Project Gorgon PVP

[happytr33z]

Hey there, this is part question/part suggestion concerning plans for PvP in the game.

I was just reading about Project Gorgon a bit and while reading one of the designer's blogs, I noticed that he mentioned PvP will be a very small part of the game and will most likely be restricted to certain zones. While I understand that you shouldn't make PvP a forced thing for the whole game, I was wondering if there are any plans to appease those of us who like REAL, open-world PvP?

By real PvP, I mean PvP that occurs not because you go to the zone that says you have to, or because the other player's race is on the "enemy team", and not because you entered some instanced off PvP battleground, but PvP that occurs because of natural player conflict, because they are taking the mob you have been waiting for, have been rude to you in chat, or just for the heck of it.

While I do think battlegrounds, and instanced off or "controlled" PvP can be fun sometimes, and has its benefits, it doesn't hold a candle to the thrill of open world PvP. Not only does open world pvp create a way for the players to punish other players for being out of line (that ninja looter taking all the good drops in a dungeon or that jerk spamming up the chat with garbage might think twice if they can get whacked as a consequence for their behavior!) but it also adds a whole new layer of social interaction. Some of my favorite times in MMORPGs have been trying to escape a pack of pk'ers with my party, or defending someone getting picked on by a tougher player. Those moments were memorable and exciting, and are all but lost in today's MMORPG scene in the name of convenience.

As I said before though, I do understand it wouldn't be wise to force it upon all players as some people just don't want to deal with it, and I completely support that. All I am asking is for something for those of us who enjoy having the extra challenge of fighting an enemy as intelligent as you, and having the thrill of being in an environment where you can be attacked at any moment like no NPC can give you.


Below are a few ideas I thought up :

#1 Permanent PVP flag : This could work very similar to how the "Tome of Discord" worked in EverQuest, basically when you start the game (or perhaps could make it attainable thru a quest? that would be neat) you are given an item that you can give to a certain NPC in the game to make you vulnerable to PvP attack permanently. ( or perhaps you could make a quest to get you unflagged as well)

#2 Separate PvP server : Plain and simple, just a Project Gorgon server with the pvp switched on, no special content made just for PvP, period. I'm pretty sure if the game is run on several servers this will eventually be an idea you guys have anyway, but since you may end up going with just one giant server for the game maybe you could make one special for us PvP guys? Maybe put up a poll to gauge interest to make sure it's profitable and what not.

#3 Guild Wars : Another idea would be to just make it to where guilds could flag open pvp between themselves thru a Guild War.


Thanks for reading, and if you've worked on the game, thank you for the hard work, the game is truly looking amazing and I have extremely high hopes for it.

 

[Cramit]

I like your idea and I agree that we need a good PVP system but I have some concerns:

1.) This is a good idea, although I think we would need a way to turn it off. To allow folks to turn a flag on and off would be great and allow folks to fight right in the main zones of the game, however I think you would need a player that turned the flag on too turn it off as some may do it by accident, especially if it is at first log on of character, A LA EQ. Although if the flag is controlled by a quest, I feel it would be too annoying of a system to flag on/off quickly, making PVP pretty much a hardcore option like the hardcore death penalty, which in turn may make it rarely used except for a few people.

2.) I could see this being a very easy solution however this then splits the community and personally I would prefer to see players all on the same servers no matter what their play style is. I know in EQ, they did this and while it did work, you typically had a much smaller PVP community and that server was typically dead.

3.) This is always a great idea, however then your basically restricting PVP to a guild only activity. I think anyone, whether in a guild or not should be able to do PVP if they so choose, when they choose. However, having a way for guilds to be able to "declare war on each other" and fight it out between the two without anyone jumping in is a great feature as well.

You bring some great ideas and as you look through the forums I am sure you will see that this question has been brought up a couple times. It maybe worthwhile to create a poll in the discussion hall and mention it over the weekend in-game for folks to check out the forums and vote on what they would like too see. Mainly because from what I have read from Eric, he is kinda waiting to see if PVP becomes a big option the community wants, as of right now it does seem to be only a couple of us and that doesn't constitute him and the other devs putting in a ton of time on the system.

My opinion on the whole matter basically breaks down to this. I would prefer to see the DAoC style of pvp. Make a zone or two with different structures to capture. Then allow guilds to capture them and fight over them in that zone. The zone would be completely open PVP at all times. Have mobs and maybe a dungeon or 2 there as well, so there are reasons to go in there other than just PVP.

At this point, I think the question becomes, how do you make the risk vs reward system for that zone or 2 good enough to make it fun for PVP lovers as well as the casual PVP player who just wants to jump in at their leisure? I was thinking it could be tied to the structures or possibly just different drops rates of materials from mobs in the zone and any accompanying dungeons in the zone. For instance below I gave some examples of possible structures:

Structures:
Farm
Mill
Mine
Castle
Fort

Maybe the castle and forts don't really offer any extra resources or easily attained resources but do offer merchants/crafting locations to be able to make things and sell. Probably also add some form of siege weapons into the crafting system and give the merchants specific things for those. Then you could allow the other structures extra resources or space to attain things, like the farm you can plant a couple fields and/or get increased amount of items from things you plant there. Maybe the mine and mill would have a lot of spawns of different wood and ore around them so if your hanging there, you can forage more items.

I think a system like this would fit this game well. You could make PVP revolve around making things from crafting a little bit quicker as well as a place where guilds and players can fight each other with a system that feels like it is affecting the world. The one trick is to make it so that the PVE players don't feel required to go into the PVP area to progress and sometimes with increased resource gain in PVP areas, they feel that way.

I think this is something we really need to get the community to vote on to see where everyone lies on it. As well as based off of some of the other posts, I think that is what Eric is waiting for or at least isn't making it a priority till he sees the community asking for it. In the end, this is the style system I would love too see, but everyone has their own thoughts.

 

[Auriel]

Right now PvP is very much in the air and very much open to discussion. Originally we weren't going to have PvP at all, but the devs listened to the players and made a few things available. We have one arena now that is accessible from Kur. The other thing we have been playing around with is PvP potions, both temporary and permanent. Using the potions allow the player to remain flagged for PvP to anyone else who is also flagged. You can PvP open world with no danger to anyone else. The only difference for them is that Serbule town tends to turn into a ffa graveyard.

Additionally I have a monster I can spawn that can be flagged red or blue that will make a game wide announcement when it is killed. I would really like to figure out a fun way to make use of those.

A big issue with PvP right now is skill balance. Some skills are more OP than others, which is going to be in the works for some time. This game is still in the Alpha stages, after all. But if you can relax and have fun with it, testing it out helps.

Right now I only know of a small handful of people who are perm PvP, but I would like to see that become more of a common thing where situations would come up randomly were PvP would be a viable option.

LOVE the idea of siege games!

 

[Cramit]

Thanks for the info Auriel. It's great to have one of you let us know exactly what is set up in game as of right now. I agree that skill balance is a big issue specifically for PVP and while we are still in alpha stages, it will still be something worked on.

However I do think it can be overcome with good tactics, so even if skill balance is an issue, since that will be worked on throughout the life of the game, as more things are added/removed, I think if we as a community can figure out a system that works for us as players and you guys as devs, then that's half the battle. Not to mention PVP is usually a good way of seeing what skills are OP and need to be retuned.

We do have a discussion @ http://stratics.com/community/threads/is-there-any-pvp-ingame-now.321957/

We're kinda figuring out the styles of PVP and hoping to create a poll some time today and ask here on the forums as well as while in-game for folks to take a look at it and weigh in, so we can see what the community thinks. Any participation on your side from you or anyone of the devs would be greatly appreciated.

 

[happytr33z]

I like your idea and I agree that we need a good PVP system but I have some concerns:

1.) This is a good idea, although I think we would need a way to turn it off. To allow folks to turn a flag on and off would be great and allow folks to fight right in the main zones of the game, however I think you would need a player that turned the flag on too turn it off as some may do it by accident, especially if it is at first log on of character, A LA EQ. Although if the flag is controlled by a quest, I feel it would be too annoying of a system to flag on/off quickly, making PVP pretty much a hardcore option like the hardcore death penalty, which in turn may make it rarely used except for a few people.

The main point of the quest to flag on or off is to make flagging more of a long term decision, so that you aren't able to flag pvp to gank someone then just unflag a few minutes later making the player you attacked unable to have a shot at getting you back. That just sounds like a lazy system that rewards people who play like cowards, and promotes a very negative form of PvP that is basically just griefing.

Making players have to put time and effort into getting themselves flagged and unflagged through a quest means if they are flagged and kill someone, it's pretty much certain that the player they killed will get a chance to retaliate before the initial attacking player has a chance to get his flag off.

Also if you did it thru a quest that makes "accidentally flagging" pretty much impossible, you know?

TL;DR flagging PvP shouldn't be a "quick" thing, it promotes griefing and a toxic pvp scene. It should be something you commit your character to for a long time, or permanently.

 

[happytr33z]

The only idea I am really opposed to would have to be the open PvP zones idea, while I understand some people like it for the convenience of being able to just pop in and out, I feel that it completely takes the spirit out of PvP.

PvP shouldn't be a separate part of the game, instanced off or isolated from the outside world in some other form. It should be intertwined with PvE in almost every aspect. The best PvP comes from competing for raid mobs, or competing for the "hot spot" farming areas. That PvP matters, and gives you a REASON to fight. Special content created just for PvP has always felt monotonous and just plain forced. I want to decide when I want to fight, where I want to fight, who I want to fight, and why. That is what real, world PvP is, and that is what I was talking about in the OP. Cause tbh if I wanted to fight in abunch of lame battlegrounds or the PvP playpens that are PvP zones to collect my little tokens and go get gimmicky prizes, I would just go play some WoW.

PvP gear/zones/abilities are completely unnecessary, all the content in the game needs to be created with nothing but PvE and the best roleplaying experience in mind, and just make PvP a possibility for those of us who want it. That is really all there needs to be, let the players create the conflicts.

 

[Cramit]

The main point of the quest to flag on or off is to make flagging more of a long term decision, so that you aren't able to flag pvp to gank someone then just unflag a few minutes later making the player you attacked unable to have a shot at getting you back. That just sounds like a lazy system that rewards people who play like cowards, and promotes a very negative form of PvP that is basically just griefing.

Making players have to put time and effort into getting themselves flagged and unflagged through a quest means if they are flagged and kill someone, it's pretty much certain that the player they killed will get a chance to retaliate before the initial attacking player has a chance to get his flag off.

Also if you did it thru a quest that makes "accidentally flagging" pretty much impossible, you know?

TL;DR flagging PvP shouldn't be a "quick" thing, it promotes griefing and a toxic pvp scene. It should be something you commit your character to for a long time, or permanently.

That's a very good point, I didn't think of it in those terms. However I did assume there would be some what of a cooldown. For instance something like once switching either way would have to wait 1 hour or something like that till you could switch back but even then, that could make griefing very easy. However you could make it based off of when you actually attack someone, but you could still grief folks that way.

Keep a look out for a poll that some of us in the other thread are discussing and will be posting to hopefully get a consensus from the rest of the community as to what other folks would like to see.

 

[happytr33z]

That's a very good point, I didn't think of it in those terms. However I did assume there would be some what of a cooldown. For instance something like once switching either way would have to wait 1 hour or something like that till you could switch back but even then, that could make griefing very easy. However you could make it based off of when you actually attack someone, but you could still grief folks that way.

Keep a look out for a poll that some of us in the other thread are discussing and will be posting to hopefully get a consensus from the rest of the community as to what other folks would like to see.

A cooldown would actually be a very good fix, I was just thinking the quest line could be pretty neat from a roleplaying perspective maybe you could have to do a quest once that unlocks it and from there on you can just toggle it and have the cooldown of an hour or so.

 

[Cramit]

A cooldown would actually be a very good fix, I was just thinking the quest line could be pretty neat from a roleplaying perspective maybe you could have to do a quest once that unlocks it and from there on you can just toggle it and have the cooldown of an hour or so.

Yea absolutely and with the depth this game already has and it's immersion factor, being able to roleplay it is a HUGE plus for that type of a system. I think everyone agrees that no matter what PVP system the community feels is appropriate, we need to find one that fits this game well and roleplaying ABSOLUTELY fits this game perfectly!

 

[Shoeshine]

The only idea I am really opposed to would have to be the open PvP zones idea, while I understand some people like it for the convenience of being able to just pop in and out, I feel that it completely takes the spirit out of PvP.

PvP shouldn't be a separate part of the game, instanced off or isolated from the outside world in some other form. It should be intertwined with PvE in almost every aspect. The best PvP comes from competing for raid mobs, or competing for the "hot spot" farming areas. That PvP matters, and gives you a REASON to fight. Special content created just for PvP has always felt monotonous and just plain forced. I want to decide when I want to fight, where I want to fight, who I want to fight, and why. That is what real, world PvP is, and that is what I was talking about in the OP. Cause tbh if I wanted to fight in abunch of lame battlegrounds or the PvP playpens that are PvP zones to collect my little tokens and go get gimmicky prizes, I would just go play some WoW.

PvP gear/zones/abilities are completely unnecessary, all the content in the game needs to be created with nothing but PvE and the best roleplaying experience in mind, and just make PvP a possibility for those of us who want it. That is really all there needs to be, let the players create the conflicts.

Hmm, I don't get it. Or I might misinterpret what you wrote. Do you mean that you want PVP only to be turned on through some system, and then only fight others that have done the same, in PVE zones with other PVE-players there to, fighting the same mob for instance. Why would any1 turn on PVP in a PVE zone to fight for mobs, when you can just stay unflagged, and do it in peace? You wont compete for hot spots, if you can stay unflagged and get those hot spots. The PVP would be pointless in those areas. You gain nothing from it, except maybe the satisfaction of killing some other guy, that was flagged for PVP as well. Am I missing something here, or is that how you want it? If so, then I'm not in favor of that kind of PVP.

 

[happytr33z]

Hmm, I don't get it. Or I might misinterpret what you wrote. Do you mean that you want PVP only to be turned on through some system, and then only fight others that have done the same, in PVE zones with other PVE-players there to, fighting the same mob for instance. Why would any1 turn on PVP in a PVE zone to fight for mobs, when you can just stay unflagged, and do it in peace? You wont compete for hot spots, if you can stay unflagged and get those hot spots. The PVP would be pointless in those areas. You gain nothing from it, except maybe the satisfaction of killing some other guy, that was flagged for PVP as well. Am I missing something here, or is that how you want it? If so, then I'm not in favor of that kind of PVP.

Well for that example I was assuming there would be a separate, all PvP server.

Though those examples weren't the main point, the main point was that PvP shouldn't be instanced off or separated from the main game no matter which way they plan to implement it (if they even do implement it)

 

[Shoeshine]

Well for that example I was assuming there would be a separate, all PvP server.

Though those examples weren't the main point, the main point was that PvP shouldn't be instanced off or separated from the main game no matter which way they plan to implement it (if they even do implement it)

I only want PVP to have some meaning, doesn't matter if it's on a PVP-server or a PVE-server, and for it to have some meaning on a server with PVE-players the best route would be to have a part of the map that has open world PVP, and where you, could get the same warning message as you get in some dungeons when you get close to a boss all over the screen, so peeps know what they are walking into. And in that PVP-area there need to be incentives to enter it. Like higher yeild of crafting mats from nodes, or more mats from mobs, higher chance for better loot etc. Things that you also CAN get if you choose to only go PVE, but where it will take alittle longer time. So a risk/time vs reward system. I think that is the best way to go. And if there were to be a full on PVP server, there need to be more incentives there than being able to bash some1s head in. Cause that gets dull pretty damn fast, at least if your older then 13.

 

[happytr33z]

I only want PVP to have some meaning, doesn't matter if it's on a PVP-server or a PVE-server, and for it to have some meaning on a server with PVE-players the best route would be to have a part of the map that has open world PVP, and where you, could get the same warning message as you get in some dungeons when you get close to a boss all over the screen, so peeps know what they are walking into. And in that PVP-area there need to be incentives to enter it. Like higher yeild of crafting mats from nodes, or more mats from mobs, higher chance for better loot etc. Things that you also CAN get if you choose to only go PVE, but where it will take alittle longer time. So a risk/time vs reward system. I think that is the best way to go. And if there were to be a full on PVP server, there need to be more incentives there than being able to bash some1s head in. Cause that gets dull pretty damn fast, at least if your older then 13.

I guess from an outsider looking in perspective it could seem like it's just random bashing peoples heads in, and with some players that is really all they do, but to say that is all open world PvP is about is just wrong.

If they did take the pvp zone route, I would really hope they would run a separate PvP server. imo pvp zones are just a bad idea, and aren't fun for either PvE players or PvP players. It seems like a perfect in the middle fix on paper, but in practice it just sucks. Ofcourse that is just my opinion, I'm sure there's a group of people who enjoy sitting in the same area ganking people over and over, because that is what PvP zones end up being in my experience.

 

[awollsd]

didn't read all the new replies I'm not on here long but I played a game before that did pvp really well....

Basicaly it was open world pvp. every zone. (but there could be safe area's)
if you killed a player you could get 1 of their items. (in that game you would get to choose 1 of 3 random items they had but it could be different)
then if you killed a player it announced it in world chat that you are now tagged as a PK'er and the zone you are in.
If a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would drop all items they had in their invatory (again could be adjusted)
IF a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would not be tagged as a PK'er.
IF the PK'er could keep from being killed for X time the PK'er tag would be removed.

with this system you have rewards for pvp/killing a player. but you also have a huge risk so players have to decided if the reward/fun was really worth the risk. also with this system players are able to police the PK'ers and make sure they didn't farm lowbies and ruin the game for others.

This system is also rather easy to implement. as just have to enable pvp everywhere (or in what ever zones you want) AND create Player Killer tag. and a code to not give the tag if the person killed had the tag. and a game announcement on player vrs player death.

Now after this was done there could also become tiered ladder system tournement's/arena's and maybe guild wars later to come. but the above is a GREAT start.

 

[Rickie Nixon]

So long as I don't need to PVP then I don't really mind what the system is. This tends to be one of the areas the vocal minority drown out the silent majority with the effect that people drift away from the game.

Personally I don't class PVP as a major part of the game and more an irritation than fun.

 

[xpiher]

By not having any focus on PvP at all you greatly limit the sandbox potential of the game. Everything in the game sounds good but at the end of the day if its just PvE then there its just fighting mobs for loot and experience. There should be some sort of PvP system in place, whether optional or not, in order to fully flesh out the sandbox experience. I think an Island with special resources that people can contend over would fit well with the rest of the game. These special resources could be used in the creation of JUST PvP armor so the PvErs can't be upset that they don't "get access to it." And you shouldn't worry about balance too much in an open skill open world game. Fights aren't ever going to be fair if you can zerg people down, and for a sandbox game that should be possible.

 

[happytr33z]

didn't read all the new replies I'm not on here long but I played a game before that did pvp really well....

Basicaly it was open world pvp. every zone. (but there could be safe area's)
if you killed a player you could get 1 of their items. (in that game you would get to choose 1 of 3 random items they had but it could be different)
then if you killed a player it announced it in world chat that you are now tagged as a PK'er and the zone you are in.
If a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would drop all items they had in their invatory (again could be adjusted)
IF a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would not be tagged as a PK'er.
IF the PK'er could keep from being killed for X time the PK'er tag would be removed.

with this system you have rewards for pvp/killing a player. but you also have a huge risk so players have to decided if the reward/fun was really worth the risk. also with this system players are able to police the PK'ers and make sure they didn't farm lowbies and ruin the game for others.

This system is also rather easy to implement. as just have to enable pvp everywhere (or in what ever zones you want) AND create Player Killer tag. and a code to not give the tag if the person killed had the tag. and a game announcement on player vrs player death.

Now after this was done there could also become tiered ladder system tournement's/arena's and maybe guild wars later to come. but the above is a GREAT start.

****in grade A idea. That system would be very solid and I think really fits with Project Gorgon's playstyle.

 

[Cramit]

didn't read all the new replies I'm not on here long but I played a game before that did pvp really well....

Basicaly it was open world pvp. every zone. (but there could be safe area's)
if you killed a player you could get 1 of their items. (in that game you would get to choose 1 of 3 random items they had but it could be different)
then if you killed a player it announced it in world chat that you are now tagged as a PK'er and the zone you are in.
If a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would drop all items they had in their invatory (again could be adjusted)
IF a player killed a player while he was tagged as a PK'er they would not be tagged as a PK'er.
IF the PK'er could keep from being killed for X time the PK'er tag would be removed.

with this system you have rewards for pvp/killing a player. but you also have a huge risk so players have to decided if the reward/fun was really worth the risk. also with this system players are able to police the PK'ers and make sure they didn't farm lowbies and ruin the game for others.

This system is also rather easy to implement. as just have to enable pvp everywhere (or in what ever zones you want) AND create Player Killer tag. and a code to not give the tag if the person killed had the tag. and a game announcement on player vrs player death.

Now after this was done there could also become tiered ladder system tournement's/arena's and maybe guild wars later to come. but the above is a GREAT start.

This is an interesting idea, not a system I have thought of before. For whatever reason, not sure I am completely on board with it just yet, although that could be that I just have my heart set on a territory control type system, so maybe I just need to sleep on it.

My only issue with it, that I can think of, is whats the "reward" for pvp? I feel like there isn't really any reason to PVP in this system cause as soon as you do your a target for every single person on the server. Sure you get to loot a item from the person you killed but I'm not sure that's really worth putting a bulls eye on your back for everyone else on the server.

Maybe I need to think on it more, but that's the one issue I have with it at this point.

 

[awollsd]

This is an interesting idea, not a system I have thought of before. For whatever reason, not sure I am completely on board with it just yet, although that could be that I just have my heart set on a territory control type system, so maybe I just need to sleep on it.

My only issue with it, that I can think of, is whats the "reward" for pvp? I feel like there isn't really any reason to PVP in this system cause as soon as you do your a target for every single person on the server. Sure you get to loot a item from the person you killed but I'm not sure that's really worth putting a bulls eye on your back for everyone else on the server.

Maybe I need to think on it more, but that's the one issue I have with it at this point.

1st the territory control system could easily be part of guild wars or one of the battleground modes. so you can continue to have your heart set on it and still support this idea they aren't conflicting

2nd the PKer status is temporary and will be removed if you go X time (what ever the devs set it at) so as long as you can avoid the players who can actualy kill you then you'll be fine. you can do things like increase your sprint speed and teleportation skills to help you with this.

 

[happytr33z]

This is an interesting idea, not a system I have thought of before. For whatever reason, not sure I am completely on board with it just yet, although that could be that I just have my heart set on a territory control type system, so maybe I just need to sleep on it.

My only issue with it, that I can think of, is whats the "reward" for pvp? I feel like there isn't really any reason to PVP in this system cause as soon as you do your a target for every single person on the server. Sure you get to loot a item from the person you killed but I'm not sure that's really worth putting a bulls eye on your back for everyone else on the server.

Maybe I need to think on it more, but that's the one issue I have with it at this point.

Honestly man, you put too little value in the thrill of hunting someone down on a MMORPG. That alone will cause alot of people (myself included ) to go out pk'in, regardless of the danger. This will also lead to groups of PK's because since they're gonna be swarmed they will begin to band together to be able to stand a chance.

 

[Cramit]

Honestly man, you put too little value in the thrill of hunting someone down on a MMORPG. That alone will cause alot of people (myself included ) to go out pk'in, regardless of the danger. This will also lead to groups of PK's because since they're gonna be swarmed they will begin to band together to be able to stand a chance.

That may very well be true

*Edit* - Although, I will say that the most fun in PVP I've had was in DAoC, so that is really the pvp style I gravitate towards when thinking of PVP systems, in all honesty. However I will admit, it was the people I played with that made the most difference, so maybe just need a chance at this style to make me love it.

 

[happytr33z]

That may very well be true

*Edit* - Although, I will say that the most fun in PVP I've had was in DAoC, so that is really the pvp style I gravitate towards when thinking of PVP systems, in all honesty. However I will admit, it was the people I played with that made the most difference, so maybe just need a chance at this style to make me love it.

Sadly I never really experienced DAOC PvP, it was a bit before my time. I played it as a young kid but just messing around, maybe made it to level 10-15. My main PvP experience is in EverQuest(classic - kunark, soon to be velious.) and WoW from 05-08.

 

[Cramit]

Sadly I never really experienced DAOC PvP, it was a bit before my time. I played it as a young kid but just messing around, maybe made it to level 10-15. My main PvP experience is in EverQuest(classic - kunark, soon to be velious.) and WoW from 05-08.

Ah P99?

 

[awollsd]

Honestly man, you put too little value in the thrill of hunting someone down on a MMORPG. That alone will cause alot of people (myself included ) to go out pk'in, regardless of the danger. This will also lead to groups of PK's because since they're gonna be swarmed they will begin to band together to be able to stand a chance.

indeed and their will also be the groups of PKKer's that band together to hunt down the pker's (it was really fun I was always a pkk'er in the game that did it something like this) I only went pk when someone REALLY REALLY agrivated me haha

also sometimes us PKK'er and the PK'ers would be friendly and return anything that was dropped. we would just do it to have fun. it was a REALLY nice system

 

[Cramit]

indeed and their will also be the groups of PKKer's that band together to hunt down the pker's (it was really fun I was always a pkk'er in the game that did it something like this) I only went pk when someone REALLY REALLY agrivated me haha

also sometimes us PKK'er and the PK'ers would be friendly and return anything that was dropped. we would just do it to have fun. it was a REALLY nice system

Well I have helped hunt down folks in games like DAoC, although it was more like, we were looking for a group of other realm folks that were attacking people PVEing and things like that.

I'm sure I would enjoy the system if I got a chance at it, but I just don't recall ever being in a game where there was a server wide announcement and then I would go out hunting that person. It does sound like fun just not sure I would necessarily take part in it or not. Sounds like fun overall though.

 

[Rucati]

There are a lot of really good ideas in this thread. I realize I'm kind of just jumping in out of nowhere, but in my opinion it seems like having multiple solutions would be the best bet. I think this game lends itself extremely well to some sort of arena system, 2v2/3v3/4v4/5v5 whatever, because of how many skills and builds there can be it seems like it would be a crazy amount of fun coming up with good teams and what skills each person would want to use to synergize best with their teammates. Honestly just sitting around theorycrafting combinations would be fun for me, but I'm almost certainly in the minority there haha.

On top of arenas I think open world PvP would work incredibly well also. I'm not totally convinced something like battlegrounds or specific PvP areas would be great, only because I think if you spread PvP too thin it becomes worse (like WoW has done recently with their 8 BGs, plus arenas, plus world PvP, plus PvP zones), but open world PvP would be a lot of fun. I like the idea of a system where you can toggle yourself on or off with a long CD/cast time (like if you toggle PvP off it'll take 5+ minutes before you're actually safe) that maybe requires a quest or something similar.

But honestly there's tons of great ideas here, and I'd probably be happy with just about any PvP system. Probably wouldn't like dropping items when you die though, I mean it kind of depends on if you can drop what you currently have equipped, if you can that would probably be very rage inducing. If you can only drop items in your inventory that would still be annoying but much much more manageable. This also is dependent on how easy gear is to get of course, if you can easily replace items you drop then it wouldn't be a big deal, if it takes like 10 hours to get one item then you die and drop it, that's just no fun for anybody.

 

[awollsd]

But honestly there's tons of great ideas here, and I'd probably be happy with just about any PvP system. Probably wouldn't like dropping items when you die though, I mean it kind of depends on if you can drop what you currently have equipped, if you can that would probably be very rage inducing. If you can only drop items in your inventory that would still be annoying but much much more manageable. This also is dependent on how easy gear is to get of course, if you can easily replace items you drop then it wouldn't be a big deal, if it takes like 10 hours to get one item then you die and drop it, that's just no fun for anybody.

yeah the items that are "droppable" could be monitored and adjusted to allow the best reward factor while also keeping the rage factor to a minimum. I played another game that had it so only materials was droppable I think we should go beyond that but I could easily agree equipped gear could be non-dropbable and maybe a few other items. or maybe even gear in general is not droppable. but yeah would be tested/adjusted accordingly.

although there does need to be SOME rage factor or there'ld just be no feel of a risk for going PK haha and without risk there is no since of reward

 

[PhelimReagh]

Just want to point out then whenever these sandboxy style games come out, there are always those "sandbox must = PVP" cries. There are more than a few of these games already, and they always seem to mysteriously die, as the game becomes dominated by cheaters, exploiters and folks with serious socialization issues. The list of these types of games is long, and it's a list of MMO disasters and broken dev dreams. Hopefully Project Gorgon won't get sucked in by this mouthy minority and ruin a good thing.

 

[awollsd]

Just want to point out then whenever these sandboxy style games come out, there are always those "sandbox must = PVP" cries. There are more than a few of these games already, and they always seem to mysteriously die, as the game becomes dominated by cheaters, exploiters and folks with serious socialization issues. The list of these types of games is long, and it's a list of MMO disasters and broken dev dreams. Hopefully Project Gorgon won't get sucked in by this mouthy minority and ruin a good thing.

i don't think anyone is saying this game should be a pvp game. mearly that it should have some pvp aspects/options for those that want it.

also the words "minority" and "vocal few" have been said several times in these forums... I truly feel these statements are misguided.. I mean there is a reason the most successful games these days are ones with a good pvp set up. I mean anymore a game doesn't need any depth to succeed and can be purely pvp... is that because of a "vocal minority" in the gaming community...? nah...

but none of that really matters.. in the end it comes down to. Yes this game isn't really designed for pvp. we shouldn't cry/request that to be changed... however we should ask that they concider options for including pvp in to run within or parallel to what they are already doing... regardless if pvp community is a majority or minority it is still a part of the gaming community and would you really ask they completely close the door to those players before the game even gets started?

 

[rhonen]

I would rather have a dull stick shoved into my eye rather than see another game die by implementing PvP. There are tons of other games out there that has PvP, if you need to play in an environment like that then this may not be the game for you. Why can we not have a good game published that does not bow down to the PvP crowd? This game is all about the old school community and helping each other when that help is needed.

Ratero.

 

[awollsd]

haha I'm curious.. (personaly I don't care one way or the other) but....

why is that all pve players say's "we don't want it if you do then don't play" but then those like me that don't care too much and those others that want pvp say's "lets try to open the game to as many as we can"

pure pve players really think shutting off an entire group of gamers is the way to attract players? can there really be NO middle ground?

 

[rhonen]

I do not like it when PvP is introduced into an originally designed PvE game. Once this occurs then the PvP'ers find that "skill A" is better than "skill B" and then they want the Dev's to "rebalance" all the combat which will then become a never ending cycle as more skills are introduced into the game. What then happens is a watering down of the various classes and "like" skills all become pretty much the same but with different names. Why even bother to play more than one class utilizing the same skill sets? The only thing that will then make you "different" is the gear you wear and even then if you are using "skill C" then you have to wear "gear set D" for optimal affect. If you then find that one skill set and gear set is better and it proves to be dominate in PvP matches then naturally everyone will migrate in that direction until another "rebalance" occurs.

In all cases, the PvP'ers want to PvP but they also want to play on a populated server, which can be an issue if there are only a few of them. When this is the case the PvP'ers start wanting the Dev's to give them an "open area" or zone on the PvE server so they can PvP but remain on a populated server. Usually when this happens then anyone entering that area then becomes PvP flagged whether the want to PvP or not. Once the Dev's give them this area the PvE'ers soon start to leave the game since to their mindset the Dev's just introduced new content but it pretty much excludes all the people that do not want to PvP. In some cases the Dev's try to force PvE'ers into those areas by putting in rare crafting nodes or quest lines that are appealing and desire able to do but they then have to run the gauntlet of PvP'ers to harvest or complete those quests. If the player is not flagged PvP when entering the area then the PvP'ers complain that they can't attack the PvP'ers when they entered the PvP zone

Should the Dev's take on the expense of running another instance just for PvP when this game is still in its infancy? This would separate the population into a lopsided 2 instance system. If the Dev's did create a system for the two different communities then they would have to make sure that the two groups could never co-mingle. If the Dev's allowed the 2 groups to interact then the playable game area would be essentially be cut in half for all the PvE'ers who refuse to be flagged as PvP just to harvest or hunt in an area that is all ready being farmed by someone else on the PvE side. For the PvP'ers that would not be a problem for the could cross back and forth at will and have access to the NPC's and resources of both instances. Also why should the Dev's even consider this option when the game development resources are minimal when they need to be concentrating on cleaning up the existing bugged content and introducing new things into the game.

The players wanted a way to PvP and the Dev's created the potions that would flag you for PvP for a certain amount of time or you could use the perm PvP potion. The Dev's also gave us the PvP arena in Kur which will flag anyone that goes in as PvP. I think we should be grateful that the Dev's gave us this much already when there are so many other things they could be working on instead.

The game was designed by a person who loves the old school games. For the most part nothing is given to us. We have to explore the game environment, read in-game books to find clues for certain things, find things out on our own and talk to the various NPC's to learn skills and sell or make purchases. These things make the game enjoyable to play and well worth my time, rather in playing in a different game.

I think I got a bit side tracked but what I said still holds water, at least in my mind.

I'll just say that introducing PvP has been a bane on most games I have ever played. I would hate it if by introducing PvP in this game diluted Eric's vision so much that it no longer resembled what he was striving for.

This has grown much to large and doing this on an iPad is a pain so I'll cut it off here. I could write volumes on why I dislike PvP just as the PvP'ers could write volumes why they like PvP. I don't think that the two mind sets will ever find a balance that they both can live with.

Ratero.

 

[awollsd]

I do not like it when PvP is introduced into an originally designed PvE game. Once this occurs then the PvP'ers find that "skill A" is better than "skill B" and then they want the Dev's to "rebalance" all the combat which will then become a never ending cycle as more skills are introduced into the game. What then happens is a watering down of the various classes and "like" skills all become pretty much the same but with different names. Why even bother to play more than one class utilizing the same skill sets? The only thing that will then make you "different" is the gear you wear and even then if you are using "skill C" then you have to wear "gear set D" for optimal affect. If you then find that one skill set and gear set is better and it proves to be dominate in PvP matches then naturally everyone will migrate in that direction until another "rebalance" occurs.

There is already massive balance issues and they will always need addressed. I mean hammer hitting for over 1500 when geared is insane lol.. adding pvp while brind the balance issues to light in a more effeciant way does not create them. you saying without pvp we can just let the things remain imba?

In all cases, the PvP'ers want to PvP but they also want to play on a populated server, which can be an issue if there are only a few of them. When this is the case the PvP'ers start wanting the Dev's to give them an "open area" or zone on the PvE server so they can PvP but remain on a populated server. Usually when this happens then anyone entering that area then becomes PvP flagged whether the want to PvP or not. Once the Dev's give them this area the PvE'ers soon start to leave the game since to their mindset the Dev's just introduced new content but it pretty much excludes all the people that do not want to PvP. In some cases the Dev's try to force PvE'ers into those areas by putting in rare crafting nodes or quest lines that are appealing and desire able to do but they then have to run the gauntlet of PvP'ers to harvest or complete those quests. If the player is not flagged PvP when entering the area then the PvP'ers complain that they can't attack the PvP'ers when they entered the PvP zone

Should the Dev's take on the expense of running another instance just for PvP when this game is still in its infancy? This would separate the population into a lopsided 2 instance system. If the Dev's did create a system for the two different communities then they would have to make sure that the two groups could never co-mingle. If the Dev's allowed the 2 groups to interact then the playable game area would be essentially be cut in half for all the PvE'ers who refuse to be flagged as PvP just to harvest or hunt in an area that is all ready being farmed by someone else on the PvE side. For the PvP'ers that would not be a problem for the could cross back and forth at will and have access to the NPC's and resources of both instances. Also why should the Dev's even consider this option when the game development resources are minimal when they need to be concentrating on cleaning up the existing bugged content and introducing new things into the game.

All of this is pertaining to open world pvp this has little to nothing to do with guild battle rounds pvp or pvp arena's players enter or they don't. there is also many ways of doing other pvp types that all this part doesn't pertain to.. the devs can decide (if they wish) what they think is best and with our assistance can find things that avoid this...

The players wanted a way to PvP and the Dev's created the potions that would flag you for PvP for a certain amount of time or you could use the perm PvP potion. The Dev's also gave us the PvP arena in Kur which will flag anyone that goes in as PvP. I think we should be grateful that the Dev's gave us this much already when there are so many other things they could be working on instead.

This I agree with there is a lot more that needs attention and done first. but that doesn't mean discussions shouldn't start now to help insure that it is something both sides can live with. and not a waste of time.

The game was designed by a person who loves the old school games. For the most part nothing is given to us. We have to explore the game environment, read in-game books to find clues for certain things, find things out on our own and talk to the various NPC's to learn skills and sell or make purchases. These things make the game enjoyable to play and well worth my time, rather in playing in a different game.

again I agree but also don't think we should just auto exclude an intire (rather large) playerbase.

I'll just say that introducing PvP has been a bane on most games I have ever played. I would hate it if by introducing PvP in this game diluted Eric's vision so much that it no longer resembled what he was striving for.

It has been a savegrace for MANY MANY games aswell as poor pvp has been the sole factor for the death of many games...

 

[Brandon Lamb]

Just my humble request, please avoid PvP. I would much rather enjoy a game where dev team can spend their time on quality content versus the constant fight of balancing and having to create dual content. There are enough PvP games out already for those that want it.