A serious question about gold I would like answered.

[Kyronix]

Kyronix, after the gold conversion happens, how will we accomplish the following common transactions:

(1) A guildmate tells me that he is transferring some items to another shard in two days. I decide that I'd like to have him take 5 million gold to that shard for me in his transfer. Unfortunately, in planning for the transfer, we realize that we're not going to manage to meet up with our characters in-game before he wants to get the transfer done. Prior to the conversion, I would have just gone to his house on the shard where he was starting the transfer and locked down a container with 5 checks or dropped said container in the mailbox and then sent him a message via ICQ to tell him where to look for the checks to take. After the conversion happens, however, I won't be able to do that. My guildmate will be forced to delay his transfer or go without my gold if we are unsuccessful at arranging for an in-game character-to-character transfer.

(2) A guildmate asks me to purchase something for him on Atlantic because he doesn't have enough gold there to buy the item. He will be transferring some items to Atlantic in a couple of days and will send over some gold to repay me. I agree to purchase the item for him. A couple of days transpire and he makes the transfer. Prior to the conversion, he would have just come over to my house on Atlantic and locked the checks down and I would have been repaid. After the conversion, however, we will have to arrange to make an in-game character-to-character transfer, which may be difficult to pull off if our times to play don't coincide. Meanwhile, when I do play on Atlantic, my gold supply has been dinged plus I may be really starting to wonder if my guildmate is purposely being evasive about meeting up with me to make the repayment!

I can already see that both of these situations, which I believe are VERY COMMON these days, will have a very negative effect on people's attitude towards playing UO. There are still quite a few of us who don't have shard shields to do our own transfers and are not overjoyed at the idea of paying for transfer tokens for ourselves just to transfer over a few gold checks. Much as I really don't care for the idea because of its broader implications for moving huge amounts of gold, I think we are going to need to have the ability to transfer gold to other characters "in absentia" via some currently non-existent system.

The feature is still in active development, when all the details are finalized we'll have more information. Thank you for bringing up these questions so we can be sure to address everyone's concerns.

 

[Lord Nabin]

My humble request would be for "Comma's"

200000000 is a lot harder to read then

200,000,000

Makes life so much easier.

*Taps pipe and settles back to his fire deep in thought*

 

[Lorddog]

can I transfer gold from UO to SWTOR ???


WHY NOT

 

[Capt. Lucky]

This is the perfect excuse for a working global mail system that can send items/gold

Wrap a simple friends system into it, and UO will have all the modern conveniences that every other MMO started with

This could be tied through the housing server, since it has to watch all the shards anyway.

If I could "mail" items/gold to another server you've completely eliminated why I would need to use transfer tokens. I think the transfer token business is probably the best thing UO has going at the Origin store. So while I would love it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Uriah Heep]

I'm still in shock that they brought out the shard shields!

 

[Lythos-]

The inability to make secure high value trades is a problem for the economy, which is something brought up often as a major problem. Right now, a lot of gold sits around uncirculated and unspent simply because storing and transferring it between players is not an easy process.

For example, let's say someone ends up selling a rare for a 400 million gold. As it stands there is no easy way to transfer that much gold between the buyer and seller, and other items with inherent value equal to that of the sale price are used in place of checks. By making this process easy and secure we get more money cycling into the hands of people who will spend it instead of hoard it.

This sounds good in theory BUT...

Circulating gold in game does nothing but swap hands. What are players supposed to spend the gold on?

-Runics? They make suits that last forever.
-Imbuing items? They still last for years.
-Tokens? Xfers were the breadwinners and those were cut in half with shard shields.
-NPCs? They sell nothing worth buying anymore.

This is going to be a never ending circle of adding more OP items in game to try to keep up with the gold flow. IMO the only way is to introduce a massive sink of some sort.

What about the looting of gold? If you're thinking about all loot gold going straight to the bank you'll have a whole new breed of afk farmers that won't even need a script.

 

[THP]

some like some dislike....alas its happening...the sooner the better...get used to the idea...

 

[MalagAste]

This sounds good in theory BUT...

Circulating gold in game does nothing but swap hands. What are players supposed to spend the gold on?

-Runics? They make suits that last forever.
-Imbuing items? They still last for years.
-Tokens? Xfers were the breadwinners and those were cut in half with shard shields.
-NPCs? They sell nothing worth buying anymore.

This is going to be a never ending circle of adding more OP items in game to try to keep up with the gold flow. IMO the only way is to introduce a massive sink of some sort.

What about the looting of gold? If you're thinking about all loot gold going straight to the bank you'll have a whole new breed of afk farmers that won't even need a script.

If you have a problem getting rid of gold I can tell you where to put all that extra gold you can't store... Go to GL's my house in Luna is the second one from the left on the North Side wall... The Britannian Consulate... I have 2 mailboxes there one on the front steps one on the second floor outside my office. You can drop them in there if you like. If you don't like Luna your free to drop them on the Yew Town Stone since I'm the Governor there.. I'm sure I can find some use for your unwanted Gold... Also you can stuff my mailbox at the Yew-wood forest theatre.... located just 6 O'Clock pretty much in that big clearing south East of Yew Gate. Feel free....

I've never had a problem spending gold.... Never had enough... don't usually have more than a few million... I'm sure if you wanted you could spread some wealth about.

 

[Dot_Warner]

If I could "mail" items/gold to another server you've completely eliminated why I would need to use transfer tokens. I think the transfer token business is probably the best thing UO has going at the Origin store. So while I would love it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

So the mailed items are limited in number/frequency over a given period of time, say 5-10 single-item inter-shard parcel deliveries per calendar month, per account. Unlimited intra-shard deliveries.

This way it doesn't limit what you can send within your own shard, and won't really eat into transfer token sales too much.

They could even go one step further and tie it to house ownership. You have to own a house on the shard from which the delivery originates, further "protecting" token sales.

 

[TandaBSK]

I agree with Lord Nabin, any where we have gold figures currency punctuation would be grand!!! Comma's would make life so much easier!
I also think there can be many new ways created to spend gold that would provide increased community, service and goods. But that's another issue.
I think it's amazing the numbers of ways I've read that we as players have found to save, spend, transfer, decorate with etc., the gold in game.
Still sometimes I travel vendors and look at stuff, go to auctions, and it seems all we do is shuffle stuff around, buy it here cheap, sell it here a little less cheaply
it just rolls around and around. Thank goodness some people are hoarders and museum keepers. hehe
Thanks again Kyronix !

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

I was reading this discussion, and thought the answer is right in front our collective noses. Okay everyone all together BREATHE....good, very good. Okay , can't have everyone simultaneously having heart failure at the site of my name. The answers are yes, yes, yes and yes. Yes, I'm still around . Yes, our accounts are still open and active. Yes, I'm still in college. Yes, I'm keeping up my GPA ..last semester's grade were MacroEcon. = A, Financial Accting (aka Accting I)= B, General Physical Science= C. Yeah, yeah I know a "C" but I can't be good at everything, and General Physical science has never been a strength of mine. Okay on to addressing the issue at hand, how to handle the movement of gold. The answer is a banking system much like the checking account you keep your real money. Its all comes down to numbers . Okay you would need an account number...That could been the identifying number you see beside your char's name in general chat. After 6 months of observation, the number does not change unless you delete the char or do a name change. Okay each shard could be assigned an identifying number. Okay suppose Moe wants to give his buddies Larry and Curly 10 million gold (5 million for each). Moe would access his gold account he would send gold from acct 375241 to accts 457890 and 691113. Okay now the "system" understand this as debit acct 457890 5 million , debit acct 691113 5 million and credit acct 375241 10 million. Okay for the record debits raise the balance of an account and a credit lowers the balance. (think credit like a bill owed/paid). This could be built and implemented simply enough. see we move gold from A to B without actually having to move physical gold! Its like when you pay a bill online ,you pay the bill, money is moved from your bank to say DirecTV, but no physical monies actual move...its credits and debits on paper. I hope I explain that clearly enough if I didn't, tell me (nicely please) and I'll try to make it simpler.

 

[Uriah Heep]

*faints*

 

[Captn Norrington]

*faints*

*Attempts to revive*

 

[TandaBSK]

You have your debits and credits backward, debit is left column in a ledger, credit is right column in a ledger. when you credit an account you increase the balance, when you debit and account you decrease it's balance. The system might work provided you don't screw up your data entry an transpose a number.

 

[Herman]

You have your debits and credits backward, debit is left column in a ledger, credit is right column in a ledger. when you credit an account you increase the balance, when you debit and account you decrease it's balance. The system might work provided you don't screw up your data entry an transpose a number.

Is there a right and wrong way ?

If there both is a credit and debit for every transaction then it is just from what point of view you look at it from last time this was discussed here on startics i think someone said that what we in daily talk mean by debits and credits is from the bank point of view

Or the other way around LOL

 

[Aurelius]

Just as a safeguard if gold becomes a virtual number, could there be something added in the trade window - if the person selling types in a price, the gold offered by the buyer must match that number, or the trade doesn't happen? Would avoid any tricks with 'oh, I missed out a 0' in such transactions, since we are doing this in large part for the multi-million gold transactions where a zero might be easily overlooked...

 

[Merus]

You have your debits and credits backward, debit is left column in a ledger, credit is right column in a ledger. when you credit an account you increase the balance, when you debit and account you decrease it's balance. The system might work provided you don't screw up your data entry an transpose a number.

Technically cash is an asset and carries a debit balance on the balance sheet. Debits increase assets and credits decrease assets. The original poster had the transaction correct.

 

[Uriah Heep]

*sighs*

Checks were simpler, but debit/credit whatever, I'm out of the convo, they gonna do what they want anyway. And I will live with it, just like most the other changes that dont make sense...

 

[The Zog historian]

Technically cash is an asset and carries a debit balance on the balance sheet. Debits increase assets and credits decrease assets. The original poster had the transaction correct.

No, she did not, not per the phrasing she used, and she's been corrected before. If an account increases by X, then it has been credited X. Any "debit" is to the account that transferred the cash to the receiver.

Okay suppose Moe wants to give his buddies Larry and Curly 10 million gold (5 million for each). Moe would access his gold account he would send gold from acct 375241 to accts 457890 and 691113. Okay now the "system" understand this as debit acct 457890 5 million , debit acct 691113 5 million and credit acct 375241 10 million. Okay for the record debits raise the balance of an account and a credit lowers the balance. (think credit like a bill owed/paid)..

To send X from 375241 to 457890, then 375214 would be the one debited, and 457890 would be the one credited. There is no argument about these plain accounting terms. She and you are simply incorrect.

Think about it this way: would you rather your bank credit your account $1 million, or debit your account $1 million?

 

[The Zog historian]

Is there a right and wrong way ?

If there both is a credit and debit for every transaction then it is just from what point of view you look at it from last time this was discussed here on startics i think someone said that what we in daily talk mean by debits and credits is from the bank point of view

Or the other way around LOL

In these simple scenarios of transferring money, there's a simple, completely objective point of view. Debit an account by X, and credit the same amount of money to a different account. The meaning should be obvious to anyone who's had a financial account.

 

[Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS]

Physical gold to transfer should dissapear, more like a credit card, all the coin collected from mobs gets added to the total coin in bank and you transfer from a deposit. If you want to move money shard to shard, a Check with a expire date is created for like 48hrs and then dissapears

 

[Merus]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debits_and_credits

 

[Herman]

In these simple scenarios of transferring money, there's a simple, completely objective point of view. Debit an account by X, and credit the same amount of money to a different account. The meaning should be obvious to anyone who's had a financial account.

The bank always show it from theire point of view when they notify you about changes in you acc

 

[The Zog historian]

The bank always show it from theire point of view when they notify you about changes in you acc

The bank would still have an absolute point of view. Even if it involves the bank's own funds, it debits its own account when transferring money out, and credits a customer's account that is receiving.

 

[Herman]

The bank would still have an absolute point of view. Even if it involves the bank's own funds, it debits its own account when transferring money out, and credits a customer's account that is receiving.

When they notify a customer that they credits theire acc it is because the banks own funds goes - they always show it from theire perspective that is the way i understand it


But in daily talk you are 100% correct

 

[Merus]

When they notify a customer that they credits theire acc it is because the banks own funds goes - they always show it from theire perspective that is the way i understand it


But in daily talk you are 100% correct

You are correct, the bank calls it a credit when they increase you account because to them the balance in your account is not an asset... It is a liability. If you look at the banks balance sheet the actual cash that the bank has will be listed as a debit balance.... just like every other business that uses generally accepted accounting.

 

[The Zog historian]

When they notify a customer that they credits theire acc it is because the banks own funds goes - they always show it from theire perspective that is the way i understand it


But in daily talk you are 100% correct

There's no "daily talk" about it. You're referring to how a bank computes its net assets. We're talking about the simple act of transferring money.

Even from the bank's perspective, it will debit its own account to credit the same money to a customer's account.

 

[Herman]

There's no "daily talk" about it. You're referring to how a bank computes its net assets. We're talking about the simple act of transferring money.

Even from the bank's perspective, it will debit its own account to credit the same money to a customer's account.

NO i do not

I could be wrong like i said it is just the way i understand it but most of all i do not care

 

[The Zog historian]

You are correct, the bank calls it a credit when they increase you account because to them the balance in your account is not an asset... It is a liability. If you look at the banks balance sheet the actual cash that the bank has will be listed as a debit balance.... just like every other business that uses generally accepted accounting.

It is a liability to the bank, but you're talking about debit as a noun, not a verb. This is not the scenario we're talking about. Read what was posted again, which I quoted.

To transfer from account 1 to account 2, the funds are debited from account 1, then credited to account 2.

 

[The Zog historian]

NO i do not

I could be wrong like i said it is just the way i understand it but most of all i do not care

You may "not care," but if the game is to have a major change in financial transactions, then everyone needs to be accurate in the terminology. Do you not think the Dev team would want to know precisely what different words mean? Or would they "not care" when someone wants to buy an item for 200 million, and instead gets the item plus 200 million from the seller?

 

[Merus]

It is a liability to the bank, but you're talking about debit as a noun, not a verb. This is not the scenario we're talking about. Read what was posted again, which I quoted.

To transfer from account 1 to account 2, the funds are debited from account 1, then credited to account 2.

Actually I am using an accounting term, which when describing the change to an account balance is a verb.

You are using a non-accounting use of the word. Both are accurate.

 

[Smoot]

Do you not think the Dev team would want to know precisely what different words mean?

have you seen Mesanna's spelling and use of language? no. i dont think she cares.

In all seriousness, im sure they will have their own system and not operate UO with RL terms so none of this is probably relevant.

 

[Kojak]

I think we should just give all our checks to the gold fairy in our banks

*the gold fairy accepts your credit/debit/whatever - hehe*

 

[The Zog historian]

Actually I am using an accounting term, which when describing the change to an account balance is a verb.

You are using a non-accounting use of the word. Both are accurate.

Actually, my usage is very much based in "accounting." Are you really going to argue that if $1000 is subtracted from an account, that it was "credited" to the account? You might as well argue the sun rises in the west.

Notwithstanding your attempt to backtrack, your softening "We're both right," and your poor attempt at generalization to make your claim seem correct, you're still incorrect to defend what Jirel posted. Did you even read what she posted? She had it completely backward.

 

[The Zog historian]

have you seen Mesanna's spelling and use of language? no. i dont think she cares.

In all seriousness, im sure they will have their own system and not operate UO with RL terms so none of this is probably relevant.

Don't get me started on certain errors she's made about [edit: the] game. But if we're going to have a thread offering suggestions and talking about scenarios, wouldn't it be nice if we're all on the same page and use terms correctly? It hinders any usefulness for someone to, say, describe torque as pounds per foot and then say, "But you know what I mean."

 

[TandaBSK]

'"deb·it
ˈdebit
noun
noun: debit; plural noun: debits

1. 1.
   an entry recording an amount owed, listed on the left-hand side or column of an account.
   • a payment made or owed.

verb
verb: debit; 3rd person present: debits; past tense: debited; past participle: debited; gerund or present participle: debiting

1. 1.
   (of a bank or other financial organization) remove (an amount of money) from a customer's account, typically as payment for services or goods.
   "$10,000 was debited from their account"'

I had not intended to cause an argument. Merely wanted to point out that HOW money is moved or the coding or what have you is done matters. Since we have proved here, we can't all agree on terminology. There are other issues like transposition, security of account numbers, the need to remember perhaps yet another PIN to use money in a game?? It gave me a laugh to see even accounting terms can spark a debate.

 

[The Zog historian]

Because if someone's going to use such terms, we all need to be on the same page, and do you not think it's a good thing to correct people's misinformation?

Let's take this claim: "When you credit Cash, you subtract from it. Likewise, when you debit Cash, you add to it." This is simply wrong, being the reverse of truth. To credit anything to account A does not subtract from that same account, but rather subtracts from a separate account that held the asset, in order to transfer the asset to account A. When debiting something from an account, it does not add to the same account. It is taking from that account to give to a separate account.

 

[old gypsy]

*sigh*

I will always prefer the shiny stuff that glints and glimmers and makes nice metallic clinking sounds when it hits the table after sliding through my fingers. My second favorite is the pretty check that reminds me of what those coins sound like.

 

[icm420]

most unpopular idea yet.. delete all the damn gold and start over again.

 

[Victim of Siege]

*sigh*

I will always prefer the shiny stuff that glints and glimmers and makes nice metallic clinking sounds when it hits the table after sliding through my fingers. My second favorite is the pretty check that reminds me of what those coins sound like.

I prefer mine still have the blood of the former owner on it . . .

 

[old gypsy]

I prefer mine still have the blood of the former owner on it . . .

Okay.....