I agree their work has gone a long way in helping me understand this refinementing thing more! I am still confused but I think I have sort of an idea nowYou 2 are doing 1 hell of a job. Keep up the good work.
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Total animal form nerf = no one fights outnumbered ever again
Looks like the trammies that couldn't kill 2 ppl with 6 blubies whined enough to make them change this to the point where ppl will engage even less often.
I for one will not be pvping outnumbered on a faction character anytime soon if these changes are put forth. Less pvp = good for UO? If there are some actual faction pvpers in this thread that wish to speak up, now would be a good time.
Looks like the trammies that couldn't kill 2 ppl with 6 blubies whined enough to make them change this to the point where ppl will engage even less often.
I for one will not be pvping outnumbered on a faction character anytime soon if these changes are put forth. Less pvp = good for UO? If there are some actual faction pvpers in this thread that wish to speak up, now would be a good time.
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Dude, NEVER a pvp powerhouse? lol. I learned how to play a garg thrower in about 5 minutes, and I was killing decent mages who've been playing their template for years. Even stealthers have a learning curve. Now I'm not saying Throwers should completely suck, just because it's easy, but it shouldn't be so easy. If you're not good at playing a thrower, you must be the worst UO player to ever step in felucca (no offense). And the weapons aren't slow, when you consider that every thrower stacks stamina and SSI, and hitfireball closes the gap on a mages ability to cast. And wings catching on terrain? wtf? I play tons of gargoyles and never once have I ever gotten stuck in a tree lol. Yes, there's a lot of things throwers can't do. They're not a versatile class. but the versatility is often WHERE THE SKILL IS. Throwers are overpowered because they have 5 abilities and they STILL wreck face. Just because they have less though, doesn't mean the few things they do do should be so overpowered that no one else could compete. Sure, they should be pretty solid at gross damage output, and dismounting. If they weren't good at what they do, they wouldn't be a viable class. That doesn't mean they should be able to spam moving shot at practically no mana cost, while still doing 35+ dmg a shot (with fireball and velocity); and 2-3 second bandage timers while running nonstop (including pots and confidance if they have bushido). They shouldn't be able to throw a weapon that does 25 dmg a hit with a fireball and hit velocity on top of it WITHOUT USING ANY MANA at 2 second intervals, with the fireball hitting on the one second mark, While using bandages and pots at the same time! that's crazy. I don't think throwers should have one really hard nerf, I just think they should have a few small ones. If those hits did 15-20 damage instead of 20-25 or if they threw their weapon once every 2.75 seconds as opposed to 2.25 they would still do really good damage, still be good dismounters, and still be good at staying alive.
Now the 15 bluebies can sit at the gate and wonder why they have absolutely no one to fight what so ever. I for one will not fight outnumbered after this nerf nor will I play my reds at yew gate (Unless its even numbers) ever again until this is fixed.
Unfortunately your math isn't even accurate as they throw much faster than 2.25 with the glaive you've indicated. This coming from someone who has a thrower and 4 mages and been on both sides of that fight many times. Try 1.5 with 150+ stam and 60 SSI. Let's not even get into 1.25 when you stack stam to 210.
Totally agree I am so happy about this change!Hit Lower Defense: should be slightly tweaked, so it allows a negative defense on targets that have 0 DCI. (the current changes, make HLD completely useless in PvM?)
^^^ don't blame us PvPers for this change btw. ^^^
Ninjitsu>Animal Form: Is now interruptable & is No longer effected by Faster Casting. Couldn't be better, I absolutely love this change. amazing. !!!!!!!!!!!!!
overall, very good publish. HLD vs DCI, does need a slight tweak though.
Good points, but protection is not hard to beat. Mana Vamp + Paralyze Spam and watch how hard it is for them to spam cleansing winds. But to add to your point cleansing winds is slow and doesn't heal through higher lvl poisons, or mortals. I think if anything the diminished returns on group heals should just be increased for when people stack and spam it during grinders. That way the individual heal wouldn't be nerfed any further, but spamming it in grinder fights would. the point is not to make it useless, just not overpowered and it's only very slightly overpowered if you ask me.
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Yes, but I was just giving those numbers as an example for arguments sake. The real point is that nerfing their speed or damage by a little bit will make them less over-powered, but still a viable class.
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Well they won't be a viable class outnumbered I can assure you of that. lol Dexxers find it hard enough to cram skills as is let alone get 105+ ninja to be sure never to fail animal form assuming no interruption with 0 FC. Viable class? More like class dismissed bc all the solo reds are dead and gone.
Welcome to Yew Moongate Luna style!
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With the Animal Form nerf, the only classes that aren't going to get worse at surviving outnumbered are the one's that already suck at it. The Animal Form nerf is going to hurt all people (with ninja) in regards to surviving ganks, not just throwers. So it doesn't really unbalance it at a throwers expense, because throwers have ninja for the same reason that mages do. But when you combine this with the stamina nerfs, it is going to be a lot harder for throwers to survive solo, but it's not like they aren't currently PRO at it. Look at exploit, he's impossible to kill. And yes they will still be viable, because they'll still do awesome damage, have pretty good survivability, and still be super leet at dismounting. Although, a lot less useful than a good mage. but with a class so easy to play, shouldn't it be that way?
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I donlt think we have been given exact numbers but there have been a couple posters here that have tested it. Plate apparently gives very good stamina protection but one complaint I heard from a couple people is that once you get low on health the stamina hits get pretty high. Like 20 stamina loss per hit even in plate I think. So it sounds like that could be adjusted a bit. I need to hop on test and test all of this myself lol. Just been busy making a new template.
I have no idea what this patch is about and all I see are tons of numbers being thrown about. My biggest problem is that it's very likely this patch does next to nothing in the way of positive gameplay, and yet will cause everyone to relearn and rethink UO. Too many negatives, not enough positives for it to be worthwhile.
im working out some numbers for a suit i might make, just gunna throw this out there ebfore i get on test later
if your final mana cost on a special is 5.2, doesn anyone know how that rounds? up or down?
if your final mana cost on a special is 5.2, doesn anyone know how that rounds? up or down?
You 2 are so funny. Fellies do more whinning about PvP then anybody else. LOL
Trammies who came in post tram and have no idea what the true aspect of this game is make me laugh. The only thing UO is good for is PVP, anything else and you can play a 3D game with better graphics and content. A lot of the changes in this publish relate to PVP. Obviously people who play in the real part of UO "Fel" are going to discuss it more than anyone else. Next time, think before you type please.
i dont mind the interuptable part at all, but i think they should of kept the fc part.
Protection by itself isn't hard to beat, I agree with you.
But, a "decent" mystic in protection & stone-form is impossible once they get the first cleanse off.
While there is still a handful of things I am not happy about. I actually think there is some good things about this publish. For instance more armor types that are useful as well as weapon types. Sure there still needs to be more tweaks and changes made. But imo while it still needs work I feel pretty positive about this publish right now.
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Epic, unless she's not logging into the site the last time Bonnie bothered to read anything was Feb 14th. I can't believe that she can't give two moments to read this thread herself but at this point who would be shocked.
http://stratics.com/community/members/mesanna.284/
http://stratics.com/community/members/mesanna.284/
If I'm not mistaken admins and such can login without folks seeing that they are on, and therefore probably wouldn't log her
as "logged on or visited" Besides if anything mesanna has always been involved in keeping us informed. Whether or not you agree with the
direction the developers are going, you cannot deny the fact that they put a lot of work into this. Whether or not you agree
Let's all of us remember it's the idea's that we should be.... voicing our opinions loudly about, notthose that are trying to progress
our game. Besides I doubt this patch goes through as is. If anything I have seen more community activity from devs than I
have seen in a very very long time. Just my 2 cents.
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Granted that is true that we have seen discussion I still feel as the "UO Producer" we should hear some feedback of some sort. At best we have seen lipservice and at worst it's near disregard. Yes they adjusted some things but there has been actually little discussion and no reasoning. Is there a plan?
Perhaps instead of her being accused of lipservice, she is waiting to have something solid to give to us. Maybe aliens abducted her.
Either way I just don't see it as our place to question her dedication to this community. Nor any of the devs for that matter. Don't
get me wrong, I think some of this patch is overkill, but I do have the confidence, based on recent history (see new loot system), that
not only will they listen to what we are saying, but will also act on it. BTW is lipservice one or 2 words?
I haven't seen anyone faction fight outnumbered in years. When i actually do see it, it's only a stall method until more can arrive.
I made the animal form suggestion via feedback to hard cap the speed. Even Stevie Wonder could see without a hard cap this would give pixie chucking, mystic mages with enough ninja to get away the clear advantage over the already resource tapped actual ninja template.
That being said i did also suggest decreasing the casting time to form slightly before applying the hard cap.
Just off the top of my head here are ways to make this work.
1: bola macro - put everyone on foot.
2: use pixies and conflags to stall enough to form
3: invis then form/remount from there
4: test and see if casting focus works with animal form
5: actual ninja's can shadowstrike or just smokebomb and form
Surely between EP, healing stones, mini heals and fields mages can stay alive long enough to remount and get away. It's past time to remove the training wheels and man up people.
My thoughts on the direction the game is taking, and where I think it needs to go:
---1. Throwers need a nerf- Their speed, damage, and survability is just wayyy too overpowered. I like their support role of being good/quick dismounters, but not with the changes coming to Animal form. Which leads me to point 2.
---2. Animal Form- does NOT need to be nerfed. When you Nerf Animal Form, you indirectly Buff Dismounting. Dismounting in this game is easier than ever. Mages can sleep bola, Gargoyles can dismount on the move, Archer Tamers can dismount in an instant, and Dexxers have ridingswipe and sometimes use lesser hiryus. The one thing that makes UO unique from other games is the ability to fight while mounted. WoW PvP is lame because when you're fighting, you're slow as hell, so if you're outnumbered there's nothing you can do about it. In Ultima Online smaller groups/individuals have more potential than in other games because with enough skill and ingenuity they can escape, kill, and even possibly win the fight. They can use their environment and templates in such a way to allow them to escape, and if they're smart, they can also lay traps and get quick kills and win the fight. Dismounting is more than powerful as it is. It balances the game in the sense that it makes it actually possible to kill certain people and certain templates who are otherwise impossible to kill on the move. But that doesn't mean that it should be so powerful that every time someone is dismounted outnumbered, they should most certainly die. Animal Form is a sacrifice of one's skill points to not negate, but alleviate the consequences of being dismounted. Remember Animal Form already has it's weaknesses. you can't cast anything or use any abilities, You still have to wait for your remount timer to run out, and you still cant remount until you first uncast animal form. Please do NOT nerf Animal Form. Unless you want the pvp that makes this game so great and unique to be more like WOW's. Simple, and crappy.
---3. Cleansing Winds Nerf- That's reasonable.
---4. Divine Fury Nerf- ...Seriously? lol
---5. Two Handed Weapon Buff- This is what I want to see. Don't Nerf one handed weapons, they're not overpowered. Two handed weapons are just underpowered. In doing this, you are not destroying anyone's templates/gear set up, but you are making one underpowered one more viable and also adding additional options for people to play the game in their own unique way. I think you need to take it one step further and give two handed weapons an extra imbuable property. Those who pvp will use it on Balanced, essentially making two handed weapons just as useful as one handed. In PvM they will use it on something else making two handed weapons significantly better. So instead of increasing the intensity cap to 600 on exceptionally crafted items, why not make it 550 and decrease the intensity cost of balanced to 50 instead of 100? Two handed weapons will be viable for pvp again, and for using one handed weapons in pve, the ability to use pots will be a small price to pay for 1 magical property and 50 intensity points.. You will also make it easier for archers in pvp, who unlike throwers have to use balanced, and you will also bring back the PVE Archer, a class long forgotten. And to keep Archery from being overpowered, you can always slightly nerf the damage of some of the weapons to equal the damage output of a thrower.
---6. Stamina Potion Nerf- This is perhaps somewhat needed, but not to such a high extent.. It's ridiculous that dexxers/throwers and the like have 100% stamina at all times, but that doesn't mean they should easily bottom out either. A mages only source of power comes from his/her mana and he/she constantly has to manage it. Dexxers and Throwers don't need mana to do a baseline damage. They can do that baseline damage while waiting for their mana to go up (unlike mages), where as a mage has to wait for mana, or expend their current mana at the cost of their long term mana. Dexxers/Throwers should have to learn to manage their stamina and resources a little better, and not just spam total refresh pots every time it drops a little bit. That said, it shouldn't be too difficult. They just shouldn't have 100% all the time, but the focus of the fight should not be keeping their stamina from bottoming out.
---7. HLD Buff- And Yes, it is a buff, because it's only a Nerf against people with less than 45 DCI. And Who in PvP Has less than 45 DCI? (No One). HLD Does not need a buff. It is already easy enough to hit mages with HLD as it is. I play both sides of the ball. It's fine as it is. If this is a way to keep dexxers/throwers happy because they're upset about the stamina nerfs, just reduce the stamina nerfs. If it's because throwers are upset because they don't have 50 hci anymore, well guess what? No one else does either. The point is, it's balanced as it is. If you nerf the stamina too hard, or nerf mages that stack dci too hard, you're just going to unbalance the game and make everyone unhappy. A lot of the people who complain about things like not hitting people enough, just either aren't good pvpers, have bad suits, or just like to complain a lot. Most people would agree that generally speaking, other than throwers, the game is pretty balanced as it is. It's just in these forums you don't get the opinion of the majority, you often get the opinions of the people most upset by something.
---8. You want to make armor other than Woodland and Leather Armor more viable, so you... Nerf them? And then give them a LMC bonus? Wtf?... this is completely senseless. And if this has anything to do with nerfing throwers, well newsflash, they'll just wear leather gear. If you want to make gear like platemail viable again you have to give it a slight bonus, like you did with woodland armor (2hpr, 5 HCI, 10 DI, etc). Although, Lower mana cost is NOT the way to go. Logically, it doesn't even make sense. And this whole new Armor Refinement Idea was a good idea, that turned stupid when you started adding consequences, like reduced resists and DCI. If you want to make the gear better, specifically with refinement, make refinement make an *actual* difference. Not a Benefit with an equal consequence. That's not going to make it as useful as woodland/leather gear. I for one am NOT going to craft anything other than Woodland and Leather with these changes, and I've made at least 25+ PvP/PvE suits since imbuing came out. *Get Rid* of the Lower Mana Cost, and make refinement better. Make refinement work where heavy armor like platemail gives slight max resist increases without a nerf to dci, or at the expense of other resists. Each piece of Woodland gear can have either 2 HPR, 5 HCI, or 10 Dmg Inc. If you made it where with refinement Each piece of refined platemail increases each resist on the piece by 1, and each of your maximum resists by 1, With a 6 piece suit people would be able to get 76/76/76/76/76. A balanced substitute for the 10 HPR, 25 Hit chance increase, or 50 dmg increase, they would otherwise get from Woodland Gear. Also, a lot of people aren't going to wear a platemail helm, because they'll wind up going with something like a mace and shield glasses, so really they'll only have 75/75/75/75/75 (cursed 75/65/65/65/65), although the option of that platehelm would be available. You can also include the option to, instead of raising the resists cap, you can go with a slight dci or hci bonus (which for dexxers/throwers dci doesn't come easy). Instead of each resist being raised by one, why not make where the dci and the dci cap, or the hci and hci cap are raised by 1 point. Then dexxers/throwers would be able to get their hci/dci cap up to 50-51 (5-6 piece set). This is sound, sensible, and people would love it. It would make people want to use this, and at the same time those people with woodland/leather armor wouldn't be angry that their gear is nerfed, or no longer up to par.
---9. Fix the Curse bug- sometimes I can't recurse people even after their current curse wears out. Curses should be allowed to be replaced without penalty.
---10. I like the changes to the special moves. Especially moving shot. 25 base damage throws with a fireball and a hit velocity at the cost of 15 mana? 9 mana when you include 40 lmc? Ridiculous. Mages can't hit on the move, and with the stamina pot nerfs it's gonna be harder for dexxers too. A moving shot is often for the killing blow, and it should be a little bit more of an investment. As for all of the other changes, I think they're balancing, and making weaker moves more powerful allows for more versatility and options when deciding what weapons and specials to use.
---11. If you really want to make the game more interesting and balanced, why don't you just add a little to some of what's already there. Like everyone agrees that chivalry is kind of useless unless you have a 4/6 template. So how about capping chivalry at 2/6 like everything else, but adding a few spells like some of the other templates. For example, a chivalry spell that works like attunement, but instead of absorbing melee damage, it absorbs magical damage. Or a chivalry spell that works like a wall of stone. Call it a light prism or something. Or a chivalry spell that actually does some single target damage, like "smite" or something. Or a ninjitsu spell that causes the person to enter stealth, but creates an image that continues to run in the direction they were facing. Stuff like this would allow for more versatility amongst non-mages, and make something less used like chivalry a little more useful. And of course I'm not just referring to chivalry, you can actually make *new* spells for any spellbook. But new content like this would make the game more fun, keep people playing, and most likely bring some old players back. It can't be too difficult to do. I mean something like the chivalry spell to cast a wall would be the same coding as a wall of stone, except with different artwork.
Anyhow, that's all I can think of for now. and Yes, I did just take two hours to type that lol. But hopefully people like it and it makes the game better.
---1. Throwers need a nerf- Their speed, damage, and survability is just wayyy too overpowered. I like their support role of being good/quick dismounters, but not with the changes coming to Animal form. Which leads me to point 2.
---2. Animal Form- does NOT need to be nerfed. When you Nerf Animal Form, you indirectly Buff Dismounting. Dismounting in this game is easier than ever. Mages can sleep bola, Gargoyles can dismount on the move, Archer Tamers can dismount in an instant, and Dexxers have ridingswipe and sometimes use lesser hiryus. The one thing that makes UO unique from other games is the ability to fight while mounted. WoW PvP is lame because when you're fighting, you're slow as hell, so if you're outnumbered there's nothing you can do about it. In Ultima Online smaller groups/individuals have more potential than in other games because with enough skill and ingenuity they can escape, kill, and even possibly win the fight. They can use their environment and templates in such a way to allow them to escape, and if they're smart, they can also lay traps and get quick kills and win the fight. Dismounting is more than powerful as it is. It balances the game in the sense that it makes it actually possible to kill certain people and certain templates who are otherwise impossible to kill on the move. But that doesn't mean that it should be so powerful that every time someone is dismounted outnumbered, they should most certainly die. Animal Form is a sacrifice of one's skill points to not negate, but alleviate the consequences of being dismounted. Remember Animal Form already has it's weaknesses. you can't cast anything or use any abilities, You still have to wait for your remount timer to run out, and you still cant remount until you first uncast animal form. Please do NOT nerf Animal Form. Unless you want the pvp that makes this game so great and unique to be more like WOW's. Simple, and crappy.
---3. Cleansing Winds Nerf- That's reasonable.
---4. Divine Fury Nerf- ...Seriously? lol
---5. Two Handed Weapon Buff- This is what I want to see. Don't Nerf one handed weapons, they're not overpowered. Two handed weapons are just underpowered. In doing this, you are not destroying anyone's templates/gear set up, but you are making one underpowered one more viable and also adding additional options for people to play the game in their own unique way. I think you need to take it one step further and give two handed weapons an extra imbuable property. Those who pvp will use it on Balanced, essentially making two handed weapons just as useful as one handed. In PvM they will use it on something else making two handed weapons significantly better. So instead of increasing the intensity cap to 600 on exceptionally crafted items, why not make it 550 and decrease the intensity cost of balanced to 50 instead of 100? Two handed weapons will be viable for pvp again, and for using one handed weapons in pve, the ability to use pots will be a small price to pay for 1 magical property and 50 intensity points.. You will also make it easier for archers in pvp, who unlike throwers have to use balanced, and you will also bring back the PVE Archer, a class long forgotten. And to keep Archery from being overpowered, you can always slightly nerf the damage of some of the weapons to equal the damage output of a thrower.
---6. Stamina Potion Nerf- This is perhaps somewhat needed, but not to such a high extent.. It's ridiculous that dexxers/throwers and the like have 100% stamina at all times, but that doesn't mean they should easily bottom out either. A mages only source of power comes from his/her mana and he/she constantly has to manage it. Dexxers and Throwers don't need mana to do a baseline damage. They can do that baseline damage while waiting for their mana to go up (unlike mages), where as a mage has to wait for mana, or expend their current mana at the cost of their long term mana. Dexxers/Throwers should have to learn to manage their stamina and resources a little better, and not just spam total refresh pots every time it drops a little bit. That said, it shouldn't be too difficult. They just shouldn't have 100% all the time, but the focus of the fight should not be keeping their stamina from bottoming out.
---7. HLD Buff- And Yes, it is a buff, because it's only a Nerf against people with less than 45 DCI. And Who in PvP Has less than 45 DCI? (No One). HLD Does not need a buff. It is already easy enough to hit mages with HLD as it is. I play both sides of the ball. It's fine as it is. If this is a way to keep dexxers/throwers happy because they're upset about the stamina nerfs, just reduce the stamina nerfs. If it's because throwers are upset because they don't have 50 hci anymore, well guess what? No one else does either. The point is, it's balanced as it is. If you nerf the stamina too hard, or nerf mages that stack dci too hard, you're just going to unbalance the game and make everyone unhappy. A lot of the people who complain about things like not hitting people enough, just either aren't good pvpers, have bad suits, or just like to complain a lot. Most people would agree that generally speaking, other than throwers, the game is pretty balanced as it is. It's just in these forums you don't get the opinion of the majority, you often get the opinions of the people most upset by something.
---8. You want to make armor other than Woodland and Leather Armor more viable, so you... Nerf them? And then give them a LMC bonus? Wtf?... this is completely senseless. And if this has anything to do with nerfing throwers, well newsflash, they'll just wear leather gear. If you want to make gear like platemail viable again you have to give it a slight bonus, like you did with woodland armor (2hpr, 5 HCI, 10 DI, etc). Although, Lower mana cost is NOT the way to go. Logically, it doesn't even make sense. And this whole new Armor Refinement Idea was a good idea, that turned stupid when you started adding consequences, like reduced resists and DCI. If you want to make the gear better, specifically with refinement, make refinement make an *actual* difference. Not a Benefit with an equal consequence. That's not going to make it as useful as woodland/leather gear. I for one am NOT going to craft anything other than Woodland and Leather with these changes, and I've made at least 25+ PvP/PvE suits since imbuing came out. *Get Rid* of the Lower Mana Cost, and make refinement better. Make refinement work where heavy armor like platemail gives slight max resist increases without a nerf to dci, or at the expense of other resists. Each piece of Woodland gear can have either 2 HPR, 5 HCI, or 10 Dmg Inc. If you made it where with refinement Each piece of refined platemail increases each resist on the piece by 1, and each of your maximum resists by 1, With a 6 piece suit people would be able to get 76/76/76/76/76. A balanced substitute for the 10 HPR, 25 Hit chance increase, or 50 dmg increase, they would otherwise get from Woodland Gear. Also, a lot of people aren't going to wear a platemail helm, because they'll wind up going with something like a mace and shield glasses, so really they'll only have 75/75/75/75/75 (cursed 75/65/65/65/65), although the option of that platehelm would be available. You can also include the option to, instead of raising the resists cap, you can go with a slight dci or hci bonus (which for dexxers/throwers dci doesn't come easy). Instead of each resist being raised by one, why not make where the dci and the dci cap, or the hci and hci cap are raised by 1 point. Then dexxers/throwers would be able to get their hci/dci cap up to 50-51 (5-6 piece set). This is sound, sensible, and people would love it. It would make people want to use this, and at the same time those people with woodland/leather armor wouldn't be angry that their gear is nerfed, or no longer up to par.
---9. Fix the Curse bug- sometimes I can't recurse people even after their current curse wears out. Curses should be allowed to be replaced without penalty.
---10. I like the changes to the special moves. Especially moving shot. 25 base damage throws with a fireball and a hit velocity at the cost of 15 mana? 9 mana when you include 40 lmc? Ridiculous. Mages can't hit on the move, and with the stamina pot nerfs it's gonna be harder for dexxers too. A moving shot is often for the killing blow, and it should be a little bit more of an investment. As for all of the other changes, I think they're balancing, and making weaker moves more powerful allows for more versatility and options when deciding what weapons and specials to use.
---11. If you really want to make the game more interesting and balanced, why don't you just add a little to some of what's already there. Like everyone agrees that chivalry is kind of useless unless you have a 4/6 template. So how about capping chivalry at 2/6 like everything else, but adding a few spells like some of the other templates. For example, a chivalry spell that works like attunement, but instead of absorbing melee damage, it absorbs magical damage. Or a chivalry spell that works like a wall of stone. Call it a light prism or something. Or a chivalry spell that actually does some single target damage, like "smite" or something. Or a ninjitsu spell that causes the person to enter stealth, but creates an image that continues to run in the direction they were facing. Stuff like this would allow for more versatility amongst non-mages, and make something less used like chivalry a little more useful. And of course I'm not just referring to chivalry, you can actually make *new* spells for any spellbook. But new content like this would make the game more fun, keep people playing, and most likely bring some old players back. It can't be too difficult to do. I mean something like the chivalry spell to cast a wall would be the same coding as a wall of stone, except with different artwork.
Anyhow, that's all I can think of for now. and Yes, I did just take two hours to type that lol. But hopefully people like it and it makes the game better.
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i pieced through your text wall, you have some points but i'll just reiterate, most of this publish is fairly solid outside of refinements (dci/hld changes) and a few tweaks and adjustments to proposed changes, maybe a slight tweak to animal form, a tweak to how parry works with balanced 2 handers, a little over here and there like any other publish and this thing should be ready to go.
---9. Fix the Curse bug- sometimes I can't recurse people even after their current curse wears out. Curses should be allowed to be replaced without penalty.
Good call on this one for sure. How this ever slipped thru I'll never know.
Good call on this one for sure. How this ever slipped thru I'll never know.
It's not a text wall okay... It's more of a text garden !~
But either way, that's lame to know. I think this publish is going to suck as is.BTW Cetric, Your Tag about nerfing paper is Hilarious. That's why I try to think from all perspectives.
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So you think that I am a post-Tram Trammie, now that is funny. UO is a lot more than just PvP even Pre-Tram, just because YOU think it, does not make it so. UO was fun b4 all you PKers came out of the wood works and destroyed it and fourced UO to either do away with non-con PvP or make Tram. Go try BSing someone else about UO Pre-Tram.
Ninja was being abused by every possible template and needed a change. I'd personally rather they tied animal form to hiding and stealth letting true ninjas be the same and stop everyone else from using it as an auto escape with almost 0% chance of being killed.
But I'm far less concerned with that then the armor changes which as I've mentioned are completely idiotic, overly complicated and finally make no F-ing sense even from an RP sense.
While some of us asked to make other armors more useful, this crap is out of left field and is un-needed. There have been and still are so many better suggestions that would improve other armors and would actually make the game less complicated.
But I'm far less concerned with that then the armor changes which as I've mentioned are completely idiotic, overly complicated and finally make no F-ing sense even from an RP sense.
While some of us asked to make other armors more useful, this crap is out of left field and is un-needed. There have been and still are so many better suggestions that would improve other armors and would actually make the game less complicated.
I just want to congratulate the developers on having the fortitude to stick to their guns. Normally when a set of changes are virtually laughed off the boards, your first inclination is to go "Okay never mind!" the way MrTact did years ago when he was pushing his diminishing returns idea. But not this dev team.
After the way ephemeral items became such a huge hit...
After the way everyone flocked to be the first to kill Charybdis and claim their very own Mana Burst armor...
After the way they totally revived Factions with their incredibly well-received changes...
Well after all that, and more, they've certainly earned the right to ignore the torrent of garbage hurled at their DCI changes and such. This is an expert dev team that clearly has it's finger on the pulse of what UO players want and need. I mean, it's a good thing they revamped weapon speed/damage, but still left all the slow weapons slow. I really think this is going to be the decade where people decide a 4s melee weapon is worth using for some reason. And I hope they never bother to add real resists to dragon armor and such, because it would clearly be terrible if it were usable.
I hated all those dexer arties with Mage Armor on them being useful. Good call.
After the way ephemeral items became such a huge hit...
After the way everyone flocked to be the first to kill Charybdis and claim their very own Mana Burst armor...
After the way they totally revived Factions with their incredibly well-received changes...
Well after all that, and more, they've certainly earned the right to ignore the torrent of garbage hurled at their DCI changes and such. This is an expert dev team that clearly has it's finger on the pulse of what UO players want and need. I mean, it's a good thing they revamped weapon speed/damage, but still left all the slow weapons slow. I really think this is going to be the decade where people decide a 4s melee weapon is worth using for some reason. And I hope they never bother to add real resists to dragon armor and such, because it would clearly be terrible if it were usable.
I hated all those dexer arties with Mage Armor on them being useful. Good call.
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All the sarcasm doesn't really lend any help man.
mage armor on dexer arties is still fine, many dexers wil still run the same as before. I just laid out a suit last night that involves some plate and studded. it still has the glads collar in it, and some reading glasses. i'm not really all that concerned about the glads collar not giving me any lmc or stam return as its benefits are too great to worry about it.
heavier weapons will be more used, because of the balanced ability, higher intensity, and better base damages. While i wanted slower weapons should come down .25s across the board i also see why you wouldn't want to do that. I already have several plans for some heavier weapons. It is very simple to run high stam/ssi to achieve max damages. Base damage is underrated in pvp, and the base damages in pvm, being so crucial, received a boost. Everyone wants to complain, but just take a look at some of it. all those fencer sampires that used leafblades, not for feint, but for chain ai. now they can toss the long spear on and get more damage. there are so many cases across the board of better scaled damages. a slight adjustment still needs made, allowing balanced two handers to function as 1 handed when it comes to parrying. without a parry chance then even a 1 handed weapon with human 20 parry has better parry chance than a two hander with balanced. On top of that you could make a SICK 2 handed weapon without balanced because of the 600 intensity, and use it the old way.
I'm bolding this, because i think it is important lol - The nerf to disarm is a step in the right direction. it really doesn't change the fact that everyone will still disarm like crazy though. sure you can't spam it, but in most cases you don't need to spam it people just call it spam. on my dexer i don't think i disarm more than once in the 10 second window as it is. The suggestions about adding something where weapskill+anatomy-100 gives you X amount of inherent block ability (like 120evalint+100anat gives 120 block) would be the PERFECT disarm nerf. It means that disarm on a dexer would be a purely defensive move, unless done to a mage weapon mage. in which case, that is the risk vs. reward of using a mage weapon. I dunno who said this idea first, but it is amazing and makes more sense then any other possible disarm change ever proposed, and the ebst part of it is, the calculation is already in the game for EvalIntel+Anatomy.
the archery/throwing balance was a great job, archery is boosted just a touch to stay on par with throwing damage, throwing is nerfed just a touch to not be so overpowering. removing the 5hci from the gargoyle was a must. while a small % higher to hit, it played out to be a huge difference. I'd say throwers and archers are very well balanced now in overall templates. one has to carry arrows and use balanced while having a slightly higher imbueing cap, but can enhance on bows. the other doesn't need balanced or resources and gets better suit resists, but cannot get some of the nice human artifacts and has to deal with the "sweet spot" effect.
the mana cost changes to moving shot, infectious strike, conc, and crushing are very needed and will make crushing and conc weaps used more. many specials have been made a hair more useful. conc and crushing are my example because, while still less damage than an armor ignore, can be half the mana cost and offer other benefits. You don't think someone running around with a heavy axe crushing blowing people, knocking out 10 stam a crack isn't going to be interesting to see? as for the infect and ms, those specials being spammed at 3 and 6 mana a pop was kind of rediculous. seeing them at more of a 5 or 6 and 10 or 12 when spammed makes a little more sense. a dp dexer could dp you all day, and an archer/thrower could moving shot you all day.
the animal form change is good, maybe a little overdone, but i truly believe an adjustment was necessary. I understand the complaints about ganks and ninja being the savior. but we all know that it was used for way more than that. Wasn't anyone else annoyed when they chased someone around, said screw this. i'm gunna foot him, they fight for 5 seconds and then the other guy ninja forms off? At least now you can disrupt that. I think the FC removal was a bad idea, as if someone wants to invest it or has it they should be able to use it. Making it interpretable was nice. Anyone know if it can be disrupted while in protection? If not, mages can cast protection and animal form off like they used to when being ganked. which is fine i guess. I just hate how survivable a stealth ninja dexer is with animal form and smoke bombs.
The divine fury mini nerf and stam leech nerf seem pointless and i don't think either are necessary unless you want to tick of every soloing sampire in uo.
The only part that you really hit the nail on the head about is the refinements. I can totally see this refinement system going the way of the mana burst and ephemeral armor, unused. it is hard, complicated, and random. on top of that, i don't see many places where i'd be willing to sacrifice my dci cap for more resist or vice versa. it might have its limited uses, and limited uses+complication=won't get used. On top of that it changes hld and everyones understanding of how to build a suit. I completely agree that if the devs want to make a change to HLD, they should just make it take 50% of a users DCI and cap dci's effectiveness from hld at 80. It is less complicated than even the current system of dropping 25dci, it just makes more sense. Suits with 45dci get a slight boost from HLD, and overcapping is no longer possible as the best you could do after 80 would be 40 dci.
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This isn't in the publish but i'm just gunna throw it out there. playing any dexer that does not hit 300 skill points for the -10 mana cost is still completely a pain and maybe more now in some cases. More skills need to be added to that list or something. Currently you cannot play an archer or thrower without throwing in a skill such as fencing (leads to disarming) or something semi useless like bushido. Something inherent should be added to it, like if you have gm tact & anatomy it counts as 100 or something.
Some skills that should be added off the top of my head -
Wrestle
Alchemy
MAAAYBBBEEE... Chivalry
But i really think that there should be a boost if you have tactics/anat above gm or something. It doesn't need to be 100, heck make it 40..50..60
Some skills that should be added off the top of my head -
Wrestle
Alchemy
MAAAYBBBEEE... Chivalry
But i really think that there should be a boost if you have tactics/anat above gm or something. It doesn't need to be 100, heck make it 40..50..60
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Uh, how about they just fix the Curse spell so that it stops being so chained, abused and overpowered?
Up to 2 minutes of huge percentages of stat and resist reduction for a spammable 4th level spell? Its a complete mage-crutch joke
I wasn't sure if I saw where anyone tested the new LMC changes and whether they were stackable (as in, does 8% LMC studded leggings actually give 11% LMC). So, I went onto TC this morning, and made six suits. Essentially, I crafted two version (0 LMC, and 40 LMC) of leather, studded leather, and a chain/plate mix. I wanted to see if the bonus was stacked on top of imbued values, and....they were. This is good and a great relief.
I could share the math if someone really needed it, but suffice it to say that a 5 piece studded suit with 40 LMC actually gets up to 55 with the bonus, and a 5+ piece metal suit (plate/chain) with 40 LMC actually gets up to 45. I summoned earth elementals (base 50 mana cost) to run the tests. Unfortunately, I couldn't actually make 8% LMC pieces, as I don't know how to get essence on TC (w/o going to the SA). However, a 7% LMC studded piece did act as 10% LMC, so I am making assumptions that 8 = 11 (or, in the case of metal, 8 = 9).
I'm not crazy about the LMC bonus being in the background, but at least it's there and it works. I have no doubts I'll be ignoring the refinement system for a while. I still haven't tested the stamina loss, and this "low health = extra stamina loss" sounds worrisome, but at least the system is a bonus to non-medable armor. I'm glad the dev team finally took on an armor re-vamp, but I just hope the LMC bonus and stamina loss reduction are enough to make a plate/chain suit viable for a sampire (along with the Tough human racial ability).
I could share the math if someone really needed it, but suffice it to say that a 5 piece studded suit with 40 LMC actually gets up to 55 with the bonus, and a 5+ piece metal suit (plate/chain) with 40 LMC actually gets up to 45. I summoned earth elementals (base 50 mana cost) to run the tests. Unfortunately, I couldn't actually make 8% LMC pieces, as I don't know how to get essence on TC (w/o going to the SA). However, a 7% LMC studded piece did act as 10% LMC, so I am making assumptions that 8 = 11 (or, in the case of metal, 8 = 9).
I'm not crazy about the LMC bonus being in the background, but at least it's there and it works. I have no doubts I'll be ignoring the refinement system for a while. I still haven't tested the stamina loss, and this "low health = extra stamina loss" sounds worrisome, but at least the system is a bonus to non-medable armor. I'm glad the dev team finally took on an armor re-vamp, but I just hope the LMC bonus and stamina loss reduction are enough to make a plate/chain suit viable for a sampire (along with the Tough human racial ability).
I tested as well and can confirm the lmc works. I haven't tested the stam reduction. Currently i think you lose more stam the lower in health you are as well pre pub, so i don't think that is much of a change really. But i am curious to see if there is a difference.
with the stam leech change i think plate armor will be a big deal on a sampire for sure
Question to anyone that might know Is dragon armor reforgeable? And does mana cost round up or down or both? Just wondering, if you had a special thatw as going to take 10.4 mana, does it take 10 mana or 11 mana? i'll prolly test on tc tonight of no one knows.
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I was too tired last night to stay on test too long but I tested plate for a few minutes in Destard. The stam protection is VERY nice. I was at less then half half health before I had any noticable stam loss. I didnt let myself get to super low health though so would have to test that since people were saying stam loss was much higher then. But if you keep your health up you basically dont lose stamina. Oh and I should also note that I was just in a basic all 70s plate suit, nothing else on it and no weapon. So there was nothing else like stam regen or stam leech that would be effecting my results. I will have to test studded/boned next since that is what I am thinking of wearing on my abc archer
Well actually apparently I did have focus on that char and I think focus does give small amount of stamina regen right? But I took that off and retested my plate armor and the results were the same. I am going to go make myself a set of studded/bone armor to test now.
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You think Curse is overpowered... ? lol. What ELSE do you think is overpowered? Is Magic Arrow overpowered? How about clumsy? Magical Trap?
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Ninja was being abused? Well luckily someone called the Ninja Abuse Police. Ninja, might have been designed to work well with stealthers, but NOTHING in this game was designed to be LIMITED to any one template. Focus was originally made for dexxers and Chivalry users, and was later adapted into Mysticism. Saying that Ninja is being abused is like saying that Focus is being abused by Mystic users. No, No, That skill was originally meant for Chivalry Users. Sorry Mystics. F**k Off. That's the wonderful thing about UO, you can combine gear and templates and use your- ready for it?- *CREATIVITY* to design whatever cool and unique templates that you can think of and make work. This is what keeps UO from being a stupid game with class roles and specialization tree's. If only stealthers are supposed to have Ninja, why don't we just make the game levels 1-50, where if you choose to start as one class, you can never adapt the skills of another??
And P.S. Just because they're impossible for *You* to kill, does not mean they are in fact impossible...
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For my tests, I had quite a few "expected" mana cost calculations come out with 0.5 fractions (i.e. 22.5 mana cost). To make my math easier, I started with 100 mana. After casting I noticed that the mana cost rounded up to an even 23, as I dropped from 100 to 77 mana.
42.5 mana cost brought me from 100 to 57.
47.5 mana cost brought me from 100 to 52.
etc. etc.
However, I'd be interested to know what < .5 would round to. (i.e. 22.3)
Curse is overpowered as there isn't a effective counter for it. The best you can do it toss resist on your temp to reduce the effect but nothing can counter it. Yes you can eat a apple but it gets reapplied. You can cast a chiv spell, if you fit the skills into a cramped temp, but it just gets reapplied. in the case of mage vs mage it's a equal trade off as both players can cast it thus negating the effect but there is nothing a dexxer can do that causes such stat loss to the other player.
Curse is touchy, because it really is necessary for a mage, as damage spells don't do enough without curse. Adding a timer to curse wouldn't work really, as the first curse people would just apple it, and then the mage would have to wait for the timer, and then it gets reapplied and appled. constant cycle. I agree Curse is strong, but the resist dropping aspect is a neccesity. If they were to do anything with it, it should just be duration and how much stat it drops.
what about the orc chieftain orc helmet, in which category of armor does it fall? Its non-meddable but what protection for stamina and inherent mana does it provide ?
I wrote up some stuff about the armor refinement process and posted it here in the Siege forum ( http://stratics.com/community/threads/updated-publish-on-test.295113/#post-2243426 ) if you're still kind of puzzled about how it works. I will probably modify it as I think of stuff I overlooked.
Ok tested in both regular leather and in studded/bone armor now. Like I suspected bone/studded isn;t as good as plate I was taking stamina damage quicker then I did in plate. However there is still a noticable upgrade from regular leather to studded. I did let myself get really low in both plate and studded and stamina loss does get heavy then. But that was at very low lhealth levels. Oh and I should also note that I am a human. With studded I didn;t seem to take stamina damage until I went under 70-75 hit points, these numbers may not be exact though. I was able to take more damage in plate before I took stamina damage and then in regular leather it was like it is now. But anyway from what I have tested I like the stamina changes to armor.
Computer issues have unfortunately prevented me from testing recently, I have done my best to read all these posts, but it is possible I missed the information I was looking for currently. My main question at the moment is, how will the Curse spell work with the new refinement resist bonuses?
On the subject of the refinement bonuses in general I am currently skeptical, as I read these posts, and contemplate the changes personally (Thank you Gheed and Tina for your work.), I am seemingly in the same camp as Cetric, and others... While the refinement bonuses are "interesting" I find myself currently not enthusiastic enough about the changes to warrant "rolling the dice" on the random potential bonuses given by this new, arguably complex system. I'm not saying the refinement system is so terribly complex that it is impossible to discern how the system functions, but as a player (with OCD ) in a game like UO, which already has a complex crafting system, adding this new random (Ugh!) refinement system on top seems excessive to say the least. I personally will not be lighting a torch or inciting a riot if the developers decide to continue with the proposed refinement system, but I already feel exhausted just thinking about it...
On the subject of Curse I feel there could definately be some changes made that I believe are fair compromises. Curse should definately not last two mintues against 120 resist and a more reasonable scaled duration is needed, I also don't think it is necessary that Curse lowers all stats (effecting things like bandage time) in addition to altering resist caps. I primarily play mages and will likely continue to do so for as long as I play UO, but when I ask myself why Curse needs to do so many things in one spell it is difficult to rationally answer. Mages still have Clumsy, Feeblemind, and Weaken for altering stats (most mages are already utilizing these spells anyway in skilled caster combat), so I would propose that Curse, which is already heavily utilized for boosting magic damage (Logrus' posts are very informative) should not also continue to reduce stats . However I do agree with Spoony's simple request for Curse to be able to be recasted and "refresh" the duration of the debuff, and could see it being easily implemented with the points I believe are fair compromises.
- Just day dreaming past this point -
I would also have love(d) to have seen a weapon special move receive a curse type ability, so as to reduce the monopoly on this unique effect, and give dexxers a similar tool for this powerful spell. My rough idea would be something along the lines of:
"Weapon special X" - could be added/modified on any under utilized move, or tied to using a twohanded weapon like you just recently used in this patch (which is indeed a pretty neat idea
), it would reduce all resists by 5 for 5 seconds including physical resist, giving melee players a unique, but still appropriate bonus ( values to be fairly determined by you math experts), it would not stack with curse to further reduce elemental resists.
Thanks everyone for all your hard work, I'm still trying to keep up with the changes even if I can't test them myself at the moment.
On the subject of the refinement bonuses in general I am currently skeptical, as I read these posts, and contemplate the changes personally (Thank you Gheed and Tina for your work.), I am seemingly in the same camp as Cetric, and others... While the refinement bonuses are "interesting" I find myself currently not enthusiastic enough about the changes to warrant "rolling the dice" on the random potential bonuses given by this new, arguably complex system. I'm not saying the refinement system is so terribly complex that it is impossible to discern how the system functions, but as a player (with OCD
) in a game like UO, which already has a complex crafting system, adding this new random (Ugh!) refinement system on top seems excessive to say the least. I personally will not be lighting a torch or inciting a riot if the developers decide to continue with the proposed refinement system, but I already feel exhausted just thinking about it...On the subject of Curse I feel there could definately be some changes made that I believe are fair compromises. Curse should definately not last two mintues against 120 resist and a more reasonable scaled duration is needed, I also don't think it is necessary that Curse lowers all stats (effecting things like bandage time) in addition to altering resist caps. I primarily play mages and will likely continue to do so for as long as I play UO, but when I ask myself why Curse needs to do so many things in one spell it is difficult to rationally answer. Mages still have Clumsy, Feeblemind, and Weaken for altering stats (most mages are already utilizing these spells anyway in skilled caster combat), so I would propose that Curse, which is already heavily utilized for boosting magic damage (Logrus' posts are very informative) should not also continue to reduce stats . However I do agree with Spoony's simple request for Curse to be able to be recasted and "refresh" the duration of the debuff, and could see it being easily implemented with the points I believe are fair compromises.
- Just day dreaming past this point -
I would also have love(d) to have seen a weapon special move receive a curse type ability, so as to reduce the monopoly on this unique effect, and give dexxers a similar tool for this powerful spell. My rough idea would be something along the lines of:
"Weapon special X" - could be added/modified on any under utilized move, or tied to using a twohanded weapon like you just recently used in this patch (which is indeed a pretty neat idea
), it would reduce all resists by 5 for 5 seconds including physical resist, giving melee players a unique, but still appropriate bonus ( values to be fairly determined by you math experts), it would not stack with curse to further reduce elemental resists.Thanks everyone for all your hard work, I'm still trying to keep up with the changes even if I can't test them myself at the moment.
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If it's a reasonably FAST two-hander AND it has really desirable specials AND it's only PVP you're talking about AND you specifically run a template with no parry or bushido THEN you might use one I guess. But all the war hammers and halberds and bardiches and lances and so forth are garbage and will remain garbage. We don't need them to do an extra whole 2 base damage, we need them to swing more than once an hour. Dragon armor will remain garbage. People have begged them to their faces to add resists to it for a month now, but it's like they can't see us.
Plus the whole publish just adds a whole lot of "X unless Y then Z" garbage that there's no call for. Two-handers didn't have some epic thing going for them that demanded they eat a devastating nerf when Balanced. Dexer arties with Mage Armor didn't need to be nerfed, but they're afraid some mage is going to burn 700 intensity getting an extra 15 LMC, and that's just such a terrifying prospect that hey screw everyone with a Heart of the Lion or whatever. It's just pointless. It's like they've never played the game.
But seriously, what bugs me is, do you realize how long it's going to take to ACTUALLY get anything fixed around here, now that these guys have let us know they're only here to cram Refinements down our throat?
We're going to have to wait YEARS until it's probably a different set of developers, then we'll have to bug them incessantly, and listen to them tell us how another overhaul is "on the radar" for a couple more years, and then pray that when the time comes they actually want to fix things this time and not just shove a bunch of PVP nerfs and some mammoth boondoggle of an idea down our necks.
If we're lucky, you'll be able to run around in dragonscale swinging a halberd or whatever (without looking like an idiot newb and getting killed) sometime before 20 year Veteran Rewards come out, but I wouldn't count on it.
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I do agree some twohanders still wonlt be used *well I would use a halberd in pvm * I think they need to consider either making those weapons just a little faster or increasing the damage some more. Also you should still be able to parry/evade with a twohanded weapon with balanced. Also yeah it is rather annoying that resists still haven;t been balanced like I have said before that should have been the first thing done. As for refinements we will see. I do really hope they scrap the system for now it needs way to much work and it does feel half finished as it is. But even if it does go in I imagine most will just ignore it :/
But really from what I have read and actually tested other then the above issues and maybe a few other tweaks I am actually quite happy with this publish. Sure not all twohanded weapons will be useful but there is more choice, same with armor
* I think they need to consider either making those weapons just a little faster or increasing the damage some more. Also you should still be able to parry/evade with a twohanded weapon with balanced. Also yeah it is rather annoying that resists still haven;t been balanced like I have said before that should have been the first thing done. As for refinements we will see. I do really hope they scrap the system for now it needs way to much work and it does feel half finished as it is. But even if it does go in I imagine most will just ignore it :/But really from what I have read and actually tested other then the above issues and maybe a few other tweaks I am actually quite happy with this publish. Sure not all twohanded weapons will be useful but there is more choice, same with armor
The War hammer is actually a really solid weapon but not the best in its category, so won't argue there, but the lance and bardiche are two of the best dismount weapons in the game because one can be toggled while on mount, and the other has para-dismount lol, and the halberd has a hidden amazing usage with a certain template because of its damage output and special. While all slow, they have their uses at least. I use and have used the hell out of a bardiche, a balanced one is just icing on the cake.
There is a LOT to like about this publish. While i don't fully agree with refinements either, the rest has a lot to offer and more. There really isn't much more you can do to two-handed weapons without making something game changing/breaking about them such as two-tile and such. two-tile range would be overpwoered as hell if balance stayed on them as an option. What they did was sensible and works, they just need to take some of the parry chance into account.
And yes, i am looking at most of this from a pvp perspective. two handed weapons don't need balance in pvm, so they now have 600 intensity lol. What nerf? lol. There is tons of good in pvm in regards to these weap changes, its not this publishes job to switch sampires from using the "best armor ignore weapon-DPS weapon". I can GUARANTEE that you will see a lot of long spears in pvm. Speaking of pvm and weaps... isn't the hally like... the BEST whirlwind weapon at present? ah maybe that belongs to the double-axe still...
I agree with so many things you've said in past versions of this thread, but instead of being constructive you are just ranting and raving about nitpick stuff.
Take this for instance: a temp that runs low tact and little to no anatomy would have to run a leafblade with a bunch of di to have 35point ai's or a hatchet that is two handed. now you could run a new hatchet or spear that is balanced, and not require all that di. There is one function of base damage being underrated. Another is when you utilize max damage. Ah who am i kidding, why should i try to explain this, you just come off as to angry about the whole thing anyways.
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