Refinement?!?!

[Uriah Heep]

Since no one ( or no one that I have seen) is doing refinements, can we have the ingredients turned on as a cleanup point? maybe 500 pts each? can't sell em on vendor, can't get p;oints for em, can't recycle em into anything...I quit picking em out of the tchests, just leave em in there with all those rings and braces that never have any good mods :/

 

[Obsidian]

I went around three shards last night buying defense level refinements for studded leather and studded samurai leather (deflecting only). I'm collecting items for upcoming suit builds.

 

[Lord Lew]

How much are you paying on vendors?

 

[Theo_GL]

I have defense level ones for sale on GL for 6,500

 

[atinycow]

I went around three shards last night buying defense level refinements for studded leather and studded samurai leather (deflecting only). I'm collecting items for upcoming suit builds.

Go to the "shocking development" thread and look for the screenshot. Some guy was just throwing like hundreds of them on the bank floor (which nobody bothered picking up) and I think he said he had a lot more. I'm sure he'd hook you up.

 

[Obsidian]

I have defense level ones for sale on GL for 6,500

I bought 6 on GL last night for 5K a piece. Vendor was on the south side of Tokuno.

 

[pumpkin_escobar]

Invulnerability for 5k? I'd stop stealing if I can find those

 

[Obsidian]

Invulnerability for 5k? I'd stop stealing if I can find those

No, it was defense level. Perfect for my needs.

 

[pumpkin_escobar]

Oh right, forgot about the different ones. still new for me

 

[startle]

I think it may be too early for judgments to come in on whether or not refinements are "worth while"... I know that prices fluctuate widely across shards, which is to be expected given the newness of them... I'm going to give it a month at least before I offer an opinion. I haven't bothered to use them on my craftsmen yet, mostly because I haven't needed to create any new suits for my chars... But that's just me and a reflection on what I have been doing in-game lately... I think we should give them more time and see how it goes...

**EDIT**
At this point, I think that perhaps not enough people have expended the mental energy required to fully grasp how to use refinements to their full potential... I know I'm waiting and watching the Craftsman forum to see posts from some of our more expert craftsmen in that regard. Crafting the perfect suit has (for me) become a bit more complicated that I would wish, but then again - that's just me... I'm getting mentally lazy in my golden? years...

 

[atinycow]

a few lonely optimists will try to sell the notion that people are out there busily squirreling away materials, waiting to triumphantly roll out their new refined suits once they've had time to collect what they need, but let's be real: i just went through the first three or four pages of the trader's forum and found exactly zero threads from people buying or selling refinement material. startle's thread on the crafting forum has been up for almost three weeks and has a whopping four posts from people who are not him.

nobody cares.

the two most noteworthy posts on the subject of refinement have been this one asking if we can get points for throwing them in the garbage, and another one where a guy discussed throwing dozens of them on the floor and spending half an hour unsuccessfully begging in chat for someone to come take them. it is a failed system.

maybe next time they should listen when everyone on the forum hates one of their ideas.

 

[startle]

You may end up being right about refinements, atinycow.... But I'm still gonna reserve judgment for a bit longer...

 

[atinycow]

for the last few years, maybe from High Seas onward, there has been this design ethic in place among the UO developers that complexity for its own sake is fun. it's why cannons take 400 different items to fire, and crafting a match takes like 5 steps. it's why refinement is such a mess. and i just wonder, will the failure of refinement be enough to wake them up?

you know they expected to see a bustling little community of crafters buying and selling refinement bits, posting about how it works, documenting all the little nuances. instead they see nothing, no trading, no research, just a stratics mod telling them nobody uses refinement and asking to get points for throwing the materials in the trash.

and i wonder, will the difference between their expectations and the reality make them re-examine their design priorities? or will they just ride it straight into the ground?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

If Refinement was intended to be the Next Big Thing then they clearly were wrong and it begs the question of what made them think that.

However, if Refinement was intended to be "let's throw another thing at them that a couple of folks will use" then that's actually justifiable.

Though I did argue against it at the time, and I don't think I was wrong.

-Galen's player

 

[cdavbar]

I bought 6 on GL last night for 5K a piece. Vendor was on the south side of Tokuno.

I will have to run over there and re-stock Thank you for your purchase

 

[Tina Small]

you know they expected to see a bustling little community of crafters buying and selling refinement bits, posting about how it works, documenting all the little nuances. instead they see nothing, no trading, no research, just a stratics mod telling them nobody uses refinement and asking to get points for throwing the materials in the trash.

Some of your fellow players have spent a considerable amount of time doing all the things you say haven't been done. Below are some of the places where you can find discussion and data centered around the armor refinement system. I'm sure I've missed some others.

Discussion threads

http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-updated-publish-81-on-tc1.295073/
http://stratics.com/community/threads/updated-publish-on-test.295113
http://stratics.com/community/threads/refinements-yes-or-no.297490/
http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-publish-81-updated-on-tc1.297486
http://stratics.com/community/threads/uo-com-publish-81-comes-to-origin-and-izumo.297706
http://stratics.com/community/threads/an-april-shower-of-updates.298025
http://stratics.com/community/threads/it-is-good-being-a-thief.298073
http://stratics.com/community/threads/post-where-you-found-refinement-components.298095/
http://stratics.com/community/threads/why-do-these-new-ingredients-not-stack.298175
http://stratics.com/community/threads/refinement-component-spreadsheet-posted-on-google.298588/
http://stratics.com/community/threads/so-looking-at-these-refinements-is-anyone-going-to-actually-use-them.298411
http://stratics.com/community/threads/refinement-thread-needed-for-craftmans-data-chest.299287
http://www.uoforums.com/crafting-related/99831-armour-refinement-low-down.html

Permanently-posted description of the system
http://uo2.stratics.com/items/armor-refinement

Google spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj2lpjetLFwwdEtVTFlYalB6SDBSTXY4TDFNc3lHVWc#gid=0

In addition, both Stratics and UOGuide have also posted all the publish notes and formal announcements that have covered the armor refinement system.

I will gladly acknowledge that the armor refinement system isn't the finished system that anyone would like it to be. But to say it hasn't been discussed or documented is just wrong. And it would also be wrong to carry on and act as if it has caused serious harm to the game or the player-base. It hasn't totally knocked everything for a loop and caused a mass exodus of players. It isn't something that anyone is being forced to get involved with and use just to be able to log on and play.

I fully expect that the devs will make further changes and adjustments to the armor refinement system in upcoming publishes, just like they did with imbuing. We may not be happy that the team spent the time on working on this system in lieu of working on something else. However, that's pretty much "water under the bridge" at this point and fussing and fuming over it is like crying over spilled milk. You might be better served to put your time and energy into really studying the system, actually using it, and then coming here with a well-thought-out list of changes that could be made to the system to make it something that more people will use.

 

[S_S]

Go to the "shocking development" thread and look for the screenshot. Some guy was just throwing like hundreds of them on the bank floor (which nobody bothered picking up) and I think he said he had a lot more. I'm sure he'd hook you up.

Some "Girl"!

 

[cdavbar]

Go to the "shocking development" thread and look for the screenshot. Some guy was just throwing like hundreds of them on the bank floor (which nobody bothered picking up) and I think he said he had a lot more. I'm sure he'd hook you up.

Well, you can't assume that no-one would have picked any up. What shard was it on? What time of day was it? etc. etc. I run a very healthy Refinement Shop on Great Lakes. Some i have a lot of overstock on, but there are many I cant seem to keep in stock. Given the prices are a lot lower now than a month ago, but it still is a decent source of income when you compare it to the risk/time obtaining these items. I also craft mine up fully so buyers can just buy and use. If I ever see anyone dumping these I ALWAYS grab them. One mans trash is another mans treasure so to speak.

 

[startle]

......
I will gladly acknowledge that the armor refinement system isn't the finished system that anyone would like it to be. But to say it hasn't been discussed or documented is just wrong. And it would also be wrong to carry on and act as if it has caused serious harm to the game or the player-base. It hasn't totally knocked everything for a loop and caused a mass exodus of players. It isn't something that anyone is being forced to get involved with and use just to be able to log on and play.

I fully expect that the devs will make further changes and adjustments to the armor refinement system in upcoming publishes, just like they did with imbuing. We may not be happy that the team spent the time on working on this system in lieu of working on something else. However, that's pretty much "water under the bridge" at this point and fussing and fuming over it is like crying over spilled milk. You might be better served to put your time and energy into really studying the system, actually using it, and then coming here with a well-thought-out list of changes that could be made to the system to make it something that more people will use.

Under the heading "I wish I'd said it like that" is this ^^^^^^

Thanks Tina...

 

[atinycow]

I looked at the list of linked threads. Yeah I'm aware of the testing that went on while the system was on TC. I find it sort of funny that the list of threads includes titles like "Refinements, is anyone going to actually use them?" and "Why do these new ingredients not stack?" and a poll thread called "Refinements, yes or no?" (Spoiler alert, no!)

Meanwhile I still can't find anyone using the damn things, and the one guy talking about his "very healthy refinement shop" is basically selling bank floor litter for pennies.

 

[cdavbar]

selling bank floor litter for pennies.

That is why i make millions a week off refinements alone? Hand over your "bank floor litter" then, I'll gladly make the "pennies" your missing out on.

 

[Viper09]

If millions are pennies, can I have a few cents?

 

[atinycow]

That is why i make millions a week off refinements alone? Hand over your "bank floor litter" then, I'll gladly make the "pennies" your missing out on.

Wow, millions huh? Gee that's a lot.

Look, the most desirable refinements should be worth millions unto themselves this soon after the system's debut. There should be scads of hadcore PVPers and elite boss-soloing PVMers scrambling and fighting over them. There should be five pages of people posting to buy them in the trade forum.

I mean an item that can affect your suit in a meaningful way, but you need six of them, and the correct ones are all drops from a table of over a hundred items? There should be people knifing each other in the streets over them, at least for the first couple months. Instead by your own admission the price you could get cratered by 90% after the first week.

This just ain't what a successful addition looks like.

 

[Uriah Heep]

And this thread proves my point. When only one or two come to the rescue of the system...well, what can ya say. And the fact that others than me are tossing em and stuff, means they're fairly undervalued for the time spent. So at least make em worth some points!

 

[Gorbs]

...Look, the most desirable refinements should be worth millions unto themselves this soon after the system's debut. There should be scads of hadcore PVPers and elite boss-soloing PVMers scrambling and fighting over them...

I want to make it clear I am not defending the refinements system. The materials should stack and there shouldn't be as many levels. I don't see evidence that people want refinements to affect 2 to 4 resists. It seems apparent the players using them want to affect either 1 resist or 5. With that being said, the defense level are easy to come by and can't demand a price above 5-10k per. The invuln materials are harder to come by as you would expect. As a result, that seller you reference is getting up to 2 million for some.

 

[Frarc]

And this thread proves my point. When only one or two come to the rescue of the system...well, what can ya say. And the fact that others than me are tossing em and stuff, means they're fairly undervalued for the time spent. So at least make em worth some points!

I use them but i'm not in the mood to go into a never ending discussion with people who are against stuff they don't like.

 

[cdavbar]

Wow, millions huh? Gee that's a lot.

Look, the most desirable refinements should be worth millions unto themselves this soon after the system's debut. There should be scads of hadcore PVPers and elite boss-soloing PVMers scrambling and fighting over them. There should be five pages of people posting to buy them in the trade forum.

I mean an item that can affect your suit in a meaningful way, but you need six of them, and the correct ones are all drops from a table of over a hundred items? There should be people knifing each other in the streets over them, at least for the first couple months. Instead by your own admission the price you could get cratered by 90% after the first week.

This just ain't what a successful addition looks like.

I want to make it clear I am not defending the refinements system. The materials should stack and there shouldn't be as many levels. I don't see evidence that people want refinements to affect 2 to 4 resists. It seems apparent the players using them want to affect either 1 resist or 5. With that being said, the defense level are easy to come by and can't demand a price above 5-10k per. The invuln materials are harder to come by as you would expect. As a result, that seller you reference is getting up to 2 million for some.

I think Gorb laid it out pretty nicely. The reasoning for why people want different ones are their own. But with 3 daily rounds to my shops, along with the many I pull out of treasure maps (I have been a treasure hunter for as long as i can remember so refinements are just extra loot on something i always did anyways), I stack up quite a few high-end ones on top of the numerous low end ones. So Yes I do make millions per week on virtually no effort.

I have also sold some low -end items to people just wanting to "play around" with it. People who don't do test center or didn't have the time but wanted to see what it was, how it worked etc and see if it was something they would want to use.


Furthermore, it is ludicrous that everyone is so up in arms towards me. I am simply tired of Stratics members claiming since they didn't like it, no one does, and its a useless system. AGAIN, I am not sticking up for the system, it needs improved as I've said before. But what I have tried to do is lay out that there are people buying them, using them as PROVEN by my shop that sells numerous amounts of them. I am sure people aren't dumping millions on my vendors for the hell of it, its because I have something they want and/or need.

The system is here to stay. I am sure the dev's won't just get rid of it. Now instead of whining and complaining, maybe we should focus on getting them adjust the system to have 30 components instead of 120, make them stack-able, un-insurable, and lower their drop rates.

 

[Obsidian]

The system is here to stay. I am sure the dev's won't just get rid of it. Now instead of whining and complaining, maybe we should focus on getting them adjust the system to have 30 components instead of 120, make them stack-able, un-insurable, and lower their drop rates.

I agree except I don't think their drop rates need to be lowered. I think they drop at a fine rate. They just need to be stackable and I personally would get rid of the separate armor types and just divide by material (leather, wood, metal, stone). I don't quite see the need to separate studded samurai leather from studded leather for instance. They could be merged.

 

[Viper09]

The system is here to stay. I am sure the dev's won't just get rid of it. Now instead of whining and complaining, maybe we should focus on getting them adjust the system to have 30 components instead of 120, make them stack-able, un-insurable, and lower their drop rates.

That is certainly a good point. Constant squabbling about how no one likes it or no one uses it doesn't help. History is fairly reliable in telling us that the system isn't going anywhere.

I do agree that stack-able components would help a lot. And, if they can be stack-able, their drop rates should be lowered. I would also like it if the system could be a little more powerful (or least more worthwhile in what it can do overall) without making it too powerful and negate other skills. But I have no ideas in that area.

 

[mspossi]

Invulnerability for 5k? I'd stop stealing if I can find those

i have two in shard europa!

 

[The Zog historian]

That is certainly a good point. Constant squabbling about how no one likes it or no one uses it doesn't help. History is fairly reliable in telling us that the system isn't going anywhere.

I do agree that stack-able components would help a lot. And, if they can be stack-able, their drop rates should be lowered. I would also like it if the system could be a little more powerful (or least more worthwhile in what it can do overall) without making it too powerful and negate other skills. But I have no ideas in that area.

I can't find it right now, but one of the team said that refinements can't stack since they must be exactly the same. That doesn't mean multiple Scours of Defense for platemail can't stack.

My prayer is still that the effects will become stackable, giving use to all the otherwise worthless Protection and Hardening that I toss.