Metal/Plate Armor Ideas, Proposals, and Pitfalls

[GalenKnighthawke]

The team seems to be really into boosting plate and/or other forms of metal armor (they have mentioned it about 3 times now, twice in addresses or letters to us and judging by pictures and word of mouth at least once at the party).

So let's consolidate the various ideas.

The trick is to give plate or metal armor in general a boost without nerfing something else; without making it the only kind of armor worth having. (They wish, it would appear, to avoid what happened when the "new leathers" were introduced years ago, when armor made from the new leathers quickly overtook all other forms of armor due to the great AR without a dex penalty.)

In voice chat the other day my alliance-mates put forth what they described as the most-often stated idea, and that involved boosting the base total resists of metal armor to be on par with leathers and (presumably) wood.

I don't craft so I may be expressing this poorly or misunderstanding it. (If so, someone will correct me, I'm confident.) But it seems that the metal armors come with lower resists naturally, thus messing with one's ability to Imbue them properly later on. So while you could Imbue up a worthwhile metal armor suit, it's more-difficult and your base pieces have to start from a lesser position.

Am I understanding this right?

If so, that explains some of the frustration some folks had with me when I brought up the (potential) awesomeness of Plate pieces from a Valorite Hammer. We were using different metrics. Sure you could use the highest-end crafting tool in the game and you might get something awesome. But if you want the certainty of Imbuing you start from a disadvantaged position.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Here's the idea I've long thrown out there: Make a PvM-only damage absorption for wearing an entire suit of non-meddable armor. Make it on-par not with Swamp Dragon Barding but with Chief P's Swamp Dragon.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

And here's a pitfall: Samurai Plate.

They have to take great care to not give any metal armor boost they come up with to Samurai Plate because that usually already comes with a significant bonus when GM crafter: Mage armor as a free property. (That's why Samurai Plate was in such wide use, I think, before Imbuing. Craft a Valorite Hammer Samurai Plate piece and you get Mage Armor free and all the Valorite Hammer bonuses can go into other places. The widespread duping of those Hammers didn't hurt either!)

So they can either remove the mage armor free property thing (some want them to for other reasons, but you know if they do this others will come out of the woodwork and complain). Or they can leave the mage armor thing as the special resident bonus for samurai plate, and give the western-style metal armors another, separate bonus.

Here's a question it might be important to know the answer to: Does the chainmail Samurai helm piece (I forget what it's called) also come with mage armor free?

-Galen's player

 

[Blood Ghoul]

And here's a pitfall: Samurai Plate.

They have to take great care to not give any metal armor boost they come up with to Samurai Plate because that usually already comes with a significant bonus when GM crafter: Mage armor as a free property. (That's why Samurai Plate was in such wide use, I think, before Imbuing. Craft a Valorite Hammer Samurai Plate piece and you get Mage Armor free and all the Valorite Hammer bonuses can go into other places. The widespread duping of those Hammers didn't hurt either!)

So they can either remove the mage armor free property thing (some want them to for other reasons, but you know if they do this others will come out of the woodwork and complain). Or they can leave the mage armor thing as the special resident bonus for samurai plate, and give the western-style metal armors another, separate bonus.

Here's a question it might be important to know the answer to: Does the chainmail Samurai helm piece (I forget what it's called) also come with mage armor free?

-Galen's player

While I am not going to claim to be a great crafter and I cannot log in to check but the "Mage Armor" is not free. It still carries the same imbue weight as if you added it. It just gets applied without needing an imbuer.

I like the idea about damage absorption...but it should be PVM and PVP..but there needs to be a balance.. All the armor needs to have + and - ... We can try and discuss the all the factors but if we look at just full plate you should be slower (weight, Swing Speed,dex penalty, maybe even movement) and maybe in the full plate no magery(All magic) except recall charges from runebooks. A character in full plate mail should be able to take way more damage than someone in leather but deal less damage.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

While I am not going to claim to be a great crafter and I cannot log in to check but the "Mage Armor" is not free. It still carries the same imbue weight as if you added it. It just gets applied without needing an imbuer.

No. I was not talking about Imbuing.

I was talking about runic bonuses.

Remember that I was talking rather specifically about why Samurai Plate was popular before Imbuing. If you use a Valorite Hammer to make Samurai plate you get mage armor and THEN you get the Valorite bonuses on top of that. (Per UO Guide and per talking to crafters.) Hence the popularity.

Mage Armor does indeed count for the Imbuing weight; I also addressed this in my post.

I like the idea about damage absorption...but it should be PVM and PVP..but there needs to be a balance.. All the armor needs to have + and - ... We can try and discuss the all the factors but if we look at just full plate you should be slower (weight, Swing Speed,dex penalty, maybe even movement) and maybe in the full plate no magery(All magic) except recall charges from runebooks. A character in full plate mail should be able to take way more damage than someone in leather but deal less damage.

Something of a misunderstanding about how plate armor was used historically. These guys did not, I can guarantee you, do less damage than did the ones who couldn't afford full plate. And they could move way faster than you think. Plate armor was fitted to the dude wearing it. As long as he didn't suddenly get fat it fit him like an exo-skeleton.

More gameplay-specific it sounds too complex and to add a damage sponge for PvP sounds potentially unbalancing. Anyone remember when swamp dragon barding absorbed PvP damage?

Was a tad crazy.

-Galen's player

 

[Coldren]

I think if you just made it so that:

A) Metal Armor has higher resist caps than leather (As it used to be, since AR was the "Resist", and it went Leather -> Ringmail -> Chainmail -> Plate), say 80 or so at the highest level..

And/Or

B) Give it a higher maximum Imbuing weight, say an additional 50-100 points (Mage armor would still count towards this weight with Samurai armor).

.. You would see a significant boost in it's use. These could scale based on ringmail, chainmail, or plate. They seem like the simplest options to change.

If you wanted to make things more complex, you could start analyzing benefits and penalties as suggested. Maybe leather would have high energy and cold resist caps, but low physical or fire based caps. Plate would be the opposite, etc. But that would be a bit more difficult to juggle, I think, and people would start mixing leather and plate... To hideous-looking effect...

 

[Ashlynn_L]

It just needs to be better in one respect and worse in another, and this should scale across the armour types. The obvious being higher resist caps but at the cost of lower regen caps or whatever is appropriate. There should be trade-offs so that the choice of which type of armour a player chooses becomes a tactical decision rather than there simply being one which everyone picks because it's better which is the situation we have now (hello there, leather).

 

[Merus]

Personally I favor equalizing all armor rather than balancing pieces. I do understand people don't want to see a Mage in full plate, but I would love to get back to what you wear being more about style. Regardless of how they change things trying to "balance" there will always end up with a certain combination being the best, even if it varies slightly between templates... Which leaves everyone looking the same. I would much rather see all armor as medable with equal resist bonuses and let players suit up with pieces that reflect their style. If Bill wants a necro Mage in dragon and bone armor, have at it. If Sally wants a chiv dexxer in ringmail and leather, Booyah! Along those same lines I would love to get and arti "alter" token that would swap the graphic representation to some other item which occupies the same slot... Want a crown of arcane temperament that looks like a bone helm, np!

I miss the days where people looked different!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

No. I was not talking about Imbuing.

I was talking about runic bonuses.

Remember that I was talking rather specifically about why Samurai Plate was popular before Imbuing. If you use a Valorite Hammer to make Samurai plate you get mage armor and THEN you get the Valorite bonuses on top of that. (Per UO Guide and per talking to crafters.) Hence the popularity.

Mage Armor does indeed count for the Imbuing weight; I also addressed this in my post.



Something of a misunderstanding about how plate armor was used historically. These guys did not, I can guarantee you, do less damage than did the ones who couldn't afford full plate. And they could move way faster than you think. Plate armor was fitted to the dude wearing it. As long as he didn't suddenly get fat it fit him like an exo-skeleton.

More gameplay-specific it sounds too complex and to add a damage sponge for PvP sounds potentially unbalancing. Anyone remember when swamp dragon barding absorbed PvP damage?

Was a tad crazy.

-Galen's player

Tone on this message may be a tad too strident given the topic and my rather mild intent.

Sorry!

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I think if you just made it so that:

A) Metal Armor has higher resist caps than leather (As it used to be, since AR was the "Resist", and it went Leather -> Ringmail -> Chainmail -> Plate), say 80 or so at the highest level..

And/Or

B) Give it a higher maximum Imbuing weight, say an additional 50-100 points (Mage armor would still count towards this weight with Samurai armor).

.. You would see a significant boost in it's use. These could scale based on ringmail, chainmail, or plate. They seem like the simplest options to change.

If you wanted to make things more complex, you could start analyzing benefits and penalties as suggested. Maybe leather would have high energy and cold resist caps, but low physical or fire based caps. Plate would be the opposite, etc. But that would be a bit more difficult to juggle, I think, and people would start mixing leather and plate... To hideous-looking effect...

Higher resist cap duplicates what happened with the "new leathers" many years ago, and is an effective nerf of non-metal armors.

Also, as others in the thread have also suggested, what is UO about is not flexibility? If you don't think someone looks awesome in ring/plate/leather combinations but they do? Or even if they agree it looks crappy but they want the character to look like, say, a poor and exiled Knight who cobbles together his armor out of disparate pieces out of necessity?

Also while some may remember the days of full plate or full leather suits....Those same days were also the days of building awesome suits out of ramshackle pieces found on monster corpses.

-Galen's player

 

[Coldren]

Higher resist cap duplicates what happened with the "new leathers" many years ago, and is an effective nerf of non-metal armors.

It would not be a nerf to non-metal armors - It would be a buff to metal armors because you could still not med through metal. There is still a benefit to wearing leather, but now there would be a benefit to wearing metal, instead of just a penalty.

Also, as others in the thread have also suggested, what is UO about is not flexibility? If you don't think someone looks awesome in ring/plate/leather combinations but they do? Or even if they agree it looks crappy but they want the character to look like, say, a poor and exiled Knight who cobbles together his armor out of disparate pieces out of necessity?

As a side note, I still wear full plate armor on my combat character, despite it's inferiority to leather. Nothing stops players from doing that now, the only difference is, I take a penalty for what I think fits my character's "style" as far as appearance, and since melee characters still require mana for special moves (Something else I have a serious issue with), and I don't take the Imbuing hit for Mage Armor (And dislike Samurai plate) it even burdens his skillset. I made that choice, that I wanted style over substance. It's an actual choice I make.

If all people want is to LOOK a certain way, just take away the med penalty to all armors and remove STR requirements so that everything is the same and be done with it. But if you're doing that, why should material matter at all for anything but color? On second thought, we can pretty much dye anything now, why not take away all special materials and just make the colors available through more basic means? Than you can change it so the level of tailoring or blacksmithing affect the total resist points or enhance bonus instead of materials, and make Arms Lore a part of the calculation.

Beyond that, if you want armor to make a difference, there has to be pros and cons to each, otherwise you have the above. You want to be an exiled Knight who cobbled together his armor? That is your choice, and you should feel the effects of it. What is the point in RP'ing in cobbled armor if you are at no other disadvantage to a landed knight of nobility in full Valorite and the finest weapons?

If everything is the same, then nothing is special. If every choice is purely cosmetic, you take away REAL choices that affect your gameplay. I want those kind of choices, and I want them to mean something. The problem is right now, aside from aesthetics (or RP, i.e, the cobbled Knight or guild uniforms), there is no reason anyone would choose metal.

I personally would just like that choice to mean something on a gameplay level, and not just a voluntary penalty.

My opinion, of course.

 

[Merus]

It would not be a nerf to non-metal armors - It would be a buff to metal armors because you could still not med through metal. There is still a benefit to wearing leather, but now there would be a benefit to wearing metal, instead of just a penalty.



As a side note, I still wear full plate armor on my combat character, despite it's inferiority to leather. Nothing stops players from doing that now, the only difference is, I take a penalty for what I think fits my character's "style" as far as appearance, and since melee characters still require mana for special moves (Something else I have a serious issue with), and I don't take the Imbuing hit for Mage Armor (And dislike Samurai plate) it even burdens his skillset. I made that choice, that I wanted style over substance. It's an actual choice I make.

If all people want is to LOOK a certain way, just take away the med penalty to all armors and remove STR requirements so that everything is the same and be done with it. But if you're doing that, why should material matter at all for anything but color? On second thought, we can pretty much dye anything now, why not take away all special materials and just make the colors available through more basic means? Than you can change it so the level of tailoring or blacksmithing affect the total resist points or enhance bonus instead of materials, and make Arms Lore a part of the calculation.

Beyond that, if you want armor to make a difference, there has to be pros and cons to each, otherwise you have the above. You want to be an exiled Knight who cobbled together his armor? That is your choice, and you should feel the effects of it. What is the point in RP'ing in cobbled armor if you are at no other disadvantage to a landed knight of nobility in full Valorite and the finest weapons?

If everything is the same, then nothing is special. If every choice is purely cosmetic, you take away REAL choices that affect your gameplay. I want those kind of choices, and I want them to mean something. The problem is right now, aside from aesthetics (or RP, i.e, the cobbled Knight or guild uniforms), there is no reason anyone would choose metal.

I personally would just like that choice to mean something on a gameplay level, and not just a voluntary penalty.

My opinion, of course.

I just think there are far to many players that DO optimize there suits regardless of what it looks like. Regardless of the pros and cons of different pieces, the optimum combination usually prevails for the majority of similar templates. IMO we end up right back where we are now... One combination of armor outperforms the others. I respect the idea of each type having its pros and cons, but ultimately there will never be perfect balance unless all pieces are equal. I would rather everyone receive the same pros and cons and be able to dress in their own unique style without suffering some hindrance to their game play just because of how they like to suit up.

 

[Coldren]

I just think there are far to many players that DO optimize there suits regardless of what it looks like. Regardless of the pros and cons of different pieces, the optimum combination usually prevails for the majority of similar templates. IMO we end up right back where we are now... One combination of armor outperforms the others. I respect the idea of each type having its pros and cons, but ultimately there will never be perfect balance unless all pieces are equal. I would rather everyone receive the same pros and cons and be able to dress in their own unique style without suffering some hindrance to their game play just because of how they like to suit up.

If they want to optimize regardless of appearance, that is their CHOICE. It's not the choice I make, but you're absolutely correct, and some do.

And while I do understand that some just want to LOOK a certain way without penalty, I don't agree that it makes it a good idea. I think it simplifies a choice that adds complexity and depth and tactical value to the game at the alter of superficial vanity, and that's a dangerous path to take - Homogenizing is a surefire path to mediocrity, and the same logic applied to armor can easily be adapted to fit almost any other system in the game where a choice makes a difference.

I don't want UO to be simpler. I like the complexity. I like the fact that how I choose to outfit my character has an impact on how my character performs. I like that the skills I choose dramatically effect what I can do, that taking one weapon over another does more than change my paper doll. I like choices that matter, and are not easily (but not irrevocably) reversed. It's the only reason I still play UO, and not other simpler games.

Some may not. Some just want WoW's transmogrify system, but even simpler because they don't even want to restrict it to armor classes or weapon classes like WoW does. And that's their opinion.

It's just not mine.

 

[Merus]

If they want to optimize regardless of appearance, that is their CHOICE. It's not the choice I make, but you're absolutely correct, and some do.

And while I do understand that some just want to LOOK a certain way without penalty, I don't agree that it makes it a good idea. I think it simplifies a choice that adds complexity and depth and tactical value to the game at the alter of superficial vanity, and that's a dangerous path to take - Homogenizing is a surefire path to mediocrity, and the same logic applied to armor can easily be adapted to fit almost any other system in the game where a choice makes a difference.

I don't want UO to be simpler. I like the complexity. I like the fact that how I choose to outfit my character has an impact on how my character performs. I like that the skills I choose dramatically effect what I can do, that taking one weapon over another does more than change my paper doll. I like choices that matter, and are not easily (but not irrevocably) reversed. It's the only reason I still play UO, and not other simpler games.

Some may not. And that's their opinion. As is mine.

The choice is always there, no matter which option you take. Whether you choose to optimize under the current scheme or the scheme you suggest is still a choice... The homogenizing happens by virtue of the fact that most choose to optimize, not the other way around. Everyone who chooses to optimize ends up looking the same, everyone else suffers a penalty in one form or another if the don't optimize... Which is exactly what we have now. By adjusting so-called balance issues, all that you really do is move the optimization point around a bit.

 

[Shakkara]

When I ran a freeserver a long time ago, I overhauled the combat system. Here's what I did with the armor:

* Damage was dealt to location again (head, torso, legs, arms, hands, neck) based on pre-AOS hit probabilities
* Armor parts could have damage absorption property, which reduced damage by a flat amount if that part got hit
* All Materials (leather, ore, wood, dragonscales, etc) were given new stats, resistance totals were either +10, +12 or +14 so there was not much power difference between dull copper (+10) or valorite (+14)
* Metal weapons would have special properties based on ore type, not just damage type
* Resistances were still global
* Meddability was no longer an all or nothing thing, but a value was calculated based on composition of your armor, with hit probability chance being a factor (so a platemail gorget wouldn't count as heavily as a platemail chest)
* Meddability of armor would affect mana regeneration rates even for characters without med as it would affect the 0.2 free mana per second, no focus char in full plate would not get any mana

Note: First number is for neck/gloves, second for arms/head, third for legs/torso
* Leather - full med, no bonuses, no penalties
* Light Wood - full med, 2 absorb, -1/1/2 dex
* Bone armor - half med, 2 absorb, no penalties
* Ring Mail - half med, 3 absorb, -1/1/2 dex
* Chain Mail - no med, 4 absorb, -1/1/2 dex
* Samurai, Heavy Wood - half med, 5 absorb, -2/2/3 dex
* Dragon - base was half med, 5 absorb, -2/3/4 dex, but modified heavily with scales
* Plate - no med, 6 absorb, -2/3/4 dex

* Slow and Two-handed weapons got a few points of armor-ignoring damage to compensate
* Pole weapons (spear, pike, halberd, etc) got range 2

Note: Dex and Stamina (and item properties in general) didn't get so out of control as they are now on production servers. Loot was much closer to the stuff that dropped around AOS launch, items with 4 properties on them were rares. So -8 dex for a medium suit or -18 dex for a platemail suit was quite a noticable thing. And -6 damage was quite serious too as damage numbers weren't so big. On production server the values and penalties would have to be re-worked. Perhaps half/non meddability should reduce the effects of mana leeching up to 50%.

 

[Ludes]

I just hope they balance it all out right.. like plate should be heavier and therefore slower.. but can take way more damage. Whereas chain or ring would be lighter and faster but not absorb as much damage.
Kinda like pre-AoS.
Gonna be interesting no matter what to see how they do it.

 

[Arcades]

I just think the way it is now, leather has all the bonuses and none of the negatives. And this should not be the case. I think the resistance caps should be lowered to 60 on a full leather set. Each piece of leather/leaf gets 0 bonus to resistance cap, while ring/studded +1 / chain +2 / plate mail and wood +3 / dragon scale +4 per piece of armor. Thus maximum caps of 60 for leather/leaf, 66 for ring/studded, 72 for chain, 78 for plate/wood, and 84 for dragon scale. You can mix and match all you like.

I also think the runic bonses should be redone on all metal armors and dragon scale.

 

[Nails Warstein]

I have always advocated the idea of "TRANSMOGRIFICATION" which could be a skill, a scroll, a tool, and/or some type of gold sink that does the following:

A menu offering you the ability to change the physical appearance of your armor piece without changing its name and its stats. Example:

Say your template has woodland leggings of slaughter, hat of the magi, midnight bracers, leather gorget from the royal britannian zoo, spined leaf gloves, and rune beetle carapace.

With Transmogrification, you can change the physical appearance of each piece to now resemble all platemail armor, tokuno style armor, elf style armor, dragon scale armor. No need to alter game mechanics, save a lot of work on coding.

Transmogrification definition - To Change into a different shape or form, especially one that is fantastic or bizarre.

 

[Ludes]

And leather should wear out much faster than metal..

 

[Coldren]

Whether you choose to optimize under the current scheme or the scheme you suggest is still a choice... The homogenizing happens by virtue of the fact that most choose to optimize, not the other way around. Everyone who chooses to optimize ends up looking the same, everyone else suffers a penalty in one form or another if the don't optimize... Which is exactly what we have now. By adjusting so-called balance issues, all that you really do is move the optimization point around a bit.

Agreed to a point.. But I think people "optimize" differently. They chose different skills, and the gear they chose reflects how they utilize those skills and what they are fighting, so they chose different gear to fit the situation and their style.

I rarely if ever see 2 people in exactly the same gear myself, but I could just have a limited view. I also don't remember seeing a lot f plate on any players either.

 

[CovenantX]

The things that make it difficult would be:

1) Med vs Non-med
2) Resistance cap (stays at 70, for all armor types?) if it's lowered for leather, then other types, pvp would get a severe imbalance.
3) How to make all types of armor "useful" instead of making it only Leather & Plate. (why would one use studded leather, when Plate has the highest damage mitigation?),

surely there are other things to consider..

*1) Meditation conversion (Shakkara has posted something along these lines allowing each armor type a set Meditation-skill-allowance) mana regeneration, without making the skill ineffective until above a certain level) Example Studded Leather - allows meditation at 100.0 and lower, Ringmail 80.0 and so on...

*2) A Pvm only damage absorption makes sense. and that wouldn't make pvp suffer, although pvpers wouldn't really gain benefit from using it, other than fighting in area's where Pvm might interfere.

3) a Stamina penalty (not Dex). Reason for this is Dexterity directly effects Healing speed via bandage. and heavy armor is supposed to Increase survivability not decrease it.
Stamina only effects Swing-speed. Healing would still gain the full benefit from dexterity.

Note: whatever penalty would be added to each type of armor, needs to be applied Per-Piece of Armor, otherwise people would just mix the armor sets to avoid penalty.
which would be another imbalance.

It might also be necessary to add Properties to metal types for enhancing purpose. Currently the only armor types being used are Leather for anyone, Woodland for Elves.
Woodland Armor wouldn't be used at all if it weren't for the enhancing benefits of the Wood-types.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

And leather should wear out much faster than metal..

Most of our leather is made from substances that don't exist IRL, using techniques and tools both magical and mundane that also don't exist IRL.

OK, now having said "we can't use IRL," I'm going to use IRL to address one of your other posts! *chuckles*

Plate vs Chain.....Some historical types --my sources are usually a combination of historians and re-enactors who write books which I read and documentaries which I listen to on YouTube while playing UO-- have claimed that Plate was actually lighter, or at least felt lighter, than Chain. Chain was an adjustable piece that hung from your shoulders. Plate was fitted to you and was evenly distributed, with articulation at the joints and other critical areas, to allow a nice range of motion.

Not like plate wasn't heavy. It just is never quite as heavy as you think, and the weight being evenly distributed seems to have mattered.

One thing I've realized in a lot of reading is that there's a surprising amount we don't know about this stuff.

Anyway.....

As to this game, I think simple is the way to go, and that way the decision can be primarily aesthetic and/or mixing and matching advantages.

Question to the crafters.....Does it seem like it'd be easy enough to add Wood armor's bonuses to Plate somehow, thus making Plate at least equal to Wood?

And then of course there's the basic issue that I raised in my initial post. If the folks I talk to in voice chat are right, then currently there's an imbalance against Plate and other metal armor types in terms of the basic resistances offered. One that isn't necessarily balanced out by the awesome potential of Valorite runic crafting.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Three questions.

For the crafters in particular: Based on your knowledge of crafting systems, would there be a comparatively easy way to add Wood armor bonuses to Plate?

For everyone: Would it be terribly unbalancing to do something (seemingly) simple like adding say 5 DCI to every piece of GM crafted Western Plate that wouldn't be included in the Imbuing weight and would go away if you reforged a piece? (Sort of equivalent to the resident, unweighted mage armor that comes from GM made Samurai plate pre-Imbuing.)

For people who were at or saw videos of the party last Saturday: Did anyone get a feel for what they had in mind?

-Galen's player

 

[Warpig Inc]

One thing also to remember about changing armor look for another. We will need the belt coin purse chance for the robe slot. With the mods on that robe slot little use to care what is under it. After they get rid of yellow checks in the game and design the belt pouch. Changing an worn items look and not it's title could be a nice little gold sink. Buy a worn slot token from an NPC and artwork is changed. We know through tricking that color could remein the same. Just don't forget the footwear slot. The Orc RPers would rise back up. Those that spend way to much time on our boats would rather be wearing a tricorne or skullcap even if the title says Hunters Headdress.

About time also any crafted armor of Exc. grade could have better then 35 durability.

 

[Shamus Turlough]

I just want to take a second to comment. These are all GREAT ideas and I want to thank everyone in this thread for being able to discuss this potentially heated topic without the need for it devolving into a shouting contest.

Actual Content: To comment on one of Galen's posts re: adding wood props to metal. What about dragon scales? Insted of adding a few measly resists, how about when crafting with dragon scales, they add a property (or set of properties) based on color? Dragons are magical creatures anyway, and according to popular dragon lore, the scales and teeth of a dragon were said to imbue the holder of them with magical properties.

Side Note: Galen, would you mind if, once this thread slowed a tad, I moved it to the 'Ask the dev's' subforum? It would be more likely to be seen by the people who can make these changes.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I just want to take a second to comment. These are all GREAT ideas and I want to thank everyone in this thread for being able to discuss this potentially heated topic without the need for it devolving into a shouting contest.

Actual Content: To comment on one of Galen's posts re: adding wood props to metal. What about dragon scales? Insted of adding a few measly resists, how about when crafting with dragon scales, they add a property (or set of properties) based on color? Dragons are magical creatures anyway, and according to popular dragon lore, the scales and teeth of a dragon were said to imbue the holder of them with magical properties.

Side Note: Galen, would you mind if, once this thread slowed a tad, I moved it to the 'Ask the dev's' subforum? It would be more likely to be seen by the people who can make these changes.

Would not mind at all.

-Galen's player

 

[Coldren]

For the crafters in particular: Based on your knowledge of crafting systems, would there be a comparatively easy way to add Wood armor bonuses to Plate?

For everyone: Would it be terribly unbalancing to do something (seemingly) simple like adding say 5 DCI to every piece of GM crafted Western Plate that wouldn't be included in the Imbuing weight and would go away if you reforged a piece? (Sort of equivalent to the resident, unweighted mage armor that comes from GM made Samurai plate pre-Imbuing.)

For these two points, I think the difficulty you will encounter is on the technical side.

I don't know know if the systems can support cross-trade enhancements. It'd be the technical parallel of enhancing bows with metals, or weapons with leather.

As for Imbuing, they haven't even fixed issues with the weighting with Arms Lore, DI, and Valorite hammers. I don't know that the system would be able to selectively ignore the imbuing weight of an item without major unforeseen side effects.

Besides that, if you view resist cap and Imbuing weight cap increases to metal as a nerf, but you could enhance metal objects with wood-based properties, isn't that just another nerf to leather from a different direction?

For people who were at or saw videos of the party last Saturday: Did anyone get a feel for what they had in mind?

Do you happen to have any links to these videos? I've found one or two, but afraid I might be missing some key ones.

 

[Tazar]

3.5) a Stamina penalty (not Dex). Reason for this is Dexterity directly effects Healing speed via bandage. and heavy armor is supposed to Increase survivability.
Stamina only effects Swing-speed and healing would still gain the full benefit from dexterity.

If it helps balance the armor vs. skills/etc. - then I'd say use Dex. After all... can you imagine trying to tie off a bandage wearing Plate-mail Gloves vs. doing it in Leather Gloves? I admit I've never tried it - but it sure seems that Leather would be much easier.

 

[Shamus Turlough]

... can you imagine trying to tie off a bandage wearing Plate-mail Gloves vs. doing it in Leather Gloves? I admit I've never tried it - but it sure seems that Leather would be much easier.

If it's a band-aid, I doubt you could open the bugger with any kind of glove on. Those things are hard enough to open barehanded!

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Besides that, if you view resist cap and Imbuing weight cap increases to metal as a nerf, but you could enhance metal objects with wood-based properties, isn't that just another nerf to leather from a different direction?

To me the difference is, with increasing the cap you are...Well, increasing the cap.

With throwing on a certain property as resident onto the armor you're giving a different way to arrive at a pre-existing cap. The DCI cap would still be 45%. At most you're making it easier to nullify Hit Lower Defense, but still one could still get to the 65 or 70 or whatever it is to nullify that cap. This just gives you another option to do it.

Granted, that's what I thought when I first saw the stats of the Faction Artifacts and those proved to be a tad much!

So I could easily be wrong.

Do you happen to have any links to these videos? I've found one or two, but afraid I might be missing some key ones.

I've seen what you have seen, maybe even less! But my original post was spurred by a verbal conversation with someone who watched it while it was streaming and mentioned that what people wanted for a metal armor fix/improvement was much simpler than what they seemed to be thinking of. But they could remember what was said only to a limited degree.

-Galen's player

 

[Vor]

My RP char has worn full GM crafted plate, for the last 8 years. No item properties. No 150 stats. Don't ruin his dex! Please!

 

[Vor]

If it's a band-aid, I doubt you could open the bugger with any kind of glove on. Those things are hard enough to open barehanded!

Band-aids are plasters in the US right? Bandages are not band-aids

 

[CovenantX]

No. I was not talking about Imbuing.

I was talking about runic bonuses.

Remember that I was talking rather specifically about why Samurai Plate was popular before Imbuing. If you use a Valorite Hammer to make Samurai plate you get mage armor and THEN you get the Valorite bonuses on top of that. (Per UO Guide and per talking to crafters.) Hence the popularity.

Mage Armor does indeed count for the Imbuing weight; I also addressed this in my post.

The exceptionally added "Mage Armor" to samurai armor, does count as a property towards imbuing yes, but you are currently able to reforge this armor While it has "Mage Armor" on it, as long as it was made with normal Iron materials. so this specific armor type would potentially better than all other armor types. (unless the penalty would be enough to counter-balance)

More gameplay-specific it sounds too complex and to add a damage sponge for PvP sounds potentially unbalancing. Anyone remember when swamp dragon barding absorbed PvP damage?

Was a tad crazy.

-Galen's player

Yes... that was a bit upsetting. I too would rather it be a flat pvm-based damage absorption, just because balancing is what seems to be going on, and that would just prolong the issues we currently have.

Besides, pvm damage reduction works in pvp to a degree, When you fight at champ spawns, harrowers. and such (pvm interference) and they're revisiting champ spawns as well. so it wont be useless in pvp, even if the damage absorption isn't effected by pvp-related damage.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

My only concern is that preexisting suits are not turned into garbage. Those that pvp already went through suit problems when factions were changed and couldn't wear most our armor if you played multiple shards. Now many have been reduced to just a few suits, I would hate to see them turn into something along the lines of those that are wearing all leather(almost all pvpers) having a suit like that go to 50s across the board or something like that. If someone like that happened it would be the straw the broke the camels back.

 

[Warpig Inc]

I can see it being easier to apply band aids while wearing leather. Becuase your wearing leather instead of plate you would get a lot more practice. Could also say of UO's earliest days before LRC, " It just way to damn hard to dig reagents out of a pouch while wearing plate gloves or haveing muffled incantation in a full face helm with limited motion for waving your arms about"

 

[Smokes To Much]

My only concern is that preexisting suits are not turned into garbage.

This is my concern as well. If they change it and suddenly all of my char's suits need to be redone, yet again.... I don't think I'm up for that.

In just the last couple years Imbuing, Reforging and the changes to Faction artis have literally forced us to redo ever single suit any of our chars had been using. The 100's of hours collecting resources and runics to make these new suits better not have been wasted in order for some half assed attempt to make metal armor more desirable again.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I hope it's more they just change plate however they need and leather isn't changed so everyone does not have to re do their preexisting suits.

Also I think everyone needs to stop being so technical. Talking about what you can do irl in plate vs leather. Last I checked none of us cast spells irl or fight monsters so to me it just adds nonsense that the devs don't need to put up with. They already have their plates full. This of course is just imho.

 

[Smokes To Much]

They really need to look at ......what is the goal here?

If the goal is to make metal armor more useful, then let's look at who that benefits. Pure warriors (which don't exist anymore) and chars with Chiv and Bushido, basically non spellcasters (maybe the real problem is they essentially turned everyone into a spellcaster and the pure warrior aka knight, barbarian, etc no longer exist.) The goal should be to allow a very specific group of warrior types to be able to be actual tanks again. With the insane damage monsters are currently able to deal the only tanks left are people using necro forms (sampire/wammy) and a few specific pets. And people using necro forms are not so much tanks as uber healing machines who are still taking the tons of damage, but are just able to "heal" through it.

So if that is the goal, to give melee pure warrior types a boost, then they could simply make it so if you're wearing all metal armor your resist cap is 80-90 instead of 70. I don't pretend to know what that cap should be in order to be balanced perfectly (especially keeping PvP in mind) But in order to accomplish this they would need to do a few things:

-Remove the "mage armor" property from the game. Also several artis would need to be adjusted.
-Remove any racial or spell effects that allow spell casters to exceed 70 resists (Elf 75 energy, Stone form resist bonuses, etc).
-Balance archers and throwers vs melee types. They're already OPed compared to most melee types (especially throwers). No reason to give them an even higher resist cap.

This would essentially allow someone to be an actual tank who thanks to wearing very heavy armor is able to absorb alot of damage. Keep in mind that people would have to devote alot more room on their suits to get to these higher resist caps, thus balancing somewhat. This would also not effect any spellcasters as their suits would not change and they should not benefit, nor be penalized from any changes made to make metal/bone armor more desirable.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I don't think it's a matter of increasing caps. I think it just sounds like plate needs better base resists when crafting.
I stay away from it just because of the non med factor more than anything.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

They really need to look at ......what is the goal here?

If the goal is to make metal armor more useful, then let's look at who that benefits. Pure warriors (which don't exist anymore) and chars with Chiv and Bushido, basically non spellcasters (maybe the real problem is they essentially turned everyone into a spellcaster and the pure warrior aka knight, barbarian, etc no longer exist.) The goal should be to allow a very specific group of warrior types to be able to be actual tanks again. With the insane damage monsters are currently able to deal the only tanks left are people using necro forms (sampire/wammy) and a few specific pets. And people using necro forms are not so much tanks as uber healing machines who are still taking the tons of damage, but are just able to "heal" through it.

So if that is the goal, to give melee pure warrior types a boost, then they could simply make it so if you're wearing all metal armor your resist cap is 80-90 instead of 70. I don't pretend to know what that cap should be in order to be balanced perfectly (especially keeping PvP in mind) But in order to accomplish this they would need to do a few things:

-Remove the "mage armor" property from the game. Also several artis would need to be adjusted.
-Remove any racial or spell effects that allow spell casters to exceed 70 resists (Elf 75 energy, Stone form resist bonuses, etc).
-Balance archers and throwers vs melee types. They're already OPed compared to most melee types (especially throwers). No reason to give them an even higher resist cap.

This would essentially allow someone to be an actual tank who thanks to wearing very heavy armor is able to absorb alot of damage. Keep in mind that people would have to devote alot more room on their suits to get to these higher resist caps, thus balancing somewhat. This would also not effect any spellcasters as their suits would not change and they should not benefit, nor be penalized from any changes made to make metal/bone armor more desirable.

Of course, having such a thing as a higher general resist cap would be an effective nerf of other suits, which is something you in another post said you specifically did not want.

Your citing as a Knight as something different from a Paladin, assuming you mean Knight in the European sense, is also something I should address. Based on my reading, and I being a D&D player was surprised by this, the Paladin fantasy archetype is basically the same thing as a Knight archetype in the European sense. Even Knights that fought for their Lord as opposed to directly for the Church were still expected to be quite devout, and the Knighting Ceremony eventually took on highly religious overtones and made extensive use of religious imagery.

Remember that the First Crusade pre-dated the founding of the Templars and the Hospitalers, and that even after the founding of those Orders the imagery of the Crusade was used in military campaigns that did not, or did not exclusively, involve those Orders.

In other words....If you mean Knight in the specifically European sense, you are pretty much talking about a Paladin. Those of us who played late 1st edition Dungeons and Dragons may be a little surprised by that, because Paladin and Cavalier were different, but related, character classes. But historically Paladin and Knight can accurately be described as interchangeable terms, at least in Europe.

Now if you mean Knight in a more generic sense --a mounted elite warrior who is also a social elite--, then actual skills or fighting style is basically irrelevant.

The Barbarian archetype....Well, the only non-leather, non-meddable armor I associate with that archetype is bone, not plate. Granted, Conan in the books wore chain on occasion, but even in the books he was most-commonly associated with fighting in just a loincloth.

As to the non-spell using warriors in UO, unless you count special moves as spells, which some surely do, then they surely do exist and indeed a post made shortly after the Covetous Void Pool became active shows that one of them was actually doing really well in the Void Pool.

They ain't common but they exist.

I actually made one, one to have an unfortunate soulstone incident that made me rage delete him before I ever really got to try him out. He hitherto had had a very small amount of Chivalry (like 50). But when I realized how much use I was getting out of that Chiv I decided to take him full-on old school warrior.

But, alas, that incident ended my experiment.



-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I don't think it's a matter of increasing caps. I think it just sounds like plate needs better base resists when crafting.
I stay away from it just because of the non med factor more than anything.

The base resists, from talking to my friends who actually craft, is what seems to be the issue. If the types were more-equal then you could make your decision based on aesthetics and your willingness to put up with lack of med-ability.

You could get a good Plate suit but you start from a disadvantaged position, such that you actually have to specifically sacrifice effectiveness in order. And from what folks have told me the situation with non-Plate metal armors is rather worse.

And surely you could buy lots of Valorite Runic Hammers, make lots of stuff, and between that and Reforging wind up with something awesome. There's a great thread on the crafting forum about some dude making a nice Sampire suit from Plate for his wife's Sampire. But it seemed like quite the effort! And the suit incorporated the Mace and Shield Glasses anyway.

But if you want to surety of Imbuing, from talking to crafters seems like you start from a notably disadvantaged position.

That's the part I never got the previous times thisissue has come up. When someone argued this I'd go right to the awesomeness of Valorite Runic Hammers and forget the more-basic aspects of traditional crafting and Imbuing.

Hopefully there's a way to do something with this without making Samurai Plate even more desirable than it is now. That resident mage armor is powerful enough! It is a disadvantage when you want to Imbue but an advantage in most other situations.

-Galen's player

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I have no problem makings suits with just crafting leather usually with horned for good base resists, and then imbuing. I don't bother with reforging and I have no issue. I was just stating it shouldn't be a raised cap for plate wears, if its the base resists they are complaining about then change the base resists. However I would never use it just because of the non med factor that would cause all my humans to be worthless giving up their med from JOAT.

 

[Smokes To Much]

if its the base resists they are complaining about then change the base resists. However I would never use it just because of the non med factor that would cause all my humans to be worthless giving up their med from JOAT.

This is what I'm getting at. What is the end goal of this change?

I don't think anyone bothers with plate for many reasons and unless it gives them a tactical advantage, I don't see anyone using it just because it's base resists are increased, because there are still so many downsides of using it. Getting to all 70's is not a big deal, even using leather which has the worst base resists (excpet for cloth).

 

[G.v.P]

-Remove the "mage armor" property from the game. Also several artis would need to be adjusted.

Get rid of the "mage armor" property, maybe turn it into a random eater or something, and get rid of the metal/wood/etc med. hindrance. It's definitely the easiest fix because then you aren't ruining suits left and right due to a total armor system change. We're never going back to an AR way of doing things so there's no good reason to have metal/etc block med.

 

[CovenantX]

I don't think they should make everything med-able, without changing special materials to add properties to armor. If everything changed to be med-able, Woodland Armor would be the best over-all armor around due to the HPR, DCI, HCI, or DI possibilities from enhancing.

All Armor: Leather - Plate types (Human/Elf) Base resist = 15 total, Studded Leather Armor & Bone Armor = 16 total non-exceptional and normal quality resources.

 

[Blood Ghoul]

They really need to look at ......what is the goal here?


So if that is the goal, to give melee pure warrior types a boost, :

This is my thought exactly... I have been trying to make a character without any of the mage skills that would be useful and its basically impossible. If you do not add 1 or 3 of the magic skills your guy will suck compared to other templates. It would be nice to play a pure warrior type that could actually be effective

 

[MalagAste]

Actually I'd like to see Metal and Leather get bonus's inline with wood.

Wood has insane bonus's compared to leather and metal... I think if they added some of the same things to leather but at a reduced amount over metal or wood you'd see more folk using metals.

 

[FrejaSP]

Alot of good idias
I miss the old AR thing, adding resist to armor is a pain, I know to much of the game depent of the resist now.

I would like to see different imbuing caps on the materiales. Imbuing resist to a piece, should only count for one imbuing mod, even if you changes all the resists

Leather, plain, spinded, horned, barded:
Max resist on one piece, 50, 52, 54, 56
If Studded/hide 53, 55, 57, 59 , medable but slow
If Bone 56, 58, 60, 62 , non medable

Metal/granite armor iron, dull, shadow, copper, bronze, golden, agapite, verite, valorite
Ringmail: 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 56, 56, 58, 58 Medable
Chainmail: 55, 56, 56, 57, 57, 59, 59, 61, 61 Medable but slow
Plate and Stone 59, 60 , 60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 65, 65 non medable

Scala Armor 59, here need some basis mods
Wooden Armor 59, the mods need a review after we got imbuing
I would like Scala and Wooden to have mods on matrial but not be inbue able, so the mods should have 100-500 imbuing wieght, maybe LRC 17 on plain wood, LRC 17 and MR 1 on blue scala and oak, frost wood could have some nice mods, maybe one or two you can't imbue. Maybe some mods should be one out of 3 randum.
Scala and wooden armor could then be a business for crafters without imbuing

 

[CovenantX]

Actually I'd like to see Metal and Leather get bonus's inline with wood.

Wood has insane bonus's compared to leather and metal... I think if they added some of the same things to leather but at a reduced amount over metal or wood you'd see more folk using metals.

This in combination with allowing the JOAT meditation to not be effected by non-med-able armor.

*can't wait to wear my heavy archer set again!* (newly crafted after the new changes anyway...)

 

[NuSair]

Actually I'd like to see Metal and Leather get bonus's inline with wood.

Wood has insane bonus's compared to leather and metal... I think if they added some of the same things to leather but at a reduced amount over metal or wood you'd see more folk using metals.

Wood deserves to have that higher because you cannot recycle wood. You can make all the leather/metal you want, you get pieces you don't like, you recycle. Wood, you cannot do that.

And yes, it does make a huge difference. Speaking as a crafter.