On the topic of Felucca and PvP....

[popps]

I think you are drastically, drastically underrating the incredible difficulty that would be involved in doing this in a balanced and unexploitable way. That's even if we accept the premise that "fair" fights are in the best interest of Felucca in the first place.

Remember, this game does not have discrete "levels" that can be easily compared. The system you describe would need to decide, for example, whether having 20 more points of parry skill is better or worse than having one more point of FCR. That's the sort of question that doesn't even begin to become answerable until you take templates into account, and the system would need to answer dozens and dozens of such questions constantly and in a fair way.

Consider also that doing it even slightly incorrectly, making it even a little exploitable or unbalanced, would actively ruin PVP and damage the game.

The difficulty relates to the fact that, as I see it, way too many variables have been added to the game and with the exponential increase of variables, the balancing of templates and combat has become a nightmare, perhaps I'd even go as far as impossible.

PvP is too complicated, if really more players are wanted to participate into PvP then the player vs. player combat dynamics should be made easier so that more players would get interested in them.

As of now, only very motivated players can become really competitive in PvP by understanding all of the dynamics and whatever relates to competitive PvP. Perhaps, just perhaps, if PvP was not so complicated and time consuming to get competitive at there would be far more players enjoying it and populating the PvP areas.......

Just a thought......

 

[popps]

There are the unfortunate ones out there that do that. There are those that do that in ever portion of the game though, no one has an aswer for it. Some people are just D bags

Then I wonder, since on most shards by listening to General Chat those who "misbehave PvP" sooner or later are known, why on earth the PvP comunity does not outcast these individuals by hunting them all over the Felucca ruleset places ?

I mean, if such behaviour drives players away from the Felucca ruleset areas, then why on earth the players who contribute to the desertification of the Felucca ruleset areas are befriended and not instead outcasted ?

It is not possible to have the cake and eat it too.

If more players are to be wanted into Felucca ruleset areas then the PvP community should make its best efforts to make sure that all PvPers learn to behave when PvPing and to respect all other players.

Unfortunately, I just hear a lot of talks about rotten apples but hardly anything I see much done from the PvP Community to make sure that these rotten apples stop doing harm to PvP in the game.

 

[Lythos-]

The difficulty relates to the fact that, as I see it, way too many variables have been added to the game and with the exponential increase of variables, the balancing of templates and combat has become a nightmare, perhaps I'd even go as far as impossible.

PvP is too complicated, if really more players are wanted to participate into PvP then the player vs. player combat dynamics should be made easier so that more players would get interested in them.

As of now, only very motivated players can become really competitive in PvP by understanding all of the dynamics and whatever relates to competitive PvP. Perhaps, just perhaps, if PvP was not so complicated and time consuming to get competitive at there would be far more players enjoying it and populating the PvP areas....

PvP is less complicated than pvm. More expensive by FAR but less complicated. That's the whole joy of UO, you can be ANYTHING you want to be especially with imbuing and the unreal jewels spawning in revamped dungeons. Every template has a weakness and every player has a weakness.

Then I wonder, since on most shards by listening to General Chat those who "misbehave PvP" sooner or later are known, why on earth the PvP comunity does not outcast these individuals by hunting them all over the Felucca ruleset places ?

I mean, if such behaviour drives players away from the Felucca ruleset areas, then why on earth the players who contribute to the desertification of the Felucca ruleset areas are befriended and not instead outcasted ?

It is not possible to have the cake and eat it too.

If more players are to be wanted into Felucca ruleset areas then the PvP community should make its best efforts to make sure that all PvPers learn to behave when PvPing and to respect all other players.

Unfortunately, I just hear a lot of talks about rotten apples but hardly anything I see much done from the PvP Community to make sure that these rotten apples stop doing harm to PvP in the game.

General chat by far is the absolute worst thing ever established in UO. But mainly, it's not our job to police other players and we should NOT be held accountable for the actions of said few rotten apples just like the Tram facet shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of a few. Yes i agree they are annoying but they do not speak for the whole facet. In fact, most of the people that do talk in chat are generally mediocre players trying to make a name for themselves.

 

[Sauteed Onion]

General chat by far is the absolute worst thing ever established in UO. But mainly, it's not our job to police other players and we should NOT be held accountable for the actions of said few rotten apples just like the Tram facet shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of a few. Yes i agree they are annoying but they do not speak for the whole facet. In fact, most of the people that do talk in chat are generally mediocre players trying to make a name for themselves.

General chat.. oh yes. I remember having stayed logged off for maybe a year and a half, I had logged in here and there and found I just didn't have the time to invest in the game that I wanted to so I unsubbed. This was before the advent of general chat in the game. Anyhow the stars aligned and I got to stop working 13-14 hours a day 6 days a week, and I was finding pockes of 5 or 6 hours here and there.. so I resubbed to UO. I logged in and things were peaceful for the first 8 or 9 minutes; and my first goal was getting a prospector's tool. Though I despise the way luna looks; I usually buy my tool from that architect simply because he's like right by the bank. Anyhow, in roughly 30 minutes of looking, perhaps an hour at most. I managed to find a 15x18 by the ocean in Trammel. The very second I set that house down.. boom, I saw the blue text of another player in general chat. It wasn't friendly either. It was "*@#$ U!" Replace the 4 symbols with a 4 letter word starting with the first 4 letters of the next 4 words except for "of".. fornication under consent "of" king.. And there ya go. Granted that wasn't the only type of things I began seeing but it was still the first I saw. I wasn't even in General chat at that time I was in Help Channel. It was an adventure in and of itself to learn how to even chat in it, I was trying / : ' " [ \ | ] all kinds of stuff to get in general chat.. anyhow. When I sauntered into general chat, things I began to see were just nuts. People cussing at eachother trying to establish who's the more dominant pvper' to somebody trying to get a 120 magery scroll, some random guy selling people out for a champion spawn in Deciet, one of the people in Deciet talking trash on the guy who was ratting them out; some guy gating to some auction house in Luna; 2 or 3 random conversations about "Hey what skills should I have if I want to be a sampire" etc.

My first thought was NOOOOO they're WoW'ing this game; and I had a thought shortly after, why not just seperate the general chats of Fel and Tram. Like you leave for fel you get General Chat: Fel; you saunter into Trammel you get General Chat: Tram, General Chat: Illshenar, and General Chat: Tokuno. You can not join the other once you are in the other facets. People probably would hate that idea; but the big bad trash speakers hate being naggled for being loud and obnoxious and the nagglers hate being insulted for being nagglers and both of them hate everything etc; and everybody hates seeing people in a game calling somebody else in a game stupid idiot lolz unsub give me ur stuph noob lolz lawl back and forth for 23 and a half hours a day. Or my personal favorite which makes me fall out the chair laughing, somebody calling another person a "non-factor"; in a video game. Oh that's precious. I almost wish when it gets to that level of hilarity it just broadcasts itself in every channel, and the speaker of those types of lines gets a special trophy for their coolness. Plz.

Anyhow; point being yes, general chat is pretty awful, but having played several other games it is MUCH worse in Aion, Lineage II, World of Warcraft (which I think you can actually make and pw lock some channels in that game, still awful idea), Rifts even during the week before "launch" general chat was of the utmost foullest pit of unwashed mouths and fat finger insanity I've ever seen, and the absolute worst general chat I've seen ever was actually in a text and still picture game called Dreamworld for ye olde facebook. The guy that maintains that though just bans people straight away, and plays regularly. The problem though is that only 2 of the 4 servers I tend to get on tend to have this type of banter I talk about in this post; and I've made characters on a few others just to see what the "climate" is like there and there just is nothing being said at all. So at this point, after years of negligence and feigned ignorance, I don't believe there is a fix to general chat. If we were to separate it now between facets, people who have grown accustomed to it will be bothered; people will complain that there aren't enough people in these areas etc. So we get what we got. At some point though, I believe games will integrate semi usable voice chat into their interfaces and we'll be able to toggle between guild, market, pvp, world lfg chat etc.. but most likely not with UO. For shame meow.

 

[Cetric]

The difficulty relates to the fact that, as I see it, way too many variables have been added to the game and with the exponential increase of variables, the balancing of templates and combat has become a nightmare, perhaps I'd even go as far as impossible.

PvP is too complicated, if really more players are wanted to participate into PvP then the player vs. player combat dynamics should be made easier so that more players would get interested in them.

As of now, only very motivated players can become really competitive in PvP by understanding all of the dynamics and whatever relates to competitive PvP. Perhaps, just perhaps, if PvP was not so complicated and time consuming to get competitive at there would be far more players enjoying it and populating the PvP areas.......

Just a thought......

Pvp is a high learning curve because it is against people, things with no AI. pvm is easy because its all a numbers game, a matter of damage icnrease/sdi, hits per second. pvp takes tactics. No one said it was easy. When i first started pvping i died ALOT, but you know what? everytime you die you ask yourself, why did i die? What can i do to make that less often of an occurance? What did he do and what can i learn from it to be better at this?

 

[Cetric]

PvP is less complicated than pvm. More expensive by FAR but less complicated. That's the whole joy of UO, you can be ANYTHING you want to be especially with imbuing and the unreal jewels spawning in revamped dungeons. Every template has a weakness and every player has a weakness.




General chat by far is the absolute worst thing ever established in UO. But mainly, it's not our job to police other players and we should NOT be held accountable for the actions of said few rotten apples just like the Tram facet shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of a few. Yes i agree they are annoying but they do not speak for the whole facet. In fact, most of the people that do talk in chat are generally mediocre players trying to make a name for themselves.

Said very well. No one can control the actions of those "rotten apples", go play call of duty on xbox if you think general chat is bad, wait until a 12 year old calls you everything but handsome, hell, you'll even learn a few things about your momma you didn't know about. Trammel is full of these same ****** bags, they just don't voice themselves over competition like pvp brings out, they just scam you or screw you over, maybe grief you in a different way.

 

[Zosimus]

Split up the skill cap, so all can have both PvP skills and crafting skills.

Not trying to change the subject of the UO by focusing on GW2 but we have something very close to that. Each profession has their own skills but each character can have up to 2 crafting professions. Since UO is different it may be more complicated with skills but I think its doable.



Now when it comes to power scrolls which some others have brought up I have a different view of that situation. Yes Fellucia is risk vs reward. Now to me, and this is just my opinion of it so please do not take offence, raiding a spawn guild that is already focused on a mob of monsters at a spawn or champ even is not pvp in my book. Why do I say that. As being both a raider and a spawner I know both sides of the situation. The developers made it this way so what can be done about power scrolls. Spawning guilds need to work together and take tuurns as defenders and spawners to help defend the spawn against the raiders. I truly believe that was the intent of power scrolls being added to the game. UO was about the social aspect of the game. Issue was/is that it doesn't work that way. Spawns became more about shard control and RL $$$ to some.


PvPers want to have action and reasons to fight. Spawns truly get old. Reds want to enjoy that aspect of the game or they wouldn't be red. So what can be added to make PvP enjoyable for all? I noticed in another thread a poster talked about Order vs Chaos and how it should be on all facets. I agree with that. Not all players are forced to be in the old Order vs Chaos system and we don't know if it is implemented how it will be done. It's a postive move in my book for more players to have that option of OvsC.


Luring the sheep to the fodder just doesn't work. Players that don't want to go to Fellucia just wont go. Some players that do basically ninja in and out. Then you have your full time 100% hardcore Fellucia residents that thrive on the PK experience. How do we control the chaos of it all? Thats up to the players and how they act and based off of their actions. Pvpers have a strong voice in the game and should be heard. Adding more items to "lure" really doesn't fix it. Why be griefed when you can just farm gold in Trammel and buy it as most will view it. So in the end the same issue is still present.


There are pros and cons for both sides but I truly think PvP needs some love and Fellucia itself. It's not items though but a reason to participate in Fellucia is needed. I wish I knew myself or have this fabulous idea of what could be added. Like events where brit fel was being raided by an army of trolls and you can fight the trolls out of the city but have to leave the safe confines of the city to gain a daily gift by going to the source of the infestation of the trolls. This gift could be like a karma gift to certain virtues or gain an X amount of karma that can be tuned in at a statue of the city that can gain an item from the UO store. Lets use the Ultima Online™ Instant Pet Bond Potion as an example. Say it would cost 1 million karma point to get this item for free. Now each event you would participate may be 10 karma points. If the devs could add maybe certain items that may have a purpose to the game that they dont sell. Like 1 hour invulnerable potion. You cant be attacked or take damage from another player for that hour. It costs 200k in karma post. This could be used for speical dyes and such. Just ideas and probably not good ones but I am throwing some around.

 

[SixUnder]

I don't like to pvm, should i be able to get a slither from killing players?

Same mentality flipped around is it not?


PVP whether we like it or not, needs incentives. PVP has dwindled over time because of this, there haven't been major incentives since power scrolls, and sort of replicas, were introduced. Factions was good for a time but once everyone got the "outnumber them or don't fight mentality, or sticking ninja on every template for the sake of running away" because of stat loss, that smacked it pretty good.



Tram players come to fel on their sampires and cry all the time, learn to come with a group. do a primeval lich spawn while defending it from the small contingent of reds that raid you. It will be more satisfying than killing some monsters with poor AI, i can guarantee it. Die, res, try again, not only will it open your eyes to a different aspect of the game you play, you just might like it.

I have a sampire, i can understand why some people think dieing to players easily is upsetting when you can take a sampire and just stand there hitting the same button over and over for 5 minutes against any creature in the game without fear of dieing. Maybe you shouldn't play the game on easy mode all the time. Live a little, add some risk, enjoy the reward, and maybe, just maybe, you will find it more satisfying in the long run. Most players that pvp didn't become good over night. I've seen some big time trammies in my time turn into some very good pvpers

Outstanding post.
EA If you want a real thread and possible changes that are legit, start one mods, and people like myself, and Cet will give the truth about how to changes up to make things viable again.

 

[SixUnder]

PvP is less complicated than pvm. More expensive by FAR but less complicated.


Every template has a weakness and every player has a weakness.

First comment, i laughed so hard i almost fell out of my chair.
Second comment, if you have a weakness it is because you are not any good. Make the template and suit correctly.

 

[SixUnder]

Pvp is a high learning curve because it is against people, things with no AI. pvm is easy because its all a numbers game, a matter of damage icnrease/sdi, hits per second. pvp takes tactics. No one said it was easy. When i first started pvping i died ALOT, but you know what? everytime you die you ask yourself, why did i die? What can i do to make that less often of an occurance? What did he do and what can i learn from it to be better at this?

+1

 

[popps]

Luring the sheep to the fodder just doesn't work. Players that don't want to go to Fellucia just wont go. Some players that do basically ninja in and out. Then you have your full time 100% hardcore Fellucia residents that thrive on the PK experience. How do we control the chaos of it all? Thats up to the players and how they act and based off of their actions. Pvpers have a strong voice in the game and should be heard. Adding more items to "lure" really doesn't fix it. Why be griefed when you can just farm gold in Trammel and buy it as most will view it. So in the end the same issue is still present.

Thank you for explaining this better than me. I have been trying to say it for long that "baits" to get players into Felucca not only does not work, but it actually hurts the game since it gets players upset at PvP rather than liking it.

The efforts should be towards the direction of getting more players to actually "like" to PvP, enjoy it, have fun with it. Trying to force players to feel they are compelled to go to Felucca because there is the only place where needed items spawn, is my view, just risks frustrating players and make them hate even more PvP and the game since they have to spend extensive time farming gold in Trammel to be able to then purchase the Felucca items. Like it was for Powerscrolls. I think that in the end powerscrolls drove more players out of the game than they attracted. The thinking of having to farm such an extensive time to earn tens upon tens of millions of gold to outfit a template with Powerscrolls I think have deterred quite a good number of players who have thought it was better to just move on to other games.

Personally, I think the right approach is not to try force players into PvP but on the contrary, make an effort through Event Moderators, highly experienced PvPers writing on Stratics or other UO related Fan sites extensive and detailed Essays on how to learn, improve and progress in PvP without leaving out the "beans". Surely each experienced PvPer has his or her small secrets to get an hedge in fights and I could imagine that many could be reluctant to give them out but the issue here is that Ultima Online needs PvP because it is an important aspect of the game but in order to have PvP progress it is necessary that players hostile to it get to become more friendly to it and this only can happen by having them know all of the ins and outs of PvP so that not only they can fit their templates with the right skills, gear and weapons, but also learn all of the tactics and strategies.

The way I see it, the game needs PvP and PvP needs its most experienced PvPers to get together and work out an Essay that can be a walkthrough for wanna be PvPers.

The Developers have already done a lot in the right direction, IMHO, with imbuing, replicas and Arenas they have provided means to close the gap for gear and weapons and have provided a place where players can train up their PvP skills. Perhaps more can be still done with more good content and design to help improve the PvP aspect of this great game but I also think that the PvP Community, those who often complain that their lands are void of players, makes an effort also to help those players who stay well away from Felucca to actually put aside their reluctancy and work their characters, gear, weapons and skills to then be able to also enlarge their enjoyment of the game by playing in Felucca ruleset also.

If you want to see more players in PvP ruleset areas, on Siege and Muegen, rather than calling names or insulting on Chat players who stay well away from Felucca, try to befriend them, be their mentors and teach them the ways to PvP, direct them to great web sites of links where extensive essays at how to learn PvPing and progress in it are written.

Why not, for eample, have a new UO Stratics Forum entirely focused on Player vs. Player playstyle in this game ? A PvP only Forum with stickies that guide players through all of the ins and outs of making a PvPer, skills needed, macros to use, strategies to learn, a Forum where experienced PvPers may discuss their different views on what the best template for PvP might be, or what the most ysefyll mods, gear, weapons and so forth. A place where players trying to learn more about PvP might go to and find good and extensive informations. Perhaps a place where players who are insterested in learning the ways to PvP might even find their mentors and teachers into the ways of PvP....

Saying that felucca ruleset areas are void of people because powerscrolls have lost their appeal and some new "bait" is needed I think is not the right approach to make PvP more enjoyed in Ultima Online. I think that the only way to make PvP succesfull is to actually make it possible that more players enjoy playing it, not that they feel forced to have to play it because of special items only obtainable in Felucca.

That's at least my opinion on the topic.

 

[Petra Fyde]

All recent changes to Felucca have been at the instigation of pvpers, and every single one has met with complaints. I'm glad I'm not a dev because by now I'd be scratching my head and asking 'So what the hell DO they want?'. Pvp can't be fixed because the pvpers themselves can't agree on what's needed.

As an example, in a faction thread a while ago there were complaints about afk silver farmers. I asked 'what would happen if silver were cursed and couldn't be sent to the bank with a BoS?'. Several experienced faction players replied that this would be a step in the right direction. No one posted in opposition to the idea. The devs saw the idea, saw the acceptance of it, saw the lack of opposition to it and implemented it. It was met with abuse and complaints.

Something over half of the regular 'fix pvp' threads translate to 'nerf this template because the guy using it keeps killing me' which makes it very hard to identify the genuine balance issues. Also, unlike the pvpers, devs have to consider what effect requested adjustments will have on pvm.

I agree that pvpers didn't kill Felucca, neither did the devs of the time - it was the bullies that did that, those people who will never fight anyone of equal skill and instead prey only on the weak and helpless. Those who's idea of 'fun' is to deliberately ruin someone else's gaming experience. Newsflash - someone who's gaming experience is consistently and continuously ruined, stops playing.

Arenas were brought in to allow people to learn to pvp in relative safety, they're almost unused. Why aren't pvp guilds arranging tournaments in them and inviting people to come and learn? The devs can only do so much, it's up to the players to build on that.

Years ago, before AoS, a friend on Europa, Zole (if anyone remembers him?) used to run a 'fight night' on Yew prison roof each Friday night. I'm a hopeless pvper, and true trammie, but I used to go regularly, I never won a fight, but I had fun. I was with friends. Sometimes it got raided by rival guilds, the experienced pvpers would group together and drive them off. Why aren't current pvp guilds doing this?

I've pvp'd with other dexxers and agreed to call it a draw, because neither of us could get the upper hand. I've pvp'd with a mage who had wrestle and gotten as frustrated as hell because I couldn't keep a weapon in my hand long enough to hit him. But I didn't come on here demanding that that mage's skills be nerfed. Mostly I just died, because I simply don't think fast enough.

 

[Thanatos]

I agree that pvpers didn't kill Felucca, neither did the devs of the time - it was the bullies that did that, those people who will never fight anyone of equal skill and instead prey only on the weak and helpless. Those who's idea of 'fun' is to deliberately ruin someone else's gaming experience. Newsflash - someone who's gaming experience is consistently and continuously ruined, stops playing.

I would totally agree with this.

I think it is sad when people think of the game as one side or the other and blame the game for them not having fun. I currently have a house in Fel and rarely every see any one near the cities or out in the wild yet any time I try to do any of the champ spawns I have to leave as a large group shows up to kill any one there and take over. It is truly the PK'ers (not to be confused with PVP'ers) that keep people out of Fel and away from PVP. Why should some one work really hard on a champ spawn and almost have it finished just to have a group move in and take it from you when they can farm gold in Trammel and buy the items they were after on a player vendor?

Since I hinted at a difference in a PK'er and PVP'er let me explain why I think they are different.

PVP'er - A player that truly enjoys the challenge of finding a worthy opponent to fight in consensual combat. PVP'ers have also been known to help younger weaker players instead of just slaughtering them.
PK'er - A player that will kill or try to kill any other player regardless of what the other player has or is doing. Have been know to grief other players to no end and would just as soon rez you after killing you just so they can kill you again instead of talking to you.

We can blame what we want to on the dev's but they have only ever given the player base what we have asked for and let the players guide the direction of the game.

So if you serious PVP'ers want to see more population in Fel and have more people join your ranks how about you band together and work on stopping the griefing? I know non-PVP players could do the same thing but then again they aren't the ones asking for things to entice people over to PVP or Fel?

 

[Lord Frodo]

Since I hinted at a difference in a PK'er and PVP'er let me explain why I think they are different.

PVP'er - A player that truly enjoys the challenge of finding a worthy opponent to fight in consensual combat. PVP'ers have also been known to help younger weaker players instead of just slaughtering them.
PK'er - A player that will kill or try to kill any other player regardless of what the other player has or is doing. Have been know to grief other players to no end and would just as soon rez you after killing you just so they can kill you again instead of talking to you.

This brought a smile to my face of the good old days in Fel meeting TRUE PvPers and talking with them. No TRUE PvPers would ever kill a MULE because it was beneath them to prey on the weak, in fact most would defend the weak to the death. TRUE PvPers would also be willing to spend time with you teaching you how to PvP without one bad word coming out of thier mouth.

Now we come to UO today and this is no longer true, I have yet to find any OLD SKOOL PvPers left in the game anymore. I walk around Fel naked and say "Hello" to all the people I meet and I get a death robe for it. Lisren to Gen Chat on any shard and what do you hear, nothing but a bunch of smack talk from the PvPers of UO today. Read all the posts about PvP and all you see is "Show Me the Money" as a reason to PvP.

PvP for the sake of PvP is DEAD.

 

[Thanatos]

Yeah I remember trying to help out a younger player in Fel Shame when a PK come along and decided to kill him and take all his stuff so me and a Red teamed up to take this guy out and get the equipment back. I wasn't a red and didn't know the red that helped but he saw what was going on and jumped in to help just the same. He even stuck around and helped me instruct the young player.

Alas that was the good days.

 

[Eärendil]

I am so happy, that you see it the same way as I do...

 

[Berethrain]

All recent changes to Felucca have been at the instigation of pvpers, and every single one has met with complaints. I'm glad I'm not a dev because by now I'd be scratching my head and asking 'So what the hell DO they want?'. Pvp can't be fixed because the pvpers themselves can't agree on what's needed.

As an example, in a faction thread a while ago there were complaints about afk silver farmers. I asked 'what would happen if silver were cursed and couldn't be sent to the bank with a BoS?'. Several experienced faction players replied that this would be a step in the right direction. No one posted in opposition to the idea. The devs saw the idea, saw the acceptance of it, saw the lack of opposition to it and implemented it. It was met with abuse and complaints.

Something over half of the regular 'fix pvp' threads translate to 'nerf this template because the guy using it keeps killing me' which makes it very hard to identify the genuine balance issues. Also, unlike the pvpers, devs have to consider what effect requested adjustments will have on pvm.

I agree that pvpers didn't kill Felucca, neither did the devs of the time - it was the bullies that did that, those people who will never fight anyone of equal skill and instead prey only on the weak and helpless. Those who's idea of 'fun' is to deliberately ruin someone else's gaming experience. Newsflash - someone who's gaming experience is consistently and continuously ruined, stops playing.

Arenas were brought in to allow people to learn to pvp in relative safety, they're almost unused. Why aren't pvp guilds arranging tournaments in them and inviting people to come and learn? The devs can only do so much, it's up to the players to build on that.

Years ago, before AoS, a friend on Europa, Zole (if anyone remembers him?) used to run a 'fight night' on Yew prison roof each Friday night. I'm a hopeless pvper, and true trammie, but I used to go regularly, I never won a fight, but I had fun. I was with friends. Sometimes it got raided by rival guilds, the experienced pvpers would group together and drive them off. Why aren't current pvp guilds doing this?

I've pvp'd with other dexxers and agreed to call it a draw, because neither of us could get the upper hand. I've pvp'd with a mage who had wrestle and gotten as frustrated as hell because I couldn't keep a weapon in my hand long enough to hit him. But I didn't come on here demanding that that mage's skills be nerfed. Mostly I just died, because I simply don't think fast enough.

What recent changes? You mean the faction ones? Oh boy, there were good things and bad things. It is funny though because you partially right. Pvpers wanted the faction gear easily accessible so they made it available to all ranks, but made the silver requirements so gross no one wanted to use it anyways lol. On the other hand, I would have liked to see them left alone.

Another thing people were talking about, and since you all see is "complaining" you really have no idea why, is that the decay rate was botched. Whether it was fixed or not I have no clue b y now, but when people were only supposed to lose say 1 point below what 100 points a day and randomly lose 10 here 20 there. Of course they're going to say something.

The decay rate on the armor was cool. That's how it should have been.

The new point distribution system sucks. They should have learned from when they tried to revamp the bases but they decided to go ahead and stick something like it in anyways.

They didn't adjust the thieves points points for a town.

The moonbound idea is great, but implemented wrong. The idea was to curb the faction gear in trammel, but it really didn't since they just changed it to lose a little durability instead of dropping in their pack etc.

So yeah, there's still a lot to be desired.

 

[Petra Fyde]

How much of this was reported as a problem when the relevant publish was on test center?

 

[Berethrain]

How much of this was reported as a problem when the relevant publish was on test center?

We reported the points problem before the publish. Hell we even reported it BEFORE test center. How did they expect to scale points when the biggest abusers were on top to begin with? And then narrow the ranks by taking those out with no points in the factor. By all means go back and look.

We said something about the points distribution too.

The ephermal status was better than nothing, so nothing was said.

The botched points decay system was a result of the publish. They tested the system but even on test shard and origins without equivalent numbers and already starting at faction points zero the amount of time to effectively test this and to see what happens was looong over.

 

[Surgeries]

I would totally agree with this.

I think it is sad when people think of the game as one side or the other and blame the game for them not having fun. I currently have a house in Fel and rarely every see any one near the cities or out in the wild yet any time I try to do any of the champ spawns I have to leave as a large group shows up to kill any one there and take over. It is truly the PK'ers (not to be confused with PVP'ers) that keep people out of Fel and away from PVP. Why should some one work really hard on a champ spawn and almost have it finished just to have a group move in and take it from you when they can farm gold in Trammel and buy the items they were after on a player vendor?

Since I hinted at a difference in a PK'er and PVP'er let me explain why I think they are different.

PVP'er - A player that truly enjoys the challenge of finding a worthy opponent to fight in consensual combat. PVP'ers have also been known to help younger weaker players instead of just slaughtering them.
PK'er - A player that will kill or try to kill any other player regardless of what the other player has or is doing. Have been know to grief other players to no end and would just as soon rez you after killing you just so they can kill you again instead of talking to you.

We can blame what we want to on the dev's but they have only ever given the player base what we have asked for and let the players guide the direction of the game.

So if you serious PVP'ers want to see more population in Fel and have more people join your ranks how about you band together and work on stopping the griefing? I know non-PVP players could do the same thing but then again they aren't the ones asking for things to entice people over to PVP or Fel?

^^^^
This...right here. This.

Henceforth...Real PvP = The Most Excitement a Person in UO or Any Game Can Have With Another Player - Consensual
PK = Forcing PvP on Another Likely Much Weaker or Less Skilled Player - Only Fun For One - Non-consensual

This is THE best explanation of the difference between the two I have read.

Well done.

 

[Berethrain]

Here is one post I put before the publish.

I wonder how they plan to scale down a player with a billion points? If they scaled that down to what is was prior the the points explosion, what is the rest of our scores going to look like?

You see, the original idea was to wipe the points completely clean, but hold the phone some "pvpers" cried they were going to lose all their faction gear because they played more than one shard.

So imagine the fix turned from the right solution into a scaled mess of what it came to be. If I recall they either wiped the points anyways or the botched decay system eventually put everyone around zero. lol.

 

[FrejaSP]

This brought a smile to my face of the good old days in Fel meeting TRUE PvPers and talking with them. No TRUE PvPers would ever kill a MULE because it was beneath them to prey on the weak, in fact most would defend the weak to the death. TRUE PvPers would also be willing to spend time with you teaching you how to PvP without one bad word coming out of thier mouth.

Now we come to UO today and this is no longer true, I have yet to find any OLD SKOOL PvPers left in the game anymore. I walk around Fel naked and say "Hello" to all the people I meet and I get a death robe for it. Lisren to Gen Chat on any shard and what do you hear, nothing but a bunch of smack talk from the PvPers of UO today. Read all the posts about PvP and all you see is "Show Me the Money" as a reason to PvP.

PvP for the sake of PvP is DEAD.

That's because of the fel/tram split. Before most PvP'er respected, that not all wanted to PvP, now they say, stay in Trammel if you want to be safe.

We do however have some of the old school PvP'er left on Siege but we also have some, who will say, stay on Trammel shards, if you want to be safe.

 

[Winker]

All recent changes to Felucca have been at the instigation of pvpers, and every single one has met with complaints. I'm glad I'm not a dev because by now I'd be scratching my head and asking 'So what the hell DO they want?'. Pvp can't be fixed because the pvpers themselves can't agree on what's needed.

As an example, in a faction thread a while ago there were complaints about afk silver farmers. I asked 'what would happen if silver were cursed and couldn't be sent to the bank with a BoS?'. Several experienced faction players replied that this would be a step in the right direction. No one posted in opposition to the idea. The devs saw the idea, saw the acceptance of it, saw the lack of opposition to it and implemented it. It was met with abuse and complaints.

First point: Devs read what being said, but then they go off and do their own thing. A good example is the New Replica which is not a replica in the first place...

Second point: I told you at the time making Silver not sendable thought the BoS would stop people farming Silver. I told you that no one wanted to get there loot taken from them by PK's and thus they would not farm the Silver

 

[Winker]

This brought a smile to my face of the good old days in Fel meeting TRUE PvPers and talking with them. No TRUE PvPers would ever kill a MULE because it was beneath them to prey on the weak, in fact most would defend the weak to the death. TRUE PvPers would also be willing to spend time with you teaching you how to PvP without one bad word coming out of thier mouth.

Now we come to UO today and this is no longer true, I have yet to find any OLD SKOOL PvPers left in the game anymore. I walk around Fel naked and say "Hello" to all the people I meet and I get a death robe for it. Lisren to Gen Chat on any shard and what do you hear, nothing but a bunch of smack talk from the PvPers of UO today. Read all the posts about PvP and all you see is "Show Me the Money" as a reason to PvP.

PvP for the sake of PvP is DEAD.

You just dont get it do you. If i play my Evil red character, thats what im playing...being evil. Playing an evil character that will attack anyone and everyone regardless of the consiqueces to myself or them is fun.

If i want to PvP, i log in my PvP character, all of which are Blue. I will then spend the time and chat to you if thats what you want or I will PvP with you.

Since the changes to the dungeon in Despise in tram, i have been playing down there quite a bit. TBF i have never seen so much griefing in all my life. Tramel Blues seamed to relish the fact that they could grief there fellow tramie to death down there.

You seam to like to repeat the phrase "PvP for the sake of PvP is DEAD" I have to ask, Do you even PvP? Making remarks like that in every post make me beleive you never PvP in your life.

 

[popps]

You just dont get it do you. If i play my Evil red character, thats what im playing...being evil. Playing an evil character that will attack anyone and everyone regardless of the consiqueces to myself or them is fun.

But I do not think it is possible not to consider the circumstance that Felucca ruleset areas are then void of people when this becomes a probem.

I mean, if we are fine with Felucca ruleset areas, Siege and Muegen being void of players, then fine, there is not even the need to discuss anything, nothing to see here.

BUT, if instead we do consider the lack of players in Felucca ruleset areas, on Siege, on Muegen, a problem, then I think it is necessary an analysis of the factors that make those places unliked by players.
Is there a problem ? If there is none, then there is no need to study it, but if there is one, then I think it is necessary to study it and possibly find solutions that might solve it.

If a particular playstyle contributes to keeping players away from those areas well, then perhaps this particular playstyle should be limited, penalized, put under some stricter guidelines maybe ?

just a thought.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Since the changes to the dungeon in Despise in tram, i have been playing down there quite a bit. TBF i have never seen so much griefing in all my life. Tramel Blues seamed to relish the fact that they could grief there fellow tramie to death down there.

You ever think that the trammel blues as you so call them could be Fel reds on their blues griefing players? I'm board no ones coming to fel for me to kill oh what to do what to do. OH !!!! I know since I can't kill players in trammel I'll get on my trammel character, and grief them. * throws back head* BRAHAHAHAHA !!!!
Seriously you think a true trammel player is going to grief players in trammel when one of the major reasons they avoid fel is this reason.

 

[Winker]

You ever think that the trammel blues as you so call them could be Fel reds on their blues griefing players? I'm board no ones coming to fel for me to kill oh what to do what to do. OH !!!! I know since I can't kill players in trammel I'll get on my trammel character, and grief them. * throws back head* BRAHAHAHAHA !!!!
Seriously you think a true trammel player is going to grief players in trammel when one of the major reasons they avoid fel is this reason.

No I dont think they are fellow PvPers from Felucca. I know everyone who PvP's on Europa and I know what guilds they are in. Its the PvM guildies that are doing all the greifing.

What I see is the trammie trying to get payback by greifing the Feluccians that killed them at a Champ spawn or where ever it was they feel that an injustace was done. They cant compeate in Felucca so they then take there anger out in an area of the game where they can stamp there feet and cry without consequences.

They wont come to Felucca and act like that, due to the fact they are simply killed and sent on their way. So they think its ok to be Fracker in tram and get away with it

 

[Winker]

But I do not think it is possible not to consider the circumstance that Felucca ruleset areas are then void of people when this becomes a probem.

I mean, if we are fine with Felucca ruleset areas, Siege and Muegen being void of players, then fine, there is not even the need to discuss anything, nothing to see here.

BUT, if instead we do consider the lack of players in Felucca ruleset areas, on Siege, on Muegen, a problem, then I think it is necessary an analysis of the factors that make those places unliked by players.
Is there a problem ? If there is none, then there is no need to study it, but if there is one, then I think it is necessary to study it and possibly find solutions that might solve it.

If a particular playstyle contributes to keeping players away from those areas well, then perhaps this particular playstyle should be limited, penalized, put under some stricter guidelines maybe ?

just a thought.

If people dislike this type of play style (Siege and Muegen) then why are the player run shards that are only that type of play style doing so well? Is it maybe that the player ran shards have not let the EA/OSI devs spoil the life style of the PvPer and made the game more PvP friendly?

I have just joined a player ran shard that has all (and some more) the Old Skool guilds from Europa on it. Its so nice to see all these people again and their guild thriving again. PvP rule set, new items added to the game that are PvP orientated and the action is better than what's going on in the EA/OSI shards.

The thing is UO PvP is the Best PvP system in a MMO that's ever been invented. Many reviews of UO say so. No other game has come close to the thrill you get PvPing in UO.

10 noobs working together can kill any experienced PvP guild with 4-5 players IF they work together. But they don't want to work together do they? 10 noobs at a champ spawn playing "there own play style" will be killed within seconds from 3-4 PvPers mainly due to team work. Not coz they have a better suit or can PvP better. 10 noobs all casting flame strike on the same target will kill that target. They can then move on to the next target...etc

So IMHO it all boils down to the lack of willingness from the Trammie to work together for a coman cause of beating the Feluccian.

 

[Lady Michelle]

No I dont think they are fellow PvPers from Felucca. I know everyone who PvP's on Europa and I know what guilds they are in. Its the PvM guildies that are doing all the greifing.

What I see is the trammie trying to get payback by greifing the Feluccians that killed them at a Champ spawn or where ever it was they feel that an injustace was done. They cant compeate in Felucca so they then take there anger out in an area of the game where they can stamp there feet and cry without consequences.

They wont come to Felucca and act like that, due to the fact they are simply killed and sent on their way. So they think its ok to be Fracker in tram and get away with it

This might be the way you see things and this is only one shard you are basing this on. What your claiming here doesn't proof true trammel players the care bears of uo are the ones that are doing this so called griefing.
I could have 2 accounts one I use for PVP and be in a pvp guild, and one used for PVM, and be in a PVM guild.
What to do today get on my pvper find someone to kill, or get on my PVMer, and find players to grief.
See Im not buying the true trammy went rogue griefing other trammy players. You have better chance buying a unbrand cookie, changing the label to girl scout cookies, and reselling them.

 

[Winker]

This might be the way you see things and this is only one shard you are basing this on. What your claiming here doesn't proof true trammel players the care bears of uo are the ones that are doing this so called griefing.
I could have 2 accounts one I use for PVP and be in a pvp guild, and one used for PVM, and be in a PVM guild.
What to do today get on my pvper find someone to kill, or get on my PVMer, and find players to grief.
See Im not buying the true trammy went rogue griefing other trammy players. You have better chance buying a unbrand cookie, changing the label to girl scout cookies, and reselling them.

Honey sooner or latter we get to know, You can change to any account you like, rename your character as many times as you like, hide behind any guild tag you like. But you cant change a persons play style or the way they like to chat in General chat.

Defend the Griefing trammie as much as you like, im sure Europa is no difrent from any other shard. The the griefing in the new content is comming from PvMers who are trying to get PAYBACK. Most of them are playing the same chars that they play on when they come to Felucca, so that kicks out that theroy of yours out about them even changing chars or account.

 

[Thanatos]

I know everyone who PvP's on Europa and I know what guilds they are in.

OK so you are claiming to know each and every person that PVP's on Europa and what guild they are in. Well I say you are full of it on this.

If people dislike this type of play style (Siege and Muegen) then why are the player run shards that are only that type of play style doing so well? Is it maybe that the player ran shards have not let the EA/OSI devs spoil the life style of the PvPer and made the game more PvP friendly?

I have never looked into the player run shared so I don't know much about them but do they charge a fee or are they free to play? If free to play that will answer your question as to why they are doing so well.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Honey sooner or latter we get to know, You can change to any account you like, rename your character as many times as you like, hide behind any guild tag you like. But you cant change a persons play style or the way they like to chat in General chat.

Defend the Griefing trammie as much as you like, im sure Europa is no difrent from any other shard. The the griefing in the new content is comming from PvMers who are trying to get PAYBACK. Most of them are playing the same chars that they play on when they come to Felucca, so that kicks out that theroy of yours out about them even changing chars or account.

Like I said this is what your claiming doesn't make it so. heck what I'm claiming I can't proof it either. MAJOR point here is stop accusing others by labeling them trammel griefer because you dislike trammel.
This is more like it.
Players since they can't kill people in trammel will grief other players. See no label

 

[Winker]

OK so you are claiming to know each and every person that PVP's on Europa and what guild they are in. Well I say you are full of it on this.

Yes I have been Killed by them all, at one point or another, after playing with the same people for 13 years you get to know who is who. Remember there is very little NEW people comming into UO, so its not so hard to get to know the 20-30 regular people who PvP on Europa

I have never looked into the player run shared so I don't know much about them but do they charge a fee or are they free to play? If free to play that will answer your question as to why they are doing so well.

Most offer the Free to play option, with the option of paying for the better equpment for PvP. in the last 6 months i have paid over 120 UK pound to get my kit up to a PvP standard on one of the shards. The same as evryone else PvPing. So yeah free to play, but if you want to compete its oing to cost, and everyone who is PvPing is willing to pay to compete.

 

[Winker]

Like I said this is what your claiming doesn't make it so. heck what I'm claiming I can't proof it either. MAJOR point here is stop accusing others by labeling them trammel griefer because you dislike trammel.
This is more like it.
Players since they can't kill people in trammel will grief other players. See no label

Honey, thats where your wrong. I dont dislike trammel. I spend 90% of my time on EA/OSI shards in Trammel. It may even be as high as 99% of my time now. Felucca is dead now, or did no one tell you?


Since your whole assumption about me is wrong i have to conclude everything you have written in this thread is wrong.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Honey, thats where your wrong. I dont dislike trammel. I spend 90% of my time on EA/OSI shards in Trammel. It may even be as high as 99% of my time now. Felucca is dead now, or did no one tell you?

Sorry meant dislike trammel players. Um Felucca dead never I don't buy it. I saw the corpse of a dead great hart by my fel castle. I'm sure it didn't kill itself so that means someone was in fel killed something so fel is not dead.

 

[Winker]

Sorry meant dislike trammel players. Um Felucca dead never I don't buy it. I saw the corpse of a dead great hart by my fel castle. My sure it didn't kill itself so that means someone was in fel killed something so fel is not dead.

No that corpse was from an IDOC hunter, i get them around my Castle in Felucca all the time. Some even park a house outside my castle from time to time. The castle is named "This House is in Danger of Collapsing" Its funny!

FYI I Dont Dislike any "Type" of player. I feel there is enough room in the game for everyone to play it to the way they want to play it. I have in-game friends who are role players, others are tresure hunters, some like to PvP and some like to bank sit and chat all day. I dont think you will ever find i have writen that i dislike a certan group of players in UO. I love to role play! I really do! When i jump on my Red Character i am honestly Role playing an evil character. I am not out to spoil your event or your champ hunt, im doing what the game was designed for...role playing. Some times i jump on my thief insted. I will stealth up to you at a champ spawn or at the harry and try and steal the scrolls rather than come down and kill you. But far too manyof you take it personaly, thats when the grief begins!

 

[Lady Michelle]

No that corpse was from an IDOC hunter, i get them around my Castle in Felucca all the time. Some even park a house outside my castle from time to time. The castle is named "This House is in Danger of Collapsing" Its funny!

FYI I Dont Dislike any "Type" of player. I feel there is enough room in the game for everyone to play it to the way they want to play it. I have in-game friends who are role players, others are tresure hunters, some like to PvP and some like to bank sit and chat all day. I dont think you will ever find i have writen that i dislike a certan group of players in UO. I love to role play! I really do! When i jump on my Red Character i am honestly Role playing an evil character. I am not out to spoil your event or your champ hunt, im doing what the game was designed for...role playing. Some times i jump on my thief insted. I will stealth up to you at a champ spawn or at the harry and try and steal the scrolls rather than come down and kill you. But far too manyof you take it personaly, thats when the grief begins!

This is about the trammel griefer label not about your friends and them being role players treasure hunters, or what you do its great you all the stuff you do. I play and do things the way I want to so I don't take it personaly I know when I go to fel what can or cannot happen. but with the label you place makes it look like you dislike the trammel player even though you have not come out and said you dislike them. I've had a player try to grief me they were in a zerg fel guild they didnt try to hide it did. I let them get to me no did they drive me off no they didn't. I sat here laughing while ignored their ranting like a wildman who came running out of the woods. i just kept playing til they left.

 

[Winker]

This is about the trammel griefer label not about your friends and them being role players treasure hunters, or what you do its great you all the stuff you do. I play and do things the way I want to so I don't take it personaly I know when I go to fel what can or cannot happen. but with the label you place makes it look like you dislike the trammel player even though you have not come out and said you dislike them. I've had a player try to grief me they were in a zerg fel guild they didnt try to hide it did. I let them get to me no did they drive me off no they didn't. I sat here laughing while ignored their ranting like a wildman who came running out of the woods. i just kept playing til they left.

And you point is:

 

[Surgeries]

If people dislike this type of play style (Siege and Muegen) then why are the player run shards that are only that type of play style doing so well? Is it maybe that the player ran shards have not let the EA/OSI devs spoil the life style of the PvPer and made the game more PvP friendly?

I have just joined a player ran shard that has all (and some more) the Old Skool guilds from Europa on it. Its so nice to see all these people again and their guild thriving again. PvP rule set, new items added to the game that are PvP orientated and the action is better than what's going on in the EA/OSI shards.

The thing is UO PvP is the Best PvP system in a MMO that's ever been invented. Many reviews of UO say so. No other game has come close to the thrill you get PvPing in UO.

10 noobs working together can kill any experienced PvP guild with 4-5 players IF they work together. But they don't want to work together do they? 10 noobs at a champ spawn playing "there own play style" will be killed within seconds from 3-4 PvPers mainly due to team work. Not coz they have a better suit or can PvP better. 10 noobs all casting flame strike on the same target will kill that target. They can then move on to the next target...etc

So IMHO it all boils down to the lack of willingness from the Trammie to work together for a coman cause of beating the Feluccian.

Look Winker...we TOTALLY get that you, and some other folks love to PvP/PK. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

It is in your constant insistence that it is the fault of the Trammies that don't want to "Band Together" to beat the "Feluccian <sp?>" that they do not enjoy PvP and/or PKs as much as you or others like you. You think that all Trammies, once they experience the thrill of PKing someone else, or "banding together" to try and beat three very well equipped and very versed PKs, that they will see the light and come running to Felucca (proper spelling)

You are completely missing the point, I guess...so I will have one more go at it.

YOU and some folks like you like to PK people. It is "Fun" for you folks. It isn't fun for the person you PK, normally. I guess some folks like it, but normally, "Like" wouldn't be something another person associates with non-consensual combat that results in the death of their character in game.

MANY people like to PvP...as stated above...I find consensual PvP is likely one of THE most fun things a person can do in an MMORPG, again, as stated above.

It makes very little difference to MOST people that if they "would just band together", they COULD "Beat" the "evil PK".

But see...this is just what any PK would want...more really inexperienced players "Banding together" (i.e. still equipped poorly for PvP, and still not really good at PvP but just trying to use numbers to gain the upper hand) as this activity provides MORE targets to PK/PvPer. Nice...that certainly helps feed the PKs/PvPer's game play.

What I find highly interesting is that many people, yourself included, are projecting what YOU like as what is fun in the game, even if others do not see what is fun in the activity. You even go so far as telling others what they would need to do to enjoy it more. In some cases, you will be correct...but based on history and the current MMORPG market, not many will follow your lead.

Most people, based on history, where most people spend their time, and the market, indicate with their subscriptions and play time, that the Non-Con aspect of UO PvP is the least attractive part of the game to them, so they just stay away...like me and my wife...we don't like non-con PvP. I have played since Beta, and I am 100% certain of what I do and don't like about this aspect of the game.

To finalize my point, I want you to objectively imagine an activity you REALLY dislike. I don't know what it would be, but perhaps tying flies, or quilting. Or maybe building miniature ships in bottles, or collecting etymology specimens...I don't know...you pick the activity.

I can assure you that there are LOTS of people who REALLY love these activities. LOVE THEM. And most of these people will likely tell you (I would certainly state this about fly tying) that if you ONLY gave it a chance that you would probably love it just like me/them.

You know damn well you wouldn't, but the subjective folks would try to get you to try it, most likely. Nothing wrong with that, right? I mean...if THEY love quilting so much, there is a REALLY BIG chance that you will too, right? If you will just try it, and keep doing it until you get REALLY good at it...then you will like it. For sure...they just know it.

The objective people would say "It's not for everyone, but I sure like it!".

And your own likes and dislikes will decide the outcome. Not a person saying "The problem with you is that you just can't stick with anything...you aren't persistent...you just want to BUY a quilt, or a dozen flies, but you don't want to have to WORK for them...YOU are the problem in not liking quilting or fly tying...they are REALLY fun things to do, if you'd just try and then keep on trying until you like it like I do."

Hopefully you see the dichotomy in this, and how very subjective and myopic in viewpoint that sounds. Hopefully, also, you can apply this to how you feel about non-con PvP and then relate those feelings to how other people might feel about it.

Stated another way: Everyone's butter melts at a different temperature.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

Her point to me seemed to be: Please don't label people.

Something I for one can certainly appreciate. Both facets have their griefers and it is nearly impossible to ascertain someone's true motivations. A quick example being: If you roleplay evil on your red (kudos btw), I might just assume you are another random pk who delights in causing others frustration, sadness, etc... I would be wrong in this case. To keep these discussions more productive assuming other players motivations and consequently "labeling" them should be avoided if possible. It quickly spirals out of control and the majority of the previous posts are just back and forth about that one issue and less on what popps had intended it to be about.

Hopefully we can steer this back on topic.

Edit: Really great post by Surgeries, he summed up my overall view on this situation. I am a pvper, not a pker, but I can understand everyone has different passions, so it is always prudent to consider other players perspectives.

 

[Winker]

Look Winker...we TOTALLY get that you, and some other folks love to PvP/PK. There is nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

It is in your constant insistence that it is the fault of the Trammies that don't want to "Band Together" to beat the "Feluccian <sp?>" that they do not enjoy PvP and/or PKs as much as you or others like you. You think that all Trammies, once they experience the thrill of PKing someone else, or "banding together" to try and beat three very well equipped and very versed PKs, that they will see the light and come running to Felucca (proper spelling)

You are completely missing the point, I guess...so I will have one more go at it.

YOU and some folks like you like to PK people. It is "Fun" for you folks. It isn't fun for the person you PK, normally. I guess some folks like it, but normally, "Like" wouldn't be something another person associates with non-consensual combat that results in the death of their character in game.

MANY people like to PvP...as stated above...I find consensual PvP is likely one of THE most fun things a person can do in an MMORPG, again, as stated above.

It makes very little difference to MOST people that if they "would just band together", they COULD "Beat" the "evil PK".

But see...this is just what any PK would want...more really inexperienced players "Banding together" (i.e. still equipped poorly for PvP, and still not really good at PvP but just trying to use numbers to gain the upper hand) as this activity provides MORE targets to PK/PvPer. Nice...that certainly helps feed the PKs/PvPer's game play.

What I find highly interesting is that many people, yourself included, are projecting what YOU like as what is fun in the game, even if others do not see what is fun in the activity. You even go so far as telling others what they would need to do to enjoy it more. In some cases, you will be correct...but based on history and the current MMORPG market, not many will follow your lead.

Most people, based on history, where most people spend their time, and the market, indicate with their subscriptions and play time, that the Non-Con aspect of UO PvP is the least attractive part of the game to them, so they just stay away...like me and my wife...we don't like non-con PvP. I have played since Beta, and I am 100% certain of what I do and don't like about this aspect of the game.

To finalize my point, I want you to objectively imagine an activity you REALLY dislike. I don't know what it would be, but perhaps tying flies, or quilting. Or maybe building miniature ships in bottles, or collecting etymology specimens...I don't know...you pick the activity.

I can assure you that there are LOTS of people who REALLY love these activities. LOVE THEM. And most of these people will likely tell you (I would certainly state this about fly tying) that if you ONLY gave it a chance that you would probably love it just like me/them.

You know damn well you wouldn't, but the subjective folks would try to get you to try it, most likely. Nothing wrong with that, right? I mean...if THEY love quilting so much, there is a REALLY BIG chance that you will too, right? If you will just try it, and keep doing it until you get REALLY good at it...then you will like it. For sure...they just know it.

The objective people would say "It's not for everyone, but I sure like it!".

And your own likes and dislikes will decide the outcome. Not a person saying "The problem with you is that you just can't stick with anything...you aren't persistent...you just want to BUY a quilt, or a dozen flies, but you don't want to have to WORK for them...YOU are the problem in not liking quilting or fly tying...they are REALLY fun things to do, if you'd just try and then keep on trying until you like it like I do."

Hopefully you see the dichotomy in this, and how very subjective and myopic in viewpoint that sounds. Hopefully, also, you can apply this to how you feel about non-con PvP and then relate those feelings to how other people might feel about it.

Stated another way: Everyone's butter melts at a different temperature.

Like i said before, if im role playing a PK I can only do it there are People to PK. I dont do it to interup your game play. If your in an area where i can attack you, then you desisded its worth the risk to be in that area. Horses for cources

 

[Lightfoot]

The problem with fel is there is no risk for anti-social types. Allow me to illustrate. I go to fel with my lumberjack for the increased wood harvest. A pk spots me and attacks. No problems there; I love it. Let's say I win (seldom happens for me). I get a few gold pieces from insurance. Twenty minutes later he's back and we do it all again. When do I get to harvest wood? If I must spend all of my time fighting, where is the reward for me coming to fel. I think most tram players see through this and stay in tram.

Two simple solutions, either of which, over time, will build fel population.

1) Die in fel and that character may not log back in for 24 hours.

or

2) Go grey and your insurance drops while you are grey.

That would be real risk vs. reward. For all pks every shard would be Siege.

 

[Logrus]

The problem with fel is there is no risk for anti-social types. Allow me to illustrate. I go to fel with my lumberjack for the increased wood harvest. A pk spots me and attacks. No problems there; I love it. Let's say I win (seldom happens for me). I get a few gold pieces from insurance. Twenty minutes later he's back and we do it all again. When do I get to harvest wood? If I must spend all of my time fighting, where is the reward for me coming to fel. I think most tram players see through this and stay in tram.

Two simple solutions, either of which, over time, will build fel population.

1) Die in fel and that character may not log back in for 24 hours.

or

2) Go grey and your insurance drops while you are grey.

That would be real risk vs. reward. For all pks every shard would be Siege.

Those consequences may be unduly harsh but Im a fan of the principle.

 

[Berethrain]

The problem with fel is there is no risk for anti-social types. Allow me to illustrate. I go to fel with my lumberjack for the increased wood harvest. A pk spots me and attacks. No problems there; I love it. Let's say I win (seldom happens for me). I get a few gold pieces from insurance. Twenty minutes later he's back and we do it all again. When do I get to harvest wood? If I must spend all of my time fighting, where is the reward for me coming to fel. I think most tram players see through this and stay in tram.

Two simple solutions, either of which, over time, will build fel population.

1) Die in fel and that character may not log back in for 24 hours.

or

2) Go grey and your insurance drops while you are grey.

That would be real risk vs. reward. For all pks every shard would be Siege.

WTF is this? I'll pass. Thanks.

 

[Berethrain]

If you wanted to "punish" for deaths youd simply add a timer before you could get rezzed.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

If you wanted to "punish" for deaths youd simply add a timer before you could get rezzed.

I just want to quickly point out that a timer for getting rezzed is potentially more harsh "time" wise than a stat-loss option Logrus brought up earlier, which has already been met with concern to say the least. The way I see it is, at least during the stat-loss time players can get rezzed, restocked, and headed back, so time wise players can still be productive.

I would like to state that I would be in favor of an increased penalty or risk on pkers (or raiders), but only if we could come to a consensus that we all feel is fair. If you look at it objectively pkers/raiders risk very little indeed when they swoop in after all the work has been done (consider the time spent by the spawners as just one example), something I believe Logrus has been successful in pointing out.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

But I do not think it is possible not to consider the circumstance that Felucca ruleset areas are then void of people when this becomes a probem.

I mean, if we are fine with Felucca ruleset areas, Siege and Muegen being void of players, then fine, there is not even the need to discuss anything, nothing to see here.

BUT, if instead we do consider the lack of players in Felucca ruleset areas, on Siege, on Muegen, a problem, then I think it is necessary an analysis of the factors that make those places unliked by players.
Is there a problem ? If there is none, then there is no need to study it, but if there is one, then I think it is necessary to study it and possibly find solutions that might solve it.

If a particular playstyle contributes to keeping players away from those areas well, then perhaps this particular playstyle should be limited, penalized, put under some stricter guidelines maybe ?

just a thought.

Or those two shards are dead because players don't like the concept. To me there are two UO's. You have your era where weapons did random specials and everything could be looted ect. Or you have items. I don't see the point in a hybrid of these two. So it's not that it's a fel rule set, it's that the set up makes no sense.

I don't care if you like siege or not, I'm just giving you a reason when quite a few people I know including myself don't like the set up. If I want to have terrible gear or no gear and play like old school uo, then I will just play old school. However if I want to play the AoS type of UO, I don't want to spend my time trying to piece together bad suits, especially since a lot of these templates are mana intensive.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

The problem with fel is there is no risk for anti-social types. Allow me to illustrate. I go to fel with my lumberjack for the increased wood harvest. A pk spots me and attacks. No problems there; I love it. Let's say I win (seldom happens for me). I get a few gold pieces from insurance. Twenty minutes later he's back and we do it all again. When do I get to harvest wood? If I must spend all of my time fighting, where is the reward for me coming to fel. I think most tram players see through this and stay in tram.

Two simple solutions, either of which, over time, will build fel population.

1) Die in fel and that character may not log back in for 24 hours.

or

2) Go grey and your insurance drops while you are grey.

That would be real risk vs. reward. For all pks every shard would be Siege.

Siege has a terrible rule set in my opinion for reasons I already stated.

Where are you running into pks? Fel is pretty empty, you could always perhaps stop going to the same spot if you keep getting killed and don't want to fight. Just a thought.

 

[CovenantX]

If you wanted to "punish" for deaths youd simply add a timer before you could get rezzed.

Yes, like wow, D3, and most other MMO's the question with the whole "timer" to be ressed, is, since dieing is the only 100% effective gold-sink in the game... What the hell would they put a cool-down on it for?

by 100% effective gold-sink, I mean, you get absolutely no rewards beyond what you currently have, and there's always a price to pay with in-game currency upon death. (insurance/repairs)

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I just want to quickly point out that a timer for getting rezzed is potentially more harsh "time" wise than a stat-loss option Logrus brought up earlier, which has already been met with concern to say the least. The way I see it is, at least during the stat-loss time players can get rezzed, restocked, and headed back, so time wise players can still be productive.

I would like to state that I would be in favor of an increased penalty or risk on pkers (or raiders), but only if we could come to a consensus that we all feel is fair. If you look at it objectively pkers/raiders risk very little indeed when they swoop in after all the work has been done (consider the time spent by the spawners as just one example), something I believe Logrus has been successful in pointing out.

I have a problem with these for the fact that underdogs already have it difficult. So now if they are raiding with 2 vs 8 and one dies they have to go into stat while not in factions? In my experience any time a guild is doing a spawn they have the numbers. For whatever reason most people have said its not fair because they have to kill the champ and defend. I don't understand why they have to do both at the same time, they could kill the raiders then go back to finishing the champ.

Also reds don't have access to virtues so if the take over a champ spawn for example, they are only getting 6 scrolls instead of 12.

It doesn't happen often anymore, but some of the best fights/most fun I've ever had were non faction fights where it was just a non stop battle back and fourth, and I don't see a good reason to take that out.