Looping sounds? Don't think I ever ran into that one before..
Well not for many many years anyway..
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Well not for many many years anyway..
Many crafters and vendor owners do it to offer a service to those who need it, not to get rich from it.
So if a reseller comes by and buy them out just to fill their own vendor up and charge double, that service is destroyed. Why spend time and energy to provide a service when a single player can take that service away from you? No wonder many shop and vendor owners have chosen to close down their business cuz they are tired of being (ab?)used.
It´s not always about the profit. And I know that´s a concept that is hard to grasp for many in today´s UO...
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Ludes:
I still can't get Britain BG music and dungeon music to stop playing unless I enter another BG music zone or use a music box. I know that at one time there was a typo in the code for the Britain music (in the old file that you could edit to change music), but not sure that was the cause.
I'd REALLY like to see Buc's Den get its own music back, instead of the Emporium's music that got substituted for it back when HS was released.
I still can't get Britain BG music and dungeon music to stop playing unless I enter another BG music zone or use a music box. I know that at one time there was a typo in the code for the Britain music (in the old file that you could edit to change music), but not sure that was the cause.
I'd REALLY like to see Buc's Den get its own music back, instead of the Emporium's music that got substituted for it back when HS was released.
Well said Tjalle.
We talk about getting new players hooked, but if they cant get any deacent equipment because they dont have lots of gold and their first char cant earn gold because he need equipment.. We old players will be the losers. Theese guys were our future biggest costumers, not the old vets with stuffed castles and developed characters.
If the greedy ppl just could keep their hands off crafted armour, weapons, spellbooks and runebooks I dont mind the rest. But this is sad to me.
We talk about getting new players hooked, but if they cant get any deacent equipment because they dont have lots of gold and their first char cant earn gold because he need equipment.. We old players will be the losers. Theese guys were our future biggest costumers, not the old vets with stuffed castles and developed characters.
If the greedy ppl just could keep their hands off crafted armour, weapons, spellbooks and runebooks I dont mind the rest. But this is sad to me.
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Basara
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As for resellers, one has to look no further than the one that had all their DOZENS of houses burn several years ago.
On my shard, that person bought every ingot and leather on the market and tripled the previous going rates (if not more). It pretty much destroyed crafting, because suddenly you couldn't find horned & barbed leathers, and ingots over bronze, for less than 200k per 1000, with the high-end stuff running in the 350-400 range.
He also would buy out any runics and high end BODs for sale (primarily tailor larges and smith smalls, as tailor smalls were too common (and still are), and Smith larges were bugged to be too common), and do the same thing. You eventually couldn't find any BOD of a useful nature on the shard except via trade, or by paying him twice what the entire filled BOD was worth (combined gold and cost of buying a reward).
This left you with the only sources for runics and other rewards being your own collected BODs, the occasional trade, or buying his known-to-be-duped runics (or ones he bought to corner the market for his dupes). This is the real reason why most shards had their crafter and resource gatherer communities crash & burn long before SA ever came out.
Having some sort of reseller protection is therefore vital, even if it's just a timer so that anything bought off a vendor can't be resold on a vendor for a week, and (if resources) can't be stacked with other stuff of the same type until the timer wears off (the latter so they can't just peel off all but 1 item, stack it with untimed stuff, and toss the one with the timer).
On my shard, that person bought every ingot and leather on the market and tripled the previous going rates (if not more). It pretty much destroyed crafting, because suddenly you couldn't find horned & barbed leathers, and ingots over bronze, for less than 200k per 1000, with the high-end stuff running in the 350-400 range.
He also would buy out any runics and high end BODs for sale (primarily tailor larges and smith smalls, as tailor smalls were too common (and still are), and Smith larges were bugged to be too common), and do the same thing. You eventually couldn't find any BOD of a useful nature on the shard except via trade, or by paying him twice what the entire filled BOD was worth (combined gold and cost of buying a reward).
This left you with the only sources for runics and other rewards being your own collected BODs, the occasional trade, or buying his known-to-be-duped runics (or ones he bought to corner the market for his dupes). This is the real reason why most shards had their crafter and resource gatherer communities crash & burn long before SA ever came out.
Having some sort of reseller protection is therefore vital, even if it's just a timer so that anything bought off a vendor can't be resold on a vendor for a week, and (if resources) can't be stacked with other stuff of the same type until the timer wears off (the latter so they can't just peel off all but 1 item, stack it with untimed stuff, and toss the one with the timer).
When you've spent hours upon hours crafting with the intent of supplying the needs of multiple training characters, and have a regular clientelle who drop by secure in the knowledge that they will find what they need on your vendors, it is totally disheartening when a re-seller discovers your shop. Within minutes of stocking you find yourself the owner of multiple totally empty vendors, your reputation for reliability destroyed and your regular customers disappointed. I stopped stocking vendors on Europa because I wanted to supply the needs of players, not be slave labour for a re-seller. My only vendors are now on Siege, where it doesn't happen. I will respond to buying requests in chat or by icq, but I won't have in game vendors on Europa again.
It would be nice if they could somehow code it so that crafted, non-stacking items could not be resold on a vendor once it´s been bought from one.
So once an item has been bought it gets an invisible "tag" that makes it impossible to put it on a vendor again. There´s already a half-similar code in the game cuz at least on Siege if you try to put a faction armor piece on a vendor it bounces back in your backpack.
I guess resources and such would still be in the "danger zone" but at least the hard working crafters could sell their wares to the players that need them without having to worry about some lazy reseller buying them out.
If someone wanted to sell such an item anyway they could always sell it player to player so it would not be that such an item would never be able to be sold ever again.
Would be one step in the right direction IMO...
try to adjust and take control of UO's market is not a step in the right direction. the freedom of the market is one of the great things that UO offers.
not being able to resell an item you recently bought is definitely not free trade. if/when a vendor search goes in, that will mostly eliminate reselling for huge profit as people will have means to find items for cheaper and will help discourage reselling.
making money off reselling is what a lot of people enjoy doing. it's a part of the game, just as much as farming items. it correlates to real life business where money makes money and that's appealing to some.
enforcing some sort of 'invisible hand' personally rubs me the wrong way. it forces people to play the game the way others (developers and players) decide for them. the beauty of UO is the freedom it offers that is mostly unparalleled by other games in this market.
if i want to use my money (hard earned or not) to make money, i should have that freedom to do so.
i've been on both sides. buying items for cheap, reselling for a lot more and selling items on the cheap just to make a quick sale. encoding some sort of feature that limits this just hurts the market, the way i see it, because people will only buy things they feel they need, not just because they see investment opportunity.
making money off reselling is what a lot of people enjoy doing. it's a part of the game, just as much as farming items. it correlates to real life business where money makes money and that's appealing to some.
enforcing some sort of 'invisible hand' personally rubs me the wrong way. it forces people to play the game the way others (developers and players) decide for them. the beauty of UO is the freedom it offers that is mostly unparalleled by other games in this market.
if i want to use my money (hard earned or not) to make money, i should have that freedom to do so.
i've been on both sides. buying items for cheap, reselling for a lot more and selling items on the cheap just to make a quick sale. encoding some sort of feature that limits this just hurts the market, the way i see it, because people will only buy things they feel they need, not just because they see investment opportunity.
You would still be able to resell items within my proposal.
I think all we can really do is wait and see. There's several ways it could go, and we really can't ask for a lot of restrictions. Hopefully Sativa Green is right and a standard selling price will be established naturally, rather than enforced by coding, for regularly sold goods, diminishing the likelyhood of reselling.
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Basara
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Buying something and immediately reselling it is like that commercial a few years back about bad stockbroker/program services where the guy bought an antique, and immediately after buying it, telling the auctioneer - I'd like to sell it right now. There's no reason to do it. Period. The only person that benefits is the middleman, as you screw the original owner out of much better profits had he known he was under market value, and the final buyer pays more. This is compounded by the fact that traditionally, when you have people buying to resell, it's to corner the market so they can charge several times the real market value for items most people won't or can't obtain due to the effort involved. This isn't EVE Online. If you want to pull that kind of stuff, go play that game where retail PVP is an accepted base factor of the game.
If you have a buyer for an item you don't have, and want to be an ass and make a profit on some other guy's item (rather than show the buyer where to get it), buy it yourself and sell it by trade window. Most of these suggestions only serve to slow down resale, by an enforced turn-around time or requiring it to change hands by other methods. It's not like anyone's suggesting that items off vendors become "no drop/no trade".
If you have a buyer for an item you don't have, and want to be an ass and make a profit on some other guy's item (rather than show the buyer where to get it), buy it yourself and sell it by trade window. Most of these suggestions only serve to slow down resale, by an enforced turn-around time or requiring it to change hands by other methods. It's not like anyone's suggesting that items off vendors become "no drop/no trade".
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Reselling has been a part of this game from the moment the very first vendor went live on a shard somewhere within UO.
Trying to prevent it now does nothing but take more sand out of what used to be the UO sandbox, and it increases the complexity of systems. Increasing the complexity means it takes up more developer and Q&A time, and it increases the chances of bugs.
If you want to restrict tools of the trade for resellers, then start putting some serious cool-down timers on the use of runebooks, because runebooks were the handiest tool I ever had as a reseller. For a long time, I could hit a few dozen locations in the morning before work, then hit a a few dozen more in the evening and it would not take very long at all.
You know what are other handy tools for resellers operating within UO's TOS? Commodity deeds, BOD books, pack animals, beetles, and last, but not least, houses to store everything in. The arguments some of you are making could easily be used against runebooks, commodity deeds, BOD books, pack animals, houses, because all of those things help resellers.
Quite frankly, a search engine can make it easy, but at the end of the day, a good reseller following the TOS is going to be able to be incredibly efficient. Trying to close the barn door after the horse ran away 10 years ago and the barn burned down 5 years ago.....
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I wish some of you were much more passionate and vocal about the scripters, because when all is said and done, the scripters are the bigger threat than people buying and selling from others. The scripters are doing more harm to the economy than any resellers ever did. Hell, the scripters with their search engines are making it very easy for rsellers.
If you notice in the Q&A, the scripting question was sidestepped, by calling them "goldspammers" instead of what they are, exploiters, scripters, violators of EA's TOS. Those gold spammers got that gold from scripting.
I wish you all would latch onto that, rather than trying to get something people have wanted for years killed off before it ever happens.
If you notice in the Q&A, the scripting question was sidestepped, by calling them "goldspammers" instead of what they are, exploiters, scripters, violators of EA's TOS. Those gold spammers got that gold from scripting.
I wish you all would latch onto that, rather than trying to get something people have wanted for years killed off before it ever happens.
I am so confused. If you sell an item for the price you want what does it really matter to you what they do with it after it is gone? As for New Players what great items are you selling so cheap that a reseller would buy you out every day? I do not sell to New Players I just give them starter sets and tell them welcome to UO. As for putting time delays on items is IMHO just stupid or making resources not stack with same resources is IMHO another stupid idea. How else am I suppose to restock my resources without causing a storage nightmare? I do not sell resources I sell items and I try to keep prices at the lowest I can and if a reseller thinks he/she is going to corner the market off what I sell then I say PLZ come buy me out every day and lets see who runs out first. Yes I restock my vendor everyday and could care less what others do with it.
Timer idea BAD
Banning buyers idea BAD
Having UO track players buying/selling BAD
This is UO and you now want UO to ban a play style VERY VERY BAD
What is next putting a limit on how many resources you can buy (IE regs) from a NPC.
SELL YOUR STUFF FOR WHAT YOU THINK IT IS WORTH AND LET OTHERS DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH IT. Just keep your vendor stocked everyday and you will be supprised how much of your stuff makes it out to the player base.
PLZ tell me what it is you are selling (don't just say Armor, Weps) that is being bought and resold at such an alarming rate or that is so great and cheap that resellers are camping your vendor.
Timer idea BAD
Banning buyers idea BAD
Having UO track players buying/selling BAD
This is UO and you now want UO to ban a play style VERY VERY BAD
What is next putting a limit on how many resources you can buy (IE regs) from a NPC.
SELL YOUR STUFF FOR WHAT YOU THINK IT IS WORTH AND LET OTHERS DO WHAT THEY WANT WITH IT. Just keep your vendor stocked everyday and you will be supprised how much of your stuff makes it out to the player base.
PLZ tell me what it is you are selling (don't just say Armor, Weps) that is being bought and resold at such an alarming rate or that is so great and cheap that resellers are camping your vendor.
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We have been passionate about the scripters. Frequently and vocally. Sadly there seems to be no easy answer to them. I wish there was.
Actually - erm, I've been logged in for almost 3 hours now, I'm in 'help' channel and it is totally free of goldselling spam.
They could just add an option that would give us the choice to set our vendors so that anything they sell can't be resold. Perhaps charge a fee for the ability as a goldsink. I set my vendor up with that feature, it carries a notice that it's items are enchanted so they can't be resold as a warning to those who love to add zeroes to prices, and the people who want to not be price gouged can buy items at decent prices. Add an asterisk to the items names or something to indicate the can't-be-resold status.
This would prevent the price-gouging Resellers from cornering the market. They can buy and quadruple the price of the items not marked as un-resellable all they want, but people can still buy the decent priced un-resellable stuff
This would prevent the price-gouging Resellers from cornering the market. They can buy and quadruple the price of the items not marked as un-resellable all they want, but people can still buy the decent priced un-resellable stuff
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Alot is being said about scripters and all kinds of cheaters , ower and ower. Very little about how people feel getting bought out directly after restocking. There are two sorts of traders I think. Both are in it to make alot mote gold than if they had to craft or hunt for what they sell. First kind buy from people that want to sell their loot or recources etc. They advertice, place books with prices and keep contact with players and are good for the community, not everyone want to run vendors.
Then there are the ones that parasite on others work and dont give a damn about how much time it takes for the vendor owners to keep stocked so the shop gets a good reputation. I have vendors in a guild shop since ten years back or so , so I know the other vendor owners very well and we all struggle to make a good shop . Every day we get visites from other shop owners that dont buy anything if they dee us but if they dont they clean out the vendors they are iterested in.
Petra used to run exellent vendors in a well known well stocked shop. Mainly crafted items, for years and years. she said it so well:
When you've spent hours upon hours crafting with the intent of supplying the needs of multiple training characters, and have a regular clientelle who drop by secure in the knowledge that they will find what they need on your vendors, it is totally disheartening when a re-seller discovers your shop. Within minutes of stocking you find yourself the owner of multiple totally empty vendors, your reputation for reliability destroyed and your regular customers disappointed. I stopped stocking vendors on Europa because I wanted to supply the needs of players, not be slave labour for a re-seller. My only vendors are now on Siege, where it doesn't happen. I will respond to buying requests in chat or by icq, but I won't have in game vendors on Europa again.
We are lots of people that enjoy running well managed shops and make a little gold for te effort but not aiming at getting rich, more as a service for people that dont have the time to craft all what they need. Happy customers that find what they need for a fair price. Hopefully we contribute to satisfied casual players and new players that helps us keep Britannia populated. To us thats much more important than making lots of gold.
Then there are the ones that parasite on others work and dont give a damn about how much time it takes for the vendor owners to keep stocked so the shop gets a good reputation. I have vendors in a guild shop since ten years back or so , so I know the other vendor owners very well and we all struggle to make a good shop . Every day we get visites from other shop owners that dont buy anything if they dee us but if they dont they clean out the vendors they are iterested in.
Petra used to run exellent vendors in a well known well stocked shop. Mainly crafted items, for years and years. she said it so well:
When you've spent hours upon hours crafting with the intent of supplying the needs of multiple training characters, and have a regular clientelle who drop by secure in the knowledge that they will find what they need on your vendors, it is totally disheartening when a re-seller discovers your shop. Within minutes of stocking you find yourself the owner of multiple totally empty vendors, your reputation for reliability destroyed and your regular customers disappointed. I stopped stocking vendors on Europa because I wanted to supply the needs of players, not be slave labour for a re-seller. My only vendors are now on Siege, where it doesn't happen. I will respond to buying requests in chat or by icq, but I won't have in game vendors on Europa again.
We are lots of people that enjoy running well managed shops and make a little gold for te effort but not aiming at getting rich, more as a service for people that dont have the time to craft all what they need. Happy customers that find what they need for a fair price. Hopefully we contribute to satisfied casual players and new players that helps us keep Britannia populated. To us thats much more important than making lots of gold.
...
If you're having your stock "bought out in minutes" to the detriment of "regular customers", then you need to do one or two things...
1. Raise your prices, you're obviously missing out on what you could be making
2. Know your "regular customers" and have them on some form of alternate contact so that you and they can be in touch when a trade needs to occur.
Through an NPC vendor, unless you are watching that vendor ALL THE TIME, you have no idea what the person buying the item is going to do with it.
The Vendor Search system is going to have a net positive effect AGAINST price gougers simply because their prices will be open for everyone to see and beat. There will be no more having to buy from that vendor because it's the only one you've found with a certain item in the past 5 hours of looking (when you could have been... playing).
The Vendor Search system should be as basic as necessary... simply a database with a UI slapped on it to give players the ability to find the item they want within the parameters of their search (be it mods, amount of a commodity, price, location, etc) and nothing else. There needs to be no attempts made to monkey around with the way a free economy works.
If you're having your stock "bought out in minutes" to the detriment of "regular customers", then you need to do one or two things...
1. Raise your prices, you're obviously missing out on what you could be making
2. Know your "regular customers" and have them on some form of alternate contact so that you and they can be in touch when a trade needs to occur.
Through an NPC vendor, unless you are watching that vendor ALL THE TIME, you have no idea what the person buying the item is going to do with it.
The Vendor Search system is going to have a net positive effect AGAINST price gougers simply because their prices will be open for everyone to see and beat. There will be no more having to buy from that vendor because it's the only one you've found with a certain item in the past 5 hours of looking (when you could have been... playing).
Sure, they could Bind on Account everything bought through a player run vendor... and then completely TRASH the concept of an ingame economy in the process. What happens if I go buy a popular Artifact weapon, use it for a while, then decide that I like my custom-built Imbued weapon better? Then what... I'm stuck with the Artifact? Wouldn't it serve me better to be able to RESELL the Artifact (regardless of profit or loss)? Once I've bought the Artifact, it's not yours... it's MINE. What I do with it is NONE OF YOUR CONCERN.
The Vendor Search system should be as basic as necessary... simply a database with a UI slapped on it to give players the ability to find the item they want within the parameters of their search (be it mods, amount of a commodity, price, location, etc) and nothing else. There needs to be no attempts made to monkey around with the way a free economy works.
Im not against a legal vendor search, I just think it shouldnt be mandatory to be seen in it. Just a turn off button please. I have a small shop at my house for new players . I cant stand there giving start gear 24/7 so I need to stock cheap stuff for when im not around.
I think a choice of being able to 'opt out' of being listed is a reasonable request. Far better than asking for safeguards against resellers, which would be very hard to do.
...
I have no problem with an "opt in" or "opt out". My proposal for the system was to use Bulletin Boards as the method to link a vendor into the System (Bulletin Boards in towns would be a Search Only, Bulletin Boards in houses would be used by the owners to link vendors into the system as well as be used for the Search UI), so it was more of an Opt In.
I am, however, against the idea of artificial blocks in attempts to control what someone does with an item once they purchase it. And Opt Out/In system would not be such an artificial block in my view. Price caps and tagging items as "not resellable" WOULD be artificial blocks.
I have no problem with an "opt in" or "opt out". My proposal for the system was to use Bulletin Boards as the method to link a vendor into the System (Bulletin Boards in towns would be a Search Only, Bulletin Boards in houses would be used by the owners to link vendors into the system as well as be used for the Search UI), so it was more of an Opt In.
I am, however, against the idea of artificial blocks in attempts to control what someone does with an item once they purchase it. And Opt Out/In system would not be such an artificial block in my view. Price caps and tagging items as "not resellable" WOULD be artificial blocks.
Exactly ^^^^. Once the UO Vendor Search goes into effect I plan to put 2nd tier armor and weapons on my vendors so that new players will have access to decent armor/weapons while they build their chars... The folks currently ripping us off in Luna/Zento will have NO desire to buy out my vendor simply because there's not enough in it for THEM to do so... The search system will make the game much more "affordable" to the "average" player...
And this ^^^^
Well in my opinion the best way to combat a re-seller is to sell the stuff outside their shop from a packy... telling everyone not to buy from the person as they are "shady"... You can sell from wherever you want... as a vendor yourself.... personally that's what I'd do.... they can't stop you from doing it either.... I think they will take the hint after awhile.
Would be nice if we could pick and choose who we sell things to but we can't.... I honestly would love to be able to ban folk from buying things at a vendor but you can't. I'd also like to be able to set up a vendor for Guild/Alliance members only but you can't do that either... Or give guild/alliance discounts.
Honestly I have only ever had one vendor in all my UO life and it hardly ever sells anything at all... I'm still trying to figure out the vendor system in Magincia but keeping it stocked with pets is becoming a challenge.
Would be nice if we could pick and choose who we sell things to but we can't.... I honestly would love to be able to ban folk from buying things at a vendor but you can't. I'd also like to be able to set up a vendor for Guild/Alliance members only but you can't do that either... Or give guild/alliance discounts.
Honestly I have only ever had one vendor in all my UO life and it hardly ever sells anything at all... I'm still trying to figure out the vendor system in Magincia but keeping it stocked with pets is becoming a challenge.
why would anyone harass players for selling items more than you sold them for? it's their fault for selling them under what current price dictates.
current price is what people are willing to pay for them. the economy shifts constantly where gold becomes worth less cash, therefore prices go up. it's not some scheme by resellers to make more money. it's just people with a constant grasp on how much value UO gold has at a given moment.
trying to hinder this does nothing but hinder people's play-style, and they will find elsewhere to do so.
you want resellers to not make profit? attack the issue: a website that hosts all the items available.
when people want an item NOW, they go to the website and find where they can get it regardless of price because price is again dictated by the player's need of that item.
resellers only make so much money because when nobody is online and a player cannot buy something they desperately want, they go to this website and find where they can. even if the price is high, they buy it because their immediate need is worth more than the UO gold they have.
this website only profits the people who are hosting it and the resellers in major cities with vendors. meanwhile, it hurts the initial seller who sold the item lower than what it could be sold for.
want to fix the problem. shut down this website.
when people want an item NOW, they go to the website and find where they can get it regardless of price because price is again dictated by the player's need of that item.
resellers only make so much money because when nobody is online and a player cannot buy something they desperately want, they go to this website and find where they can. even if the price is high, they buy it because their immediate need is worth more than the UO gold they have.
this website only profits the people who are hosting it and the resellers in major cities with vendors. meanwhile, it hurts the initial seller who sold the item lower than what it could be sold for.
want to fix the problem. shut down this website.
and if it doesn't get shut down, here is my question to the development team:
are your pockets being lined with revenue from existing websites, which have created better scripting/coding than what your development team can create, when it comes to vendor search and listing?
because why else would it be allowed to exist for so long when it's clear there is scripts being used to run it? (scripted players walk around and checking every vendor to update listing prices).
are your pockets being lined with revenue from existing websites, which have created better scripting/coding than what your development team can create, when it comes to vendor search and listing?
because why else would it be allowed to exist for so long when it's clear there is scripts being used to run it? (scripted players walk around and checking every vendor to update listing prices).
Sometimes you just have to make it happen yourself. Have this youtube link playing in the background and put it in a one-vid play list and have it on loop.
[youtube]xyA5c-ajXyg[/youtube]
I agree with Dermott on this. The price gougers may try to take advantage of the system to begin with, but it will not take other players long to see a pattern with certain shops. They will soon get a bad reputation and players will quit buying their inflated product. Also, with a vendor search implemented, I would imagine that there will be more shops opening up. Resellers would have to spend more and more time buying everyone out.
The main reason that I would like to see a vendor search added to the game is it is a real annoyance to spend the time marking runes and distributing them, only to find out 1/2 hour later most of the runes have disappeared. I know that if I want to check out a rune, that I will pick it up when I use it. That way, if the shop is decent, I can add it to my vendors book. But I highly doubt that 60 players did that for the shop I just opened...
Oh, and I did get cleaned out on runebooks, spellbooks, scrolls and potions....
Because some people try to corner the market and destroy sales for most folk and then price control items so that NO player can afford them but the VERY wealthy.... and being if you run off a player whos play style is to be a jack ass to other players then so be it.... I'd rather have a few less of them playing anyway. Greedy SoB's are ruining UO in my opinion.... so if that's their playstyle then I personally would rather they did leave and play somewhere else.
I've tried to stay out of this but really to cry because you suspect that your vendor was cleared out by a reseller is giving the current UO player base a heck of alot more credit than it currently deserves. If you really think that there is such a hugh amount of intrest in what ever item it is that you think people will take and resell I challange you to prove it such. 5 years ago when there were people in the game it might have happened, 8 years ago it might have happened and 10 years ago it did happen but in 2012 it does not happen. You cannot undercut the scripters for the items that people actually want and everything else people already have.
Spend your energy on stuff that matters in the game but this is wasted hot air.
Spend your energy on stuff that matters in the game but this is wasted hot air.
Cool,
I have a similiar one but it's not as nice... but you still have to stop and start it when you recall home and back.
Your is better though.. thanks.
The pro-reseller, charge all the market can bear and then price gouge some more, players are sure sounding off here. Take away their fun of piling up gazillions of game gold in the bank, take away their ability to screw over so many Players by hoarding stuff and jacking up the price far beyond what things are worth, not let them have fun griefing so many other players by forcing them to buy what they need to have at greedy ******* ludicrous prices? Why are we lousy, no good, etc, etc, bleeps trying to destroy their fun of ruining the fun of so many others!?
Simple reason, we want less people discouraged from playing the game due to asinine prices that require them to spend their couple hours a day or less playtime gathering gold for weeks on end to be able to afford required items. We want any Newbies that decide to try the game to be able to stop by a vendor with their life savings of 10,000 gold from the half dozen hours they had to play in their first week or two of playing UO and see prices they can afford, not prices with so many zeroes added on that they know they will have to play for nearly a year to be able to build up enough gold for what they need.
Hopefully this is blunt enough to sink into the "I've got to have 99,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 gold stuffing my bank boxes, packers, backpacks, and castles on my accounts or the game is no fun!" minds of Reseller's. If it's not, someone else will have to give it a try. Apparently they are screaming $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$ so loudly to themselves anything contrary to their obsessive need can't sink in.
The Devs will need to decide, do they want to provide a way around the griefing resellers so that new or just-play-to-have-fun paying customers won't get disgusted with all the zeroes added to prices and take their monthly fees to another game, or do they want to leave things as they are and watch those players leave, lowering UO's bottom line that much closer to the point the beancounters at EA decide to pull the plug. Their call.
Simple reason, we want less people discouraged from playing the game due to asinine prices that require them to spend their couple hours a day or less playtime gathering gold for weeks on end to be able to afford required items. We want any Newbies that decide to try the game to be able to stop by a vendor with their life savings of 10,000 gold from the half dozen hours they had to play in their first week or two of playing UO and see prices they can afford, not prices with so many zeroes added on that they know they will have to play for nearly a year to be able to build up enough gold for what they need.
Hopefully this is blunt enough to sink into the "I've got to have 99,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 gold stuffing my bank boxes, packers, backpacks, and castles on my accounts or the game is no fun!" minds of Reseller's. If it's not, someone else will have to give it a try. Apparently they are screaming $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$, $$KA-CHING$$ so loudly to themselves anything contrary to their obsessive need can't sink in.
The Devs will need to decide, do they want to provide a way around the griefing resellers so that new or just-play-to-have-fun paying customers won't get disgusted with all the zeroes added to prices and take their monthly fees to another game, or do they want to leave things as they are and watch those players leave, lowering UO's bottom line that much closer to the point the beancounters at EA decide to pull the plug. Their call.
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Woodsman
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Hopefully this is blunt enough to sink in: Reselling has been occurring since 1997.
Hopefully this is also blunt enough to sink in: Regardless of any restrictions placed on any legal vendor search engines, the illegal, TOS-breaking search sites that are being used by resellers at this very instant are not going to be affected by those restrictions.
Many players want a legal in-game vendor search. Trying to restrict how they buy and sell things or trying to restrict the search engine itself does nothing but benefit those who are breaking the TOS and using those illegal search sites, and just takes more sand out of what used to be a sandbox MMORPG.
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Hopefully this will be blunt enough to sink in: Once you sell an item, it is no longer yours to dictate how it is handled. If you don't want to deal with resellers, then go outside of the system either by not opting in, opting out, or not using a vendor.
Edit to add: I don't consider myself any more on one "side" than the other, except that I'm on the "side" of a Free Market which means that resellers are simply going to exist, like it or not. They've been part of the game since the times when people would buy out NPC reagent vendors, double the price and put them on their house vendor before Trammel, and they'll be here after any form of Vendor Search is added.
As stated I agree with an Opt In/Out system so those who want to try and limit the effect resellers have on their product can have that option. I DISAGREE with setting arbitrary limitations on how the Market works in general.
Also, it is impossible to hoard and corner the market on any given thing that constantly and consistently spawns in UO. Other than Event items and server birth rares, if it spawns, you can NOT corner the market. People can still obatain the item and compete.
Disclosure: No, I am NOT a reseller, I don't even have a vendor running at this time (when I did I was selling Runics and powders gained from quests and BODs done myself). The only thing I actively do in UO at this date is the weekly login to empty Ore carts, stump, and sheep of resources.
Hopefully this will be blunt enough to sink in: Once you sell an item, it is no longer yours to dictate how it is handled. If you don't want to deal with resellers, then go outside of the system either by not opting in, opting out, or not using a vendor.
Edit to add: I don't consider myself any more on one "side" than the other, except that I'm on the "side" of a Free Market which means that resellers are simply going to exist, like it or not. They've been part of the game since the times when people would buy out NPC reagent vendors, double the price and put them on their house vendor before Trammel, and they'll be here after any form of Vendor Search is added.
As stated I agree with an Opt In/Out system so those who want to try and limit the effect resellers have on their product can have that option. I DISAGREE with setting arbitrary limitations on how the Market works in general.
Also, it is impossible to hoard and corner the market on any given thing that constantly and consistently spawns in UO. Other than Event items and server birth rares, if it spawns, you can NOT corner the market. People can still obatain the item and compete.
Disclosure: No, I am NOT a reseller, I don't even have a vendor running at this time (when I did I was selling Runics and powders gained from quests and BODs done myself). The only thing I actively do in UO at this date is the weekly login to empty Ore carts, stump, and sheep of resources.
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This is the wrong thought process. What you should be asking is why do these people aim to "win" the game while others roll over and play dead at the first thought of competing? If you think that it is hard in the slightest to add a few 000's to your bank box I can then understand why you might think that people are out to screw you but in reality it's not hard at all. Even the easiest thing in the game can add some major coin to your bank balance which is just playing the game and killing stuff. Or it could be playing the vendor game and selling stuff for a better price than what you bought it for. Or it could be farming up kits and making items to sell for stupid prices. It could be farming power scrolls and gold from champ spawns. It could be hunting for that 500 mil item in cov level 3. It could be anything better than trying to screw the entire player base over just so you can sell some rune books for 500 gp
If you really think that the resellers are the issue in this game when it comes to inflation you are sadly wrong, poor planning and no effective gold sinks are the major problems.
The real people who are hording the gold in this game are the people talking every day in the rares forum. Tell them why reselling is a bad idea, you wish to invent a issue to reduce thier gold and spread it around to the masses. I believe that similar experiments have taken place in such notable places as Russia circa 1917.
Basara
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Hopefully this is blunt enough for the 40-watters to understand -
Reselling is well and fine if it's done within reasonable game play; when it's done to corner the market and artificially inflate prices 100-400% over market value (as he of the many burning houses did with resources and bods) on shards where the population is so low there's no way to set up anything resembling competition, it's an extreme detriment to the game.
Having grown up surrounded by car salesmen (who have a general reputation of being predatory from the actions of a few bottom feeders), I can tell you that actually helping someone find something they want at a price they can afford will get you a repeat customer, even if the first thing they get isn't even bought from you. When they CAN afford your product, and go looking for a new one, they'll remember the good deed you did, and come to you first. This made my late father so well loved by his customers that some would drive 1000 miles after moving elsewhere JUST to get their car from him (probably about a dozen a year, some of whom bought a new car EVERY year; but even discounting those guys, half his sales were people living 30-200 miles away, that had bought from him before when living in the area - many of them now living in urban areas with their supposedly "better" dealerships than the one he managed. His dealership was routinely one of the top two in the region, as a result).
It also builds good will with the other businesses in the area in your field, as it encourages them to buy stuff from you for them to sell, as well as getting you good deals in return (like, buying a good used car for your teen, instead of buying a new car that will cost too much to insure and that they'll probably trash). Going every-man-for-himself ends up hurting everyone; contrary to popular belief, the successful dealerships and independent salesmen communicate with each other (resulting in many trade-ins getting sold to the used car dealerships directly, rarely going to auction, and sometimes, selling cars the other direction to fit specific customer requests), while the ones that burn out and tank are the ones that obsess on being "the one and only", and only seeing their competitors when bidding against them at an auction.
A short cool-down timer or quick-resale charge before placing an item BACK on a vendor by someone who wasn't the previous seller won't hurt the game, or the genuine reseller's bottom line in the slightest. After all, most resellers buy stuff to restock their own vendors when they find it (and put into storage for a few days), NOT just when their vendors are already empty for immediate resale. There is ALREADY a timer on items for the ORIGINAL SELLER to put them back on their vendors, where if certain parameters are met, an extra fee is charged (to prevent the old "pull stuff to prevent fees" dodge). Having something that affects the buyer isn't that much of a stretch.
A good compromise example would be the following (requires some changes to commodity deeds).
Reselling is well and fine if it's done within reasonable game play; when it's done to corner the market and artificially inflate prices 100-400% over market value (as he of the many burning houses did with resources and bods) on shards where the population is so low there's no way to set up anything resembling competition, it's an extreme detriment to the game.
Having grown up surrounded by car salesmen (who have a general reputation of being predatory from the actions of a few bottom feeders), I can tell you that actually helping someone find something they want at a price they can afford will get you a repeat customer, even if the first thing they get isn't even bought from you. When they CAN afford your product, and go looking for a new one, they'll remember the good deed you did, and come to you first. This made my late father so well loved by his customers that some would drive 1000 miles after moving elsewhere JUST to get their car from him (probably about a dozen a year, some of whom bought a new car EVERY year; but even discounting those guys, half his sales were people living 30-200 miles away, that had bought from him before when living in the area - many of them now living in urban areas with their supposedly "better" dealerships than the one he managed. His dealership was routinely one of the top two in the region, as a result).
It also builds good will with the other businesses in the area in your field, as it encourages them to buy stuff from you for them to sell, as well as getting you good deals in return (like, buying a good used car for your teen, instead of buying a new car that will cost too much to insure and that they'll probably trash). Going every-man-for-himself ends up hurting everyone; contrary to popular belief, the successful dealerships and independent salesmen communicate with each other (resulting in many trade-ins getting sold to the used car dealerships directly, rarely going to auction, and sometimes, selling cars the other direction to fit specific customer requests), while the ones that burn out and tank are the ones that obsess on being "the one and only", and only seeing their competitors when bidding against them at an auction.
A short cool-down timer or quick-resale charge before placing an item BACK on a vendor by someone who wasn't the previous seller won't hurt the game, or the genuine reseller's bottom line in the slightest. After all, most resellers buy stuff to restock their own vendors when they find it (and put into storage for a few days), NOT just when their vendors are already empty for immediate resale. There is ALREADY a timer on items for the ORIGINAL SELLER to put them back on their vendors, where if certain parameters are met, an extra fee is charged (to prevent the old "pull stuff to prevent fees" dodge). Having something that affects the buyer isn't that much of a stretch.
A good compromise example would be the following (requires some changes to commodity deeds).
- 1. Only single items and commodity deeds would be affected, BUT.....
- Stackable items that can be deeded cannot be sold on vendors except as singles, or when deeded.
- Commodity deeds will now charge 1 GP for each item deeded (which would be a decent gold sink even for non-vendors). Frankly, compared to game and RL comparable systems, 5 GP for the whole deeding transaction has been ludicrously low from its inception. The charge could be when filling the deed, though it could be made an even bigger gold sink if it occurred both when filling and when breaking the deed.
- If the item or deed has been on ANY vendor in the last 24 hours, it will have to be cashed in and redeeded, or the standard Vendor Penalty will be charged when placed back on a vendor, just as if it was an item that had been pulled off a vendor and replaced after the normal grace period.
- (optional) If the deed ends up being donated to a community collection, you get extra points equal to the gold value of the fee in #3 (so, 60,000 mandrake would cost 60,000 to deed, but you get an extra 4,000 points for the deed (60,000/15) when you donate it to the mage NPC at the library). In this way, someone deeding for easier donation doesn't lose their investment in the deed.
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Pulled that one out of somewhere dark... <g>
What I said, if something from my post sank in to your thought processes, is that I want to see the prices restrained to reasonable amounts new and average playtime players can afford, not , let that three letter word sink in, remember now, it was n o t , not reduce their gold and spread it around to the masses. I think the gold of the masses should not be price gouged away from them. The Reseller's keep their huge amount of gold, and the new & low playtime players can keep more of theirs instead of having it price gouged away from them to add to the Reseller's fortunes.
Re-read this a few dozen times, word, by, word, before replying to it. Remember, reply to what the post your referring to actually says, it helps a poster sound like he's paying some attention to what he's been reading.
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The easier answer is usually the better answer... in this case the Opt In/Out for those who think they want to keep their vendor out of the sights of the oh-so-evil resellers. Then let the Free Market do the rest... you might be surprised.
By the way... I SERIOUSLY want to know what people are so scared of selling in regards to the resellers. I've been assuming commodities, but those have hardly been mentioned at all... instead I've read about "newbie gear" which begs two questions... 1. Where are all of these newbies missing out (on empty shards no less), and 2. What does a "reseller" need with "newbie gear"?
Newbies aren't going to be in the market for 10k-60k resource deeds... in reality, they should be focusing on making their own miner/lumberjack/crafter anyway.
Here's a problem... define "reasonable" such that everyone will agree with it. At some point you're going to hit a grey area that people will start DISAGREEING and that's when problems start.
This has been done with Reagents since DAY ONE. People used to recall with pack horses from NPC shop to NPC shop buy EVERYTHING out and resell them for 2x+ the cost. There wasn't a problem then and there isn't a problem now. I fought through it working up an Alchemist (much more reagent burning than a mage at the time) back prior to UO:R. And population doesn't matter. If the resource spawns, it CANNOT be cornered. Secondly, with a global search, people can undercut the vendors in question as well as flag those vendors for others NOT to buy from due to people selling at too high of a price. It's the market at work.
And here we get into more convoluted ideas that's going to do nothing but make the economy in UO worse than it already is. I would suggest that the people in favor of price fixing take a look at some economic history on what happens when governments try to fix prices of goods. I'll give you the short version... NOTHING GOOD. Maybe some people want to play in a tightly controlled "you must play by our hard and fast rules (regardless that previously the actions we are banning were 100% OK) or you can't play our game" system, but if UO changes to something like this, then it's not for me.
The easier answer is usually the better answer... in this case the Opt In/Out for those who think they want to keep their vendor out of the sights of the oh-so-evil resellers. Then let the Free Market do the rest... you might be surprised.
By the way... I SERIOUSLY want to know what people are so scared of selling in regards to the resellers. I've been assuming commodities, but those have hardly been mentioned at all... instead I've read about "newbie gear" which begs two questions... 1. Where are all of these newbies missing out (on empty shards no less), and 2. What does a "reseller" need with "newbie gear"?
Newbies aren't going to be in the market for 10k-60k resource deeds... in reality, they should be focusing on making their own miner/lumberjack/crafter anyway.
W
Woodsman
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Nice, personal insults against people who don't agree with you in an official UO Herald thread! Can we keep the personal attacks out so that yet another official UO Herald thread doesn't get locked?
Besides the problems that Dermott pointed out, namely that it's hard to truly corner a market on stuff that constantly spawns, there is another, much bigger problem: Scripters, or gold spammers as some call them.
You keep talking about people who were banned and had their houses destroyed, but rather than following that trend of pursuing the people who break EA's TOS every single day and wreck the economy on every shard, you are proposing a convoluted scheme that will piss off plenty of legit players.
How about rather than pushing a convoluted system that is going to screw with UO's sandbox (whatever is left of it) and piss off legitimate players, how about pushing for things to bring new players in?
So many of the problems UO has these days trace their roots to a lack of players. The UO team gradually shrinking over the past year or two, causing the amount of things they can do to lessen (from expansions to boosters to theme packs to nothing), causing even less revenue to come in. Players having a hard time finding customers (or sellers). Players in general having a hard time finding other players to play with on a consistent basis.
If there were only two questions in the next Q&A, I would ask these:
1. Why won't you all deal with the scripters that everybody knows about that and that many of us report often? I'm not just talking about the gold spamming trial accounts, but the people behind those accounts who run the bots that feed the search engines, and who have billions in gold and who knows what in resources to sell across the many shards.
2. What are you all doing to bring in new players?
I would not accept Jeff's answer from earlier this year of accommodating the scripters. I still can't believe he said that. And for the record, I don't think it's as complex as some think, because they have banned thousands of players over the years for this stuff with a lot fewer tools than they have now. They know how to find the people doing the search engines and who have the billions in gold and resources for sale through those search sites.
All they have to do is the same thing they've done in the past, buy some stuff from the scripters, find out which accounts are carrying the goods, trace those accounts back to where they cross paths with the paying accounts and go from there.
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You're absolutely right, MalagAste.... Must admit my first thought was something like: "Oh yea, but they'd never devote the coding hours to that...." But the more I think about it, they already have the code for "friending" people - so it would be just an extension of that to a vendor.... Very doable.... I vote YES !
This thread is going around in circles. I hate having to lock Herald posts, can we get back to discussing this week's answers and drop this hot potatoe for now?
Petra... I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you do here - and that is not meant as flattery, but a simple acknowledgement of your skills as a moderator.... But I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. You are absolutely correct when you say that "This thread is going around in circles.", but it's a subject that there is a great amount of interest in here on Stratics, as I'm sure you would agree. Please refrain from locking it due to a discussion that many here wish to continue to have....
Just sayin....
hmm, ok. but let's not derail this thread any further. Let's take this to a seperate thread, and without people turning on each other.
Personally I don't care about number 1 anymore but number 2 is of such a hugh importance that I can't stress enough about how depressing it is to see the lack of direction for getting new blood into this game.
How about restraining the need some have to price gouge and lessen the sense of futility new and low playtime players experience on seeing the huge prices so that more of those that do come try this game hang around?
Many don't have the four or five hour long playtime sessions needed to build the NPC reagent vendors up to 999, much less the additional hours waiting on the vendors to restock each time. When I restock plant reagents it's an all day process between the stock buildup and the actual buying process. I'll pay someones higher vendor price for reagents just to avoid the boring all day process of doing it myself.
Sleep through history class in high school?
Just like those people who bash on Unions without bothering to learn why Unions were fought for in the first place. Go to your local library and do a little research on the pro's and con's of price fixing.
Yeah, you "oh-so-evil" (nice description!
) Resellers would just love the decently priced vendors to not be in the new search system wouldn't you? Then those that used the search system would only find your over-priced vendors and not be able to easily find the decently priced vendors. They came in to try UO, checked out a vendor after a few days to see about buying things to make playing more fun, saw the asinine huge prices compared to the amount of gold they get hunting, said "Oh yeah, riiigght....", and went to another game.
We are pushing for things to bring in new players, and like with this situation, trying to remove a problem that makes them leave. If you want to see new players come and stay, then stop jacking prices up so high that new players see those prices and leave.
simple example, let's take a lavaliere. market price is set anywhere from 65-85m, even with prices continuing to rise, it doesn't hurt new players, it adds incentive for them to get out and get one to sell. the higher the prices rise, the more incentive is out there to go get something worth selling.
the only thing that is keeping a player from going out and getting something that is worth this much is knowledge. once they find out it's available as an in game drop and can be easily farmed, they set out to do it with a goal in mind; get a lavaliere. this forms groups, if not guilds and a community of people who set out to make gold in game.
as prices FALL, incentive DROPS. the opposite happens and people spend less time attempting to get said items. reselling is a part of the game, it allows you to make money so you can go buy something else you need, keeping the market moving.
to say reselling hurts new players, is false. it hurts a new player that wants to buy things immediately with doing less work. players who resell have already put their work in to get the needed amount of gold to resell in the first place. if a new player sees something selling for so much, they shouldn't say "i'll never be that rich", they should be saying, "i can be rich too by going and getting this item".
when prices go up, we all win, as there is very little tax in this game. inflation only affects the player market and is not felt by the game itself such as vendor costs, player vendor costs, placing houses, or insurance costs. as prices fall, these mentioned things become harder to maintain, prices go up, they are easier to maintain.
hindering the player market does nothing but hurt the players.
the only thing that is keeping a player from going out and getting something that is worth this much is knowledge. once they find out it's available as an in game drop and can be easily farmed, they set out to do it with a goal in mind; get a lavaliere. this forms groups, if not guilds and a community of people who set out to make gold in game.
as prices FALL, incentive DROPS. the opposite happens and people spend less time attempting to get said items. reselling is a part of the game, it allows you to make money so you can go buy something else you need, keeping the market moving.
to say reselling hurts new players, is false. it hurts a new player that wants to buy things immediately with doing less work. players who resell have already put their work in to get the needed amount of gold to resell in the first place. if a new player sees something selling for so much, they shouldn't say "i'll never be that rich", they should be saying, "i can be rich too by going and getting this item".
when prices go up, we all win, as there is very little tax in this game. inflation only affects the player market and is not felt by the game itself such as vendor costs, player vendor costs, placing houses, or insurance costs. as prices fall, these mentioned things become harder to maintain, prices go up, they are easier to maintain.
hindering the player market does nothing but hurt the players.
Basara
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Again, you people are confusing ITEMS and RESOURCES.
Resources, especially ones only available through player action (even if that action includes hitting a bunch of tree stumps and ore carts), CAN be cornered to the detriment of an entire shard - especially when it's near impossible to get them in quantity without spending the whole day. Powerscrolls fall under this as well (why raid spawns when you can buy out the spawners' vendors, and double the prices - and if they raise up to your price, you do it again).
Individual rare items aren't an issue; those will always be people trying to get rich off other rich people.
Oh, and Woodsman - pot & kettle, meet mirror.... You and Dermott did a wonderful job of proving me right with your responses.
If anyone thinks having vendor penalties apply to stuff getting re-vendored by buyers within the same penalty time as the original seller is complicated, I hate to think what SIMPLE would be - probably staring at a monitor with the PC turned off.
Resources, especially ones only available through player action (even if that action includes hitting a bunch of tree stumps and ore carts), CAN be cornered to the detriment of an entire shard - especially when it's near impossible to get them in quantity without spending the whole day. Powerscrolls fall under this as well (why raid spawns when you can buy out the spawners' vendors, and double the prices - and if they raise up to your price, you do it again).
Individual rare items aren't an issue; those will always be people trying to get rich off other rich people.
Oh, and Woodsman - pot & kettle, meet mirror.... You and Dermott did a wonderful job of proving me right with your responses.
If anyone thinks having vendor penalties apply to stuff getting re-vendored by buyers within the same penalty time as the original seller is complicated, I hate to think what SIMPLE would be - probably staring at a monitor with the PC turned off.
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inflation in the market has made it so farming resources is an utter waste of time. spending 1 hour collecting resources nets nearly nothing compared to spending an hour farming a tangle, lavaliere or even powerscrolls.
sure, do it for the fun of it, but when people's main objective becomes to get money so they can buy other things they need, farming resources becomes the bottom of the totem pole.
the only resource worth putting time into farming now is fish and even then, you can farm so many of them you don't need to worry about market price.
how is it bad for market price to continue you go up? if you sell something and learn it was sold for more, why wouldn't you just sell it for more the next time you farm that material?
hindering any sort of reselling just limits market growth and still hurts nothing but the players, new or not.
like it or not, this whole game is about getting rich off other people. you farm an item, and sell it to someone to get rich. whether they sold it for the right amount is not the initial buyers fault when all you have to do is go to an illegal hosting site, see what items are selling in luna, and dictate price based on that.
how are new players hurt from resources going up in price when they themselves can use farming resources as their number one source of income as a starting player? you can mine, fish, and lumberjack for nearly no skill or risk. the price of these resources going up does nothing but help NEW players farm easy uo gold.
sure, do it for the fun of it, but when people's main objective becomes to get money so they can buy other things they need, farming resources becomes the bottom of the totem pole.
the only resource worth putting time into farming now is fish and even then, you can farm so many of them you don't need to worry about market price.
how is it bad for market price to continue you go up? if you sell something and learn it was sold for more, why wouldn't you just sell it for more the next time you farm that material?
hindering any sort of reselling just limits market growth and still hurts nothing but the players, new or not.
like it or not, this whole game is about getting rich off other people. you farm an item, and sell it to someone to get rich. whether they sold it for the right amount is not the initial buyers fault when all you have to do is go to an illegal hosting site, see what items are selling in luna, and dictate price based on that.
how are new players hurt from resources going up in price when they themselves can use farming resources as their number one source of income as a starting player? you can mine, fish, and lumberjack for nearly no skill or risk. the price of these resources going up does nothing but help NEW players farm easy uo gold.