To stay grouped or not to stay grouped??

[Bman]

So there's been 3 of us going in and doing Medusa recently as a group. We usually stay grouped throughout the entire fight. Sometimes we get no drops and we have Been lucky enough to get 3 drops in one run as group. Most of the time though we only get one drop as a group. So the question has come up on whether it would be better to drop group right before she dies or to continue as a group.

Also whoever gets the drop doesn't matter.. It's me and my 2 boys that are playing.. So dad gets all the drops anyways.

 

[Tjalle]

It's me and my 2 boys that are playing.. So dad gets all the drops anyways.

Nice setup heh.

As for your question, kinda wondering the same myself...

 

[Logrus]

In the case of the SA Bosses, for the main drops everyone gets a separate roll as long as they get in the top attackers list. So the more people the more chances at drops. Doesn't matter if you are grouped or not. Also there's a points system in place so the longer you go without drops the more likely you are to get a drop (That points pool is shared between the major SA bosses, so you could build up on an easy boss and hope you don't get a drop then move to the boss you really want the drops from when your point pool is higher).

For generated loot:
One thing that devs can confirm is whether the loot is generated for the whole corpse and then split, or split and then generated. The importance being that if the luck is factored immediately then I believe it takes luck from randomly from one of the top attackers to determine the drop for the whole corpse. If it were split first then generated it may be taking the luck roll from each attacker to generate their loot portion.

I never messed with or investigated the luck portion so I cant really add definitive insight tot hat.

 

[Tazar]

In the case of the SA Bosses, for the main drops everyone gets a separate roll as long as they get in the top attackers list. So the more people the more chances at drops. Doesn't matter if you are grouped or not. Also there's a points system in place so the longer you go without drops the more likely you are to get a drop (That points pool is shared between the major SA bosses, so you could build up on an easy boss and hope you don't get a drop then move to the boss you really want the drops from when your point pool is higher).

For generated loot:
One thing that devs can confirm is whether the loot is generated for the whole corpse and then split, or split and then generated. The importance being that if the luck is factored immediately then I believe it takes luck from randomly from one of the top attackers to determine the drop for the whole corpse. If it were split first then generated it may be taking the luck roll from each attacker to generate their loot portion.

I never messed with or investigated the luck portion so I cant really add definitive insight tot hat.

By "SA Bosses" are we talking Navrey, Stygian, Medusa, Niprolem, Slasher? Or also the mini-champ bosses in the abyss?

 

[Logrus]

Not the mini's or Navrey, just the encounter ones ( Medusa,Styg, Lich, Slasher)

 

[Tropik]

Not the mini's or Navrey, just the encounter ones ( Medusa,Styg, Lich, Slasher)

So what items count as a drop then. Is the Night Eyes from Narvey considered a drop? Is the Stone Dragons Tooth or Petrified Snake or Ironwood Composite Bow considered a drop OR is a drop just the major expensive items like the Tangle, Slither, Lavelier, etc. It is important to know if the items that drop almost every time are counted as a drop.

 

[Logrus]

From my understanding of that post.
Looks like a creature gives a range of items depending on how difficult it is. So an orc would probably give a 1, and a wind elemental probably something along the lines of 4 or 5 items.
When each of those items is generated it takes a random player out of the top attacker list and generates that item according to the luck of that player.
So basically each item generated is done so with different luck depending on which player's luck generated that piece.

I guess the important factor after that is to find out if each player generates their own loot pile if the group is split before the kill, or if that loot is generated then randomly split between the piles. In which case one player with high luck may have generated the items present in other loot piles as well.

 

[Thunderz]

So what items count as a drop then. Is the Night Eyes from Narvey considered a drop? Is the Stone Dragons Tooth or Petrified Snake or Ironwood Composite Bow considered a drop OR is a drop just the major expensive items like the Tangle, Slither, Lavelier, etc. It is important to know if the items that drop almost every time are counted as a drop.

Id take it that a "drop" means a "drop"!!!! If it drops into your backpack then its a drop...

Thunderz

 

[Logrus]

So what items count as a drop then. Is the Night Eyes from Narvey considered a drop? Is the Stone Dragons Tooth or Petrified Snake or Ironwood Composite Bow considered a drop OR is a drop just the major expensive items like the Tangle, Slither, Lavelier, etc. It is important to know if the items that drop almost every time are counted as a drop.

The Really low drop chance items aren't on the point system. So the Night Eyes/Tangle/Slither/Lavelier or anything limited to mini bosses aren't on the points systems.

 

[Thunderz]

From my understanding of that post.
Looks like a creature gives a range of items depending on how difficult it is. So an orc would probably give a 1, and a wind elemental probably something along the lines of 4 or 5 items.
When each of those items is generated it takes a random player out of the top attacker list and generates that item according to the luck of that player.
So basically each item generated is done so with different luck depending on which player's luck generated that piece.

I guess the important factor after that is to find out if each player generates their own loot pile if the group is split before the kill, or if that loot is generated then randomly split between the piles. In which case one player with high luck may have generated the items present in other loot piles as well.

Id have to say yes, as iv done andros 1000s times just killing the wisp and when there is someone else there aswell and they hit the wisp with a luck suit on my loot is way better than when its just me killing the wisp. So its definatly generated after the luck has been taken into account before the corpse is split.

Back to the OP, its better to stay in party the whole time or drop at the start as from what i understand, when you drop party everyone has to start there numbers from 0 again meaning everyone gets less numbers if you drop at the end. This has been the same since ML came out and before the archer nerf as we would drop party at the end but because my archer was hitting for 350+ per second id be the only person with looting rights as no one else would make enough dmg to get on the table.

Thunderz

 

[Obsidian]

Not the mini's or Navrey, just the encounter ones ( Medusa,Styg, Lich, Slasher)

You grouped a champ spawn boss in this list. Is that correct? What about Abyssal infernal? Is there any seperate point system for Navrey or the mini-champ bosses?

 

[Bman]

I appreciate all the feedback. We started hitting medusa pretty hard right before Xmas and through their Xmas vacation, the following is the results of 78 medusa runs being partied the entire time. So 78 runs with the possibility of three drops each run - here's what we got :

30 daggers
22 bows
17 staffs
2 (3.0 scrolls)
1 floor tile
1 slither - Yay
0 medusa statues

Total of 73 drops

Beginning this week we will do some more runs but drop right at the end - we tried this tonight on one run and we each received a dagger - 3 items in one run.... Maybe just dumb luck... I will track it and try to keep everyone updated on progress.

 

[Obsidian]

The Really low drop chance items aren't on the point system. So the Night Eyes/Tangle/Slither/Lavelier or anything limited to mini bosses aren't on the points systems.

Why not? This is disappointing.

 

[Flutter]

The Really low drop chance items aren't on the point system. So the Night Eyes/Tangle/Slither/Lavelier or anything limited to mini bosses aren't on the points systems.

Then what is? Shouldn't it all be part of the point system? Eventually if someone does Medusa enough times they should get a slither no? Why would you make it so someone could do a boss 1000 times and not get one? I mean I'd understand if the point requirement was just very high... but not at all? Logrus, think like a player.

 

[Logrus]

I'm just saying how things were. I don't work there any more to say what should be or what shouldn't.

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

What an interesting post! Gives lots to think about and test. Very inspireing for boss hunting and armour making.

 

[Eärendil]

Yes! Love threads like this where people like me can learn...

 

[swroberts]

*Standing Ovation*....He went out and literally made new UO Players.....Why can't the rest of you people do that...

 

[Warpig Inc]

Really? Got outside in the sun and meet RL people? Didn't know EA wanted us to breed to increase the population of UO.

 

[weins201]

The Really low drop chance items aren't on the point system. So the Night Eyes/Tangle/Slither/Lavelier or anything limited to mini bosses aren't on the points systems.

So what is then, if those items arnt on the point system what are you talking about as a drop? And how are they figured in as loot? That is the problem here. There is NO way of knowing whats drops, when, rarity, triggers luck factor on THOSE items. Tangle, Slither, Night Eys etc all the other stuff I am sorry to say is just crap. They drop so often and don't have any real use. Stone Dragons tooth, spider carapace - these are just turned in for points now.

Ty for trying to answer.

 

[Lorddog]

i was under the impression that luck is divided evenly among group. so if you had 3 guys at luck (2100,0,0) then each luck cast = 700. whereas if you drop party then you have luck 2100,0,0.

 

[CovenantX]

30 daggers
22 bows
17 staffs
2 (3.0 scrolls)
1 floor tile
1 slither - Yay
0 medusa statues

Total of 73 drops

Beginning this week we will do some more runs but drop right at the end - we tried this tonight on one run and we each received a dagger - 3 items in one run.... Maybe just dumb luck... I will track it and try to keep everyone updated on progress.

Don't do it too much, people might accuse you of duping .

Just a side note, you can't get more than one 'rare' drop per run (this includes: Slither, Venom, Floor tile, & Statue) everything else you can get one for each person with looting rights per kill. lots of turn-in points for them minors 5k/per.

 

[Obsidian]

I'm just saying how things were. I don't work there any more to say what should be or what shouldn't.

Thank you, Logrus for being forthright and the information. My "disappointed" statement had nothing to do with you but my feelings on the drop system. Now we are better armed to ask for an adjustment or a complimentary system to turn in minor arties for a major artie of choice. After all, how many Medusa bows and daggers does one need (see Bman's numbers above)?

 

[SlobberKnocker]

did 4 travesty's and 4 medusas yesterday. 2 stone dragon teeth was the result. dropped party every run.

im probably well past 100 medusas since her inception and never recevied a floor tile, statue or slither.

i would welcome some sort of point system moving forward at these boss events. at least it could be rigged the same way doom drops are.

 

[Picus at the office]

This thread both rocks for information and sucks because it's a former team member who dropped off the team a good while ago whom has provided more information about any of the current damage forms and drops than I have seen in the last 5 years or more.

Logrus, again thank you for all of your recent postings. I really think that you have added some much needed umpf to the game for myself personally and have given me the motivation to make a few new chars when I really had ran out of steam for playing the game. I can only hope you continue to help us all here and when it comes time for a new lead producer I can only hope you get a crack at the spot(just don't forget us).

Why can't the other people do the same as this guy?

 

[Merus]

In the case of the SA Bosses, for the main drops everyone gets a separate roll as long as they get in the top attackers list. So the more people the more chances at drops. Doesn't matter if you are grouped or not. Also there's a points system in place so the longer you go without drops the more likely you are to get a drop (That points pool is shared between the major SA bosses, so you could build up on an easy boss and hope you don't get a drop then move to the boss you really want the drops from when your point pool is higher).

For generated loot:
One thing that devs can confirm is whether the loot is generated for the whole corpse and then split, or split and then generated. The importance being that if the luck is factored immediately then I believe it takes luck from randomly from one of the top attackers to determine the drop for the whole corpse. If it were split first then generated it may be taking the luck roll from each attacker to generate their loot portion.

I never messed with or investigated the luck portion so I cant really add definitive insight tot hat.

What the assumption that you get more "credit" toward the drop pool by doing more damage to an individual mob... For instance... 4 players all get looting rights on the corpse but 1 player does substantially more damage than the others... Since they all got looting rights do they all build the same credit toward a drop?

 

[Flutter]

I'm just saying how things were. I don't work there any more to say what should be or what shouldn't.

Sorry. Someone else wasn't thinking like a player then.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Thank you as always Logrus.

One problem that has always struck me with the game is the degree to which there's so many systems, made independently of each other, never intended to work together, yet with similar purposes and results. The various kinds of drops are one example.

Another problem that has always struck me with the game is the degree to which attempting to standardize the systems seem to either create more problems, or engenders bad feelings in the playerbase who are used to it working a certain way, or both.

-Galen's player

 

[Logrus]

A segue on the conversation:
A guaranteed drop (points system or instant drop) gives everyone the items, but since they are reliably farmable they'll become common place pretty quickly and the value goes down and the content gets old quickly.

A rare drop (straight drop chance roll per instance) items remain rare, and valuable, and the content remains used.

Since most loot never leaves the game naturally (breakage or loss), and even imbued items can have durability up to 255/255, making the best items easier to get, without introducing a way for them to leave the game just leads to calls for more and better items as those become common place.

 

[Quickblade]

Problem about all drop in UO is the lack of information in regard to the % drop chance. In almost every other MMo Game you can consult a site where all drops have their % chance to drop information avalaible for everyone, why not for UO. Why so many hidden info in this game, why? I mean it wouldnt be hard to confirm us that Tangle has 1% drop chance or slither has 0,5% chance to drop...

 

[Obsidian]

A segue on the conversation:
A guaranteed drop (points system or instant drop) gives everyone the items, but since they are reliably farmable they'll become common place pretty quickly and the value goes down and the content gets old quickly.

A rare drop (straight drop chance roll per instance) items remain rare, and valuable, and the content remains used.

Since most loot never leaves the game naturally (breakage or loss), and even imbued items can have durability up to 255/255, making the best items easier to get, without introducing a way for them to leave the game just leads to calls for more and better items as those become common place.

This is an interesting element of game design. I personally disagree with the concept because in UO there is so much content in total. Whether I do 70 Medusas or do 10 of 7 different Peerless, I am still engaging in online play and am being an active part of the community. For me (and I suspect many), I started playing UO in my early 20s. Now, 15 yrs later, I am a young professional in my late 30s (almost 40) with a family. My play time is limited. I would much prefer the certainty of a particular drop which allows me to do more of different things than to endlessly chain the same foe. In the end, that just leads me to chain the opportunity that nets the most gold quickest so I can buy the item. It actually inhibits me from engaging the multitude of monsters and systems in UO and just doing what I know pays the best. My 2 cents to consider on drop systems.

 

[G.v.P]

did 4 travesty's and 4 medusas yesterday. 2 stone dragon teeth was the result. dropped party every run.

im probably well past 100 medusas since her inception and never recevied a floor tile, statue or slither.

i would welcome some sort of point system moving forward at these boss events. at least it could be rigged the same way doom drops are.

I felt that way after doing a few Stygian with Shelra. No one ever sells the Fey slayer book so we paired up to try and get one, but sometimes neither one of us get a drop and--tooth or not--and that gets annoying. Medusa is at least a pretty easy run. I'll have to look at it again now that keys last a week.

 

[Bman]

Just an update.. We have done another 10 runs this past week.. Dropping party right before she dies and have picked up 14 drops in those 10 runs. 2 runs no drop for the 3 of us, 1 run all 3 got a drop, and 4 runs we received 2 drops.

8 - daggers
4 - bows
2 - staffs

Seems in this short trial we have gotten more drops than staying grouped.. We will continue to collect data..

 

[Flutter]

A segue on the conversation:
A guaranteed drop (points system or instant drop) gives everyone the items, but since they are reliably farmable they'll become common place pretty quickly and the value goes down and the content gets old quickly.

A rare drop (straight drop chance roll per instance) items remain rare, and valuable, and the content remains used.

Not really. To do something repeatedly without getting a "rare" drop and to go in knowing you have the same chance at failure gets old just as quickly.

 

[MalagAste]

Not really. To do something repeatedly without getting a "rare" drop and to go in knowing you have the same chance at failure gets old just as quickly.

I have to agree..... to do something again and again and again without reward only makes one HATEFUL of the event and eventually makes you just not care to waste your time at it. Rather like Doom.

I went to Doom 100's of times when it first came out..... I did run after run after run never got a single drop in over a year and half.... got to where I HATED going and avoided it like the plague.... especially after watching certain members get drops 2 and 3 times in a ROW..... Back to back good drops while I still got nothing....

After awhile the mere mention of doing a Doom run made my blood boil.... After the "change" to how Doom drops work allowing me to "build up" a chance to get a drop until I'm Guaranteed one has been FAR better.... now I actually don't mind doing Doom. I know eventually I WILL be rewarded.

But to keep doing something without reward only breeds discontent.

And eventually well..... we don't do it anymore.

Rather like Despise..... I gave that a good test.... after doing over 30 runs and never getting a single drop I finally said you know what..... other people can waste their precious time with this crap.... I'm done.... I haven't been back there are I honestly doubt I'll ever return there. I can't see spending the hours working up a pet to go down there for a 10 min fight and come away with absolutely NOTHING. Not worth the time.

At least when I do Exodus not only gathering the keys gets me good things I enjoy .... such as the ML ingredients, the SA ingredients and Relic frag worthy items..... or sometimes if I'm REALLY lucky I get a clean item that is worth keeping...... But then I've actually managed to get things from Exodus..... so therefore I actually ENJOY spending the time doing it.

There is a reward for my hard work.


Oh and Logrus.... I'll say this once again because I know I'm right.... There is "Rare" ..... which is fine..... and then there is "Stupid Rare" Like some of the fish.... Even using bait and wearing the stupid fishing suit can't catch some of the fish..... "Stupid Rare" is NOT fun..... see above about discontent.

 

[Logrus]

I think in some of the cases, there's a challenge with balancing difficulty/time investment with reward. As in the case with some of the rare drops, doing an encounter 70 times and not getting a drop, sucks and frustrating and off putting. What there probably needs to be is a points/chance build up, to go along with the rare drop chance. That way there will be some eventual reward, but there's still something reducing an item flood.

I do like the dropping of special ingredients, and think something like that where players could use something that drops more often but still not over abundantly available, to craft more some artifactish items or maybe even craft existing artifact drops from the same source as the ingredients. So they'd not only get the chance for it to drop, but eventually they'd be able to craft their own out of repeated encounters.

Just thoughts, not thought out.

 

[Eärendil]

There is "Rare" ..... which is fine..... and then there is "Stupid Rare" Like some of the fish.... Even using bait and wearing the stupid fishing suit can't catch some of the fish..... "Stupid Rare" is NOT fun..... see above about discontent.

I agree!