[UO Herald] Publish 78.1 Despise Fixes

[UO News]

We have made the following fixes and changes that will be seen after maintenance tomorrow.

• We have made the following changes to the game mechanics of Dungeon Despise (Trammel)
  1. When a player damages any orb-controlled creature, that player will receive retaliatory damage
  2. Players now do less damage to orb-controlled creatures
  3. Orb-controlled creatures now receive a damage bonus against players
• Fixed issue resulting in Despise artifact distribution not rewarding players involved in killing the Despise boss.
• Fixed issue resulting in looting rights not being given to players involved in killing the Despise boss.

Continue reading...

 

[Joey Porter]

Nice quick response to the issues.

Cannot wait to head back to Despise.

 

[Promathia]

Proof that the pvp aspect is intended.

So they lessened PLAYER damage, doesnt mean someone with neg karma cant go train a pet, and then use it to kill others. That and they still can kill them lol

 

[Drowy]

Yeah, the addition "Orb controlled pets cant harm each other" is missing.

 

[Felonious Monk]

I'm wondering how field spells work with point 1

 

[Adol]

Good grief... they just don't get it do they?

"When a player damages any orb-controlled creature, that player will receive retaliatory damage"

So now no one dare use Fire Field etc in Despise, because griefers will just walk their pets through them, causing the pet to take damage and force damage done to the casting player?

And the solution to players whacking other people's pets... is to make people's pets harder, thus ensuring they only need to level theirs up, flag aggressive with a field, and let the pets wallop other players instead? Level 15 pets you won't be able to fight back against because "that player will receive retaliatory damage" on top again.

Oh, maybe the griefer will die themselves if they do that... But they'll do anything to upset "Trammies", because they're big babies who can't create in their barren lives, so they have to destroy your toys at all costs, just to feel any sort of self worth. So yes, they'll happily die to upset you. They've got their arenas for consensual fighting in Trammel; tell us how well used those are again, will you? That's not why they're in Despise now "fighting".

IF THIS IS INTENTIONAL AFTER ALL, THEN THE BASIC DESPISE IDEA IS TERRIBLE AND YOU CANT SAVE IT.

Back to the drawing board, or just switch interfering with each other off outright.

 

[Picus at the office]

Good grief... they just don't get it do they?

"When a player damages any orb-controlled creature, that player will receive retaliatory damage"

So now no one dare use Fire Field etc in Despise, because griefers will just walk their pets through them, causing the pet to take damage and force damage done to the casting player?

And the solution to players whacking other people's pets... is to make people's pets harder, thus ensuring they only need to level theirs up, flag aggressive with a field, and let the pets wallop other players instead? Level 15 pets you won't be able to fight back against because "that player will receive retaliatory damage" on top again.

Oh, maybe the griefer will die themselves if they do that... But they'll do anything to upset "Trammies", because they're big babies who can't create in their barren lives, so they have to destroy your toys at all costs, just to feel any sort of self worth. So yes, they'll happily die to upset you. They've got their arenas for consensual fighting in Trammel; tell us how well used those are again, will you? That's not why they're in Despise now "fighting".

IF THIS IS INTENTIONAL AFTER ALL, THEN THE BASIC DESPISE IDEA IS TERRIBLE AND YOU CANT SAVE IT.

Back to the drawing board, or just switch interfering with each other off outright.

I'm not trying to troll this thread but could you propose something other than mean griefer people from Fel came to ruin my party?

 

[Adol]

I'm not trying to troll this thread but could you propose something other than mean griefer people from Fel came to ruin my party?

I already did elsewhere in the last thread. But just to repeat a much better design, that literally took 1 minute of thought here again;

1.) No player versus player interaction at all in the pre-Boss stage. It's just not possible to code it in without opening the door to dickery.
2.) In the second stage, both Adrian and Andros spawn at the same time, and both karma sides fight with their pets against them, and an army of npc mobs that spawns with them. Like the old Bane V Ophidian war.
3.) First side to kill the opposing boss "wins", and gets a bonus of Hearts. But the other side can keep going to kill the boss and get a roll of artefacts too, preventing deliberate spawn manipulation just to annoy people.

That last point is debatable if it would be needed, as the Bane V Ophid war seemed to show players were prepared to fight on both sides; but then the rewards were different for that event so they had an incentive to do so. When the rewards are identical, I think you'd more likely see a larger break for Good Karma focused play, where the majority of the playerbase is; so to prevent the decent PvPers and negative karma roleplayers being forced out of the event is why I'd have artefacts drop for both (hearts being a nice, but not essential bonus). It also has the Lore justification that Andros and Adrian are locked into a fight neither can win or ultimately escape from; they always both die and the fight starts again.

 

[kelmo]

This fix is not even live yet?

 

[Adol]

This fix is not even live yet?

It's not. But which part of the patch notes are you saying are likely to be wrong? Do you think they meant to say "Players can't be damaged at all" instead? I don't think you do, and I certainly don't assume they're posting their intentions dishonestly; what they've written is now obviously what they intended Despise to be. So my point is, and always has been as soon as I saw how the new Despise works, that the design itself is fatally flawed. Unless you think that players want others to have a way to non-consensually damage them personally on a Trammel facet?

Pet v Pet fights might have been acceptable, if it didn't influence ability to progress towards material rewards... but the patch notes are nowhere close to that. It just states there will be penalties for an action they're clearly designing for; the ability of people to kill your pets and, under certain conditions and at a certain cost, to kill you too... which is a remarkably odd way to celebrate 15 years of a game that tried to find penalties and in the end realised none would ever be strong enough, and had to make Trammel in the first place.

 

[Picus of Napa]

So it's only really about someone stopping your farming the rewards?

Even you say it was designed this way so don't complain about other players doing as per the design of the game at the very least complain about the poor way it was structured but don't say it's some mean person. If you wanted to you could just as well do the same back to them but clearly the only thing that is really at issue is the delay in getting your rewards.

 

[G.v.P]

Hm well it's kind of what the devs want to do though, change things slightly while maintaining what they put out originally as to not bend entirely to the will of the forum. That way we get a carrot--in this case a slight adjustment to the pets--and they maintain control. I'm not sure what side I'm on, now.

Despise is going to be a niche much like Covetous. We really don't have enough players on most shards for these mini-games to last, that's just the truth of the matter. For most, farming won't be too much of an issue. The desire to farm isn't there for a lot of people because of the ephemeral state of the Wisp items, so then it's a matter of whether people want the artifacts or not. I think, for the people who don't want to farm, the level up grind is enough to make the majority not want to farm the boss.

 

[kelmo]

Just saying... Let's see how this plays out.

 

[Bazer]

also annoying when your pet is fighting by a gate and someone else walks threw it can drag your pet threw as well

 

[Basara]

Don't forget there are ones out there that will train up a pet to mid-levels, then move it to a low-monster-traffic area and let it level itself up unattended - Several times I saw pets that were orb-possessed, levels 8-10, anchored to a point, with the owner nowhere around - but placed where any PC that wandered into the area of the same alignment of the level would get toasted if they didn't have a pet with them and couldn't invis. For an hour or two, it was almost impossible for anyone to get to the good shrine without ducking into one of the 3 evil side entrances not by the shrine, running through the spawn, and coming through the portal to the shrine that way - usually being pursued.

And that's on a low population shard.

My guess is that the owners went back to the entrance area where they were not subject to attack, hid, and had something set up to keep them from time-outs.

 

[phantus]

What we don't want to lose sight on here is the system is something new and something unique. Let's give them some time and feedback and work from there. It's obvious with the quick fixes they intend to try and make it work. Although, I have to share Adol's fear of someone using a mechanic(firefield etc) against a player being a key issue that remains to be resolved.

I am surprised there was no mention of the player vs player potential of this system beforehand if it was truly intended. The community reaction would have to have been expected if they pay any attention to us at all. Communication is always the key. Has Messanna made any statements to the validity of intention or not?

 

[NBG]

- Orb-controlled creatures now receive a damage bonus against players

Hmmm, so before it was players kill other side's pets and now it gets changed to what? Level 15 Trammel PK gang of 2-3 players with lvl 15 caster pets setting pets to aggressive around opposing side players and bank killings someone in couple seconds?

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

"Non-consensual PvP" in Trammel is an awful can of worms to have opened. Just say'n.

 

[LordDrago]

"Non-consensual PvP" in Trammel is an awful can of worms to have opened. Just say'n.

+1

 

[Frarc]

Too much speculation going on. Have to see how it works when its live.


Its interesting how some people always think the worse from people on their shards first.
I''m glad i play on a smaller shard with a closer community.

 

[LordDrago]

Its interesting how some people always think the worse from people on their shards first.
I''m glad i play on a smaller shard with a closer community.

Not much point in "thinking" the worse of people when direct observations confirm it.
PKs, interested in griefing other players by killing their orb-controlled creatures. Nobody training the opposite aligned creatures, so it was not so they could get an opportunity to heed the call to arms.

Sure, they make a claim that they are "roleplaying" an evil character...of course, that is no more "roleplaying" than if I "roleplayed" an inept but zealous Paladin who bites off more than he could chew, and runs from a fight, unfortunately leading the creatures to someone else who dies...sorry, I was "roleplaying"

Given the chance, a vast majority of the playerbase left this playstyle in the dust. PvPers who actually like combat and not griefing, should have opportunities to do so. In my opinion, attempting to force the two playstyles together, is a poor decision.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I suggest we wait and see how this actually works in practice.

Adol - why do you actually want to cast fire field? I would consider all field spells to be more hinderance than help for legit players? When this was on test I never saw anyone cast any fields. I am genuinely puzzled as to why you would.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Field spells have been proven problematic in Despise.
Why anyone would want to cast field spells?
Because they can.
If you consider all field spells to be more hinderance than help, I think the question answers itself.
Describing a Legit player becomes moot.
I think Kelmo reminded us recently some people play the game to break it.
Again simply because they can.
15 years and running.
What a trip, A?

 

[Petra Fyde]

I know field spells have been used by the 'vandals' in the game - the sort of mentality that goes around breaking park benches RL. Adol isn't one, so I couldn't think why the heck he'd want to.

 

[Felonious Monk]

I'm not trying to be vain. I think Adol followed post #5 in this thread with good question and elaborated on his opinions.
In my mind this isn't even about griefing. We're talking about code and what is possible in regards to how the code is written.
We know resources are tight. Didn't know the players had become q&a as well as full blown testers of this publish to THIS extent.
On prodo shards yet
The publish was on tc and origin and still has this many glitches.
I am glad however there is uo to be played.
Getting a wee bit hairy.

 

[G.v.P]

The publish was on tc and origin and still has this many glitches.

I think we did our best. A few people posted concerns on the TC Forum, and I know I tried to voice my concerns early and often here on UHall. Even so, I think the real problem is the devs' intent, or whether or not they wanted this mini-game to be so chaotic.

It's actually kind of strange. On one hand, they gave us harpsichord scrolls which pop into our pack--something I REALLY like. Who wants to dig through corpses when you can have the item pop into your bag? On the other hand, they created this arbitrary system in which unintentionally griefing discourages a mini-game which is already at a disadvantage because a lot of people just don't want to bother with temporary rewards. And I apologize for being redundant, but why can't boss fights scale? There's absolutely no reason to make a boss fight require more than one player other than to highlight the fact that we don't have enough players playing this game in order to have player interaction at off-peak hours.

 

[G.v.P]

In short, here's my laundry list:

-Have Wisps be treated like regular trammel pets: eats pet treats, no Trammel flag issues, full commands, one follower slot. If not, please at least tell us there was a technical limitation which required an alternative system!
-Create more ankhs on Evil side. An extra multi or two couldn't hurt.
-Scale boss HP per army power level so the fight is solo-accessible as well as group-accessible. There's no reason to have a boss fight you can't solo if the instance is timed and given a delay between fights. If someone is going to train up a Wisp every time then hey, what's the big deal? The odds are always going to be artificially limited.

 

[Frarc]

I don't think its now wise to cast a field spell on other players pets. They might end up very death themself.

 

[T-Hunt]

We have made the following fixes and changes that will be seen after maintenance tomorrow.

• We have made the following changes to the game mechanics of Dungeon Despise (Trammel)
  1. When a player damages any orb-controlled creature, that player will receive retaliatory damage
  2. Players now do less damage to orb-controlled creatures
  3. Orb-controlled creatures now receive a damage bonus against players
• Fixed issue resulting in Despise artifact distribution not rewarding players involved in killing the Despise boss.
• Fixed issue resulting in looting rights not being given to players involved in killing the Despise boss.

Continue reading...

So players with good pet who love to camp evil side orb ank will get extra damage from greifers pets?
And the ones who stay at the start or entrance to the dungeon to greif players can do this with no problem at all..
Kind of half ass backwards dont you think?

Move the orb spawn anks to the stairs before the dungeon evil or good side..
That may help some of the greifing going on...

 

[Picus of Napa]

I think the issue here is people see something to complain about which has limited real downside but can be caught onto very well.

 

[Promathia]

lol goodluck running by someones pet if you are opposite karma

 

[Picus at the office]

I see no personal enjoyment from this grind and, if wanted, I would rather farm other stuff to purchase the arty's that I might want. At best in another three weeks I suspect that a small group can do this at will with no one else around no matter what the shard.

 

[Frarc]

lol goodluck running by someones pet if you are opposite karma

I run or fly a lot faster then anyones pet can follow me.

You already needs to watch out for opposite karma monsters anyway.

 

[Adol]

I know field spells have been used by the 'vandals' in the game - the sort of mentality that goes around breaking park benches RL. Adol isn't one, so I couldn't think why the heck he'd want to.

It isn't about me; you have to design for all user experiences, and Despise is still geographically going to be a newbie attracting dungeon due to it's location near the capital city, as well as fond memories from it's previous role.... You and I might know not to cast Fire Field, but does every player? How about when the Evil mobs have low resistance to cold... but the Good karma are weak to Fire? Further more, I use it as an example; any Area of Effect spell risks the same problem. Earthquake for instance is often used as a simple way to grab aggro to a lot of mobs quickly, followed by an Invisibility to transfer aggro to a pet. That would have been a legitimate tactic for a pet you can't control directly...

What's being done instead is trying to get players single targeting mobs in the hopes that, due to bad dungeon design, it's the only way to filter for non-selfish players; the theory seems to be only those who want to annoy others will be using things which target wildly. But it's the equivalent of banning magic casting pets, or bows and crossbows, because a ranged game play mechanic can't work with the rules as they currently are; in your example of park benches, it's making the benches out of bonfire toffee and then having to make all kinds of strange zoning rules to explain why no one is allowed to lick the benches in that particular spot, but you can also buy your own toffee from the shops and lick merrily away in your home.

Back to why I mentioned Fire Field... It can actually be manipulated too; it's effectively a stationary summons, so it can be dispelled, it does slow tick damage over time so there's a higher chance you can heal through it, and it can be cast and then the player can move away out of visible sight whilst leaving a pet leashed nearby to do the fighting when someone aggros to the field.
Let's say casting this becomes the obvious sign of a griefer... everyone knows only idiots cast fire fields in Despise. Then I meet a newbie; hey, you want to know a real easy way to level up your magery?! Go to Despise, fire field the mobs there, tonnes of skill gains! The very best that can happen, if the Devs have made it 1000 points of damage to every 1 point you do to another, is he gets blown up by his own spells... and his reputation ruined because people think only idiots cast AoE in Despise.

It's just leaving way too many hostages to fortune because of bad understanding of player psychology, and bad mechanics design.

 

[Adol]

So it's only really about someone stopping your farming the rewards?

Even you say it was designed this way so don't complain about other players doing as per the design of the game at the very least complain about the poor way it was structured but don't say it's some mean person. If you wanted to you could just as well do the same back to them but clearly the only thing that is really at issue is the delay in getting your rewards.

So you ask for an alternative, which is provided to you including the very thing you say was not, a critique of how the design has been implemented, but you then ignore that completely to rush straight past that to tediously wibble on with the same old tired assumptions about Trammel players? Projection of Napa be more likely thy name.

However for some people, let's be honest, yes the ability to get rewards is an issue; and I'm sorry that it has to be explained to you 15 years after the game launched, and after every MMO afterwards abandoned the ability of people to destroy the hard work of others (and yes, I've played EvE. I never got ganked in High Sec once in 2 months, including after can-flipping by mistake), but that's a seriously off putting thing for most casual and light hearted gamers. "Progression As Addiction" is Day 1 in gaming design. What's staggering to me is that the Devs don't seem to have realised this either...

Now personally, I've not been back since the first day, when after someone trying to grief me (and failing; he used Energy Shields at first to try and trap the pet, and then tried to release mobs around me) I proceeded to do what you suggest and fight back to the next who tried killing everyone's pets... again though, I'm sorry this has to be explained, but most of us hate doing that because we truly believe only morally weak people get their kicks that way. I had a grim smile maybe as Mr Grief chased me around Despise, threatening to make my life a misery for ever and ever there because I'd blown up his Level 10 pet before he could get my L4 down to half health, but that was about it. I didn't particularly feel like going back even though I'd technically "won" the PvP contest.
It also didn't help that the PvM part didn't work either, when I was teleported to the second level, my pet got stuck behind a pile of skulls and couldn't move. So I've not been back since. You see, again... it's not about the items as such. Notice in my quick outline above, I actually want to positively support anyone who honestly wants to play Despise in a productive way; but in doing that of course my own items, if I had any, would lose relative worth as the market gets flooded. But who cares? It's not a zero sum game unless you're so miserly of heart you make it so.
No, that's not my complaint at all. It's about inviting Mr BadCode and Mr BadSmell into our living rooms; it makes the game so much less enjoyable in principle. And people have enough genuine horror in their real lives to want to poison their free time with their company too.

 

[Promathia]

Soooo getting a pet to level 15 and killing people is pretty easy lolol

 

[Felonious Monk]

No need to "risk" Fel.
Gotta wonder if this code is implemented for that reason to "Spice up" the game.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Barding seems wide open too simulating to pets can be barded on to players.
Interesting.......

 

[Adol]

Soooo getting a pet to level 15 and killing people is pretty easy lolol

I'm afraid so. I've not had the time to fully test this, as I've been off on the City of Heroes closure protests in game when I've had free time, and I'm not willing to test on people who are unwilling to be attacked in the name of Science... but Nimuaq and I did a little experimenting before we got pulled in by a Call To Arms, and the rough details seem to be this;

1.) Reflection of damage appears to be about 40-60% above damage taken, so a Level 10 pet with approximately 500 hit points (depending on type) will easily out-tank any player attempt to kill it... in theory it should be possible to kill it with player damage all the same but in practice it's going to be too difficult I think.
2.) Direct damage fields, such as Fire Field do reflected damage. Indirect fields like Poison won't reflect damage, or possibly at 70s resist armor you won't take any. However each tick of poison and each stepping into the field will reveal you if you are hidden.
3.) Pets will automatically go for the damaging player when he attacks them, turning them grey still. And they hit HARD at high levels. I was taking 40-50 hit point damage from Nim's L8 pet with all 70s armor

Here come the parts I wasn't willing to test on the innocent...

4.) I'm not sure if turning a pet grey flags the pet also to a Party or Guild of players too.
5.) I don't know yet if your attacking a Player's pet allows your own pet to go for theirs, or for the player themselves. If it does, you can now PK in Trammel pretty easily as suggested with a L15 pet. Never conscript it and it'll never go to Call To Arms either.
6.) Any attempt to attack the pet which is attacking yours will more than likely kill you instead. This will happen irrelevant of the previous points, due to point 1.
7.) And here's the loophole I suspected was there; even if you can't get the pet to go for the player, either through automatic attacks or from him wildly shooting the pet attacking his, you can prevent anyone getting any pets to the opposite Karma zone by leashing a L15 pet, set to Aggressive, to either the moongate or to something nearby. Cast poison field all over the gate so anyone coming through instantly flags to the pet, and it gets killed by the L15 waiting. Move off screen so you can't be targetted by lots of pets coming through at once, and the poison fields won't reflect any damage back towards you.

As I say, this needs to be tested still, but if I have time tonight I'll get some volunteers to try and run the gates at a quiet time for the server and see if I can confirm how much annoyance or even death is possible...

 

[Ludes]

Barding seems wide open too simulating to pets can be barded on to players.
Interesting.......

Can you elaborate on this? Took my bard/mage there and don't see what your saying here..
I grabbed a monster and tried to provoke it on a friend and it wouldn't.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Fixed then.
I haven't been back to Despise.
Nothing to see here..........
These aren't the droids your looking for
Move along..........

 

[claudia-fjp]

Ugh, just had another one despawn on us after the 3rd person died. Couple problems I see overall, you either have too few and timeout because the wisp spawns infinitely pulling dps off the boss. Anchoring should work like All Kill imo. The other end you have too many people and some people's pets can't even reach the boss due to the fact they can't push through.

The next time I did it, I was sent in alone...

 

[Ludes]

Fixed then.
I haven't been back to Despise.
Nothing to see here..........
These aren't the droids your looking for
Move along..........

Dude you have to put your hand up in a blessing type gesture to make that work..

 

[slayer888]

Let's turn Despise into Felucca ruleset for 1 week and see!

Come on! Do it do it! It's gonna be fair for everyone then

"You mess with my pet, either you die or I die, period."

I wanna see how many people would cry

Especially in my shard, those cowards who only hide in Trammel and yap their mouth, I really wanna check out their reaction by then

 

[SlobberKnocker]

nice try. they wouldnt step foot in despise for that week. same as the guard zone hugging losers on chessy that think its funny to grief.

 

[Joey Porter]

Let's turn Despise into Felucca ruleset for 1 week and see!

Come on! Do it do it! It's gonna be fair for everyone then

"You mess with my pet, either you die or I die, period."

I wanna see how many people would cry

Especially in my shard, those cowards who only hide in Trammel and yap their mouth, I really wanna check out their reaction by then

This would be awesome. Alternate it, one week on, one week off.