On the topic of Felucca and PvP....

[popps]

Over the years, I have seen many times posts about the lack of players on Siege, in Felucca and many attempts to revive PvP in Ultima Online but never have I read discussions about what I think is the core problem that is common to all these problems. To my opinion, it is unfair fights. I do not think that, when playing a game, a player enjoys loosing. It can happen, sure, but together with losing fights there should also be winning fights to keep players wanting to keep PvPing and thus play on Siege, in Felucca and bring life to those places. So, as I see it, the most crucial aspect of the problems lamented is "uneven fights". Ganking being one of the worst aspects of the problem. I think that if an effort was made to ensure that PvP fights were to be balanced, whether between individuals or groups, then more and more players would entertain this important aspect of Ultima Online and replenish the PvP areas of UO. In order to achieve that, though, the game would need a special PvP engine that assessed the "power" of characters both evaluating their total skills and their gear/weaponry and allow only a slight inbalance (say 10% plus or minus ?) between the attacker and the defender (be them 2 individuals or 2 groups). That is, to make an example, if player A wants to initiate an attack against player B, the PvP engine would make a weighted assessment of the power of player A and that of player B and only if the 2 totals come into the same range, plus or minus 10%, then the combat would be allowed. If player A was to be too strong as in respect to player B, the PvP engine would not allow the combat. This way, fights would be more open ended and ganking would no longer occur as well as having players most always winning and others most always losing fights. Having unbalanced fights is bad for the game because, at least I see it, those eventually always losing will get fed up and stop playing the game or at least stop PvPing, while those most always winning fights will eventually get bored of winning all the time and leave the game for lack of competition and boredom. So, ensuring that combat could occur only when the 2 fighting parties are moreless on an even power balance I think would help PvPing in Ultima Online. Of course, this means the need for resources to invest in such an important aspect of the game but I think it is the most important aspect to solve the problem because it goes to treat what I think is the root of the problems which affect PvP in Ultima Online.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Outstanding try, this would be PvPing for the sake of PvPing, but as you can see with all the PvP posts this is not a good enough reason for them because they want the goodies to go with it. Even if you had a PvP Leader Board that would not be good enough. PvPing for the sake of PvPing is dead without the lures.

 

[funkymonkey]

I disagree i pvp just to pvp, i don't care what reward there is, i just want a nice long fight, thing is there's not enough players for that to happen. Hence the reason why people want/try to get a solution to encourage people to.
The way i see it is that Pvp is the end game of UO.

 

[Berethrain]

Most people who pvp still pvp just to pvp, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. It's still fun but we would like more people to try it out and we also want something else to do.

I do not see why it is unreasonable to ask for something new. What new content has there been in fel lately? Power scrolls? How many years has that been?

 

[FrejaSP]

Over the years, I have seen many times posts about the lack of players on Siege, in Felucca and many attempts to revive PvP in Ultima Online but never have I read discussions about what I think is the core problem that is common to all these problems. To my opinion, it is unfair fights. I do not think that, when playing a game, a player enjoys loosing. It can happen, sure, but together with losing fights there should also be winning fights to keep players wanting to keep PvPing and thus play on Siege, in Felucca and bring life to those places.

Not sure you can make the fights fair, a crafter will never have the skills to even try to fight back as he have to use most of his skill points for crafting. A PvM'er may make his template and choice of gear, so it works vs the monsters he fight but it may not be very useful vs a PK.
Fights do not last long now, I think that's a problem too. The victim is dead before he get a chance to run or try to fight back. Loosing a fight is not always bad, if you at least get to fight a little before you die.

So, as I see it, the most crucial aspect of the problems lamented is "uneven fights". Ganking being one of the worst aspects of the problem. I think that if an effort was made to ensure that PvP fights were to be balanced, whether between individuals or groups, then more and more players would entertain this important aspect of Ultima Online and replenish the PvP areas of UO.

That's not the problem on Siege, Sieges problem was and still is, players who die to much have hard with replacing their gear and special PvP gear is expensive. We do not want Item Insurance, just cheaper crafting resources. 2 x resource drop from monsters would help alot, special gems and essences are a problem. Also fame lose when dying can be hard to replace.

In order to achieve that, though, the game would need a special PvP engine that assessed the "power" of characters both evaluating their total skills and their gear/weaponry and allow only a slight inbalance (say 10% plus or minus ?) between the attacker and the defender (be them 2 individuals or 2 groups). That is, to make an example, if player A wants to initiate an attack against player B, the PvP engine would make a weighted assessment of the power of player A and that of player B and only if the 2 totals come into the same range, plus or minus 10%, then the combat would be allowed. If player A was to be too strong as in respect to player B, the PvP engine would not allow the combat. This way, fights would be more open ended and ganking would no longer occur as well as having players most always winning and others most always losing fights.

Keep that off Siege please

 

[FrejaSP]

Split up the skill cap, so all can have both PvP skills and crafting skills.

 

[cazador]

Split up the skill cap, so all can have both PvP skills and crafting skills.

No..what I do think would be a good addition..mules can have all crafting skills instead of having to switch between
Tailor
Smith
Scribe
Carp
Fletch
Arms lore
Imbuing
Alchemy

...sounds good on one temp without having to use soul stones every time

 

[popps]

Outstanding try, this would be PvPing for the sake of PvPing, but as you can see with all the PvP posts this is not a good enough reason for them because they want the goodies to go with it. Even if you had a PvP Leader Board that would not be good enough. PvPing for the sake of PvPing is dead without the lures.

I am in favour of rewards for winning PvP fights only that I think the fights would need to be balanced so as to leave open ended outcomes.

For example, say that a miner is mining in Felucca and an attacker wants to kill him/her and take whatever ingots/gems they got. The attacker will need to be within moreless the same power of the miner (skills and gear/weaponry wise) in order to initiate balanced combat but if the miner is killed, the corpse will be lootable.

The same would be if the miner was able to kill the attacker, they should be able to loot the corpse of the attacker.

What I have learned over the years of playing Ultima Online, is that most players who fled Felucca and PvP did it so because of ganking and fights that were uneven, where the defenders hardly had a chance for an open ended combat.

But if the defending party was to have a chance at winning a fight because the PvP engine would make sure that only balanced fights were to be allowed to initiate, I think more people would consider again wandering in PvP areas and so play on Siege/Muegen.

 

[Lythos-]

Not sure you can make the fights fair, a crafter will never have the skills to even try to fight back as he have to use most of his skill points for crafting. A PvM'er may make his template and choice of gear, so it works vs the monsters he fight but it may not be very useful vs a PK.
Fights do not last long now, I think that's a problem too. The victim is dead before he get a chance to run or try to fight back. Loosing a fight is not always bad, if you at least get to fight a little before you die.

I have pvped on a gm tinker/miner before...and won, more than once

You're also right about fights not lasting long.

THE main problem with today's pvp revolves around factions. Seriously nobody wants to get ganked but it's so much worse to try to fight someone in factions only to have more faction players come gank. It's bad enough there's the stat timer but you also have to stay logged in rendering your game time useless for 20min. The faction armor still has its advantages so yeah some people want to do it.

Pvpers pvp because they enjoy it but there has to be something big going on to draw their attention. If i may suggest, appoint seperate volunteer EM type people specifically to promote pvp. Daily King of the Hills. No rares, no rewards maybe a robe showing they won. People just need a little structure and a reason to log in.

 

[popps]

Most people who pvp still pvp just to pvp, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. It's still fun but we would like more people to try it out and we also want something else to do.

I do not see why it is unreasonable to ask for something new. What new content has there been in fel lately? Power scrolls? How many years has that been?

I do not think that baits are the solution to PvP and the history of Powerscrolls in Ultima Online is a prime example of this. It ended up with Guilds monopolizing the spawns, making enormous amounts of gold which allowed them to buy better gear and weaponry and so become further unbeatable and kept all other players away from Felucca forcing them to spend enormous amounts of gold to buy the powerscrolls that they wanted.

It helped a small minority of players in the game to become extremely wealthy, but it did not help the game since it did not really help populate PvP areas, it actually made them even emptier.....

I actually think that powerscrolls in Felucca hurt Ultima Online and are one of the reasons of subscription losses in the game. I think that some players might have been deterred by the high prices of powerscrolls (because of the monopolies) and did not want to invest the vast amount of time needed to make the tens of millions needed to buy powerscrolls to outfit their characters, and so they preferred to just leave UO for other games.

Just replacing powerscrolls with some other item would only replace that situation with the bigger problem that now the population is scarcer and to further loose players deterred by new, needed but unreachable items only spawning in Felucca and monopolized by few Guilds, might be too much for Ultima Online to survive to it. Too much a risk to even try it, IMHO.

I thought about it a lot and personally, whether right or wrong, I came to the conclusion that the reason why most players stay away from PvP is because they think they are not competitive for the fights and hardly have a chance at surviving combat. Hence, why bother participating at all ?

That is why I think that the root of the problem is ensuring that uneven fights cannot happen any longer which means bye bye ganking and one hit kills from uber powerfull attackers at the expense of under powered defenders.

I often hear the argument that people prefer PvP to PvM because of the challenges against a human opponent which no computer controlled NPC can match. Well, the challenge exists, at least as I see it, only as long as the 2 parties confronting have moreless the same combat power. If one of the parties involved exceeds in modifiers/skills, where is the challenge ??

 

[popps]

Fights do not last long now, I think that's a problem too. The victim is dead before he get a chance to run or try to fight back. Loosing a fight is not always bad, if you at least get to fight a little before you die.

Well, if a fight is balanced, I would guess that the fight would be an enduring one, and only when one of the 2 parties makes a mistake or two while fighting, or the RNG gives them a hand by landing a hit more often than usually, then the fight would eventually end with one of the parties winning.

If a fight ends too soon, to my thinking this shows an unbalanced fight where one party is way stronger than the other. This is what should be addressed to mensure challenging and fun fights.

The root of the problem is unbalanced fights, IMHO.

 

[popps]

THE main problem with today's pvp revolves around factions. Seriously nobody wants to get ganked but it's so much worse to try to fight someone in factions only to have more faction players come gank. It's bad enough there's the stat timer but you also have to stay logged in rendering your game time useless for 20min. The faction armor still has its advantages so yeah some people want to do it.

And the bracelet makes it even worse by allowing up to 10 binded characters to go to the binded character, wherever they are (following the regular recall rules...), on the fly. This way, as long as a player has guildmates online at the same time, if attacked they can just call for help and with the bracelet their buddies can come and gank the attacker.

 

[Vexxed]

A Few points.......

1) You'll NEVER get an accurate "game mechanic" that actually works to balance weather 2 characters would be an "EVEN" fight. Don't even try.... There are too many factors involved. Imagine asking those knowledgeable about PvP to explain how such a system would work in say 3 paragraphs... LoL good luck accomplishing that let alone getting Developers to implement a working system in game.

2) Your quote about Powerscrolls

It helped a small minority of players in the game to become extremely wealthy, but it did not help the game since it did not really help populate PvP areas, it actually made them even emptier.....

You don't PvP Popps so I'll simply say your WRONG about powerscrols. Sure well run guilds made lots of $$$ no doubt, but back in the day powerscrolls were the MAJOR source of PvP & I'm very much glad they were put in the game the way they were. Also, on a side note. PvPer's in general will pay ANY price to have a leg up against an opponent. Imagine a guy that's whooped you up good EVERY time you've fought the last 2 weeks. Ask yourself if that FIGHT is why you play UO do you really think there's any amount of gold I wouldn't spend to finally crush that opponent? The answer is NO... lol

3) Unbalanced Fights.... I will agree that it can get old. It's really a matter of feeling like you've got a chance though. I'll go fight 4 v 1 & as long
as instant unavoidable death isn't assured, but when its a forgone conclusion I'll taunt my opponent instead or mix it up & try to bait them into a different situation which isn't certain death for me. The problem is that UO's been out for so long EVERYONE that PvPs really does understand almost every aspect of how to be "LAME" in PvP heh. Meaning..... Say your brave enough to try a 4 v 1 yet the 4 people will do nothing but sit around a dismounter & risk nothing unless you have ZERO chance of escape etc. Not really sure how to fix aspects like this. Anyway, all that comes to mind is perhaps some sort of record when PvP occurs so that you can VIEW who's the BRAVE & who's NOT heh.

 

[Picus at the office]

Popps needs to PvP before posting improvement ideas. The last thing I want to see is more "enhancements" like the faction fix that crushed pvp on nearly every shard or super great ideas like arena's that no one wanted/uses/asked for.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I thought about it a lot and personally, whether right or wrong, I came to the conclusion that the reason why most players stay away from PvP is because they think they are not competitive for the fights and hardly have a chance at surviving combat. Hence, why bother participating at all ?

That is why I think that the root of the problem is ensuring that uneven fights cannot happen any longer which means bye bye ganking and one hit kills from uber powerfull attackers at the expense of under powered defenders.

I often hear the argument that people prefer PvP to PvM because of the challenges against a human opponent which no computer controlled NPC can match. Well, the challenge exists, at least as I see it, only as long as the 2 parties confronting have moreless the same combat power. If one of the parties involved exceeds in modifiers/skills, where is the challenge ??

Part of the problem then is that attitude. 15 years ago my friends and I were the same way. We never wanted to fight the best guild, it seemed as though they never lose. Then two of us shot one guy with heavy x bows and the guy died. From there we realized they were very killable. We started fighting them more. Shooting one guy in the face changed my out look on pvp and my attitude. If you think you're going to lose and you're afraid of getting killed in a game, you're never going to improve. It changed everything and we realized we were much better than them in every aspect and they were no longer the best guild.

Typically the people ganking are the players that are less skillful. It's kind of ironic they are so afraid to fight they only want to pvp if they have the numbers in their favor. In a sense they are holding themselves back. Also what 1 hit kills?

Why is the defender under powered? I use to enjoy playing the anti pk when reds were the easy way out[when aos first came out for example].

It's not an argument, it's a fact. No NPC is as smart as a player. The only reason pvm can have *some* difficulty is creatures hitting for absurd damage and having 100k hp.

So a player that took his licks and practiced shouldn't get to pvp? I think that's absurd why should someone be punished for having a keen eye in pvp, reacting faster, and being more skilled? Most of the top pvpers are the few people that will fight out numbered and not in a zerg. From this mentality and pvping like that it will force them to be better to over come the odds. At that point why should they be penalized because most people won't be in this "10%"? Makes no sense to me. I've always felt if you want to be better you need to fight the best to improve. If you can't improve or come up with a creative way and want to take your ball and go home, well that's on you.

When there was Fel only you didn't have that option. It was fight for what you want, or know your farming spot ect. will be taken. Tram has made people weak imho.

 

[Lord Frodo]

A Few points.......

1) You'll NEVER get an accurate "game mechanic" that actually works to balance weather 2 characters would be an "EVEN" fight. Don't even try.... There are too many factors involved. Imagine asking those knowledgeable about PvP to explain how such a system would work in say 3 paragraphs... LoL good luck accomplishing that let alone getting Developers to implement a working system in game.

Anyone remember this game "Dungeon Runners"

PvP
NCsoft has introduced a PvP world where players can travel to the town of Pwnston and engage in single duels or group duels with other players. Each character starts off with a PvP ranking of 1500 and this number changes according to duel outcomes. Players can engage in single or group pvp combat and each side may have up to 5 players. The difficulty of the match is also scaled according to the ratio of the group sizes. For instance, a single player facing off against a team of two players would be at 100% power while the other team's two players would be toned down in damage and armour. Depending on your performance you may receive King's coins which can be spent on items.

2) Your quote about Powerscrolls

You don't PvP Popps so I'll simply say your WRONG about powerscrols. Sure well run guilds made lots of $$$ no doubt, but back in the day powerscrolls were the MAJOR source of PvP & I'm very much glad they were put in the game the way they were. Also, on a side note. PvPer's in general will pay ANY price to have a leg up against an opponent. Imagine a guy that's whooped you up good EVERY time you've fought the last 2 weeks. Ask yourself if that FIGHT is why you play UO do you really think there's any amount of gold I wouldn't spend to finally crush that opponent? The answer is NO... lol

Now this made me laugh because Popps was right and you are so WRONG.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Popps needs to PvP before posting improvement ideas. The last thing I want to see is more "enhancements" like the faction fix that crushed pvp on nearly every shard or super great ideas like arena's that no one wanted/uses/asked for.

Why because he is right and the only way you will PvP is because of the goodies. And you do not have to PvP to see that the only way you ever PvPed is because of the rewards you get from killing PvMers after they do a spawn.

 

[popps]

So a player that took his licks and practiced shouldn't get to pvp? I think that's absurd why should someone be punished for having a keen eye in pvp, reacting faster, and being more skilled? Most of the top pvpers are the few people that will fight out numbered and not in a zerg. From this mentality and pvping like that it will force them to be better to over come the odds. At that point why should they be penalized because most people won't be in this "10%"? Makes no sense to me. I've always felt if you want to be better you need to fight the best to improve. If you can't improve or come up with a creative way and want to take your ball and go home, well that's on you.

Reality sometimes differs from theory. What might sound as great in theory sometimes might conflict with reality. The reality I learned, over playing Ultima Online over the years, is that those players who keep on trying after losing fight after fight after fight to get better, are a very tiny minority. The vast majority on whose subscription fees the game needs to keep going, either does not have the time or the desire to insist and insist spending their time until they get to match the best PvPers out there.

Bottom line is, is my thinking, that in the end PvP dies out for lack of sufficient players because the difficulties are too much and too many that most players are deterred from trying.

Either PvP is made easier to attract more participants (and I thought the concept of "balanced out" fights could be a way to make PvP easier), or, is my thinking, it will hardly ever get better, but just remain a niche aspect of the game for a handfull of players, not sufficient, besides, to keep Ultima Online going with their subscription fees. I mean, in 15 Years, even at the beginning of Powerscrolls in felucca which were much needed by all players, PvP has always been participated by a fraction of the players' population.

This should be enough to think that all of the approaches to better PvP over these 15 years have been the wrong ones, perhaps it is time to then change the type of approach to bring more players into PvP ?

If something did not work for so many years to replenish the PvP areas, why should it work now ???

 

[ShadowTrauma]

First of all I want to thank Popps for starting up this topic and avoiding pitting the facets against each other, in addition to offering a different perspective on PvP issues. As others have stated it would be very difficult to implement it "fairly" or accurately, but I see the angle you are comming from and can appreciate it. You have made me look at the PvP issue from a different perspective than I have been recently. Hopefully after a bit more thought I can weigh in.

When there was Fel only you didn't have that option. It was fight for what you want, or know your farming spot ect. will be taken. Tram has made people weak imho.

In my opinion these are the type of statements we need to strongly avoid. I understand that it is your opinion and I will not take issue with it further, but just want to state that your post was a good read, had some strong points, was well constructed, but because of the statements at the end it was weakened by opening this discussion up to the kind of "opinion wars" that have locked previous threads. I just wish you had stayed with your strong facts and examples instead, I would hate to see this well intentioned thread go the same way as the others.

 

[Picus at the office]

Anyone remember this game "Dungeon Runners"

PvP
NCsoft has introduced a PvP world where players can travel to the town of Pwnston and engage in single duels or group duels with other players. Each character starts off with a PvP ranking of 1500 and this number changes according to duel outcomes. Players can engage in single or group pvp combat and each side may have up to 5 players. The difficulty of the match is also scaled according to the ratio of the group sizes. For instance, a single player facing off against a team of two players would be at 100% power while the other team's two players would be toned down in damage and armour. Depending on your performance you may receive King's coins which can be spent on items.

Now this made me laugh because Popps was right and you are so WRONG.

Wow, good game that closed it's doors after three years? Clearly no one either played or something else was wrong.

As for scrolls, yes some people made buckets of money with myself being one of them but like everyone else has said nothing stopped any player from joining in the cash cow. All you had to do was show up and fight for a few weeks at brit gate way back then. You didn't even have to win a single fight and some group would have taken you under thier wings. I allowed piles of people into my guilds just to have fodder for the cannons and, amazingly, some of those people turned out to be great pvpers and others turned out to be great players in other aspects of the game.

All said I suspect that from postings that some anti-pvp people have made I suspect that they might have been kicked out due to constant complaining....tough luck.

The old story of scrolls is done.

 

[FrejaSP]

I would hate to see PvP be much like fighting monsters. Fighting other players are much more fun, even I die alot and very rarely win the fight.
Maybe it's because, I'm a woman that dying in a fight don't ruin my day. I don't have to win on any cost and I don't run in more expensive gear, than my crafter easy can replace.
On Siege, we have alot players, who never PvP but they do get PK'ed, it do not stop them from playing.

In old days, on Atlantic, I hunted in Coveteus. I did not get my loot home each time. I learned fast, not to stay to long between visiting the bank.
Until we got AoS, I was able to stay alive most of the times I was attacked and it was not always me that decided to leave the fight.

When I started to PvP = trying to fight back, it was the reds, who learned me about potions, bandages and it was more important to keep heal up and heal asap. When fighting monsters, I did not need to heal before I was low in heal and I could just leave the monster to heal. It do not work, when fighting players, special if you have more than one attacking. A red friend told me, if dead, I would never win a fight, so stay alive and if with friends, keep eyes on friends heal too.

Many PvM think, they are powerful, they can kill the hardest monsters, but it is a different tactics they need to learn to fight players.

 

[FrejaSP]

I do believe we could need a kind of duel system, where you could challenge one or even two players to a duel. Make it the one losing the fight will drop dead but can't be looted. If 1vs 1 fight, he will auto rez after 10 sec with fuld heal and auto regain his items.

If a 1 vs 2 duel and one of the 2 die, he will stay dead until the fight is over or cancelled or at least not be able to reentre the fight

 

[Berethrain]

I do not think that baits are the solution to PvP and the history of Powerscrolls in Ultima Online is a prime example of this. It ended up with Guilds monopolizing the spawns, making enormous amounts of gold which allowed them to buy better gear and weaponry and so become further unbeatable and kept all other players away from Felucca forcing them to spend enormous amounts of gold to buy the powerscrolls that they wanted.

New content is always an incentive or they would have stopped putting it out a long time ago. We're not really asking you to come to fel for any of the new content, nor do you have to. Would we like to see more people try pvp? Sure, it's more fun for us in the long run. But when that doesn't happen, give us something to grind on for a little while.

The other side we hear now is "well it's not fair people who don't like to pvp have to go to fel for the same item." It's simply not true. Everyone can go to fel much like everyone can take up fishing. I have no interest in fishing, but that doesn't mean it's not fair because I'm not getting the same items from it because I choose not to.

It helped a small minority of players in the game to become extremely wealthy, but it did not help the game since it did not really help populate PvP areas, it actually made them even emptier.....

Yet everyone benefits from powerscrolls don't they? Tell me, are all your characters capped at 100 skill points? I doubt this. Just because others made a profit from scrolls much like people making a profit off peerless doesn't mean it was bad.

I actually think that powerscrolls in Felucca hurt Ultima Online and are one of the reasons of subscription losses in the game. I think that some players might have been deterred by the high prices of powerscrolls (because of the monopolies) and did not want to invest the vast amount of time needed to make the tens of millions needed to buy powerscrolls to outfit their characters, and so they preferred to just leave UO for other games.

I doubt it. If they left only for the availability of powerscrolls, then chances are they weren't really having fun anyways.

Just replacing powerscrolls with some other item would only replace that situation with the bigger problem that now the population is scarcer and to further loose players deterred by new, needed but unreachable items only spawning in Felucca and monopolized by few Guilds, might be too much for Ultima Online to survive to it. Too much a risk to even try it, IMHO.

Adding more things to fel makes the population scarcer? No, have you been to fel lately? You are reaching for reasons that really aren't true. Besides we want this for the people in fel, if others want to cry unfair lets go down the list of content for pvp and fel vs trammel. We're not saying it's unfair, we just want our own.

I thought about it a lot and personally, whether right or wrong, I came to the conclusion that the reason why most players stay away from PvP is because they think they are not competitive for the fights and hardly have a chance at surviving combat. Hence, why bother participating at all ?

No one who pvps now started off without dieing. There is not a single person who was an instantly amazing at pvp. If they don't want to die or pvp, that's up to them but don't hold it against what few of us are left.

I often hear the argument that people prefer PvP to PvM because of the challenges against a human opponent which no computer controlled NPC can match. Well, the challenge exists, at least as I see it, only as long as the 2 parties confronting have moreless the same combat power. If one of the parties involved exceeds in modifiers/skills, where is the challenge ??

Because you don't always win with better mods and or skills. There is a lot more than you give credit for but is based primarily off because you've not really given it a chance to begin with.

 

[Cetric]

I don't like to pvm, should i be able to get a slither from killing players?

Same mentality flipped around is it not?


PVP whether we like it or not, needs incentives. PVP has dwindled over time because of this, there haven't been major incentives since power scrolls, and sort of replicas, were introduced. Factions was good for a time but once everyone got the "outnumber them or don't fight mentality, or sticking ninja on every template for the sake of running away" because of stat loss, that smacked it pretty good.



Tram players come to fel on their sampires and cry all the time, learn to come with a group. do a primeval lich spawn while defending it from the small contingent of reds that raid you. It will be more satisfying than killing some monsters with poor AI, i can guarantee it. Die, res, try again, not only will it open your eyes to a different aspect of the game you play, you just might like it.

I have a sampire, i can understand why some people think dieing to players easily is upsetting when you can take a sampire and just stand there hitting the same button over and over for 5 minutes against any creature in the game without fear of dieing. Maybe you shouldn't play the game on easy mode all the time. Live a little, add some risk, enjoy the reward, and maybe, just maybe, you will find it more satisfying in the long run. Most players that pvp didn't become good over night. I've seen some big time trammies in my time turn into some very good pvpers

 

[Berethrain]

That is what they are not understanding. They think because they don't like to go to fel to get every item in the game, that it is unfair because they might die or won't get it because they refuse to go to fel to get it.

That's why you see many trammel players asking for powerscrolls in trammel.


Ok, we'll give you power scrolls if you give us everything else from trammel that we don't have.

No wammy no wammy big bux big bux.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

First of all I want to thank Popps for starting up this topic and avoiding pitting the facets against each other, in addition to offering a different perspective on PvP issues. As others have stated it would be very difficult to implement it "fairly" or accurately, but I see the angle you are comming from and can appreciate it. You have made me look at the PvP issue from a different perspective than I have been recently. Hopefully after a bit more thought I can weigh in.



In my opinion these are the type of statements we need to strongly avoid. I understand that it is your opinion and I will not take issue with it further, but just want to state that your post was a good read, had some strong points, was well constructed, but because of the statements at the end it was weakened by opening this discussion up to the kind of "opinion wars" that have locked previous threads. I just wish you had stayed with your strong facts and examples instead, I would hate to see this well intentioned thread go the same way as the others.

The system described is right out of wow with their arenas. For the most part you are paired up against people with similar *ratings*.

I ended with that for a reason. It ties in together with how I feel. A lot of players that weren't submerged in fel when that was your only choice don't have that mentality. So I do believe it has made those not fel based weak. A lot of people don't have the same mentality and I feel as though they probably have their friends saying "Don't go to Fel no matter what". If they listen and don't try out pvp or attempt to get better how could someone improve?

The reason I say this is because if you played pre aos then you know you really had no choice. pvp was all over the place. You could actively go to many hotspots as they were abundant, but also just about any where you went to hunt as well had pvp. It had factions, order/chaos, warring guilds. You could find these fights all over it wasn't just towns, I remember being at the bone wall training skill and just see a massive fighting rolling through there.

I truly believe the mentality of a lot of people is the problem. Do you think an excellent boxer is going to improve beating unranked boxers all day? I feel as though it would diminish said persons skills. Yes they will beat the novice boxer, but when they go to fight someone who is actually skilled again it would probably be an up hill battle. This was just an arbitrary example.

 

[Tanivar]

A simple solution to PvP being so imbalanced would be to return it to as it was pre-AoS. Everyone would have cheap and easy to obtain GM Crafter gear with much the same abilities and it would let whoever was the better fighter win. As for 6 on 1 gank attacks, have the game balance the battle by lowering the gank squad members total dps (damage per second) and defense numbers to match the lone targets dps and defense numbers. It would even provide a nice long battle due to the matching numbers. Imagine 6 pkers going after a normal clothes miner type armed with just a shovel. The miner would be doing about 5 or 6 points of damage per hit, each ganker about 1 point of damage per hit. No one would die quickly and the fight wouldn't be the short ones they are now due to the uber gear effects. You get looted and lose all your gear? No Problem. Replacing gear no longer takes ages and costs a fortune. You can easily replace it with your mule crafter in a few minutes. PvP problems solved.

 

[CovenantX]

I do believe we could need a kind of duel system, where you could challenge one or even two players to a duel. Make it the one losing the fight will drop dead but can't be looted. If 1vs 1 fight, he will auto rez after 10 sec with fuld heal and auto regain his items.

If a 1 vs 2 duel and one of the 2 die, he will stay dead until the fight is over or cancelled or at least not be able to reentre the fight

As much as I would absolutely love to see dueling come back, It won't be anywhere near as good as it use to be, Unless things like Poisonings-"free-Cure" & Casting focus were done differently or changed.

Dueling is or "Use to be" a test/competition of player-skill vs another player, what Poisoning & Casting focus do is include "chance/RNG" into that, and it hurts dueling. <-- This is Also why some "PvPers" would say playing a Dexer is Skill-less, It's not, but mage vs mage involves a lot more practice/experience to compete with each other. (timing use to be the most important thing in mage-dueling, restore it)

 

[CovenantX]

A simple solution to PvP being so imbalanced would be to return it to as it was pre-AoS. Everyone would have cheap and easy to obtain GM Crafter gear with much the same abilities and it would let whoever was the better fighter win. As for 6 on 1 gank attacks, have the game balance the battle by lowering the gank squad members total dps (damage per second) and defense numbers to match the lone targets dps and defense numbers. It would even provide a nice long battle due to the matching numbers. Imagine 6 pkers going after a normal clothes miner type armed with just a shovel. The miner would be doing about 5 or 6 points of damage per hit, each ganker about 1 point of damage per hit. No one would die quickly and the fight wouldn't be the short ones they are now due to the uber gear effects. You get looted and lose all your gear? No Problem. Replacing gear no longer takes ages and costs a fortune. You can easily replace it with your mule crafter in a few minutes. PvP problems solved.

As a pvper myself, to me there are really only a few reasons PvP isn't as fun as it once was.

1. Skills, spells, weapons & item-properties being overpowered/imbalanced.. which is being looked at.

2. Lack of content that create reason to pvp. "power-scrolls" come to mind. because what power-scrolls did, was... yes it did force people from tram to go to fel, but it also helped a great deal in forcing people to "learn" pvp, which is the positive point of it only being available in fel.

3. Reduced player-base.

 

[FrejaSP]

As a pvper myself, to me there are really only a few reasons PvP isn't as fun as it once was.

1. Skills, spells, weapons & item-properties being overpowered/imbalanced.. which is being looked at.

2. Lack of content that create reason to pvp. "power-scrolls" come to mind. because what power-scrolls did, was... yes it did force people from tram to go to fel, but it also helped a great deal in forcing people to "learn" pvp, which is the positive point of it only being available in fel.

3. Reduced player-base.

On Siege, power-scrolls are a reason to PvP but I much better like the smaller fights, when attacked anywhere else in the game. The reason could be, the Shame loot in your bag, just a raid of your player town or you just run in a PK, who just can't resist trying to kill you.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

As a pvper myself, to me there are really only a few reasons PvP isn't as fun as it once was.

1. Skills, spells, weapons & item-properties being overpowered/imbalanced.. which is being looked at.

2. Lack of content that create reason to pvp. "power-scrolls" come to mind. because what power-scrolls did, was... yes it did force people from tram to go to fel, but it also helped a great deal in forcing people to "learn" pvp, which is the positive point of it only being available in fel.

3. Reduced player-base.

I would be happy even with just guilds declaring war on each other. I don't care about scrolls replicas ect. Even without stat, and with just losing some consumables I dont think a lot of people would want to participate. There are very few who want to pvp for the sake of pvp. Most want to get their scrolls ect and get out of dodge without a fight..

 

[Tanivar]

...it also helped a great deal in forcing people to "learn" pvp, which is the positive point of it only being available in fel.

PvPers and PKers may think it's a positive point because having more targets is fun for them, but forcing a player to do something he doesn't consider fun is never a good idea from that players viewpoint. He might decide to go elsewhere where he doesn't have to deal with the bull and can just have fun playing a game.

Recall what Tram was created to stop?

 

[Speaking the Truth]

PvPers and PKers may think it's a positive point because having more targets is fun for them, but forcing a player to do something he doesn't consider fun is never a good idea from that players viewpoint. He might decide to go elsewhere where he doesn't have to deal with the bull and can just have fun playing a game.

Recall what Tram was created to stop?

Forcing? I don't believe anyone is forced to do anything. There are no guns put to peoples head. They have the option, what they do or don't do it up to them.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

A simple solution to PvP being so imbalanced would be to return it to as it was pre-AoS. Everyone would have cheap and easy to obtain GM Crafter gear with much the same abilities and it would let whoever was the better fighter win. As for 6 on 1 gank attacks, have the game balance the battle by lowering the gank squad members total dps (damage per second) and defense numbers to match the lone targets dps and defense numbers. It would even provide a nice long battle due to the matching numbers. Imagine 6 pkers going after a normal clothes miner type armed with just a shovel. The miner would be doing about 5 or 6 points of damage per hit, each ganker about 1 point of damage per hit. No one would die quickly and the fight wouldn't be the short ones they are now due to the uber gear effects. You get looted and lose all your gear? No Problem. Replacing gear no longer takes ages and costs a fortune. You can easily replace it with your mule crafter in a few minutes. PvP problems solved.

This is not a simple solution as they won't make a pre aos shard. Also I dont like the reducing damage even though I am always on underdog team for number of players in a group. I[as an example] already do well when I'm out numbered.

If these players who rely on ganks had their damage scaled down they would never kill me. That would ruin things even more as a lot of the worse players will ONLY fight when they have more. Taking their one positive away would ruin pvp for them and make fels population dwindle even more.

 

[popps]

Adding more things to fel makes the population scarcer? No, have you been to fel lately? You are reaching for reasons that really aren't true. Besides we want this for the people in fel, if others want to cry unfair lets go down the list of content for pvp and fel vs trammel. We're not saying it's unfair, we just want our own.

As long as it is items not needed for more competitive playing like Powerscrolls were and the new 5 stats scroll is, I am fine with new content added to Felucca. But it needs not to be anything that PvMers might have the need to get to improve their characters to become more competitive.

Bottom line is, I am ok with new content added to Felucca exclusively as long as it is nothing to make characters more powerfull.

The content added to Trammel is also obtained by Felucca players especially now with the pardons. It is not the other way around unless at the expense of large sums of gold as powerscrolls taught.

 

[Cetric]

PvPers and PKers may think it's a positive point because having more targets is fun for them, but forcing a player to do something he doesn't consider fun is never a good idea from that players viewpoint. He might decide to go elsewhere where he doesn't have to deal with the bull and can just have fun playing a game.

Recall what Tram was created to stop?

I am forced to pvm and craft to get gear to compete in pvp. Should i whine and say that those items deemed fairly neccesary in pvp should just "appear" in my bank box? Why does no one see it from the other perspective. Have an open mind...

 

[Berethrain]

The content added to Trammel is also obtained by Felucca players especially now with the pardons. It is not the other way around unless at the expense of large sums of gold as powerscrolls taught.

Trammel content has always been obtainable since we can make more than one character. Same goes for vice versa.

It doesn't have to be an item to make fel an incentive, just something with plot. We wanted factions fixed for this reason but that has all gone out the door. They tried, props to Mesanna for being the most recent effort. Some good things some bad things.

Too many people got their hand into the cookie jar and all that's left are crumbs.

 

[Lythos-]

Bottom line is, I am ok with new content added to Felucca exclusively as long as it is nothing to make characters more powerfull.

The content added to Trammel is also obtained by Felucca players especially now with the pardons. It is not the other way around unless at the expense of large sums of gold as powerscrolls taught.

You totally missed the point. It's been said over and over again yes fel players are forced to go to tram. Do we want to be? NO. Just the same as Tram players shouldn't be forced to go to fel. Just because Fel got powerscrolls does not excuse the fact the whole facet has been neglected since AoS.

We want a version of Doom. We want a version of the underworld. I'd die to be able to recall to my fav spot in Shame instead of taking 5min to dungeon crawl through the nasties. Powerscrolls were ALL we had in terms of things to do.

It should be equal plain and simple don't you think? Well there should be a slightly better loot chance due to the whole we may have to fight for our life and all.

 

[CovenantX]

Recall what Tram was created to stop?

Trammel, IMO was NOT created to Stop PvP/Pking, If it was meant to "Stop" pvp/pk, they would have just changed the existing fel (the only facet that Did exist) into Trammel, and would have done completely away with Fel all together.

It was an attempt to Reduce "Griefing", has it worked ? Well that is debatable, I would say, there is MORE griefing done in Trammel, than in fel... because in Trammel you can't do anything about it, other than page GMs. There is evidence in recent posts regarding this years Zombie-Skeleton Halloween event & The Despise dungeon re-vamp that backs this up.

 

[Vexxed]

Trammel, IMO was NOT created to Stop PvP/Pking, If it was meant to "Stop" pvp/pk, they would have just changed the existing fel (the only facet that Did exist) into Trammel, and would have done completely away with Fel all together.

It was an attempt to Reduce "Griefing", has it worked ? Well that is debatable, I would say, there is MORE griefing done in Trammel, than in fel... because in Trammel you can't do anything about it, other than page GMs. There is evidence in recent posts regarding this years Zombie-Skeleton Halloween event & The Despise dungeon re-vamp that backs this up.

Griefting in TRAM is far worse than in FEL imo... I honestly rarely take my sampire out unless I have too, but when I do it always amazes me how BADLY people take it if I do something as simple as refusing to take turns killing something. I mean LOL !!! It's a fact that there's no requirement to share in Trammel yet if you don't boy oh boy do people get mouthy. I've had people threaten my mother / child etc it was funny. I told them that if they were that mad I'd switch over and go pop a Despise & they could get some payback! Very rarely does someone actually take me up on it though. They'll SAY a ton of things which shouldn't be said, but actually having accountability for those words in FEL is a fearsome thing heh.

 

[KLOMP]

a special PvP engine that assessed the "power" of characters both evaluating their total skills and their gear/weaponry and allow only a slight inbalance (say 10% plus or minus ?) between the attacker and the defender (be them 2 individuals or 2 groups).

I think you are drastically, drastically underrating the incredible difficulty that would be involved in doing this in a balanced and unexploitable way. That's even if we accept the premise that "fair" fights are in the best interest of Felucca in the first place.

Remember, this game does not have discrete "levels" that can be easily compared. The system you describe would need to decide, for example, whether having 20 more points of parry skill is better or worse than having one more point of FCR. That's the sort of question that doesn't even begin to become answerable until you take templates into account, and the system would need to answer dozens and dozens of such questions constantly and in a fair way.

Consider also that doing it even slightly incorrectly, making it even a little exploitable or unbalanced, would actively ruin PVP and damage the game.

Tram players come to fel on their sampires and cry all the time, learn to come with a group. do a primeval lich spawn while defending it from the small contingent of reds that raid you. It will be more satisfying than killing some monsters with poor AI, i can guarantee it. Die, res, try again, not only will it open your eyes to a different aspect of the game you play, you just might like it.

This game is 15 years old and members of the Fel community have been saying this for 12 of them. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't going to. The Tram players are never going to come.

 

[Cetric]

Griefting in TRAM is far worse than in FEL imo... I honestly rarely take my sampire out unless I have too, but when I do it always amazes me how BADLY people take it if I do something as simple as refusing to take turns killing something. I mean LOL !!! It's a fact that there's no requirement to share in Trammel yet if you don't boy oh boy do people get mouthy. I've had people threaten my mother / child etc it was funny. I told them that if they were that mad I'd switch over and go pop a Despise & they could get some payback! Very rarely does someone actually take me up on it though. They'll SAY a ton of things which shouldn't be said, but actually having accountability for those words in FEL is a fearsome thing heh.

lol thats hilarious. True but hilarious. Someone talks like that in fel and they get slammed.

 

[KLOMP]

Griefting in TRAM is far worse than in FEL imo... I honestly rarely take my sampire out unless I have too, but when I do it always amazes me how BADLY people take it if I do something as simple as refusing to take turns killing something. I mean LOL !!! It's a fact that there's no requirement to share in Trammel yet if you don't boy oh boy do people get mouthy. I've had people threaten my mother / child etc it was funny. I told them that if they were that mad I'd switch over and go pop a Despise & they could get some payback! Very rarely does someone actually take me up on it though. They'll SAY a ton of things which shouldn't be said, but actually having accountability for those words in FEL is a fearsome thing heh.

Why you should go and farm monsters in Fel then, where the open PVP environment would ensure civility and respect. Give that a try for a few weeks and let us know how it goes. I can't imagine why you haven't already. After all, anyone who enters General Chat knows very well that the risk and danger of Felucca has bred a community steeped in mutual respect and good manners.

 

[Viper09]

I think you are drastically, drastically underrating the incredible difficulty that would be involved in doing this in a balanced and unexploitable way. That's even if we accept the premise that "fair" fights are in the best interest of Felucca in the first place.

Remember, this game does not have discrete "levels" that can be easily compared. The system you describe would need to decide, for example, whether having 20 more points of parry skill is better or worse than having one more point of FCR. That's the sort of question that doesn't even begin to become answerable until you take templates into account, and the system would need to answer dozens and dozens of such questions constantly and in a fair way.

Consider also that doing it even slightly incorrectly, making it even a little exploitable or unbalanced, would actively ruin PVP and damage the game.

A critical fact that is often overlooked. There are too many variables in PvP to do anything close to what is being proposed here. Because of the numerous variables, any attempt at creating this type of system would likely destroy PvP and damage other aspects of this game.

 

[Cetric]

Why you should go and farm monsters in Fel then, where the open PVP environment would ensure civility and respect. Give that a try for a few weeks and let us know how it goes. I can't imagine why you haven't already. After all, anyone who enters General Chat knows very well that the risk and danger of Felucca has bred a community steeped in mutual respect and good manners.

When i do shame/cove on occassion, i do not enter tram. I killed a tamer on my sampire once when he decided him and his dragon would have more fun at the energy vortex spawn than I would, so he tossed the drag my way. You dunno what ur missin'. Its quieter, and the loot tables are supposedly better.

My night was complete when that tamer got bladed staffed in the face.

 

[A Zombie]

*moans* views from a simple undead nobody here. (and this is just my opinion, not fact) The reason many of us avoid pvp (not fel I still play in fel about 25% of the time) is the simple immaturity and attitudes of those who claim to be "real pvpers" I'm not a good pvper, never will be, but I don't need someone telling me to delete my account every time I get killed 4 on 1. Hint: you don't need 4 to kill me anyway. Maybe, just maybe, if the guild leaders of larger pvp guilds would be willing to police their own. Honestly it makes no sense, you claim you want more targets, more ppl to kill, then drive the average gamer right out of pvp with constant verbal assaults. In a way many of these so called pvpers are digging their own graves. Like I said I'm not anti pvp, you want to kill me have at it. Odds are very good you will be successful. Treat me like a human being and guess what? I'll come back and die again. The devs can only do so much, I think much of the onus here belongs on the players themselves. However, it is a choice. Everyone who plays has a right to their own playstyle. Just my .02

 

[Lady Michelle]

Griefting in TRAM is far worse than in FEL imo... I honestly rarely take my sampire out unless I have too, but when I do it always amazes me how BADLY people take it if I do something as simple as refusing to take turns killing something. I mean LOL !!! It's a fact that there's no requirement to share in Trammel yet if you don't boy oh boy do people get mouthy. I've had people threaten my mother / child etc it was funny. I told them that if they were that mad I'd switch over and go pop a Despise & they could get some payback! Very rarely does someone actually take me up on it though. They'll SAY a ton of things which shouldn't be said, but actually having accountability for those words in FEL is a fearsome thing heh.

LOL Now I wouldn't stand around being mouthy that would be wasting my time. Its not like you own the spot in the first place, and its not like you could kill me cuz its trammel. Neener Neener Id just wait til the next one spawns and attack it. Plus I would ignore your griefy remarks. Just kidding but I could do that I see someone at a spot I just recall to the next one.

 

[Cetric]

*moans* views from a simple undead nobody here. (and this is just my opinion, not fact) The reason many of us avoid pvp (not fel I still play in fel about 25% of the time) is the simple immaturity and attitudes of those who claim to be "real pvpers" I'm not a good pvper, never will be, but I don't need someone telling me to delete my account every time I get killed 4 on 1. Hint: you don't need 4 to kill me anyway. Maybe, just maybe, if the guild leaders of larger pvp guilds would be willing to police their own. Honestly it makes no sense, you claim you want more targets, more ppl to kill, then drive the average gamer right out of pvp with constant verbal assaults. In a way many of these so called pvpers are digging their own graves. Like I said I'm not anti pvp, you want to kill me have at it. Odds are very good you will be successful. Treat me like a human being and guess what? I'll come back and die again. The devs can only do so much, I think much of the onus here belongs on the players themselves. However, it is a choice. Everyone who plays has a right to their own playstyle. Just my .02

There are the unfortunate ones out there that do that. There are those that do that in ever portion of the game though, no one has an aswer for it. Some people are just D bags

 

[A Zombie]

There are the unfortunate ones out there that do that. There are those that do that in ever portion of the game though, no one has an aswer for it. Some people are just D bags

*nods* I agree completely. Its just such a waste UO PVP is truly unique, and I know many players who were so disgusted with those d-bags after their 1st few ventures into pvp that they will never again attempt it. In Tram its easy, just use ignore. (or in my case just don't use gen chat)

I do spend enough time in Fel to realize that this behavior is more the exception than the rule, but for many perception is reality, and initial impressions can ruin pvp for many

 

[Good Grief]

Maybe, just maybe, if the guild leaders of larger pvp guilds would be willing to police their own. Honestly it makes no sense, you claim you want more targets, more ppl to kill, then drive the average gamer right out of pvp with constant verbal assaults. In a way many of these so called pvpers are digging their own graves.

So true

Never ceases to amaze me how many PvPers claim to want fair fights and more people to PvP, yet their attitudes over the last 12 years are completely the opposite. IMO most hardcore PvPers only care about killing anyone and everyone no matter what it takes. This is why almost everyone cheats, runs speeder programs and scripts. Sure you'll get every PvPer on here claiming they don't cheat but the fact is that the vast majority of them are running at least a speeder program and probably the other popular script program.

Between the win at any cost attitude and the way they treat anyone who in their opinion is not good. I have no sympathy for the fact that their playstyle is dead.