You need to be on foot and have at least 90 tactics/throwing for Infused Throw to dismount someone on a successful hit. Same thing for the para shot of it, but you have to either be flying or you and your target need to both be grounded.
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Through reforging, you can make a Yumi with 40% SSI, then after imbuing it up, use a Forged Metal of Artifacts to enhance Ash, for 50% SSI.
Anyways, Armor needs a SERIOUS revamp too. I spent about 3 hours yesterday crafting a full suit of Human Plate Armor out of Iron for right resist setup, then enhanced to Valorite with a +60 ASH. After working on it with a spreadsheet, i discovered it would take a total of 7 imbues to max all the Resists at 70 (Not even Corpse Proof), 2 imbues on the Leggings, 1 on each other piece. Where the Gargoyle Plate Suit i made awhile back, took a grand total of 5 imbues for all 70s Resists (Corpse Proof), 2 on the Earrings, 1 on Kilt/Leggings/Arms.
The Human Platemail Suit has a grand total of 70/70/70/70/70 Resists, with 40% LMC/+15 Health/+48 Stam/+15 Mana/+12 MR
The Gargoyle Platemail Suit has a grand total of 74/85/70/85/73 Resists, with 40% LMC/+15 Health/+40 Stam/+48 Mana/+8 MR.
Something is seriously wrong here, especially considering that Leather Armor is so close to Human Plate Armor in Resists, when Plate Armor is heavy, requires high STR, is not meddable, is not stealthable, the materials for it is harder to get, it requires a higher skill level to craft, with a higher failure rate to create.
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Gotcha, thanks! So it works like a heavy xbow, with more range...can i stun someone while Im flying, and they are mounted too?
Yup! or if you're on foot and they're on foot. It's usually a good tactic if you have a group with you to get the dismount off first, then para shot, lets your team mates do damage then try to spam armor ignores with your soul glaive
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hello, your explanation was very helpful, thanks!
But I still have a lot of headaches with the reforge, besides not being able to manage change (it is random), In the same way it is done with the kits runes.
I need to know is to know or control what is being reforged?
Another thing you mentioned the forged metal, it is not to be used only once every char?
Thanks for the responding so we know it's not going ignored.
I would like to second the thanks. It has been a great pleasure recently to read all the active feedback, even if it is a short "We are looking into this issue." This kind of dialogue from developers goes a long way on the morale of the playerbase. My only follow-up would be, are you possibly still going to look at other weapons for balance? I understand the focus on the glaive as it is currently number wise a top pick damage dealer, but many of the other points in this thread including the general theme of "4 second weapons" is a very important topic to players like me, who is always itching to come back to a more balanced UO experience.
I come from a PvP backround mostly, but any possible solution would have to work for both aspects of the game: An example of the swing speed issue would be after a weapon gets to a 3 second swing speed and you have a base of 30% swing speed (easy to do), dex of 120 or up (stats are a much tighter investment), the return on damage from trying to make these weapons swing at 1.25 becomes less feasible and/or desirable. Being able to swing as often as possible with a 50% hit chance is almost a necessity, especially in pvp where hit lower defense is countered more often than not. This example doesn't even touch on some of the other issues with weapons in general in regards to weapon special moves and 2 handers being generally under-represented. If you can respond it would be much appreciated, otherwise thanks for checking in and keep up the good work.
I come from a PvP backround mostly, but any possible solution would have to work for both aspects of the game: An example of the swing speed issue would be after a weapon gets to a 3 second swing speed and you have a base of 30% swing speed (easy to do), dex of 120 or up (stats are a much tighter investment), the return on damage from trying to make these weapons swing at 1.25 becomes less feasible and/or desirable. Being able to swing as often as possible with a 50% hit chance is almost a necessity, especially in pvp where hit lower defense is countered more often than not. This example doesn't even touch on some of the other issues with weapons in general in regards to weapon special moves and 2 handers being generally under-represented. If you can respond it would be much appreciated, otherwise thanks for checking in and keep up the good work.
I would say that the current situation with the Soul Glaive isn't so much that it's overpowered it's just that it's "up to date" where as the older weapon types are not. With the PvPers these days have 150 HP, 15% Damage Eater All, 18 HP Regen, 70 DCI etc... the difficultly of killing someone has increased lately where as old weapons that were powerful in their day (Ornate Axe / composite ) etc.. just haven't changed. Gah.... I even forgot about dexxers bandage slips happening at higher damages with the release of the Focused Mage Temp. Anyway, I think perhaps the glaive could lose the 11 tile Range since that's the ONLY weapon in the game with that ability, but I'd really like to see some of it's abilities handed out to other items.. Double hit spell / Balanced 2 handed Halberds anyone ??
That.
In general I think it is better to balance in that manner: If the Soul Glaive is "up to date" and I don't think that is an unreasonable point of view, then it would be great to see some changes to older/slower weapons to update them to the same level.
An example for a weapon like the War Mace which has mediocre specials in addition to its speed being 4 secs would be: compare them to what we consider "up to date" weapons like Cyclone/Soul Glaive. Then decide if the mace, because of its lack of range deserves a damage boost (in my opinion there should be some minor advantage to being non-ranged). Being a "heavier" weapon I personally don't mind if the speed stays the same or is even reduced slightly, this doesn't mean I believe the weapon is balanced as it currently is. Lastly I would look at the special moves and see if there was a better combination that would make this weapon more desirable.
This is slightly off-topic, but related, some special moves in game need to be updated/tweaked. For example:
Crushing Blow (current) - Also known as the Haymaker, this attack increases the damage done by a weapon reaching its mark by 50%. Additional damage is applied as physical damage.
Crushing Blow (proposed) - Also known as the Haymaker, this attack increases the damage done by a weapon reaching its mark by 50%. Additional damage is applied as physical damage. If your opponent is in Stone Form you crush the enchantment dispelling the effect. (If Stone Form is dispelled in this way the mana cost of Crushing Blow is doubled.)
This is just a quick example of how "updating" mechanics can be done without having to nerf mechanics people enjoy in PvM or other aspects of the game. I picked this as an example because there is a whole other thread on how Stone Form in general is too strong with only other Mystics and long cooldown trinkets as counters. This move also makes literal sense, but by all means doesn't need to be the final suggestion. I was just trying to get the ideas out there and discussion moving forward.
An example for a weapon like the War Mace which has mediocre specials in addition to its speed being 4 secs would be: compare them to what we consider "up to date" weapons like Cyclone/Soul Glaive. Then decide if the mace, because of its lack of range deserves a damage boost (in my opinion there should be some minor advantage to being non-ranged). Being a "heavier" weapon I personally don't mind if the speed stays the same or is even reduced slightly, this doesn't mean I believe the weapon is balanced as it currently is. Lastly I would look at the special moves and see if there was a better combination that would make this weapon more desirable.
This is slightly off-topic, but related, some special moves in game need to be updated/tweaked. For example:
Crushing Blow (current) - Also known as the Haymaker, this attack increases the damage done by a weapon reaching its mark by 50%. Additional damage is applied as physical damage.
Crushing Blow (proposed) - Also known as the Haymaker, this attack increases the damage done by a weapon reaching its mark by 50%. Additional damage is applied as physical damage. If your opponent is in Stone Form you crush the enchantment dispelling the effect. (If Stone Form is dispelled in this way the mana cost of Crushing Blow is doubled.)
This is just a quick example of how "updating" mechanics can be done without having to nerf mechanics people enjoy in PvM or other aspects of the game. I picked this as an example because there is a whole other thread on how Stone Form in general is too strong with only other Mystics and long cooldown trinkets as counters. This move also makes literal sense, but by all means doesn't need to be the final suggestion. I was just trying to get the ideas out there and discussion moving forward.
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Luke Carjacker
Guest
I understand the concern here. I have several throwers and...yes I think throwing is a bit overpowered. I don't really have any comments on re-balancing because it will just lead to people complaining about some other class.
Think back, if you recall, to when throwing was first introduced. As several people commented in this thread, very few people used the skill. Do you all remember why? Sure, it's because it was new character class & required new training, gear, etc., but really the main reason was, there as a 1/2 second delay built into throwing for the weapon to return. If that delay still existed, then I think the throwing weapons would slot in perfectly among the other weapons (especially the comparable archery weapons). But, people complained and the devs wanted people to try the new skill, so they removed the delay. If I recall, there was also some kind of 1st hit glitch that prevented people from using throwing in the beginning, but that was probably a bug that was properly corrected.
So, like I was saying before, throwing is probably a little overpowered, but I'm not pushing for any change because that would just throw the competitive balance to some other skill. Throwing was underpowered and underutilized once, people complained about it, things were changed, and then it became overpowered. No need to continue the cycle; maybe consider a re-balance if/when new weapons or a new skill is introduced.
Think back, if you recall, to when throwing was first introduced. As several people commented in this thread, very few people used the skill. Do you all remember why? Sure, it's because it was new character class & required new training, gear, etc., but really the main reason was, there as a 1/2 second delay built into throwing for the weapon to return. If that delay still existed, then I think the throwing weapons would slot in perfectly among the other weapons (especially the comparable archery weapons). But, people complained and the devs wanted people to try the new skill, so they removed the delay. If I recall, there was also some kind of 1st hit glitch that prevented people from using throwing in the beginning, but that was probably a bug that was properly corrected.
So, like I was saying before, throwing is probably a little overpowered, but I'm not pushing for any change because that would just throw the competitive balance to some other skill. Throwing was underpowered and underutilized once, people complained about it, things were changed, and then it became overpowered. No need to continue the cycle; maybe consider a re-balance if/when new weapons or a new skill is introduced.
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lancelot99
Guest
Nerf the Soul glave would make virtually all throwers change back to human/elf sampires. Yes throwers hit hard but can't tank for ****, and have no damage absorbing swampy to ride. Speaking as a pvm Thrower distance fighting i'm great but enclosed areas (cov lev4) cannot compare to a elf/human sampire. Don't change just to please the minority pvp crowd.
As a player who is currently not playing UO at the moment, but always looking for reasons to return. I would just like to point out that nerfing one weapon which is unfortunately over used is much less likely to entice new and returning players. Now we all are entitled to our opinions and there have been great points made by many people, it just seems a shame to "half-ass" this potential area of improvement by nerfing instead of updating/balancing.
Now Woodsman hasn't posted in this thread, but I have come to agree with him in regards to UO's future continued success. It should be about striving to bring in new/returning players and would just like to pose the question of "Will this one nerf really help in the long run, compared to some meaningful review/update of the weapon system in general?"
Now Woodsman hasn't posted in this thread, but I have come to agree with him in regards to UO's future continued success. It should be about striving to bring in new/returning players and would just like to pose the question of "Will this one nerf really help in the long run, compared to some meaningful review/update of the weapon system in general?"
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lancelot99
Guest
Well, matches well with archers riding armoured swampies. less damage but more defence. Nerf glaves in-line with archery weapons then give gargs the same protection and distance an armoured swampy and bows give... Sorted
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TBH, it's not only 4+ second weapons, all weapons in general need some type(s) of adjustments made to them.
If you take these two macing weapons: Maul & Diamond Mace.
Maul
14-16 damage
3.5s speed
requires 45 strength
Primary = Crushing Blow
Secondary = Concussion Blow
Diamond Mace
14-17 damage
3s speed
requires 35 strength
Primary = Concussion Blow
Secondary = Crushing Blow
The Diamond Mace is far better because of its Base damage & Base Speed.
If you take these two macing weapons: Maul & Diamond Mace.
Maul
14-16 damage
3.5s speed
requires 45 strength
Primary = Crushing Blow
Secondary = Concussion Blow
Diamond Mace
14-17 damage
3s speed
requires 35 strength
Primary = Concussion Blow
Secondary = Crushing Blow
The Diamond Mace is far better because of its Base damage & Base Speed.
I am definately on the side of a larger revamp which it seemed the topic of this thread was aimed at, rather than the focus on throwing in particular it has leaned towards. To me it just seems sort of sloppy to nerf one thing people enjoy, only to (hopefully) change weapons down the line and cause a need to re-adjust the same weapon again.
What I am trying to illustrate is that the one issue we have been given a comment on is really just a tiny fraction of unbalance in the overall system. "Nerfing" the Soul Glaive is not likely to quell the posts on throwing being "overpowered", when it does nothing to touch upon the Cyclone. If a change to the Soul Glaive is deemed needed, but not done exactly right I can almost guarantee you people will just pick up the Composite Bow and proceed to make that the new goto weapon. I believe that because the Soul Glaive has Armor Ignore it has been focused more harshly when it comes to balance. Honestly I can see this pattern repeating itself down the line of Armor Ignore weapons, as in almost every instance of top tier PvM it is the preferred damage special move. Thus further touching upon some of the lingering issues with the weapon system.
I would love to hear more feedback on this, because as I read more posts and try and contemplate the issue myself I tend to get stuck on the reliance of certain special moves. Most recently realizing that unless there are more viable options to Armor Ignore peoples choices will be severly limited in PvM making it harder to put forth balanced suggestions.
You made a good point there, one that is difficult to argue against. I would just like to point out a few things that may not have been realized. In this case we are talking about the "nerfing" of the Soul Glaive. Depending on the severity of said nerf it would likely have the biggest impact on PvM as Armor Ignore is capped in PvP (35 damage - reached almost effortlessly) and any base damage taken off the weapon would drastically affect the uncapped damage range. Changing the speed of the weapon would make slightly more sense, but would still affect PvM more as most players only need to use the specials briefly on the Glaive before switching right back to the faster Cyclone for Moving Shot/Infused Throw.
What I am trying to illustrate is that the one issue we have been given a comment on is really just a tiny fraction of unbalance in the overall system. "Nerfing" the Soul Glaive is not likely to quell the posts on throwing being "overpowered", when it does nothing to touch upon the Cyclone. If a change to the Soul Glaive is deemed needed, but not done exactly right I can almost guarantee you people will just pick up the Composite Bow and proceed to make that the new goto weapon. I believe that because the Soul Glaive has Armor Ignore it has been focused more harshly when it comes to balance. Honestly I can see this pattern repeating itself down the line of Armor Ignore weapons, as in almost every instance of top tier PvM it is the preferred damage special move. Thus further touching upon some of the lingering issues with the weapon system.
I would love to hear more feedback on this, because as I read more posts and try and contemplate the issue myself I tend to get stuck on the reliance of certain special moves. Most recently realizing that unless there are more viable options to Armor Ignore peoples choices will be severly limited in PvM making it harder to put forth balanced suggestions.
Sure, but the original post was not about weapons balance with four seconds?
hello, I believe it would not be a good idea to reduce the range, because you've seen what happens when in battle, be pkiller, or monster, you are near of the gargoyle?
this advantage disappears, and the amount of damage also decreases considerably.
I'm guessing English is not your primary language because your statement dind't make much sense to me.... I'm not trying to make fun of ya, I'm sure you speak more languages than I do, but reducing the Soul Glaive to a 10 Tile range would be a simple reduction in it's "power".... It is the ONLY weapon with an 11 tile range ...... I honestly don't think throwing really needs changes, I think weapon like the Maul / War Mace etc that are completly useless should be fixxed..hello, I believe it would not be a good idea to reduce the range, because you've seen what happens when in battle, be pkiller, or monster, you are near of the gargoyle?
this advantage disappears, and the amount of damage also decreases considerably.
Nothing to be fixed.. they're working as intended for their usage 10 years ago. Just update them! Also think about changing some of the special moves on weapons in general especially blade weave (by change I mean delete and put something useful in its place. That would make another several weapons useful in all areas of the game (PvP, and PvM)
Incase you had missed this quote from the "PvP needs some Attention" thread, so potentially some more good news in the future. I had thought about giving weapon damage suggestions similar to what Covenant was trying to illustrate in his post, but I think I will leave that to the professionals at this time. There is way too much math and variables to get right to feel like I would be helping. However, on a related topic I did attempt to tackle some of the issues with weapon specials.
Weapon Special Move Review | Stratics: A Career Path in Gaming
Take a look if you got the time, but beware its a long post. No hard feelings if you pass out midway thru.
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I've been using a lance for years, yah it's slow as hell but its the only one handed dismount weapon for fencing. It does work and I've dismounted a lot of people with it. It does dismount without having to "joust" or what ever also.
My issue with the big old slow weapons is that they have no incentive to use. I use a lance because it's the ONLY dismount option for my nox fencer. With this in mind perhaps to make the older weapons no one wants to use viable again their should be some new special that makes it worthwhile.
And Yumi bows are awesome.. but archery vs throwing, throwing is still better.
I understand that other weapons are bad in comparison but gargoyles were also a terrible terrible race when they came out. There had to be a reason to play them..Its funny how things go from being underpowered (throwing was worse then archery at first) to being way overpowered.
And I have to agree with goldberg on most of this.. adapt and deal. I hate throwing but I hate archery and bleed attacks. I hate mysticism. I don't pvp as much because of it. I adapted to trammel.. LOL. I guess I'm "bad". I don't really care because bottom line is this : it's a game for fun and if it's not fun DON'T DO IT. LOL. My main complaint is over the power of the new skills, but I wasn't complaining when necro was strong because I like necro. It's adapt or stfu. I just don't find it very fun to pvp the templates or the style of right now. So I choose to stfu about it.
Fixing this game basically means make a whole new game. It's gonna be a matter of picking the issues that really matter vs ones that are kind of an issue. Throwing needs to be looked at, and they said they would do that. Older weapons will be looked at I guess but I'd rather see that time and effort being used towards making more long term changes that improve the overall game. Fixing a few old weapon seems like it's down the list quite a bit.
My issue with the big old slow weapons is that they have no incentive to use. I use a lance because it's the ONLY dismount option for my nox fencer. With this in mind perhaps to make the older weapons no one wants to use viable again their should be some new special that makes it worthwhile.
And Yumi bows are awesome.. but archery vs throwing, throwing is still better.
I understand that other weapons are bad in comparison but gargoyles were also a terrible terrible race when they came out. There had to be a reason to play them..Its funny how things go from being underpowered (throwing was worse then archery at first) to being way overpowered.
And I have to agree with goldberg on most of this.. adapt and deal. I hate throwing but I hate archery and bleed attacks. I hate mysticism. I don't pvp as much because of it. I adapted to trammel.. LOL. I guess I'm "bad". I don't really care because bottom line is this : it's a game for fun and if it's not fun DON'T DO IT. LOL. My main complaint is over the power of the new skills, but I wasn't complaining when necro was strong because I like necro. It's adapt or stfu. I just don't find it very fun to pvp the templates or the style of right now. So I choose to stfu about it.
Fixing this game basically means make a whole new game. It's gonna be a matter of picking the issues that really matter vs ones that are kind of an issue. Throwing needs to be looked at, and they said they would do that. Older weapons will be looked at I guess but I'd rather see that time and effort being used towards making more long term changes that improve the overall game. Fixing a few old weapon seems like it's down the list quite a bit.