Why do these new ingredients NOT stack!!!! @$#&$%&^$$#

[Frarc]

People are overreacting.

Yup, as often.

The only thing we need is some sort a Davies Locker Chest for these refinements . Something we can craft ourself.

For now i set up 9 crates for me to sort them out until there is a better way.

3 Crates for uncombined Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Refinements and raw materials to combine with.
1 Crate for each Deflecting Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)
1 Crate for each Reinforced Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)

Its not ideal but for now it has to do until something betters comes along.

 

[Uvtha]

Yup, as often.

The only thing we need is some sort a Davies Locker Chest for these refinements . Something we can craft ourself.

For now i set up 9 crates for me to sort them out until there is a better way.

3 Crates for uncombined Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Refinements and raw materials to combine with.
1 Crate for each Deflecting Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)
1 Crate for each Reinforced Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)

Its not ideal but for now it has to do until something betters comes along.

I think the point is that there was no need for so many items, and people shouldn't have to have 9 crates, or a special storage item just to interact with this system. Had there been more thought put into the system, it could have been perfectly easy to interact with, and not clogged our houses up with more items that any other system (by a super large margin) and the only loss would be hours of joyless tedium.

I think people are seriously overreacting about the impact of the EFFECT of refinement on game play, but on the other hand I think people are NOT overreacting when they are angry about the impact on the refining system that it requires such a ridiculous number of non stackable items to interact with.

Think about it. Smithing requires a hammer, and at most 1 pile of each type of Ingot. So for that whole system you need at most 10 items, all of which but the tools stack. You could boost that up to 18 if you add in runics.
Refinement on the other hand, the system that ONLY alters items made from the elegant system above, requires literally hundreds of non stacking items. It's nonsensical.

Me personally, I am just angered that such a poor design was put into game. In game terms it doesn't bother me at all, because I will just ignore it. But as a person who like video games, and likes to think about designing them, I find it aesthetically abhorrent.

I admire your ability to make lemonade out of lemons, but I think sometimes you should be vocally dissatisfied that you got the lemons in the first place instead of the oranges you desired.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Yup, as often.

The only thing we need is some sort a Davies Locker Chest for these refinements . Something we can craft ourself.

For now i set up 9 crates for me to sort them out until there is a better way.

3 Crates for uncombined Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Refinements and raw materials to combine with.
1 Crate for each Deflecting Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)
1 Crate for each Reinforced Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)

Its not ideal but for now it has to do until something betters comes along.

I use one grid view container. Stretched.

 

[Tanivar]

... Adapt!

He is, just not in a way you care for. He plays a game to have fun, he's now going to adapt so he's still going to have fun playing a game, it just no longer involves UO.

B.S. overload tends to have that effect. All that dev time wasted when they could have put it into efforts to draw more New Players to the game.

Further evidence UO is a medical study to see how much crap a player has to be subjected to to break the addiction of online gaming...

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Because they can't, or so Kyronix said here:
http://stratics.com/community/threa...o-origin-and-izumo.297706/page-5#post-2263004

Looking back at the response in that thread sort of scares me... I feel as though the only way that each item is different is if, for some strange reason, the potential for each ingredient to enhance is tied to the resource at spawn. And if that's the case, it's a very wasteful way of handling things. These things should determine potential at use so that they can be stacked.

But truthfully, I'm almost covinced that the designers go out of their way to find ways to make things unstackable.

 

[Acid Rain]

I'm too stupid to quit UO but making the game more and more needlessly complex just makes me play less and less. There's plenty of other fun games around to play which u don't need a scientific graphing calculator and spreadsheets to play.

 

[Zosimus]

Yup, as often.

The only thing we need is some sort a Davies Locker Chest for these refinements . Something we can craft ourself.

For now i set up 9 crates for me to sort them out until there is a better way.

3 Crates for uncombined Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Refinements and raw materials to combine with.
1 Crate for each Deflecting Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)
1 Crate for each Reinforced Tailor,Carpenter and Smithing Combined (With bags for each armor type)

Its not ideal but for now it has to do until something betters comes along.

This is one time I will disagree with you.


So to solve the issue in your eyes is to add another shiny in the future? You really have to be kidding me. Lets add more shinnies to store the previous shinnies. I almost fell out of my chair from laughing.


If they would add such an item they are not going to make it craft-able. They will sell it in the Origin store and milk more money that way. There has been many players here that have boasted they would pour more money into the game to keep it going if they could. So why would the devs giveaway more storage for free.

The devs do listen, they do read, they know what they are doing. Because you all see the lack of communication the devs do pay attention. Armor changes, dungeon changes, loot changes, have more than one house on account, the game is to easy, we need more stuff, we need more storage, ect, ect, and ect. These and may have been mentioned here on Stratics for years and slowly they add these changes but they do listen.


Frarc. you basically mentioned one of the next things for the devs to add to the item store. Not as a freebie but you will pay for it. UO is a sub and item store game P2P and B2P combo ftw I it

 

[Frarc]

This is one time I will disagree with you.


So to solve the issue in your eyes is to add another shiny in the future? You really have to be kidding me. Lets add more shinnies to store the previous shinnies. I almost fell out of my chair from laughing.


If they would add such an item they are not going to make it craft-able. They will sell it in the Origin store and milk more money that way. There has been many players here that have boasted they would pour more money into the game to keep it going if they could. So why would the devs giveaway more storage for free.

The devs do listen, they do read, they know what they are doing. Because you all see the lack of communication the devs do pay attention. Armor changes, dungeon changes, loot changes, have more than one house on account, the game is to easy, we need more stuff, we need more storage, ect, ect, and ect. These and may have been mentioned here on Stratics for years and slowly they add these changes but they do listen.


Frarc. you basically mentioned one of the next things for the devs to add to the item store. Not as a freebie but you will pay for it. UO is a sub and item store game P2P and B2P combo ftw I it

Did you miss some parts of my posts???? Do you read my posts??? Or you only make up what you want???
WHERE THE HELL DID I MENTION WE NEED TO PAY FOR THE STORAGE???

I realy think i said this was NOT ideal and that i just made the best out of it. DON'T STINKING WRITE AND READ THINGS IN POST THAT ARE NOT WRITEN!!!!!!


NEXT TIME WHEN YOU QUOTE SOMETHING DON'T REMOVE PARTS LIKE THIS I SAID : "Something we can craft ourself."

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH SOME OF YOU?

 

[Uvtha]

Looking back at the response in that thread sort of scares me... I feel as though the only way that each item is different is if, for some strange reason, the potential for each ingredient to enhance is tied to the resource at spawn. And if that's the case, it's a very wasteful way of handling things. These things should determine potential at use so that they can be stacked.

But truthfully, I'm almost covinced that the designers go out of their way to find ways to make things unstackable.

I'm telling you, its part of a personal design aesthetic. I can see no other explanation. There are games and gamers who like a lot of realism in their play and that tends toward adding in steps that generally for most people are not fun. Like in order to make a sword you need to craft the hilt, the pommel and the blade, then forge the parts together, when you could have just saved all those steps like UO does and simplify the process of making the sword into a single action.

Like... I don't think that's an invalid way to want to make things, but it's not the way things have worked in UO for over a decade, and personally I don't think its a good idea for a MMO that is not primarily crafting focused.

 

[Berethrain]

It's funny that people like Cetric tell us that people won'tuse refinements yet he's done how many suits and says he doesn't pvm much.

 

[Ron Silverbeard]

Why not make a non-stackable "make it stackable" chest as a one year vet reward....if it is possible to do something code-wise, its easy...

 

[Zosimus]

Did you miss some parts of my posts???? Do you read my posts??? Or you only make up what you want???
WHERE THE HELL DID I MENTION WE NEED TO PAY FOR THE STORAGE???

I realy think i said this was NOT ideal and that i just made the best out of it. DON'T STINKING WRITE AND READ THINGS IN POST THAT ARE NOT WRITEN!!!!!!


NEXT TIME WHEN YOU QUOTE SOMETHING DON'T REMOVE PARTS LIKE THIS I SAID : "Something we can craft ourself."

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH SOME OF YOU?

Where do I say that you said you had to pay for storage?

I said:

If they would add such an item they are not going to make it craft-able. They will sell it in the Origin store and milk more money that way. There has been many players here that have boasted they would pour more money into the game to keep it going if they could. So why would the devs giveaway more storage for free.

For the reason why I said it because of your comment which I am disagreeing below.

The only thing we need is some sort a Davies Locker Chest for these refinements . Something we can craft ourself.

So since you like to use CAPS and try to yell at me which I wil lolololol @


Davies Locker Chest vet reward. So most likely if they add something like that they will do the same and make you pay for it. You want it to be craft-able which I highly doubt they wll do since the item store is a source of income for the game.


I did read what you wrote. I did quote everything you had in your post.. Look at my original post again. Look what I wrote in my orginal post and I made a comment about the craft-able comment that you said.

If they would add such an item they are not going to make it craft-able. They will sell it in the Origin store and milk more money that way. There has been many players here that have boasted they would pour more money into the game to keep it going if they could. So why would the devs giveaway more storage for free.

Nothing is wrong with me. You got all QQ because I disagreed with your post. I read it and gave my opinion on it and you want to yell. I have giving you props before many times and because I disagree with you one time you just want to claim I didnt read it when I quoted your whole bloody post and disected it with my opinion.

No wonder why the community is dieing. Hey I work for another site ( non UO related and no longer Stratics staff) and I have openly tried to help all parts of Stratics when time allows it but with this I can see my efforts are pointless. Lets it put this way, I have contributed more in the past few months as an ex staff more than some that do carry titles as staff on Stratics. Thas not including my time when I was the GW2 ME. Thats fact not ego bud. I can truly understand why many have moved onto other sites or games because of the behavior and negativity.


ciao

 

[kelmo]

Sounds like ego to me. *shrugs*

 

[Uvtha]

No wonder why the community is dieing. Hey I work for another site ( non UO related and no longer Stratics staff) and I have openly tried to help all parts of Stratics when time allows it but with this I can see my efforts are pointless. Lets it put this way, I have contributed more in the past few months as an ex staff more than some that do carry titles as staff on Stratics. Thas not including my time when I was the GW2 ME. Thats fact not ego bud. I can truly understand why many have moved onto other sites or games because of the behavior and negativity.

I don't understand, the community is dying because of how great you are? In fact of course, not egotistically.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I'm telling you, its part of a personal design aesthetic. I can see no other explanation. There are games and gamers who like a lot of realism in their play and that tends toward adding in steps that generally for most people are not fun. Like in order to make a sword you need to craft the hilt, the pommel and the blade, then forge the parts together, when you could have just saved all those steps like UO does and simplify the process of making the sword into a single action.

Like... I don't think that's an invalid way to want to make things, but it's not the way things have worked in UO for over a decade, and personally I don't think its a good idea for a MMO that is not primarily crafting focused.

I'm with you on the strange over-complexity that seems to be taking over the crafting system, but my response was really more directed at the method of design. Kyronix (I believe... too lazy to go look it back up) indicated that the reason these items do not stack is because they are unique. Meaning that each "blobby item" (no idea what the resources are) is actually "blobby item that can do this," "blobby item that can do that," "blobby item that can do the other," et cetera. So they can't stack. I'm guessing this is because some potential is tied to each individual item.

However, if they were simply spawned and looted as "blobby item," then all "blobby items" could stack.

My suggestion to the developers is to switch where potential or whatever it is that's causing them to be unique and is stored on the item is instead not generated until the actual item is used.

I mean, no offense to whomever was responsible for this design decision, but truthfully, this is an iconic example of, "It seems like the developers do not play their own game."

 

[Theo_GL]

I really don't get why people just want nothing to change. Its an mmo. If you want static content play Skyrim. MMOs change all the time.

Change is ok. Change that completely invalidates armor that already takes hours and hours to craft is not good. People don't play the game for the fun of making brand new suits of armor costing millions and hours of time. They presumably play the game to PvP, PvM, particpate in events etc.

Uo should throw out all the armor and go back to a simplier system, easy to understand and 75% based on hunted items and 25% on crafted items. Putting together a suit should be a straightforward effort.

Today it is 10% looted items (all artifacts like crimson's etc) and 90% crafted. This has essentially KILLED PvM. What in the world would ever hope to get from a greater dragon, white wyrm, blood elemental that you would use on any single character? There used to a time that people would fight over hunting spots for bloods. No one stays in the game because 'hey, sitting in front of a spreadsheet for 3 hours crafting, reforging, enhancing, breaking, powdering armor is so much fun!' I'm a crafter and I think its tediuos and not fun. I think it sucks that to make starter armor for someone it takes me 30 min. What a waste of time and half the time the person I'm making it for logs off and gives up.

 

[Theo_GL]

I'm with you on the strange over-complexity that seems to be taking over the crafting system, but my response was really more directed at the method of design. Kyronix (I believe... too lazy to go look it back up) indicated that the reason these items do not stack is because they are unique. Meaning that each "blobby item" (no idea what the resources are) is actually "blobby item that can do this," "blobby item that can do that," "blobby item that can do the other," et cetera. So they can't stack. I'm guessing this is because some potential is tied to each individual item.

However, if they were simply spawned and looted as "blobby item," then all "blobby items" could stack.

My suggestion to the developers is to switch where potential or whatever it is that's causing them to be unique and is stored on the item is instead not generated until the actual item is used.

I mean, no offense to whomever was responsible for this design decision, but truthfully, this is an iconic example of, "It seems like the developers do not play their own game."

+200

 

[Thrakkar]

Every pvper I have heard has said that no one will use refinements in pvp, thats even assuming that the system was easy to use, which it is not. If you up you dci you will be quickly killed by mages. If you up your resists you will quickly be killed by warriors. Being balanced against both types of pvper is much much much more preferable.

Refinement would have had little impact on pvp. No one would leave themselves vulnerable to half of the other pvpers.

But isn't this what balance is all about?

Either you have this "all-is-the-same" and "every-template-can-beat-every-template" balance, which sounds a little bit boring to me, since players of equal skill would either just be able to come to a draw or win by luck.

On the other hand, there is this "rock, paper, scissors" balance. And the rock-template will never be able to beat the paper-template, when both are played by equally skilled players. Of course when playing just 1-vs-1 you'll going to loose a lot. But when teamed up, it's all about strategy and tactics to beat the other players.

Every pvper I have heard has said that no one will use refinements in pvp, thats even assuming that the system was easy to use, which it is not.

Yeah, people tend to say that because it's new. But then there will be these theorycrafters, who start juggling with the numbers, build some awesome suits and then beat the crap out of you. Then people will start to listen.
I'd no be surprised, if a team of specialists could easily beat a team of jack of all trades.

 

[Uvtha]

But isn't this what balance is all about?

Either you have this "all-is-the-same" and "every-template-can-beat-every-template" balance, which sounds a little bit boring to me, since players of equal skill would either just be able to come to a draw or win by luck.

On the other hand, there is this "rock, paper, scissors" balance. And the rock-template will never be able to beat the paper-template, when both are played by equally skilled players. Of course when playing just 1-vs-1 you'll going to loose a lot. But when teamed up, it's all about strategy and tactics to beat the other players.

Pvp is all about timing and luck. Every template should be able to beat every other template. It should then be up to player skill and experience.

Yeah, people tend to say that because it's new. But then there will be these theorycrafters, who start juggling with the numbers, build some awesome suits and then beat the crap out of you. Then people will start to listen.
I'd no be surprised, if a team of specialists could easily beat a team of jack of all trades.

Its not very hard to imagine the scenarios. With 65 resists from your 70dci you get cursed down to 55 resists, then you are dead real fast. From 75 resists you have hardly any DCI, and any dexter chain ais you and your dead. If you run around for a day with a suit like that people are going to catch on fast and you will end up with a target on your back.
I can see people getting say 50 or 55 dci, but the impact there will not be that high. Even with 70dci vs a regular person with 45 hci and presumably the same skill its only like a 20% bonus to evade. Substantial yes, but you will still get hit, and mages will nuke you.
...That is if the system wasn't such a pain in the ass.

 

[Uvtha]

Change is ok. Change that completely invalidates armor that already takes hours and hours to craft is not good. People don't play the game for the fun of making brand new suits of armor costing millions and hours of time. They presumably play the game to PvP, PvM, particpate in events etc.

Uo should throw out all the armor and go back to a simplier system, easy to understand and 75% based on hunted items and 25% on crafted items. Putting together a suit should be a straightforward effort.

Today it is 10% looted items (all artifacts like crimson's etc) and 90% crafted. This has essentially KILLED PvM. What in the world would ever hope to get from a greater dragon, white wyrm, blood elemental that you would use on any single character? There used to a time that people would fight over hunting spots for bloods. No one stays in the game because 'hey, sitting in front of a spreadsheet for 3 hours crafting, reforging, enhancing, breaking, powdering armor is so much fun!' I'm a crafter and I think its tediuos and not fun. I think it sucks that to make starter armor for someone it takes me 30 min. What a waste of time and half the time the person I'm making it for logs off and gives up.

Well I think that i've been clear that this change is obviously NOT ok, because of its design, but the effect of the system is fine is what I am saying. People are complaining because they can't make a suit and wear it for the rest of time, and I don't just mean this change. Any time a change happens that forces people to rework characters or get new piece of armor or weapons some people throw a fit because they are being forced to change.

It's an mmo, changes are inevitable. Especially after 15+ years.

I agree with you on both imbuing killing pvm, I was among those who were concerned that it would do just that when it was introduced, and this change, but at least you can op out of refinements and it will have no real impact on your game play.

I was more generally speaking about people who don't like change because it's change.

I do on the other hand think a lot of people look at suit building the wrong way. Mainly that their suit MUST be maxxed out in order for them to play at all, which is really far from the truth. If you want to pvm its really easy to get a suit together thats good enough. Especially with the enhanced loot. It won't be a perfect maxxed out suit, but you only really need a specifically designed suit if you are soloing bosses or pvping.

 

[Uvtha]

I'm with you on the strange over-complexity that seems to be taking over the crafting system, but my response was really more directed at the method of design. Kyronix (I believe... too lazy to go look it back up) indicated that the reason these items do not stack is because they are unique. Meaning that each "blobby item" (no idea what the resources are) is actually "blobby item that can do this," "blobby item that can do that," "blobby item that can do the other," et cetera. So they can't stack. I'm guessing this is because some potential is tied to each individual item.

However, if they were simply spawned and looted as "blobby item," then all "blobby items" could stack.

My suggestion to the developers is to switch where potential or whatever it is that's causing them to be unique and is stored on the item is instead not generated until the actual item is used.

I mean, no offense to whomever was responsible for this design decision, but truthfully, this is an iconic example of, "It seems like the developers do not play their own game."

No, I understand what you are saying. I see no reason that xxx of xxx should not stack with all other of the same kind. Like what possible difference is there in a "Varnish of defense" with every other "Varnish of defense"?

 

[Lord Frodo]

Pvp is all about timing and luck. Every template should be able to beat every other template. It should then be up to player skill and experience.

That went away with AoS (Age of ****).

 

[Uvtha]

That went away with AoS (Age of ****).

I don't think so. Well... initially sure, AOS was a case study in poor implementation. Itemization simply increases the prep time and helps shape the methods of approach.

But today access to high end gear is really open. There are no absurd item power level gaps like in the first few years of AOS.

I think you definitely need more skill today than you needed back then, and you also have a much wider array of effective approaches.

Back in the day pvp was pretty uniform. Precast explode, run on screen, hally whack, and finish off with an ebolt. There were very few pvp pure warriors, and the few there were had managed to macro resist up super high when no one had it. Even then there was zero skill involved in warrior pvp. Just pure luck.

I think the most significant different between the olden times and current day are that pvpers and pvmers don't really mix. Back in the day all you needed to fight anyone was magery, so pvmers had a much better chance to defend themselves.
Of course the pvp and pvm populations are all but completely segregated now a days, so it's not a big deal.

 

[Love them Redheads]

Don't really care if they stack or not. What few I got have gone into a bag which will be there when my house falls in the next few months.

This idotic patch was my breaking point. There were a few ok things, but even the simplest thing such as the status bar "fix" is so hosed up and clearly done by someone who doesn't actually play this game.....what's the point.

I logged in here after a few weeks to see if anyone else was as disappointed and confused by the things in this patch as myself, clearly alot of people feel the same way I do and tried to tell our jackass, skeleton filled Dev team, but apparently they don't give a rat's ass.... so neither do I.

Good luck everyone

 

[Lord Frodo]

I don't think so. Well... initially sure, AOS was a case study in poor implementation. Itemization simply increases the prep time and helps shape the methods of approach.

But today access to high end gear is really open. There are no absurd item power level gaps like in the first few years of AOS.

I think you definitely need more skill today than you needed back then, and you also have a much wider array of effective approaches.

Back in the day pvp was pretty uniform. Precast explode, run on screen, hally whack, and finish off with an ebolt. There were very few pvp pure warriors, and the few there were had managed to macro resist up super high when no one had it. Even then there was zero skill involved in warrior pvp. Just pure luck.

I think the most significant different between the olden times and current day are that pvpers and pvmers don't really mix. Back in the day all you needed to fight anyone was magery, so pvmers had a much better chance to defend themselves.
Of course the pvp and pvm populations are all but completely segregated now a days, so it's not a big deal.

Totally disagree, Pre-AoS PvP was all about skill and timing because it was easy for everybody to have the same gear. Magery was not the only PvP temp, a good Dexer did just as well or a Tamer with Drags was one bad mother to try and solo. Now PvP is all about Gear, because without the Gear you do not stand a chance. I grew up in Fel and also PvPed pre Age of **** and when PvP turned item based I stopped just like a lot of people I knew back then. PvP isn't Player V Player anymore it is now Gear V Gear.

 

[Uvtha]

Totally disagree, Pre-AoS PvP was all about skill and timing because it was easy for everybody to have the same gear. Magery was not the only PvP temp, a good Dexer did just as well or a Tamer with Drags was one bad mother to try and solo. Now PvP is all about Gear, because without the Gear you do not stand a chance. I grew up in Fel and also PvPed pre Age of **** and when PvP turned item based I stopped just like a lot of people I knew back then. PvP isn't Player V Player anymore it is now Gear V Gear.

Pure Warriors pre aos were 100% luck. There were no special moves, you just targeted and ran up to them. That was it, and it required 0 skill. Even when we got specials pre aos it was just rng luck.
Pure Tamers were 100% luck (still are) all kill and thats it, requires 0 skill, and was radically imbalanced. Trust me on that one I was one of the first people on lake superior to tame a dragon and they could 1hit ko a lot of people at the time.

The ONLY pvping that required any player skill was with magery. That is the ONLY skill that involved timing, which basically is what player skill boils down to. Everything else was rng vs rng.
And I don't know you to tell you, but if you had a vanquishing weapon you were going to beat someone with a ruin weapon every time... unless magery was involved. Remember pre aos runic crafted long spears? I do.

That is not the case any more.
Warriors now require technique with weapon specials and with warrior skills like bushido and chivalry, all of which require player skill to use effectively.
Magery is now one of 4 magic skills all require player skill to use effectively.
Tamers still don't require much skill, but they are also no longer gods.
Hell even bards can pvp a little now a days.
Add into that a large range of expendable items that require player skill to use effectively.

Also it may not have been about gear (though it also was), but it absolutely was about character skill level. Skills went up super slow, and people who started early, or who macroed had a serious, and in the first year I would say practically insurmountable advantage. A buddy of mine and I did a lot of macroing early and our skills were wayyyy higher than most people, and as such it was really easy to kill them.
I personally look at gear choices as the modern skill levels, but they are far more equitable. Skills are now the template that you design your gear setup around. Both are just time sinks, and currently the time required to make a competitive suit is at an all time low

I agree AOS was a big problem but only because like the previous skill gap problem there was a serious item gap problem. Some people lucked out and got artifacts or lucky drops in the first month and were gods. The horrible difficulty in finding good loot lead to many people being seriously over powered simply by chance or obsessive farming.

But... that is not the case any more. It is easier than ever to get high end gear now, and players are more balanced that they have ever been. Gear vs gear only matters when one side has decidedly better gear, and that doesn't really happen anymore. The best uberest gear may give you and edge, but that edge is small, and used without skill will garner you little. Its not like early AOS days when you could strap on an arti suit and turn into Godzilla.

If you want to argue that pvp in the olden days was more SIMPLE I absolutely agree, because that is obviously true. If you wanted to say it was more ELEGANT... I would also agree there. But if you want to say it required MORE skill... that's just not true.
Even for mages thats just not true. There are many more factors and many more actions that you foes can throw at you to consider, and more ways of dealing with them.

Back then it was Skill level + player skills JUST for mages. Now its gear set up + player skill for many different varieties of Melee AND Magic characters.

The only thing old pvp had over new pvp is simplicity, and elegance. But it was also much much much more shallow and there were a very limited number of effective tactics.

 

[pumpkin_escobar]

Who asked for this anyway?
Fix greater dragon colors in EC client!!

 

[Adol]

I'm pretty staggered people are arguing PvPers won't bother with having a suit that hinders them against 1 template or the other... Do you really think that one or two obsessives aren't going to make three suits and fast macro swap them out depending on whether they see a solo mage, a solo dexer, or a group of players requiring the standard suit? And do people really not see what that will do to an already lacking in community spirit competitive scene when a few people start rolling in always Rock against your Scissors suits?

I'm also pretty staggered people are still arguing that "You don't have to make one to PvM if you don't want too".... do you really think Kyronix and the rest of the Devs aren't going to design future content with the idea that "Well, someone with this MegaSuit can handle X, so Y should be..."

I'm especially staggered to see the simple math which indicates how many items there will be to cover every potential Refinement. 240. Really, 240? And that they don't stack? I've got 4 from MiBs so far and was pretty disgusted to see they're limited by both buff type and armour it would be targeted at... but really again? A system that, even if people struggle through and understand it, the average small home owning crafter isn't going to be able to engage in because the requested specific ingredients are stupidly rare and take up so much space...

Did I mention stupidly rare? Someone else mentioned the fishing quests, which I've been trying to break the loot tables for and... yes, stupidly rare like Charybdis because when you've got 50 odd types of bait, even without weighting for rarity the chances of you rolling the stuff you need are small to begin with. And how many people now do fishing quests with any regularity? Honestly, if Age of Shadows wasn't precedent enough, we've got the example of fishing quests from the same devs within the last year... and they've admitted they'll be looking again at that and the over-frustrating pirate loot too in the coming year.

Honestly, I love the game, I want to support the devs... but this design is just a complete cluster-("Buccs-Den is where criminal designs are hatched" -Ed)

 

[Uvtha]

I'm pretty staggered people are arguing PvPers won't bother with having a suit that hinders them against 1 template or the other... Do you really think that one or two obsessives aren't going to make three suits and fast macro swap them out depending on whether they see a solo mage, a solo dexer, or a group of players requiring the standard suit? And do people really not see what that will do to an already lacking in community spirit competitive scene when a few people start rolling in always Rock against your Scissors suits?

One or two obsessives? Possibly, but no regular players are going to carry around 3 suits of heavy metal armor along with everything else they might need for pvp, and be constantly gauging the setup of their foes and switching armor willy nilly. Of course that's assuming that someone can get 2 maxed out suits. As you note the resources are very rare and very specific, and since you would need the highest quality resource to make a max refined suit it could literally take a year (or more) to accomplish. And if they want to change their suits... they have to repeat that absurd process.
So no, I don't see that happening.

I'm also pretty staggered people are still arguing that "You don't have to make one to PvM if you don't want too".... do you really think Kyronix and the rest of the Devs aren't going to design future content with the idea that "Well, someone with this MegaSuit can handle X, so Y should be..."

Not really. What, they make a monster with 160 wrestling? Thats all they could do that would even take these suits into account, make something hit like 20% more. Just makes it slightly harder to solo, which people shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

I'm especially staggered to see the simple math which indicates how many items there will be to cover every potential Refinement. 240. Really, 240? And that they don't stack? I've got 4 from MiBs so far and was pretty disgusted to see they're limited by both buff type and armour it would be targeted at... but really again? A system that, even if people struggle through and understand it, the average small home owning crafter isn't going to be able to engage in because the requested specific ingredients are stupidly rare and take up so much space...

Did I mention stupidly rare? Someone else mentioned the fishing quests, which I've been trying to break the loot tables for and... yes, stupidly rare like Charybdis because when you've got 50 odd types of bait, even without weighting for rarity the chances of you rolling the stuff you need are small to begin with. And how many people now do fishing quests with any regularity? Honestly, if Age of Shadows wasn't precedent enough, we've got the example of fishing quests from the same devs within the last year... and they've admitted they'll be looking again at that and the over-frustrating pirate loot too in the coming year.

Spot on there.

 

[Adol]

One or two obsessives? Possibly, but no regular players are going to carry around 3 suits of heavy metal armor along with everything else they might need for pvp, and be constantly gauging the setup of their foes and switching armor willy nilly. Of course that's assuming that someone can get 2 maxed out suits. As you note the resources are very rare and very specific, and since you would need the highest quality resource to make a max refined suit it could literally take a year (or more) to accomplish. And if they want to change their suits... they have to repeat that absurd process.
So no, I don't see that happening.

Which is why I said "one or two." But it only takes one or two to ruin the entire atmosphere. On every shard already there is, every single day, endless blather in General chat about how template X is gimp, tactic Y is cheesy, blah blah blah... now imagine one person, maybe two, actually does have suits that are specifically tailored to be overpowered compared to your skill set. And considering the past 15 years of just Ultima Online, let alone MMO gaming in general, you honestly don't think there'll be someone who'll put the time in to get that suit, just so they can fluff their e-peen? You must have a remarkably innocent view of human nature, old chap!

And you don't think people will carry 3 suits...? What else are you carrying in that backpack for PvP? My PvM miner carries 3 suits already, and his backpack gets full to the brim with iron ore. One suit for Luck in dungeons and salt petre bonuses, one suit for PvM combat against spawned elementals, one with Mining Gloves and Garg Axe equipped... Someone pointed out to me yesterday that this isn't easy to do with the Classic Client and UOAssist; but I play the Enhanced Client, where I just need to press a hotkey and I can swap between suits in under half a second. "Meh, adapt or die to my l33t m1|\|1|\|g s1k1|_|_z, classic scrubs..."

The only limitation in PvP is insurance costs... but hey, can't vendor those duped Bless Deeds now, right? Why not just add them to a mega-suit?

And again... all it takes is one person. The PvP community crucified the Shard Of The Dead because it had one-shot weapons in it which gave one person a sudden, unfair advantage. The idea of giving suits which can be tailored precisely to nullify particular templates will take how long to become insanely unpopular, do you think? You suggest a year to make one. I think we'll see the suspicions people have got one within a few days. To go with their suspected Speeed Haxxorz and so forth.

That the crafters aren't going to be be easily able to make those suits will just increase the anger more not less, because you won't easily be able to adapt to them, or even the fear that they're out there.

Not really. What, they make a monster with 160 wrestling? Thats all they could do that would even take these suits into account, make something hit like 20% more. Just makes it slightly harder to solo, which people shouldn't be able to do in the first place.

Don't you see the inherent contradiction in your argument? You argue for one specific way they could make it harder, but then say you're not too fussed if they do, because that's how it should be; of course if you've not got that suit, what is to say that the content they set which is supposed to be soloable, and which you think probably should have been too, can't be soloed because the Devs assume you'd have that modified suit due to power creep? Using your own example, because the base mobs carry 20% more wrestle now because the Devs think you'll have the suits they were so eager for us to have?

Spot on there.

I'm glad we agree on that at least. Which should give you some idea of the GIANT COCK UP I think these new items are. Foolishly over complicated, ridiculously varied in materials, applied on top of an already insane crafting system, hard to reach and overbalancing in certain areas. That I don't PvP is irrelevant, I understand the wider context of the game and it's not going to be good for you guys in the long run either.

 

[Uvtha]

Which is why I said "one or two." But it only takes one or two to ruin the entire atmosphere. On every shard already there is, every single day, endless blather in General chat about how template X is gimp, tactic Y is cheesy, blah blah blah... now imagine one person, maybe two, actually does have suits that are specifically tailored to be overpowered compared to your skill set. And considering the past 15 years of just Ultima Online, let alone MMO gaming in general, you honestly don't think there'll be someone who'll put the time in to get that suit, just so they can fluff their e-peen? You must have a remarkably innocent view of human nature, old chap!

And you don't think people will carry 3 suits...? What else are you carrying in that backpack for PvP? My PvM miner carries 3 suits already, and his backpack gets full to the brim with iron ore. One suit for Luck in dungeons and salt petre bonuses, one suit for PvM combat against spawned elementals, one with Mining Gloves and Garg Axe equipped... Someone pointed out to me yesterday that this isn't easy to do with the Classic Client and UOAssist; but I play the Enhanced Client, where I just need to press a hotkey and I can swap between suits in under half a second. "Meh, adapt or die to my l33t m1|\|1|\|g s1k1|_|_z, classic scrubs..."

The only limitation in PvP is insurance costs... but hey, can't vendor those duped Bless Deeds now, right? Why not just add them to a mega-suit?

And again... all it takes is one person. The PvP community crucified the Shard Of The Dead because it had one-shot weapons in it which gave one person a sudden, unfair advantage. The idea of giving suits which can be tailored precisely to nullify particular templates will take how long to become insanely unpopular, do you think? You suggest a year to make one. I think we'll see the suspicions people have got one within a few days. To go with their suspected Speeed Haxxorz and so forth.

That the crafters aren't going to be be easily able to make those suits will just increase the anger more not less, because you won't easily be able to adapt to them, or even the fear that they're out there.



Don't you see the inherent contradiction in your argument? You argue for one specific way they could make it harder, but then say you're not too fussed if they do, because that's how it should be; of course if you've not got that suit, what is to say that the content they set which is supposed to be soloable, and which you think probably should have been too, can't be soloed because the Devs assume you'd have that modified suit due to power creep? Using your own example, because the base mobs carry 20% more wrestle now because the Devs think you'll have the suits they were so eager for us to have?



I'm glad we agree on that at least. Which should give you some idea of the GIANT COCK UP I think these new items are. Foolishly over complicated, ridiculously varied in materials, applied on top of an already insane crafting system, hard to reach and overbalancing in certain areas. That I don't PvP is irrelevant, I understand the wider context of the game and it's not going to be good for you guys in the long run either.

I obviously agree it's a bad system, but I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the ramifications. Time will tell I wager.

Of course it won't bother me one way or another since I play on siege and no pvpers is going to go through the grueling process of getting the refinements they need every time they drop a suit.