions is too much for a small dev team. I'm amazed they can even bear it at all. And I'm also sure there are some who enjoy some of the improvements. However, I think the dev team should drop support for the Enhanced Client entirely....and start working on updating the 2d client. Add a proper map or integrate uoAM. Add spellbars. Add stretching of game screen, etc. The 2D client looks way better and definitely today, where many games thrive endlessly without flashy 3D, will stand out with it's unique Ultima graphics. 2D art can be beautiful. Both true to the Ultima series, great to market and a better and consistent, single base to work with...I think the best way to go would be reinvigorating the 2d client.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

They won't be put in there.... the DEVs have already stated that they aren't going to be adding functions to the CC and that they are going to keep them both. You can't put most the functions into the old client that's why DEV teams have been trying for years to get rid of it.... the old spaghetti strings of code in there are difficult if not impossible to work with since much of the documentation on them has been lost long ago.

Agreed, the Devs have stated that on a few things but, the fine folks at Tugsoft have said they are willing to try and add some of the things from EC to UOAssist.. my money would be on them being able to pull it off.

 

[superfrog]

 

[Prince Erik]

Actually what I'd love to see is the reverse - put all development resources into improving the EC to fix all the things that CC players hate about it, then remove the CC.

-P.E.

 

[kelmo]

What are we going to do today,Stratics?

 

[Phantasmagorian]

Actually what I'd love to see is the reverse - put all development resources into improving the EC to fix all the things that CC players hate about it, then remove the CC.

-P.E.

I honestly don't think that's realistic. Not kidding.

 

[Uvtha]

I honestly don't think that's realistic. Not kidding.

It's more realistic than the reverse, lets be honest.

 

[Riyana]

 

[Archnight]

2D art can be beautiful

You're right but it was 2.5D and called KR, that was a step in the right direction

 

[Eärendil]

IF UO would look like this today.... Ahhh. Lovely!

 

[Tyrath]

You're right but it was 2.5D and called KR, that was a step in the right direction

KR WAS a step in the right direction and should have been continued, honestly it should be revived and replace the EC. And that god awful UI that I am too Stoopid to figure out

 

[Uriah Heep]

You can't put most the functions into the old client that's why DEV teams have been trying for years to get rid of it.... the old spaghetti strings of code in there are difficult if not impossible to work with since much of the documentation on them has been lost long ago.

MalagAste is right on this, the devs cannot make the CC better.
However, the coders of the freeshards can...go figure

 

[GarthGrey]

I log on with the EC every once in a while and go "damn, I wish the CC could do this, and do that , and Ooooohhhh didn't know it could do that". But the look of the game is still what kills it for me. I love the speed, but just can't get past the awful graphics. And the devs know exactly how many people are logging on with cc vs ec, and they've known it since they added that metrix file or whatever its called. We all know they sat around a table that first day that they received all of the numbers on cc vs ec logins, and they're jaws dropped. 50/50 is garbage, if that we're anywhere near the truth the devs would have jumped all over the opportunity to show it to us, but they didn't. The cc is still here because they know its the mass percentage of players choice of client, for whatever reason.

 

[Phantasmagorian]

IT's because the enhanced client is a mess. The dev team, from what I hear, is small, so I am sure they deal with a lot of pressure and constraints here. Nevertheless, as someone pointed out regarding the free shards, the cc can definitely be updated. Sure, the CC is dated, but with a whole bunch of updates it could be glorious (larger screen, zoom, ui additions, etc.).. It's not a question of technical possibility, it's a question of resources, will and vision.

 

[bsluspo]

But what if they gave players the possibility to use the KR client again ?
This is the plan:
first let users play with KR client again, but keep the classic client and the enhanced client too
then keep statistics about client usage for a few months
finally, if they see that (as i think) 60% of users user KR, 35% use classic and 5% use enhanced, throw the enhanced client away

 

[MalagAste]

But what if they gave players the possibility to use the KR client again ?
This is the plan:
first let users play with KR client again, but keep the classic client and the enhanced client too
then keep statistics about client usage for a few months
finally, if they see that (as i think) 60% of users user KR, 35% use classic and 5% use enhanced, throw the enhanced client away

Problem is that plan not that I hate it... is that the KR client was only half done. Though it had way better features than even the EC... such as being able to switch characters on your house list up and down from Co-owner to friend and such... I also don't think it had limits on how many co-owners you had either... Which I personally loved.

The only things I hated about it was that Chests as you know everyone neatly stacks along a wall looked more like a swaybacked nag than a chest... and it made the stacks of chest look terrible. And the Asian themed wood that I use and prefer that IMO looks much like a rich cherrywood looked more like something out of an old barn in the KR client which totally looked terrible. I really wish I still had the pictures from back then but I don't... that and the biggest issue of all was the inability to see where a tree began and the grass was... it all just blended together terribly..

 

[Aran]

I tested the Enhanced Client today. And, in my humble opinion, it sucks. The sliding instead of walking, the clunky UI which feels and looks like's been designed by 3 different people. I am sure for most, I don't need to go on. And I am sure in many ways it was a valiant attempt to update an old engine with painful technical constraints. This admirable and I'm not trying to be an ass. It's just hat the result is not up to par and maintaining two versions is too much for a small dev team. I'm amazed they can even bear it at all. And I'm also sure there are some who enjoy some of the improvements. However, I think the dev team should drop support for the Enhanced Client entirely....and start working on updating the 2d client. Add a proper map or integrate uoAM. Add spellbars. Add stretching of game screen, etc. The 2D client looks way better and definitely today, where many games thrive endlessly without flashy 3D, will stand out with it's unique Ultima graphics. 2D art can be beautiful. Both true to the Ultima series, great to market and a better and consistent, single base to work with...I think the best way to go would be reinvigorating the 2d client.

Yeah it's absolute trash.

 

[Lord Frodo]

But what if they gave players the possibility to use the KR client again ?
This is the plan:
first let users play with KR client again, but keep the classic client and the enhanced client too
then keep statistics about client usage for a few months
finally, if they see that (as i think) 60% of users user KR, 35% use classic and 5% use enhanced, throw the enhanced client away

%60 cant use the KR Client because there were so many problems that could not be identified to any single thing. 2 players with same system and one could play and one couldn't and EA/UO had no clue as to why. Put the KR/CC/EC art on a toggle with the EC and see how many people use it.

 

[Tyrath]

KR Client did have problems, it worked well for me on one computer and not at all on my other two and all three computers were identical hardware and OS. It needed a lot more work but most likely could have been hammered into a fully functional client. LOL I was going through a old CD case a few days ago and found a CD I burned with the KR Beta.

 

[Ender]

It's funny how people call it a clunky UI when it works better than the CC in almost every way and they proceed to ask for features from it to be added to the CC.

Also walking is terrible in the classic client, it's so jerky it actually hurts to play.

 

[Tyrath]

It's funny how people call it a clunky UI when it works better than the CC in almost every way and they proceed to ask for features from it to be added to the CC.

Also walking is terrible in the classic client, it's so jerky it actually hurts to play.

EC has some great features, that does not overcome the fact that it is UGLY. If it were so great everyone would be using it, the fact that a large % think it is junk speaks volumes.

 

[Hannes Erich]

All they really need to do is put all the craptastic art from the old client into the EC and so all you throwbacks can keep your look and then scrap the 2d client and keep the modern one.

One big problem here (just one of them) is the "sliding" effect--as many players call it--that's coded into the EC; that's not only an animation/sound-syncing issue, but [I suspect] a poorly expressed horizontal axis in the EC. So they could put the CC's art into the EC, but I guarantee you, CC users would still call shenanigans. And, being as neutral as possible, I couldn't really blame them.

MalagAste is right on this, the devs cannot make the CC better.
However, the coders of the freeshards can...go figure

People, please stop spreading this around, because it's a purely ignorant misrepresentation of the facts. And this is coming from somebody who's had his nose in the emulation source and scripts. Every continuously evolving player-run server has eventually had to face the music if they wanted to upgrade their source code significantly--the dreaded world wipe.

There's a reason that no feature-competitive player run server exists that is as old as the official servers. I've pointed this out before--to Uriah Heep and many others--and I've even written explanations-in-English to describe the technical issues involved. But the same people keep plugging their ears and spreading the same misinformation, year after year. Which is pretty blatantly against the forum rules.

The devil in the details is that if Broadsword decided to upgrade its server code to modern standards, we would be giving up our current account investments. We would be playing on new servers with new code. If you want to experience that level of incompatibility for yourself, go try to stick an old video card from 2000 into a motherboard from 2016, and let me know how that works out for you.

The reason UO still runs on plenty of old code is because it's fair to assume that most players would like to keep their years worth of characters and all the pixels they've invested in. Player-run servers have no such obligation to their users. In fact, player-run servers have zero obligation to their users. If you really think this is all just small details and not really worth mentioning in posts like the one quoted, well I hope the weather's nice in Crazy Land.

 

[Tyrath]

I often wonder if a world wipe and starting over from ZERO would not be good thing. Of course that means building everything server side from the ground up and up to speed with modern code. BUT 5-10-15 years down the road the problems will arise again as hardware and software evolves and improves. UO has one strength and it might only be for a niche market but that is its history and classic feel and the things unique to UO. A world wipe is in essence the end of history for UO. UO2 would be the more logical step and keep UO running as a classic niche game with limited support. I suspect most of us would eventually migrate to the more modern game or more likely in my case just hang gaming up all together.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

keep UO running as a classic niche game with limited support.

Errrrrr... if we only have 4 devs now ain't that exactly what we have now?? Only without the UO2

 

[Hannes Erich]

Btw, oops I meant vertical axis.

You know, if this were maybe 7 to 10 years ago, but I had today's hindsight, I would actually suggest they scrap KR (despite its total sexiness) and create an entirely different sort of client. One that was utterly faithful to the CC's retro appeal--even down to the movement and animation, and a few harmless but familiar bugs; basically, the same level of dedication to fidelity that a hardware emulator must express. So that CC users would not be able to notice any difference.

But with two exceptions. One, the options to zoom in and out of clean, high-res classic graphics (ala Sephireena); and two, the options to customize your own UI with either visible hotbars (ala EC) or hotkeys (ala CC/UOA). The clearest lesson that has come out of the evolution of UI development is that people want options, while other people want the option not to embrace said change.

So, why side with retro appeal? Well, my old self would want to slap my newer, smarter self for saying this, but it's true--because the game never really had a chance to remain competitive in the ARPG/ARPG-MMO genre. Unlike EVE's occasional facelift, UO has too many factors playing against it in that arena, notably EA's Jurassic culture and the rapid evolution of the ARPG genre. Whereas retro continues to be good-old retro, except increasingly, insanely popular year after year.

But there's one thing no one ever brings up in these discussions--maybe because it's a scary obstacle for the CC and Steam, or maybe because people just don't think--technology's ability to render "retro" more cleanly and with better surrounding features must still compete. Sure, retro is retro, but retro user interfaces will simply never be hot. It's probably not too popular to say, but this is exactly why I actually doubt we'll ever see UO on Steam.

Because the real problem is: since the EC wasn't designed to finely emulate older software...and since the CC can't handle newer software's UI requirements...there just isn't going to be any dramatic improvement to the clients without a new client or a sequel. Not in any universe where the pesky laws of physics apply. And 19 years on is a little late to be hoping for a new client that could resolve these technical limitations.

 

[MalagAste]

If the wipe was to give us a true 3d experience with new updated things like from Voxel Farms and where it worked more like Landmark to place a plot and build and the mining and lumberjacking like is there..... along with them making gameplay specific shards that are geologically friendly as in if I live in Japan or US or Europe I can still get a good ping rate etc.... but having PvM styled shards, PvP and Role-play oriented shards and such then Yes I'd be behind a wipe 100%... but with 1 real DEV Engineer and 1 artist... yeah don't really see that happening... ever.

 

[Hannes Erich]

Plus, at that point you're really asking for a sequel, not a server upgrade; some of those things are very outside the UO framework.

I kind of think UO/Origin/Mythic/EA/etc, dropped the ball way back, when they should have started to treat player-run server technology as competition. But again, hindsight is 20/20. They should have developed new servers with new code, but kept the legacy servers running too, and given us options. Five, even ten years in, I bet you anything a lot of players would have ditched the servers we're on now to play better servers with better features and broader expansions. They physically just don't have the resources for it now. Even if they did, how many of you want to ditch 20 years of investment on your shards?

But just imagine what could have been. An official code base upgrade with actual QA, and maybe some new server benefits tied to your legacy accounts. Heck, maybe they could have eventually devised some way to compare the old databases to the new databases, and get at least 80% of your character data, like skills and belongings, converted into data on the new server.

You know, sometimes I really wish the devs would just post and be frank and rattle on about possibilities like this, how much of it could have been feasible under the right conditions. But, I respect the reasons why they don't, as far as I can imagine what those reasons may be.

 

[Thrakkar]

I tested the Enhanced Client today. And, in my humble opinion, it sucks. The sliding instead of walking, the clunky UI which feels and looks like's been designed by 3 different people. I am sure for most, I don't need to go on. And I am sure in many ways it was a valiant attempt to update an old engine with painful technical constraints. This admirable and I'm not trying to be an ass. It's just hat the result is not up to par and maintaining two versions is too much for a small dev team. I'm amazed they can even bear it at all. And I'm also sure there are some who enjoy some of the improvements. However, I think the dev team should drop support for the Enhanced Client entirely....and start working on updating the 2d client. Add a proper map or integrate uoAM. Add spellbars. Add stretching of game screen, etc. The 2D client looks way better and definitely today, where many games thrive endlessly without flashy 3D, will stand out with it's unique Ultima graphics. 2D art can be beautiful. Both true to the Ultima series, great to market and a better and consistent, single base to work with...I think the best way to go would be reinvigorating the 2d client.

You don't really get it like so many others. Extending and enhancing old software can easily mean, that it can take quadruple the time of writing it new from scratch or even way more.
I'm pretty sure OSI/Mythic/EA weighted their options carefully and went for the "write it new from scratch"-approach. Two times actually (not counting the 3rd Dawn client, as this had at least another technical approach) That alone speaks volumes.

Fancy new features for the CC? Not going to happen...
Stop dreaming and wake up...

 

[Spiritless]

hay guyz, my client is better than ur client. u mad?

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Nope... soon as they shut off the EC I'm done. But it's not going to happen.

No one cares.


Turn off EC! SUPPORT FOR CLASSIC!

 

[Hannes Erich]

hay guyz, my client is better than ur client. u mad?

I play and enjoy both, pretty much depending on my mood.



Mind blown?

 

[superfrog]

Sneak-peak of a new client being developed . . .

 

[Phantasmagorian]

You don't really get it like so many others. Extending and enhancing old software can easily mean, that it can take quadruple the time of writing it new from scratch or even way more.
I'm pretty sure OSI/Mythic/EA weighted their options carefully and went for the "write it new from scratch"-approach. Two times actually (not counting the 3rd Dawn client, as this had at least another technical approach) That alone speaks volumes.

Fancy new features for the CC? Not going to happen...
Stop dreaming and wake up...

There are other indications counter to what you claim, so I am not going stop dreaming and wake up. Free shards have achieved what you claim is impossible. And please don't appeal to my belief in EA's sensibility in decision making because Ultima Online, its engines and successors, have been dropped and cancelled by EA numerous times (UO2, UOX, etc.)...An obvious lack of vision and mismanagement. Now, this game has an immense fanbase, with vets returning almost daily after 6-13 years of being away. There is a lot of untapped potential. The state of UO reeks of "Design by committee" like nothings else. That the dev team is strongly against updating the CC, I did not argue against and that may very well be the case. Which is a damn shame. But as I said earlier, it would not only be a case of will and technical ability (which free shards demonstrate is not some dark magic not be performed by mere mortals), it's also vision and will. And by "vision", I mean realizing the potential and taking the development and marketing on a path maximizes it. Right now, it absolutely is not on such a path.