My ideal Fel/Tram system

[GalenKnighthawke]

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[SlobberKnocker]

no disrespect sir, but how can you begin this thread with the front of putting out a proposed fel/tram balance mechanism in place after your recent body of work on other threads has been quite anti-fel to say the least.

please take my apologies if i view your proposal with a modest degree of skepticism.

just the NYC cynicism in me...

 

[CovenantX]

Welp, sounds interesting. The only down-fall would be, people like me would only leave fel to sell something. (new vendor-search & Auction house (if that's what they're doing?)) would jeopardize my reason of going to tram at all. Which is why I'm supportive of the Exclusive content for each different area Idea, as opposed to mirroring every thing.

But, one or the other would suffice.

 

[Corpin]

Well here we go.

This is what I would propose if it weren't such an advantage to be strident and unreasonable and one-sided.

In no particular order.

Mirror Ilshenar, but no dungeons, no spawn save for the 3 overland champ spawn areas. The Oaks area remains Oaks, the other 2 are converted into Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich. Make Ilshenar 2 Fel dungeon rules.

Make the Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich spawns as currently constituted Trammel-only. (Putting Fel versions in Ilshenar 2 as indicated.)

Power Scrolls spawn in Trammel rules spawns but only at 105 and 110 levels (there is, if memory serves, an item that can convert those into higher-end scrolls if you can accumulate enough of them).

Add Ilshenar 2 to the list of places the Harrower can spawn. When Harrower spawns in Ilshenar 2, 1 in 10 chance it can spawn in normal Ilshenar, with identical rewards. (It might even spawn as a Paragon.)

Improve the Harrower so he's basically non-soloable. (Nothing will ever make a monster in this game literally non-soloable but you can make it difficult and unlikely.)

Remove all Harrower-specific rewards save for stat scrolls.

Instead, Harrower can drop any artifact that's available anywhere in the game, including from the library or museum contribution awards. You might get a Crystalline Ring, you might get an Evil Statue, you might get the Luna Lance, you might get a Covetous Artifact. You might get nothing. You might get something that was only available for a limited period, like a Daimyo's Helm or a Redeemer. You might get a Slither, Cincture, or Tangle.

Small chance, say 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 of something dropping but if something drops it could literally be anything.

Add small chance of getting any ML ingredient or any Imbuing ingredient to the champ loot. (So, say, Baracoon might have 3 or 4 Essences of Passion.)

Nobody has to go to Fel or has to go to Tram. It's just that you're more likely to get something more reliably in one or the other, but the requirement is removed.

Cross-shard trading will still happen because going to one or the other place is still the most-reliable way to get certain things, it's no longer the only way to.

People who don't want to go to Trammel ever can chain Harrowers and, sooner or later, after much effort and much fighting, will probably get what they want.

Or they can lose patience and trade.

-Galen's player

Thats the most unbiased I have seen you. I am impressed. I agree with almost all of it. I would still like something more for fel with the drop rate and worth of a slither only obtainable in fel but that is a difficult task creating an item to balance both facets economy.

One idea I think would be amazing, daily/weekly whatever.. but random world bosses spawnable in ANY facet. Sometimes they are in tram, sometimes in fel. Random locations that you would have to search for. The longer they go unkilled then the more loot they generate. That might take EM participation however as I am not familiar with the coding it would require to increase loot over time. These monsters would have to be ever changing so as not to get boring similar to EM based bosses.. a combination of many current boss abilities that would require a group, or even mob of players.

It popping in fel would give a mix of pvp and pvm and quench the thirst of the desire to have something to fight over, but be an equal opportunity for Trammies when one spawns in tram.

These I think too should only drop the most high end artifacts and give room for the implemenation of new items. I think this would also strengthen the community... "Anyone seen the world boss yet? ... OMG this thing is tough, everyone come help!" etc.

Balanced for tram, fel and just a fun new addition.

However, I do agree heavily with Covenent, it would still be ideal for the two facets to warrant different rewards to give the option to participate and aquire different items through encounter completion or trading/bartering.

 

[Gorbs]

Sounds like a lot of work. I wouldn't mind some of this being incorporated / merged with the thread from earlier suggesting a fel dungeon / zone accessible by multiple / all shards. We have enough spawns in T2A and regular Fel dungeons not being worked...it's hard to justify putting out another landmass for more champ spawns.

 

[Berethrain]

Well here we go.

This is what I would propose if it weren't such an advantage to be strident and unreasonable and one-sided.

In no particular order.

Mirror Ilshenar, but no dungeons, no spawn save for the 3 overland champ spawn areas. The Oaks area remains Oaks, the other 2 are converted into Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich. Make Ilshenar 2 Fel dungeon rules.

Make the Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich spawns as currently constituted Trammel-only. (Putting Fel versions in Ilshenar 2 as indicated.)

Power Scrolls spawn in Trammel rules spawns but only at 105 and 110 levels (there is, if memory serves, an item that can convert those into higher-end scrolls if you can accumulate enough of them).

Add Ilshenar 2 to the list of places the Harrower can spawn. When Harrower spawns in Ilshenar 2, 1 in 10 chance it can spawn in normal Ilshenar, with identical rewards. (It might even spawn as a Paragon.)

Improve the Harrower so he's basically non-soloable. (Nothing will ever make a monster in this game literally non-soloable but you can make it difficult and unlikely.)

Remove all Harrower-specific rewards save for stat scrolls.

Instead, Harrower can drop any artifact that's available anywhere in the game, including from the library or museum contribution awards. You might get a Crystalline Ring, you might get an Evil Statue, you might get the Luna Lance, you might get a Covetous Artifact. You might get nothing. You might get something that was only available for a limited period, like a Daimyo's Helm or a Redeemer. You might get a Slither, Cincture, or Tangle.

Small chance, say 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 of something dropping but if something drops it could literally be anything.

Add small chance of getting any ML ingredient or any Imbuing ingredient to the champ loot. (So, say, Baracoon might have 3 or 4 Essences of Passion.)

Nobody has to go to Fel or has to go to Tram. It's just that you're more likely to get something more reliably in one or the other, but the requirement is removed.

Cross-shard trading will still happen because going to one or the other place is still the most-reliable way to get certain things, it's no longer the only way to.

People who don't want to go to Trammel ever can chain Harrowers and, sooner or later, after much effort and much fighting, will probably get what they want.

Or they can lose patience and trade.

-Galen's player

I could go for parts of this.

And the world boss part is kind of cool, seems similar to the RIFT idea. I started to play RIFT but it was laggy on my shoddy equipment so i was forced to stop.

I wouldn't even say it had to be random, just under certain conditions. Whatever those conditions might be, who knows.

I'm glad though Galen, that you can be reasonable.

 

[Corpin]

I could go for parts of this.

And the world boss part is kind of cool, seems similar to the RIFT idea. I started to play RIFT but it was laggy on my shoddy equipment so i was forced to stop.

I wouldn't even say it had to be random, just under certain conditions. Whatever those conditions might be, who knows.

I'm glad though Galen, that you can be reasonable.

I think it would be better random. Certain conditions such as harrowers, gathering keys etc is monotonous and controlled. I think the random spawn would give many new elements such as searching, deciding weather to kill or let it simmer for more loot, etc. "Man I'm bored.. I'm going to go search for the world boss!" etc. and again, it would open up more communication within the community.

 

[Lady Michelle]

Its always about bring the community together, but how do you bring the fel, and tram community together.
This could be one way
Since these champs Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich you can get in by either fel or tram to work them. They should be made to where reds or blues can put their differences aside, and work these spawns together. take out the 115 n 120s, add in more item content.

 

[Logrus]

I only have a couple of issues not so much with what this solution covers but rather what it doesnt.
I think that there does need to be more consequence for actions for both Tram and Fel. I think dying should engage a very short, and minor statloss. (Say 20% for 5 mins). Regardless if killed by Player or Monster (Both Tram and Fel).
In terms of PvP activities, specificially PKing/Spawn Raiding, there needs to be some risk for the attackers. The rampant pking which created the tram fel problem has never been addressed, and so there has never been much of a reason not to let somone else do the leg work and then steal the reward. What that risk may be, no idea.
I would also like to see the rarer ingeredentes in crafting become more available through non-combat type activities. Hell, how about maybe eliminating the special requisite materials altogether in exchange for the item being brittl/50 durability.

And, insert the OP posting here, and add some randomness.

Drop in the old Noto system so reds can work back to bing blue, but through a logical succession of tasks or requirement satisfaction.

 

[cazador]

Well here we go.

This is what I would propose if it weren't such an advantage to be strident and unreasonable and one-sided.

In no particular order.

Mirror Ilshenar, but no dungeons, no spawn save for the 3 overland champ spawn areas. The Oaks area remains Oaks, the other 2 are converted into Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich. Make Ilshenar 2 Fel dungeon rules.

Make the Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich spawns as currently constituted Trammel-only. (Putting Fel versions in Ilshenar 2 as indicated.)

Power Scrolls spawn in Trammel rules spawns but only at 105 and 110 levels (there is, if memory serves, an item that can convert those into higher-end scrolls if you can accumulate enough of them).

Add Ilshenar 2 to the list of places the Harrower can spawn. When Harrower spawns in Ilshenar 2, 1 in 10 chance it can spawn in normal Ilshenar, with identical rewards. (It might even spawn as a Paragon.)

Improve the Harrower so he's basically non-soloable. (Nothing will ever make a monster in this game literally non-soloable but you can make it difficult and unlikely.)

Remove all Harrower-specific rewards save for stat scrolls.

Instead, Harrower can drop any artifact that's available anywhere in the game, including from the library or museum contribution awards. You might get a Crystalline Ring, you might get an Evil Statue, you might get the Luna Lance, you might get a Covetous Artifact. You might get nothing. You might get something that was only available for a limited period, like a Daimyo's Helm or a Redeemer. You might get a Slither, Cincture, or Tangle.

Small chance, say 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 of something dropping but if something drops it could literally be anything.

Add small chance of getting any ML ingredient or any Imbuing ingredient to the champ loot. (So, say, Baracoon might have 3 or 4 Essences of Passion.)

Nobody has to go to Fel or has to go to Tram. It's just that you're more likely to get something more reliably in one or the other, but the requirement is removed.

Cross-shard trading will still happen because going to one or the other place is still the most-reliable way to get certain things, it's no longer the only way to.

People who don't want to go to Trammel ever can chain Harrowers and, sooner or later, after much effort and much fighting, will probably get what they want.

Or they can lose patience and trade.

-Galen's player

So I don't know if I'm reading correct so just some clarification..you're saying that a 1 in 10 chance after collecting all the skulls the harrower can actually spawn in the current illshenar..tram ruleset?

 

[A Zombie]

Some good ideas here. It's nice to see players of different playstyles working towards a common goal. I was thinkin tho mirror Tokuno. Keep spawns and all other drops on both sides, but only allow PS on the fel side

I'd also re-introdude the tot system, only instead of the major artifacts now, replace them with random 1 mod max intensity imbuable items. Heck you could also make the minor artifacts cursed. (both tram and fel rulesets)

Seems to me those items would be worth fighting over, and reds would have a chance to get their own (better if they kill and loot the cursed minor artis)

 

[Madrid]

I only have a couple of issues not so much with what this solution covers but rather what it doesnt.
I think that there does need to be more consequence for actions for both Tram and Fel. I think dying should engage a very short, and minor statloss. (Say 20% for 5 mins). Regardless if killed by Player or Monster (Both Tram and Fel).

This is a terrible idea.

You may not value your time but I do. One of the dumbest things ever done with PvP, forcing someone to sit on the sidelines for what? Almost 20 mins? What an anti-PvP measurement that was putting that in place.

Now you want to add statloss to PvM in Trammel as well? Do you not want players to 'play' the game?

Time is the most precious commodity in the universe, bar none, and I for one don't want to log into a game where I get penalized and have to sit there holding my #$% in my hand for even 5 minutes. If that's the course Ultima Online is going to take I'll go find another game.

If you want to implement some form of penalty fine but don't make it time. Maybe more players would actually join factions and PvP if they didn't have to worry about wasting their time every time they died. Why don't you lower the penalty to get players more involved?

You may not have better things to do with your time but I can assure you I do.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

This is what I would propose if it weren't such an advantage to be strident and unreasonable and one-sided.

I can't argue that there is no advantage to being "strident and unreasonable and one-sided", but I find a few flaws with the statement. I believe that the truly humble and reasonable and unbiased will see through the perceived advantages and devalue the subject material being discussed. More importantly in my view, I would never lower my morals to take advantage in such a situation.

I'm sorry to detract from your post, but I have been holding back this past day as a multitude of posters presumed to categorise groups of people from both sides of the argument, a slippery slope if I have ever seen one.

I consider myself a well balanced player. I actively PvP, enjoy the occasional PvM encounter, craft, participate in events, etc... but reading comments like "PvP for the sake of PvP is dead." just perplexes me. It can't be dead, I PvP for the sake of PvP. I know others that do as well, so the statement "PvP for the sake of PvP is rare." would be more accurate. It is these kind of assumptions and misrepresentations that detract from the productive conversations we can only hope to have more often.

I apologize again for having to sidetrack with the above comments and would like to sincerely thank you for taking the time to share your ideas with us, especially as you quite fairly view the majority of us PvP posters with skepticism, to say the least. I enjoyed reading your ideas and I feel quite a few of them have potential, I also liked some of Berethrain's, Corpin's, and Logrus' suggestions. One thing I hope we can succeed on in the future (in addition to some more civility in posts all around) would be to work towards a consensus of suggestions, I believe we often under utilize the interesting ideas posters come up with by not doing this.

 

[Corpin]

I consider myself a well balanced player. I actively PvP, enjoy the occasional PvM encounter, craft, participate in events, etc... but reading comments like "PvP for the sake of PvP is dead." just perplexes me. It can't be dead, I PvP for the sake of PvP. I know others that do as well, so the statement "PvP for the sake of PvP is rare." would be more accurate. It is these kind of assumptions and misrepresentations that detract from the productive conversations we can only hope to have more often.

I too PvP just to PvP.. BUT it would be nice to have an updated goal to fight over. Some of the most epic fights have been for a purpose.

I posted in another thread an EM hosted event.. well hell I'll just copypasta... its worth the read. It for me, is the most fun in PvP I have ever had, and it included both facet's players. You had to be there to understand the epicness.

I would like to share something the EMs did on Lake Superior not toooo long ago, I'm not sure they did this on other shards or not.

They had an EM hosted event at the arena in Haven. They told people to seperate into teams, 2s, 3s, etc. The rules were this, you get into the arena and have a skirmish.. but YOU COULD NOT HEAL YOURSELF. You could only heal your teammates. This lasted a good couple hours and trammies as well as pvpers showed up and participated. Granted, my guildies and I won since we were experienced in pvp, but everyone seemed to enjoy it. I was quite suprised with the trammie turn out and participation.

A few days later, there was a fel event East of Britain, along the coast line where the Ems spawned many monsters and even a custom boss. The turn out was immense, and the previous arena skirmish really did great to get the trammies to band together.. I admit, for a bit there was some reds attacking blues.. but it was a pretty amazing sight to behold, the trammies grouped together and applied the crosshealing and while mostly tamers would spam all kill on the pvpers that were attacking they repressed them quite a bit.. but honestly, there were only a very few reds attacking blues.

The outcome? The "wolves" vs "wolves" fight was one of the biggest in my recent memory. it was chaos, many pvp guilds in all out open field battle, a true pvpers dream. The trammies killed the boss while the pvper's kept themselves busy fighting each other and the blues were left completely alone except for the few trammies that wanted to actually try to pvp.

To me, it was a wonderful few hours and I was personally amazed and proud of EM Auto and Aname for organizing, planning and carrying out this event. All had fun.. The pvpers had an amazing fight, the trammies got pixel crack and actually stuck around to watch/participate in the pvp.

I know this doesn't hold much weight on the current discussion, but man... it was epic.

Just wanted to share.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

I too PvP just to PvP.. BUT it would be nice to have an updated goal to fight over. Some of the most epic fights have been for a purpose.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, my main purpose was to illustrate that assuming peoples motivations is foolish and the assumptions will often be wrong. I enjoyed reading about the event, it was worth sharing, thank you.

 

[Logrus]

Madrid && GalenKnighthawke
Factions is ~30% for 20 minutes. I would consider 20% for 5 minutes, minor in comparison. 20 % also hasn't taken you out of the game but it has definitely reduced your effectiveness. Maybe lower it to 15%, I think 10% is too little.

Madrid
I think time is -very- valuable, but if you can find something else in game that makes death an actual consequence not an inconvenience I'd be quite happy to hear it. In PvM it probably would take you about 5 mins to find a res and get back to where you died.
----
Actually that may be an interesting opportunity to buff compassion virtue to reduce that stat time.
----

 

[Lady Michelle]

I only have a couple of issues not so much with what this solution covers but rather what it doesnt.
I think that there does need to be more consequence for actions for both Tram and Fel. I think dying should engage a very short, and minor statloss. (Say 20% for 5 mins). Regardless if killed by Player or Monster (Both Tram and Fel).
In terms of PvP activities, specificially PKing/Spawn Raiding, there needs to be some risk for the attackers. The rampant pking which created the tram fel problem has never been addressed, and so there has never been much of a reason not to let somone else do the leg work and then steal the reward. What that risk may be, no idea.
I would also like to see the rarer ingeredentes in crafting become more available through non-combat type activities. Hell, how about maybe eliminating the special requisite materials altogether in exchange for the item being brittl/50 durability.

And, insert the OP posting here, and add some randomness.

Drop in the old Noto system so reds can work back to bing blue, but through a logical succession of tasks or requirement satisfaction.

When your talking about statloss from monsters are you talking about for players working a champ spawn, peerless, and the new revamped dungeons?
Not trying to be funny here, but it would be silly to be put in statloss by a mongbat, headless you know easy kills.

 

[ShadowTrauma]

I would say you just made a good point. It could definately have a negative effect on EM events, but personally I wouldn't put the negative spin on it off the bat. The same effect could make people play together more as dying would have a greater consequence, but I agree with you it would most certainly be a greater issue at EM events where dying is all but certain.

Galen I really do apologize if it seemed like I was singling you out. I know I used one of your quotes, but I was referring to many different posters attitudes. I often like your ideas, respect your opinions, and believe you have much to offer our UO community.

 

[Madrid]

Madrid && GalenKnighthawke
Factions is ~30% for 20 minutes. I would consider 20% for 5 minutes, minor in comparison. 20 % also hasn't taken you out of the game but it has definitely reduced your effectiveness. Maybe lower it to 15%, I think 10% is too little.

Madrid
I think time is -very- valuable, but if you can find something else in game that makes death an actual consequence not an inconvenience I'd be quite happy to hear it. In PvM it probably would take you about 5 mins to find a res and get back to where you died.
----
Actually that may be an interesting opportunity to buff compassion virtue to reduce that stat time.
----

You already have a consequence of dieing i.e.I lose my insurance money. It hurts my pocketbook. Raise the cost for insurance if you want a greater penalty for dieing...

Why the need to add something else?

If die if it's going to take me more than 5 minutes, I guarantee you I'll be self-resurrecting via compassion virtue. My time is limited and sitting idly still doing nothing while I'm in game not on my list of fun things to do in this game. And we do play for fun don't we?

I can understand the need for a cool down timer in PvP but in PvM all it's going to do is piss people off.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

If you were to do something like this then they will HAVE to get rid of all of the T2A spawns. Last thing PvP guilds need is to have to spend another 15 minutes scouting spawns. Some of the biggest fights I have been involved in came from scouting spawns and fiding 1-2 members of a large PvP guild trying to "sneak" in a spawn. Those 1-2 members called in their guild and we had a huge, fun, fight.

 

[Logrus]

Right Logrus....I can just imagine this effect this would have on, say, EM events. Why bother healing the tank when, if he dies, he'll come back 20% less effective and thus that much less likely to do enough damage to be a competitor for you for the item.

Same for global event content. A disincentive to help each other is, I argue, the last thing we need.

-Galen's player

Don't know what the second portion of that has to do with anything I posted. So I'll just side step it.

The suggestion was more to make death be something that matters without being crippling, that's why I was making the point to say reducing effectiveness, rather making someone ineffective. (Don't you get credit for healing the tank anyway , so it would be in your best interest to be healing as much as possible to increase your loot chances?)


I think insurance was a necessary evil with the AOS shift from skill to item based, but with the increase availability of gold and growth in player power, much of the insurance costs are almost paltry to most players. But for those players that don't enjoy money gaining activities or have no significant income from their playstyle, increasing the insurance cost can be almost prohibitive for them.

Suffice to say that outside of PvP death has almost lost any significance. (Even in PvP its just an indicator that that particular fight is over)

A decrease in effectiveness was my proposition, is it ideal, the best, suitable, no idea. Just figured I'd throw in my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[Lythos-]

Well here we go.

Mirror Ilshenar, but no dungeons, no spawn save for the 3 overland champ spawn areas. The Oaks area remains Oaks, the other 2 are converted into Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich. Make Ilshenar 2 Fel dungeon rules.

Make the Abyssal Infernal and Primeval Lich spawns as currently constituted Trammel-only. (Putting Fel versions in Ilshenar 2 as indicated.)

Power Scrolls spawn in Trammel rules spawns but only at 105 and 110 levels (there is, if memory serves, an item that can convert those into higher-end scrolls if you can accumulate enough of them).

Add Ilshenar 2 to the list of places the Harrower can spawn. When Harrower spawns in Ilshenar 2, 1 in 10 chance it can also spawn in normal Ilshenar, with identical rewards. (It might even spawn as a Paragon.) (In other words, 1 in 10 chance of spawning in 2 locations, in 2 distinct but geographically identically facets, at the same time, thus casuing immense chaos.)

Improve the Harrower so he's basically non-soloable. (Nothing will ever make a monster in this game literally non-soloable but you can make it difficult and unlikely.)

Remove all Harrower-specific rewards save for stat scrolls.

Instead, Harrower can drop any artifact that's available anywhere in the game, including from the library or museum contribution awards. You might get a Crystalline Ring, you might get an Evil Statue, you might get the Luna Lance, you might get a Covetous Artifact. You might get nothing. You might get something that was only available for a limited period, like a Daimyo's Helm or a Redeemer. You might get a Slither, Cincture, or Tangle.

Small chance, say 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 of something dropping but if something drops it could literally be anything.

Add small chance of getting any ML ingredient or any Imbuing ingredient to the champ loot. (So, say, Baracoon might have 3 or 4 Essences of Passion.)

Nobody has to go to Fel or has to go to Tram. It's just that you're more likely to get something more reliably in one or the other, but the requirement is removed.

Cross-shard trading will still happen because going to one or the other place is still the most-reliable way to get certain things, it's no longer the only way to.

People who don't want to go to Trammel ever can chain Harrowers and, sooner or later, after much effort and much fighting, will probably get what they want.

Or they can lose patience and trade.

-Galen's player

I'm very impressed sir. Level headed and thoughtful for both sides.

I play in fel almost exclusive and i wouldn't think twice about giving Tram rulesets a chance at getting 120s in a spawn. I think by just not allowing protection scrolls and maybe slightly decreasing the chance for getting one would be plenty and fair for all.

Your harrower idea is fabulous BUT i don't think new a land is what we need. We're already spread so thin as it is so why not reuse existing land? I would like to see Khaldun dungeon as a fel version for the underworld. We could use an existing space in T2A for this new harrower (removing a spawn) or even the basement of Hythloth. It would also make it more interesting with other things spawning around.

Nice job sir.

 

[KLOMP]

Summoning Harrower in Fel = 10% chance of spawning Harrower inside Luna Bank. With full rewards.

DO EET.