What if Trammel was never created?

[MalagAste]

PK's like to kill all that move. If they do not loot, what is the problem then?

Before Trammel, it was different, the players could not choose a server with only consent PvP. You did know Siege was non consent PvP.

Now I do not know your name on Siege, but if I had seen you on my forest a few years ago, I would had killed you too, ressed you and chatted after. Sure I would had affed a little RP but noone force a PK to do that.

Maybe the PK just wanted to give you a welcome to Siege hugs and see if you could handle Siege or you would start to cry and trash talk him

Well I guess I'll never know because after they said sorry ..... which I didn't think was very heartfelt... they left. So no reason given as to the gank... just ran by and killed me... Friend gave me a rez not that I cared the PK wouldn't have had anything to take from me...

Just that you make it like Siege is wonderful and people stick about and talk and all this... but they didn't just killed me... then apologized more to the person I was with than to my ghost... and left. If that was a welcome to the neighborhood well... not sure it was all that welcoming... I didn't cry about didn't make a fuss and didn't care... also as I said didn't think it was deserving of a count either... not like I had any skill at the time. Was pretty much a newb... heck I didn't even have a pet with me.

Just you make like PK's want some good battle or something when you said it yourself they kill anything that moves... so no they aren't in it for the "thrill" of fighting an equal opponent... they just do it to kill people. They aren't saints.

Now if there was an actual reason for someone to go and kill Reds and such then probably more people would do it or try it. But sadly the way UO has become there is no benefit to killing a Red... he'll just get right back up and back at it in 2 seconds anyway... There is no point to being good or bad. The bounty system was cool and all but easily abused. Sadly most anything they try to put in that would reward anyone for killing anyone else would likely be exploited. Even if it was just a point system.... how many people do you know that exploit points by using 2 or 3 or more accounts to run VvV and get points? How many people did you know back in the day that would have a friend kill them so they could split the bounty reward money?

If they could make a reward system that was actually fun but not exploitable... then I think you would have more people interested. But anymore the game is about making a buck.... not about doing something "just for fun"... they want something out of it. And honestly you just don't get much out of PvP unless you are the winner. The vast majority have only known the other end of PvP .... the frustration... the sense of futility... the loss... Once some jerk tricks them into going to Fel and jumps them with their Gank Squad... many folk won't return to Fel ever again either. They won't give the experience a second chance.

My first experience in Fel was at an early EM style event where we went there to kill the now retconned "doppleganger" Mechanical Blackthron in the woods near Yew. Sure it was fun... I spent a lot of time rezzing people. Only died once but I couldn't get anywhere near Blackthorn since that area was swarming with Reds. The idea that everytime there was going to be something neat drop it was going to be in Fel where if you weren't in the local super fel Gank guild you weren't going to get anywhere near anything was rather disappointing...

At any rate if they made it more interesting to do Guild vs Guild things and such with warred alliances and guilds I think you would see more people PvPing. And you can do that anywhere. Something that was somehow easier to turn off when you needed to like during EM events and such or while you are out shopping or whatever and you didn't want to "fight" at that time... but you could turn on when you were ready again... like if you had to go to a "safe" place like a town and do something like talk to a guard captain to get out or if the guild leader could set a temporary truce or something to last say one day or something I think you might find more people interested.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Without Trammel I would never have played. I'm not into fighting other people, I simply don't enjoy it.
Having said that, as I gained in confidence and playing ability, I do venture into Fel, quite a lot, and I have tried pvp - unsuccessfully. If the two styles hadn't been available on the same shard I would never have tried the experience.
I have characters on Siege and have played them extensively, although they're not very active currently.

 

[Tanivar]

Hmm, what about Bo, Max Blackoak, Lyssa, Kheloth and alot more of our Siege PK's? Did you ever die to a PK on Siege?

Not since I moved here a couple years back, have come real close on a few occasions but gotten away every time. Had to rezz my packer if I had one but that's all I've ever lost to a pk.

I can do an exit stage left Snagglepuss would be proud of. *chuckles*

 

[FrejaSP]

Well I guess I'll never know because after they said sorry ..... which I didn't think was very heartfelt... they left. So no reason given as to the gank... just ran by and killed me... Friend gave me a rez not that I cared the PK wouldn't have had anything to take from me...

In this case, I guess your friend told them via ICQ or voice chat, that you was new and their friend. The reason to kill could be, PK's are like a cat, who like to play with the mouse. play with your feelings
PK's do not always kill for the loot, I had killed alot newbies, I never loot. Some react like you, feel it is unfair, others like the adrialin rush, when they see a red name and get attacked.

Just that you make it like Siege is wonderful and people stick about and talk and all this... but they didn't just killed me... then apologized more to the person I was with than to my ghost... and left. If that was a welcome to the neighborhood well... not sure it was all that welcoming... I didn't cry about didn't make a fuss and didn't care... also as I said didn't think it was deserving of a count either... not like I had any skill at the time. Was pretty much a newb... heck I didn't even have a pet with me.

As the PK did not loot, your only lose was a little time and maybe a little fame. A PK see a blue name, he do not open your paperdoll and check your suit and fame to see if you are new, if he did, you would had made it to town before he could attack you. He attack, see you die fast = you new. Then he may tell you to res or res you if he can and be sure you get your stuff back. I had many PK's call me, telling me they had a newbie for the guild NEW and them bring me the guy, they just killed. Many times, they took him to their place first and suited him up or gave him some start gold.

Just you make like PK's want some good battle or something when you said it yourself they kill anything that moves... so no they aren't in it for the "thrill" of fighting an equal opponent... they just do it to kill people. They aren't saints.

Because they kill anything that move, do not mean, they they do not enjoy a good battle too.

Now if there was an actual reason for someone to go and kill Reds and such then probably more people would do it or try it. But sadly the way UO has become there is no benefit to killing a Red... he'll just get right back up and back at it in 2 seconds anyway... There is no point to being good or bad. The bounty system was cool and all but easily abused. Sadly most anything they try to put in that would reward anyone for killing anyone else would likely be exploited. Even if it was just a point system.... how many people do you know that exploit points by using 2 or 3 or more accounts to run VvV and get points? How many people did you know back in the day that would have a friend kill them so they could split the bounty reward money?

Lets say, a PK kill a few members of a guild and loot them, then the guild will have a reason to go find the PK and loot him to punish him. On the other hand, if a RP PK kill some of their members and only loot their their shoes or their money or tell them they are not allowed to lumber in their forest and loot their logs, then the guild maybe still would try to find the PK but in this case, they are not really out to punishe him, but only give him a fight and mostly, they won't loot him.

My first experience in Fel was at an early EM style event where we went there to kill the now retconned "doppleganger" Mechanical Blackthron in the woods near Yew. Sure it was fun... I spent a lot of time rezzing people. Only died once but I couldn't get anywhere near Blackthorn since that area was swarming with Reds. The idea that everytime there was going to be something neat drop it was going to be in Fel where if you weren't in the local super fel Gank guild you weren't going to get anywhere near anything was rather disappointing...

As far I know, there is much more players in Trammel than reds in Fel. Why did the blue not band together and run this reds off?
I remember pre Trammel, if a red showed up in level 2 Covetous, and there was 10+ blue hunting harpies, they would run around like headless chickens and the PK could kill them one by one. If they had band together, they could had killed him.

At any rate if they made it more interesting to do Guild vs Guild things and such with warred alliances and guilds I think you would see more people PvPing.

The problem is, there would not be enough fights, it's great for players new to PvP but real PvP'ers do not want to fight the same enemy all the time and they like the trill of not knowing if they will get looted or not if they die.
With VvV, you choose your Allies but not your enemies and you have alot more enemies as all not in your alliance will be orange. Still some will be friendly enemies, you will fight without looting. Here guildtag mean alot.
There need to be different levels of PvP choices, some for the lesser PvP'ers and some for the more hardcore.
Same, some players want to be 100% safe, some want some risk, maybe in guild wars or go to Fel, when they are in the mood and some want the risk all the time.

 

[Deep Ellum Dan]

I agree with this because back in the day I feel that people were screaming for more land for housing but the Trammel rule set was also a bonus!

IMO in addition to insurance I also feel that the scripters/dupers and shard transfers ruined the economy.

While we're talking about PVP and Felucca I really wish they'd bring the bounty system back!

Ohh man! The bounty system was great... Why did they remove that? Chopping off heads was great...that is one thing I would love to see back and I think that would go great with payee hunts. A Bounty Hunter title like the Broker title for Minister of Trade missions.

 

[FrejaSP]

Chopping off heads was great

I always wanted to mount an evil/hated enemies head on a spear and place it at my door step or something.

 

[FrejaSP]

And honestly you just don't get much out of PvP unless you are the winner. The vast majority have only known the other end of PvP .... the frustration... the sense of futility... the loss

I do get fun and I get training, all can tell you I sucks and do die a lot, just look at my VvV status, I sure die more than I win.
If I did have fun, I would had taking the more safe way, a naked thief running sigels. I don't even have stealth on Freja


Now you may think I was running in crappy gear and just wanted the point. That won't give me any kill, as Siege players don't die that easy to an old lady like me. only 7 of the kills was mine alone.

Dark Star and Diablo had the honor of most of my deaths and a big part are from the Sundays events. Here GIL and other alliances made me take a dirt nap.

No matter what you say, I enjoyed the fights, and the ones who killed me, enjoyed to have someone to kill.

Now what did I lose? Maybe one suit, can't remember if I got all back and several Quiver of Infinity but believe I got them all back for some crafting help and resources so no big deal

Sadly most anything they try to put in that would reward anyone for killing anyone else would likely be exploited.

Why do we need the system to create rewards for us? My reward is the fun from interact with others. Sure this banners from VvV is great but that was not the reason I joined VvV and still are VvV

 

[Lord Frodo]

Or maybe it was that other MMO's started becoming available and many had comparable or better graphics & gameplay?

Clearly alot of people signed up when UO was Fel-only. It is only natural video game attrition that people move onto other games. I think blaming pre-Tram loss of subs on Fel-style of play is a giant DERP argument. What then is the explanation for large subscription drop post-Tram?

It was NOT because of other MMOs that the vast majority was jumping ship, it was all the **** people had to deal with and understand that when UO came out it was the only game in town.