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Over 200 Britannian Years Since 1997; How Old Is The Average Britannian?

How old is the average Britannian human? (Votes can be changed.)


  • Total voters
    15

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So, I'm bad at math, but I think well over 200 years have passed in Britannia since Ultima Online's launch in 1997*; and over 500 years since Mondain's defeat.

24 Britannian hours every 2 hours
= 12 Britannian days every 24 hours
= 84 Britannian days every week
= 4,368 Britannian days every year
= 78,624 Britannian days every 18 years

78,624 / 365 = ~215 :scholar:

However, that doesn't mean the average lifespan of a Britannian is over 200 years.

That's actually one helluva question. And one that nobody asked, I'll give you that. But hell, it's something to do in-between EC vs CC threads.

Anyone playing now does not represent the average. Our characters are outlying statistics at this point. Most Britannian characters who have ever lived will never be seen again, and haven't been seen in Britannian decades or even a century. Let's declare them Probably Dead By Now (there will always be outliers).

For relative purposes, I'm excluding Elves and Gargoyles in this thought experiment (at least initially), and comparing Britannian days to Earth days; a Britannian calendar month is over twice as long as a month on Western Earth civilization's common calendar (73 days). *So the average Britannian human--and the average lore hound--might argue that only about a century has passed since 1997; understandably so. Of course, the average Britannian wouldn't have any context to refer to 1997, hence the thread title (this is obviously a thread for Earthlings).

So if Sosarian/Britannian humans age similarly to other humans biologically, they would seem to die at an earlier age, but this would be a mere technicality. 30-year-old Britannians would simply be synonymous with 60-year-old Earthlings (making the calendar month longer wouldn't make humans live longer). However, strong magics are common throughout Britannia, which undoubtedly yield mitigating factors upon daily life, including the secrets of youth (and resurrection of course).

This doesn't mean the science of biology is a wash, but it does give players whatever wiggle room they want in determining their characters' apparent youth. And, just to play devil's advocate against myself, it's also possible Ultima/UO's calendar was devised around the idea that Britannians age twice as slowly as Earthlings, but within a time stream which passes 12 times faster than in Earth's universe. This alternative would reflect only about 100 years since 1997--approaching or just past the Britannian Year 400--and it would yield more relatable characters, biologically speaking, before accounting for the effects of magic on health and youth.

The factors above are of course debatable and may influence (or change) votes in the poll. But that's why it's called a discussion thread.

But wait! That's not all!
More importantly, we would need to know the average length of time subscriptions remain active from month to month, especially for those players who never come back. This is called churn. We would need to measure and compare this against the number of active subscriptions across each year, and across the lifetime of the game. We would also need to know the average number of characters created per account, and the number of human NPCs.

In simpler terms, we would need to figure out how many human characters have ever existed upon Britannia, as well as how long each character appears to live on average--excluding temporary deaths which are followed by resurrections--before never being seen again.

Most of the data we'd need is unavailable to players directly. But plenty of industry insider anecdotes exist around the Net (and in books) after 18 years. So a good sleuthing effort might yield evidence, or at least some educated guesses, regarding the average Britannian lifespan.

Because of magic and roleplay and each player's perspective, there are naturally going to be mitigating and exacerbating factors, and some crazy outliers. It's not your job or mine to explain why some player-characters pop back up after 80 Britannian years, or why some roleplayed characters are old but youthful. That's outside the scope of the thought experiment because, frankly, we all know it's just a video game (and one worth returning to). But somewhere in-between all the fiction and variables, there's real account data, real numbers, and thus statistical averages.

If we had, say, a generous hypothetical average of 5 characters per account, it would have resulted in well over a million characters alive at one time during UO's peak, not including NPC humans. But how many characters had already lived and died since then? And how many since? If we can guess these numbers and then measure them against churn, we will have an average character's lifespan.

The game peaked in 2003 at around 250,000 subscriptions with Age of Shadows--that's 100,500 more than it gained after launch for you AoS haters--and afterward began its lengthy decline (A.K.A. the rest of its life). The gaming press was already applying the term market saturation to the MMO industry in the early 2000's, well before WoW even entered the scene. Competition was increasing, yearly growth per title had shrunk from ~50% to ~35%; MMOs were beginning to get canceled before even launching.

I can't imagine how scary those growth numbers look in 2016's dime-a-dozen MMO industry. A proper sleuth might indeed have to investigate subscription numbers for other older MMOs to make an educated guess about some of UO's hard-to-get subscription statistics--especially for recent years.
 

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yep I suspect that fits the "exacerbating factors" category lol (but you never know around here).

And, just to play devil's advocate against myself, it's also possible Ultima/UO's calendar was devised around the idea that Britannians age twice as slowly as Earthlings, but within a time stream which passes 12 times faster than in Earth's universe. This alternative would reflect only about 100 years since 1997--approaching or just past the Britannian Year 400--and it would yield more relatable characters, biologically speaking, before accounting for the effects of magic on health and youth.
I forgot to mention, the game launched in Britannian Year 289, as mentioned in old Stratics records, and UOGuide's page on Time. (UOGuide claims only a century since launch, again because of the 73-day Britannian calendar technicality mentioned in the OP.)

The game launched about 300 years after Mondain's defeat, as seen on a commemorative coin, given to players on the game's second anniversary.
 

Arroth Thaiel

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So, I'm bad at math, but I think well over 200 years have passed in Britannia since Ultima Online's launch in 1997*; and over 500 years since Mondain's defeat.

24 Britannian hours every 2 hours
= 12 Britannian days every 24 hours
= 84 Britannian days every week
= 4,368 Britannian days every year
= 78,624 Britannian days every 18 years

78,624 / 365 = ~215 :scholar:

However, that doesn't mean the average lifespan of a Britannian is over 200 years.

That's actually one helluva question. And one that nobody asked, I'll give you that. But hell, it's something to do in-between EC vs CC threads.

Anyone playing now does not represent the average. Our characters are outlying statistics at this point. Most Britannian characters who have ever lived will never be seen again, and haven't been seen in Britannian decades or even a century. Let's declare them Probably Dead By Now (there will always be outliers).

For relative purposes, I'm excluding Elves and Gargoyles in this thought experiment (at least initially), and comparing Britannian days to Earth days; a Britannian calendar month is over twice as long as a month on Western Earth civilization's common calendar (73 days). *So the average Britannian human--and the average lore hound--might argue that only about a century has passed since 1997; understandably so. Of course, the average Britannian wouldn't have any context to refer to 1997, hence the thread title (this is obviously a thread for Earthlings).

So if Sosarian/Britannian humans age similarly to other humans biologically, they would seem to die at an earlier age, but this would be a mere technicality. 30-year-old Britannians would simply be synonymous with 60-year-old Earthlings (making the calendar month longer wouldn't make humans live longer). However, strong magics are common throughout Britannia, which undoubtedly yield mitigating factors upon daily life, including the secrets of youth (and resurrection of course).

This doesn't mean the science of biology is a wash, but it does give players whatever wiggle room they want in determining their characters' apparent youth. And, just to play devil's advocate against myself, it's also possible Ultima/UO's calendar was devised around the idea that Britannians age twice as slowly as Earthlings, but within a time stream which passes 12 times faster than in Earth's universe. This alternative would reflect only about 100 years since 1997--approaching or just past the Britannian Year 400--and it would yield more relatable characters, biologically speaking, before accounting for the effects of magic on health and youth.

The factors above are of course debatable and may influence (or change) votes in the poll. But that's why it's called a discussion thread.

But wait! That's not all!
More importantly, we would need to know the average length of time subscriptions remain active from month to month, especially for those players who never come back. This is called churn. We would need to measure and compare this against the number of active subscriptions across each year, and across the lifetime of the game. We would also need to know the average number of characters created per account, and the number of human NPCs.

In simpler terms, we would need to figure out how many human characters have ever existed upon Britannia, as well as how long each character appears to live on average--excluding temporary deaths which are followed by resurrections--before never being seen again.

Most of the data we'd need is unavailable to players directly. But plenty of industry insider anecdotes exist around the Net (and in books) after 18 years. So a good sleuthing effort might yield evidence, or at least some educated guesses, regarding the average Britannian lifespan.

Because of magic and roleplay and each player's perspective, there are naturally going to be mitigating and exacerbating factors, and some crazy outliers. It's not your job or mine to explain why some player-characters pop back up after 80 Britannian years, or why some roleplayed characters are old but youthful. That's outside the scope of the thought experiment because, frankly, we all know it's just a video game (and one worth returning to). But somewhere in-between all the fiction and variables, there's real account data, real numbers, and thus statistical averages.

If we had, say, a generous hypothetical average of 5 characters per account, it would have resulted in well over a million characters alive at one time during UO's peak, not including NPC humans. But how many characters had already lived and died since then? And how many since? If we can guess these numbers and then measure them against churn, we will have an average character's lifespan.

The game peaked in 2003 at around 250,000 subscriptions with Age of Shadows--that's 100,500 more than it gained after launch for you AoS haters--and afterward began its lengthy decline (A.K.A. the rest of its life). The gaming press was already applying the term market saturation to the MMO industry in the early 2000's, well before WoW even entered the scene. Competition was increasing, yearly growth per title had shrunk from ~50% to ~35%; MMOs were beginning to get canceled before even launching.

I can't imagine how scary those growth numbers look in 2016's dime-a-dozen MMO industry. A proper sleuth might indeed have to investigate subscription numbers for other older MMOs to make an educated guess about some of UO's hard-to-get subscription statistics--especially for recent years.
42. Once you get the question right.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Should not the pre online box sets be included in these calculations as that is where many of us began :)
 

Dot_Warner

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Governor
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Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Yep I suspect that fits the "exacerbating factors" category lol (but you never know around here).



I forgot to mention, the game launched in Britannian Year 289, as mentioned in old Stratics records, and UOGuide's page on Time. (UOGuide claims only a century since launch, again because of the 73-day Britannian calendar technicality mentioned in the OP.)

The game launched about 300 years after Mondain's defeat, as seen on a commemorative coin, given to players on the game's second anniversary.
The current Britannian year is 522.

The game launched in the year 300, Stratics is wrong about the 289 number. The pre-Alpha started in 289.

This is easily proven when you know that Mondain was defeated in the 24th year of Lord British's reign, which places the 300th Anniversary of his defeat in the year 324. That aligns perfectly with UO's 2nd Anniversary in September '99 (2 Earth years x 12) when the 300th Anniversary was celebrated.

Sosaria, Earth and Kilrah are all in the same universe btw... Modern Sosaria exists sometime during Earth's 26th century.
 

TimberWolf

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Answer...really freaking old....now get off my lawn or I will shoot you with my cannon!
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
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Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
The current Britannian year is 522.

The game launched in the year 300, Stratics is wrong about the 289 number. The pre-Alpha started in 289.

This is easily proven when you know that Mondain was defeated in the 24th year of Lord British's reign, which places the 300th Anniversary of his defeat in the year 324. That aligns perfectly with UO's 2nd Anniversary in September '99 (2 Earth years x 12) when the 300th Anniversary was celebrated.

Sosaria, Earth and Kilrah are all in the same universe btw... Modern Sosaria exists sometime during Earth's 26th century.
This ^^...

Figure every month is a new Year for UO... So if you wanted Seasons in UO they would rotate weekly... Which IMO would be pretty cool...

But fortunately as far as age goes most of my characters are ELVES. So they are young for many, many years...
 

nextwindow

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
obviously only the few people who have been online (no logging out) since launch are that old!
 

Hannes Erich

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The current Britannian year is 522.

The game launched in the year 300, Stratics is wrong about the 289 number. The pre-Alpha started in 289.

This is easily proven when you know that Mondain was defeated in the 24th year of Lord British's reign, which places the 300th Anniversary of his defeat in the year 324. That aligns perfectly with UO's 2nd Anniversary in September '99 (2 Earth years x 12) when the 300th Anniversary was celebrated.
Aha! I was hoping some of the roleplaying community's ambassadors would weigh in. (and I'm always glad to see the RP community best-represented by Great Lakes on Stratics!)

Although I'm a little surprised we're on the same 200-year-ish page, but maybe I shouldn't be. As I admitted in the OP, I chose to ignore the game world's 73-day calendar in order to keep an already complicated subject as relative and as simple as possible. Otherwise, like I said, we'd end up having to wrap our heads around "30-year-old" Britannians who would actually be 60 years old by any definition we're used to in the Western world.

Since it's mostly semantics anyway (Sosaria has a longer trip around its host star, but we still can't affect human biology by putting more days in a month), my poll refers to relative Britannian years: my way of saying, "Okay, let's pretend the Britannian calendar had 30 days just like the Gregorian (Western) calendar." (In case that wasn't clear enough already.)

So it's not hard to imagine why the roleplaying community (at least on Great Lakes) seems to have long-ago adopted my same stance. Especially because reaching the year 522 on the legitimate Britannian calendar, after all, would mean something entirely different from the sort of time trajectory we're all used to visualizing. What a tedious thing to have to explain or think about on a regular basis, right?

I guess my question would be, did the RP community consciously adopt this Earth-centric stance, or did it happen naturally and unconsciously? Although, maybe neither answer will surprise me much, now that I think about it.

Good roleplayers can be adept at forging agreed-upon internal consistency, but sometimes that relies on neutral zones where logic is abandoned for the sake of the fabric as a whole. The Marvel Universe's floating timeline comes to mind. Or, heck, living as a character in a fantasy universe where 200,000 other players can write any history into their character descriptions. I think these neutral zones come second-nature to today's fantasy audiences (especially MMO audiences), so we often don't even need to discuss it.

Sosaria, Earth and Kilrah are all in the same universe btw... Modern Sosaria exists sometime during Earth's 26th century.
I suppose this shouldn't surprise me either, as fantasy authors (and CRPG programmers like Lord British) weren't living in our string-theory obsessed world in the 80's when Ultima's moongates first came about; fantasy worlds and alternate dimensions just weren't something that audiences needed painstakingly differentiated in order to immerse into a good yarn. I suppose Sosaria Prime just has some magical quality that speeds time up in its vicinity. (Which may already be more thought than Lord British ever put into it.)
 

MalagAste

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This really made my day.

Thanks everyone for all the funny or equally nerdy replies to my nerdy OP.

But I hope some of you will consider changing your underwear more often. Just use your imagination!
Well I also always consider that Sosaria is infused with magic... and each shard is infact a magical place... My guess is that perhaps Sosaria spun much faster with the Gem of Immortality controlling it... So the shards would spin at the same odd rate.

But after all being a universe infused with magic many things are more possible and believable than they would have been in medieval Earth European times. So many folk talk about what is and isn't right in the land... but the truth is that since Sosaria is a magical place nothing is really impossible. I see it using magic though more than science since we don't have many sciences represented in Sosaria except perhaps Alchemy and believe it or not Astronomy. Healing is more based on magic than science though you wonder about bandages and healing. I mean I just got ripped open by a dragon and burned to a crispy critter but slap a bandage on it and all is well again. I mean seriously if you went though half what your character did you would be not only covered in scars from head to toe but likely missing more than a few digits or limbs but magic to the rescue and all is well.
 

Dot_Warner

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I forget the name of the designer, but it was around the time of Renaissance that the 73 day a month, 876 day year calendar was sharted out because the guy didn't like the original timescale. However, his 12:5 ratio retcon really doesn't work well with the observable passage of time in the game, thus it should be ignored as the ravings of a madman.
 

Deraj

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The current Britannian year is 522.

The game launched in the year 300, Stratics is wrong about the 289 number. The pre-Alpha started in 289.

This is easily proven when you know that Mondain was defeated in the 24th year of Lord British's reign, which places the 300th Anniversary of his defeat in the year 324. That aligns perfectly with UO's 2nd Anniversary in September '99 (2 Earth years x 12) when the 300th Anniversary was celebrated.

Sosaria, Earth and Kilrah are all in the same universe btw... Modern Sosaria exists sometime during Earth's 26th century.
If Sosaria and Earth inhabit the same universe, how do they operate at different rates of time?
 

Dot_Warner

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If Sosaria and Earth inhabit the same universe, how do they operate at different rates of time?
The easiest answer is, of course, "magic."

That could be broken down to something having to do with the shattering of the Gem of Immortality somehow affecting local spacetime..in effect shattering it as well*.

The timey wimey nature of moongate travel from Earth adds to the weirdness. Every immigrant from Earth who used a moongate comes from the late 20th century. It could be posited that moongate travel time isn't instantaneous, meaning travel from another star system takes X amount of time based on distance. Thus travel from Earth to Britannia could take ~600 years...though that supposition breaks down in the canon Ultimas as the Avatar tends to return to Earth between games (except between Ultimas VI and VIII where he remains offworld). Unless he used a silver or black moongate to return home, as both those gate types allow time travel. :confused:

We know that the Earth year 2669 occurred prior to Ultima VII as there is a Kilrathi fighter (Prince Thrakhath's ship) parked just outside Britain

* UO's version of the Shattering says that multiple alternate universes were spawned, one for each shard of the Gem. We can assume at least 27 shards of the Gem exist on Sosaria Prime, with each UO shard also containing 27...which would be recursive ad infinitum.

Instead of creating entire alternate universes for each shard, I like to go with simple duplication of the planet with each duplicate existing in the same physical place, but slightly out of phase with each other. Some temporal weirdness could be attributed to near singularity levels of frame dragging due to the mass of 27+ worlds in one 'small' spot. This doesn't take into accound that the entire planet was dimensionaly folded during the Shattring as well, breaking up its surface topography into the facets (aside from Ter Mur and Eodon, both of which exist on OTHER planets...) Increased mass should slow the passage of time though...so maybe its more of a gravitational lens around the planet...or better yet, a variably faceted prism...

Logic can only be applied so far when it comes to Ultima. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey magic!
 

nextwindow

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Souldn't all the ore we've mined all of these years make our shard/world a little lighter in weight, therefore our world spins faster?
 

Herman

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UNLEASHED
If Sosaria and Earth inhabit the same universe, how do they operate at different rates of time?
Time is not a constant in our universe far from it i would guess there is not a single planet or moon in our galaxy where time move at the same speed

The faster you move the slower time goes if you could travell at almost light speed time would be at pretty much stand still for you

The surface of the earth travell at about 400meters/second the planet earth travell at 30 lilometer/S around our sun our solarsystem spinning at 220 kilometer/S around the black hole at the center and our galaxy travell at over 1000 kilometer every second


Waiting for someone to post the univers song with monthy pyton :)
 

Dot_Warner

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Souldn't all the ore we've mined all of these years make our shard/world a little lighter in weight, therefore our world spins faster?
Uhm.. no.. The mass remains on the planet, it just gets redistributed slightly. The spin of a planetary body has way more to do with its core then its crust.

To "lighten" a planet, you'd literally have to remove mass from it. i.e. send it into space somehow.
 

Dot_Warner

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Time is not a constant in our universe far from it i would guess there is not a single planet or moon in our galaxy where time move at the same speed

The faster you move the slower time goes if you could travell at almost light speed time would be at pretty much stand still for you

The surface of the earth travell at about 400meters/second the planet earth travell at 30 lilometer/S around our sun our solarsystem spinning at 220 kilometer/S around the black hole at the center and our galaxy travell at over 1000 kilometer every second


Waiting for someone to post the univers song with monthy pyton :)
And every planet moves at a different speed around its parent star, with each star at varying speeds as well. Closer you are to the black hole, the "faster" you appear to move relative to those further out.

A temporal asynchronicity can be seen between clocks on Earth's surface and those in orbit.

This can get pretty geeky.
 
Last edited:

John Knighthawke

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Apologies for my answer being somewhat boring.

Our characters are as old or as young as the plot requires them to be, within a certain amount of reason and striving for a certain amount of consistency, internally and among the characters and reflecting the relationships between them.

-John's player
 

Silentfury

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
With your Math, 1 UO Year = 1 RL Month.
Open up the Scroll on the Paper Doll that list the Account Age and that's the age of your Oldest Toon.
 

Zeph Wightfyre

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Honestly, I just timelock my characters with some deft handwavium. UO barely adheres to its own lore at this point anyway.
 
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