Penalizing Pvpers

[Gary Rendol]

Where are these people coming from? This is NOT WOW if you came from WOW and like those rules go back. This is ULTIMA F***ING ONLINE! Do not try to dilute this great amazing experience by bringing in ideas from thats 3d crap fest. If you came back to UO from there its for a reason.

 

[SpyderBite]

Now Trammel was likely in the works... But Siege did come first.

I could have swore it was post trammel, but going over some old archived google pages; it seems you're both right. I didn't move to Siege until after the split so I must've confused the two.

Regardless, it's been an option for a very long time. Certainly long enough that it might have been a better option for the OP than waiting it out this long and getting him/herself in to the pickle they're in now.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

You are not being penalized for PvPing you are being penalized for killing somone who was't out there with the intent to be your toy. There are MANY ways to PvP without murdering people. And with 7 char slots you VERY recently in the UO timeframe decided to make your last 2 chars murders.


You are NOT being penalized for PvPing you are being penalized for attacking player who did not want to have to deal with being attacked without provocation or challenge.

i agree 100%, maybe more.
it seems developers gone out of their way to ensure you'll know that it's a bad path you take.
i just wonder why those that did so anyways would have to make such extraordinary trips/changes to get their counts worked off.
is it good that a toon should have a sit-out and wait sanction, i say yes, it should .

my idea for control would be based on the murder count total
EXample's. jure's just mast starting ideas... would all need work only for [only Non-SP shards for now]

sit out periods
can't call guards, can't attack in PVP not even in self defense
all npc items to have a modified, cost as would vendors
guards who will kill you w/o another thought.
cumulative skill/other loss.
the just a ton of ways that could be brought in to reverse a direction.
'by the book', wait 100hr, what ever, is 1 step below a penalty waiting to be born.
and when that one is born, so is a new macroer, so i place the blame on the dev, in that 'that was the best way?, best you could come up with?

 

[Vlaude]

The last time I went red was helping my guild mates on Chesapeake defend our champ spawn. Did the players I killed want to fight? Not immediately. They would have rather let us finish the spawn and then fight afterwards, or just keep the scrolls that they barely broke a sweat earning. These are the kinds of choices that are made in Fel nowadays. People rarely go around whacking lonely miners out on the mountainsides, although most of them deserve it since they are scripting

I agree with letting red characters into Trammel.

 

[Gushy Shorty]

Ok, alot of you just seem to be haters! I am constantly reading..."you knew the consequences of going red....", well ya know what.....everyone knew the consequences of being a non-red. Thats a two way street there. I always hear and see.."I hate this, that Fu$$er killed me." And yes, I say it also but at least there are some reds out there who want to go blue, maybe think of it as now he/she can be a red PKer!?!?!?!?! But Noooooo, have to just bash the red guy who just wants the opertunity to PAY to be turned blue. pfft..*******s.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

The thing is that when Non-Con pvp land got seperated then all pvp became consensual. You consent to it when you go to fel. End thread/

 

[Viper09]

Ok, alot of you just seem to be haters! I am constantly reading..."you knew the consequences of going red....", well ya know what.....everyone knew the consequences of being a non-red. Thats a two way street there. I always hear and see.."I hate this, that Fu$$er killed me." And yes, I say it also but at least there are some reds out there who want to go blue, maybe think of it as now he/she can be a red PKer!?!?!?!?! But Noooooo, have to just bash the red guy who just wants the opertunity to PAY to be turned blue. pfft..*******s.

While I agree with reds being able to enter tram (with no pvp) I must ask, what exactly are the consequences of being "non-red" (blue)?

 

[Gushy Shorty]

Example: if a blue needs a PS they would need to go to Fel to fight the Champ Spawns, in which they would have a higher chance of being killed. Blues are more likely to get killed "faster" in Fel. Another is if a blue joins a guild, something happens in rl and u have to go afk without logging out, a guildie can come along and kill you, before you get back your body and belongings may decay. Point being there are downsides to being either. Still, they should concider a pay to change 1 char on an account. Benificial to all parties invoved.

 

[DJAd]

He just soulstoned his skills, deleted a character and then made a new one. Had to work the stats up but that really isn't that hard and as you pointed out, scrolls are easy enough.

I totally agree with this. You got an account full of red players?! Delete one and make a new char. It's pretty simple.

 

[MissEcho]

This whole thread is a crock. I have a few accounts, I really SHOULD have put a tamer on my second account, but I didn't. So am I gonna complain about my choice of what chars I made on it, NO. I will stone off the skills, delete the char, create a new one with same name, only with taming and or will use an advanced token, put the same armor on that was taken from the original char, get the same +25 stat scroll and other scrolls I need and the ONLY thing I will need to do is regain the stats. Big Deal.

You want a blue, then sheesh, just make one, stop whining about it. Or just do what others have said, xshard it and make another.

You have NOT been penalized in any way. *shakes head at how ridiculous that claim is*

 

[Driven Insane]

This is a pretty dumb thread, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I currently have 2 perma red chars that have enough murder counts that I'd have to idle in game for the next 15 years in order to go blue again (picked up a few more counts doing a Fel IDOC earlier today!!!) and I don't give a rat's ass if they ever go to Tram. The only PVM I do on them is champs and Harrowers. They're set up to kill intelligent players with 100-150 hps, not dumb monsters with 1000000 hps. If I want to PvM I switch to a char set up to kill those dumb monsters.

7 Red chars, hmmm....... a little self control maybe?

BUT

I have 2 major problems with the red/blue system:

1. There is no such thing as nonconsentual PvP in UO!!! You get a message whenever you enter Fel saying so. If you go to Fel you're agreeing to that land's ruleset which says you can and probably will be attacked. Most reds didn't go red killing babies and lost noobs. They went red being loyal to their guild and fighting for their friends. If you don't PvP (or haven't since post-tram) then you have no idea how Fel works these days.

2. It divides the player base and the community. Reds are not horrible people who kill everything that moves. Most reds have blues, you know that guy that rezzed you yesterday and helped you get your corpse in the Abyss? Probably a red gathering some resources.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I have recently quit playing UO.. most likely for good, however I felt I should comment on the reason for quitting a game I played for quite a long time. STOP PENALIZING PVP.

I played UO to pvp.. that's all I ever did in UO, I never got to play 95% of the game because I pvp. The day I started UO until the day I quit I played in Fel. All of my toons are red, with 100+ counts on my "youngest" . I'm not bragging or what ever, i'm just stating the facts. 99% of people would not have an account like this, I however do. I also understand and understood at the time, the rules of being a pvper. At the time I made this decision finding people to fight was not hard. Things change however...

I emailed, called and in general just bitched to EA/Bioware whoever it is that takes my money, to see if I could PAY MONEY to turn my main character blue so that I could PLAY THE TRAMMEL CONTENT IVE BEEN PAYING AND UPDATING FOR YEARS! I was told we do not offer that service. I considered making a T hunter and farming pardons, but that could take years, and my main red has tons of counts. I want to try pvming, I want to tame pets, check out tokuno islands, malas, the abyss etc.

There is no reason to penalize pvp these days. I don't see why a "red" can't get turned into a "blue" and applied a fake name tag (think theif disguise kit) and be allowed to enter trammel. No one knows who this "murderer" is, the said "murderer" gets to play the game.

I am curious if anyone still feels that pvp/pking results in extreme amounts of frustration and a general feeling of not wanting to play uo? I havn't had someone's suit drop in years. Hell, I havn't found any "non" pvpers in fel in the past few years. The worst case is you do happen to loose all your gear, you can go imbue a new suit in what an hour? Then with faction gear the lose is even less significant, and you have a 20 minute time out to replace it. The 120 scroll thing is dead to me, but lets say that is still the number one arguement... there are so many EMPTY servers that you could almost pick a server and go farm scrolls without being bothered. I think trying to hold the 120s over the reds is wayy past dead at this point.

SO really what are we penalizing pvpers for? Because I prefer my opponent to be the smartest most intelligent opponent I can find in a game I an penalized? I have given up on attempting to get my account changed. I just feel very strongly about this and it is the reason I have moved on to new games. Penalizing people for fighting each other is needed when it results in harrasment and griefing. The way UO is now the reason for penalizing pvp is due to not giving a ****/lazyness or not knowing how to. Either way it's not worth my time or my money.

The solution to your problem is totally in your hands. Go farm the scrolls that are so easy to get (or buy them) , put your characters skills on soulstones, fill a box with the skills, scrolls and the character's armor etc. Leave it in your house, Delete character, make a new one. Eat the scrolls, put the skills on. Done.

 

[yanaki2]

sorry phangs but the facts are VERY MUCH AGAINST UR CLAIM. No pvp is not what made this game not in the least bit, yes in some ways it was a very close part of the early game but it was NEVER the focus of the game and has done more harm then good. tell me of one mmo out there that has non consentual pvp as its focus that has survived?? the answer is NONE! period end of story.

ultima online was first developed with kinda a old west mentality, you had good guys and bad guys, bad guys killed people and when they did enough turned red, the good guys hunted them down, protecting there comrades and collected the bounties from turning in the heads of the "bad guys" . but yuo didnt have to just watch out for the "bad guys" cause anyone could end up stabbing you in the back...in some ways it was exciting.but the game EVOLVED

the real problem with pvp in uo though is largely to be blamed on the pvpers, some justified some not so much. sure the excuse that there is no one left to pk , why is that? ohh yea because you drove them all away...and many who would like to pvp well when you have to deal with a ton of 3 year old minded little brats with there speed hacks, invuln hacks and a countless drove of other illegal programs that give them that nice little edge without the punishment from uo for doing it it kinda takes the excitement of it.

yes to do pvp on a LEVEL playing field is kinda fun, done it for years, i have 3 reds with thousands of counts on them of course they are 12+ years old charicters. pvp got less fun with the hacks and cheats and the children who think there cool cause a program lets them kill you without any real effort. but to those people that think pvp is the main focus of uo... GET OVER YOURSELVES!

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Ok, alot of you just seem to be haters!

/this. as i read more and more, it just reminds me of a certain song played in Lion King sound track
"Can't ya feel the hate tonight?"

 

[Sevin0oo0]

another about those who wish to go Blue.... what if they lose skill stat cap - all the way back to GM. First would be from scrolls found specifically in Tram.

Maybe
you have to sell/give away some tram scrolls (which Must actually be eaten by another player), to show your loyalty to the Blue crowd.
more ways 'back'. didn't say easy, but it should be representative of the crimes.
combined punishments could be added. so maybe they don't have
lots of things could be done to help deter, and there are, but only a Few - i say add a few more, plus end macro your way out - that should give you a 24/72hr award.

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm not really seeing this as a red/blue issue. More of a 'who fixes a wrong decision'. If I make a wrong decision I attempt to fix it myself. Sometimes the solution causes some inconvenience, but I rarely, if ever, expect someone else to fix my mistakes for me. This decision is fixable by the OP. There is no real need for precious development time to be dedicated to providing him with a nice painless 'quick fix'.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Seriously tho I'm not gonna make a new account to play when I have multiple completed characters! Just the wrong color.. to play.. 98% of UO..

To the OP, should be easy to see; few care because it doesn't directly affect them. some would ratherhave the time spent for a dye

 

[Winker]

The solution to your problem is totally in your hands. Go farm the scrolls that are so easy to get (or buy them) , put your characters skills on soulstones, fill a box with the skills, scrolls and the character's armor etc. Leave it in your house, Delete character, make a new one. Eat the scrolls, put the skills on. Done.

My Red has a personal Bless bless deed, and he is 12 years old. I would not delete him just to make a blue due to the bless deed and the age of the old boy. He has 1600+ murder counts and will never be blue unless a reprive is given to Reds.

But with that said i dont want my Red to be blue, im just saying why one person may not want to delete their Red character

 

[weins201]

Example: if a blue needs a PS they would need to go to Fel to fight the Champ Spawns, in which they would have a higher chance of being killed. Blues are more likely to get killed "faster" in Fel. Another is if a blue joins a guild, something happens in rl and u have to go afk without logging out, a guildie can come along and kill you, before you get back your body and belongings may decay. Point being there are downsides to being either. Still, they should concider a pay to change 1 char on an account. Benificial to all parties invoved.

What guild are you in were you kill AFK people you know, prob not a very big one? I don't know of anyone who would tolerate this, and all the guild I do know work like hell to ID the killer and remove them. If that is your play style then you would not last long as a blue as you would just find some way to grief people around you and not have the "FUN" you like.

 

[SlobberKnocker]

the original poster was one of the first people i met in this game. i have played along side him for many a year. he always viewed pvp as the end game of UO and was constantly tinkering with templates that served that end. if he made a tamer he was looking for a pet that would be suited for pvp. if he made an alchemist you can bet it was to see how to do the most damage to a player via thowing pots. he was one of the most astute spell casters in uo, especially on a necro mage where he played countless hours studying strategy on what counters were best depending on what spells his opponent was casting.

this guy would literally make a new char and goto yew gate where he would die hundreds of times over by working on different combos to see what was most effective. i know most of his characters from day one when i stepped foot in this game and farming forged pardons to get one of them blue would be a full time undertaking.

of course he can stone skills off and make a new char or buy a transfer token and send one of his perma reds to balhae to retire but why does he have to? uo would probably do well economically to sell a ''blue token'' for those who wish to buy it.

the bottom line here is that uo is losing another vet due to his disenchantment with the game. also know that this guy was never one to hook up with the zerg du jour on the chessy shard. most of his kills were probably of the solo variety. in my opinion uo could use more guys like him.

the majority of the players i encounter in fel these days run at the sight of a red, unless they have numbers to back them up. i see quite a few guys that will not even show up at a fight unless they have a crew with them. i've been with this guy 2 v 10 at harry's where we kept going back for more despite the odds, and you know what.... those were some of the best kills we have gotten. theres nothing like picking a few off when your out numbered.

end of story is uo is losing a very well schooled competent player.

 

[Surgeries]

If a player quits because they have turned every single char they have Red, and doesn't love the game enough to start a second account ($120 a year total if paid in 6 month increments) so that they can PvM on a Blue Char...then I say their "Love" for the game is too superficial, and they should maybe go play Eve...otherwise, they would certainly just start a new account, and show restraint in killing Blues on that account ONLY. Then they have seven full Reds they can go whack Blues with, and they can go to Tram on their Blues from account #2.

That is unless the person already has a second account that is completely Red...then they might want to reconsider how they play UO, if their sincere desire is to go to Tram on a Blue.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Example: if a blue needs a PS they would need to go to Fel to fight the Champ Spawns, Nope. Vendors are how many of us still get power scrolls.in which they would have (zero chances of even seeing a pk) a higher chance of being killed. Blues are more likely to get killed "faster" in Fel. Another is if a blue joins a guild, something happens in rl and u have to go afk without logging out, a guildie can come along and kill you, before you get back your body and belongings may decay. To me this suggests your impulsive and don't plan well and if your guildies kill you while your afk mebbe you joined the wrong guild. Dunno dude just sayin. Point being there are downsides to being either. Still, they should concider a pay to change 1 char on an account. Benificial to all parties invoved.[/quote
You want to change a fifteen year old rule for those reasons? Since the beginning of uo reds cant go into towns and I see the tram rule as an extension of the town rule. Reds have a large area in game to use. I don't see changing the rule because you didn't have the vision to keep one blue chr.

 

[Felonious Monk]

the original poster was one of the first people i met in this game. i have played along side him for many a year. he always viewed pvp as the end game of UO and was constantly tinkering with templates that served that end. if he made a tamer he was looking for a pet that would be suited for pvp. if he made an alchemist you can bet it was to see how to do the most damage to a player via thowing pots. he was one of the most astute spell casters in uo, especially on a necro mage where he played countless hours studying strategy on what counters were best depending on what spells his opponent was casting.

this guy would literally make a new char and goto yew gate where he would die hundreds of times over by working on different combos to see what was most effective. i know most of his characters from day one when i stepped foot in this game and farming forged pardons to get one of them blue would be a full time undertaking.

of course he can stone skills off and make a new char or buy a transfer token and send one of his perma reds to balhae to retire but why does he have to? uo would probably do well economically to sell a ''blue token'' for those who wish to buy it.

the bottom line here is that uo is losing another vet due to his disenchantment with the game. also know that this guy was never one to hook up with the zerg du jour on the chessy shard. most of his kills were probably of the solo variety. in my opinion uo could use more guys like him.

the majority of the players i encounter in fel these days run at the sight of a red, unless they have numbers to back them up. i see quite a few guys that will not even show up at a fight unless they have a crew with them. i've been with this guy 2 v 10 at harry's where we kept going back for more despite the odds, and you know what.... those were some of the best kills we have gotten. theres nothing like picking a few off when your out numbered.

end of story is uo is losing a very well schooled competent player.

Because that play style is almost non existent in uo now.

 

[Gorbs]

My opinion is that many of the anti-Felucca zealots make comments on these boards routinely that are every bit as much an attempt to "grief" other players as the in game pking of players.

He had a choice to stay blue on characters, move characters, delete characters, etc. He's not really quitting because he can't bring his red to trammel. He's quitting for a multitude of reasons which have been posted before. What you should take away from the post is that everyone wants to see their play style enhanced or at least supported. To try to head the trolls off, he wasn't looking for defenseless sheeps, ripe for slaughter.

 

[Joey Porter]

I still think the best answer to most of these arguments is to decide based on how things would have really been back in Medieval times. If you were a murderer would you be allowed in Cities? Would you be welcomed into the kings castle? No, you are a murderer, an outcast. You would have had a price on your head and life would have been difficult based on the decision you made. Also if you were a good guy back then and traveled away from your safe zone into the woods or distant lands you ran the risk of being murdered, robbed, or eaten by a dragon, and rightly so.

I have no problem with reds being in Tram but they should not be allowed in the safe zones. Cities, houses etc and no PKing.

I am not a red but I used to be back in the day were there were bounties on heads and stat loss if you got killed and loved the thrill of that. I also enjoy going to fell and getting into it with reds, just cannot stand spending 30 min beating on a champ spawn to get raided while I have 4 monsters on me. Lame.

I wish there was more legitimate red/blue PvP but the way it is now I can go to Fel solo and run around and pretty much never find anyone to fight. Only time it happens is at the end of champs.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Like others have said before. The whole "Red=EVIL" "Blue=GOOD" is horse ****. My very first red was back in 1997, and you know how he went Red? Not by killing players, but by killing Wandering Healers. Know what happened to him? He eventually got deleted, due to severe permanent stat loss because i was being rez killed repeatedly by blues who camped out on the doorstep of a Large Tower at the Chaos Shrine 24/7. Yep, that's right, blues were griefing. It's actually quite common, even nowadays.

When UO first launched, Richard Garriot saw UO as a social experiment. He wanted to see if the people would stick to a "virtuous" playstyle, or descend into "hedonism" given no RL consequences. What he saw was akin to the "Old West". Groups of people formed to plunder and raid, while groups of people formed to protect. Richard Garriot was intrigued with what he saw. However, once Everquest launched in 1999, and player's who enjoyed PvM over PvP began flocking to it, EA basically cut short Richard Garriot's experiment, and had Trammel introduced to attempt to gain back the lost players.

Nowadays however, PvP/PKing is no longer seen as a "anti social behavior", but more as a sport. Hell, even the biggest carebear game out there, WoW, not only does not penalize it's players for killing each other, but it actually rewards them with PvP currency with each kill. Hell, Blizzard even holds televised Tournament events for their Starcraft and WoW franchises. "Skilled" PvPers in those games, can even get sponsors and get paid RL cash for PvPing. It's now an e-sport.
I see no problem whatsoever with allowing "reds" into Trammel ruleset lands, so long as they can't PK there.

 

[Surgeries]

Like others have said before. The whole "Red=EVIL" "Blue=GOOD" is horse ****. My very first red was back in 1997, and you know how he went Red? Not by killing players, but by killing Wandering Healers. Know what happened to him? He eventually got deleted, due to severe permanent stat loss because i was being rez killed repeatedly by blues who camped out on the doorstep of a Large Tower at the Chaos Shrine 24/7. Yep, that's right, blues were griefing. It's actually quite common, even nowadays.

When UO first launched, Richard Garriot saw UO as a social experiment. He wanted to see if the people would stick to a "virtuous" playstyle, or descend into "hedonism" given no RL consequences. What he saw was akin to the "Old West". Groups of people formed to plunder and raid, while groups of people formed to protect. Richard Garriot was intrigued with what he saw. However, once Everquest launched in 1999, and player's who enjoyed PvM over PvP began flocking to it, EA basically cut short Richard Garriot's experiment, and had Trammel introduced to attempt to gain back the lost players.

Nowadays however, PvP/PKing is no longer seen as a "anti social behavior", but more as a sport. Hell, even the biggest carebear game out there, WoW, not only does not penalize it's players for killing each other, but it actually rewards them with PvP currency with each kill. Hell, Blizzard even holds televised Tournament events for their Starcraft and WoW franchises. "Skilled" PvPers in those games, can even get sponsors and get paid RL cash for PvPing. It's now an e-sport.
I see no problem whatsoever with allowing "reds" into Trammel ruleset lands, so long as they can't PK there.

The problem with your comparison to "The Largest CareBear Game" having "PvP for Money" is that WoW PvP happens in "Arenas" and on "Special Servers"...not in the town where new players are made. Your comparison, sadly, is totally Apples(Completely Consensual PvP, based on Arenas and Servers) to Oranges (Completely Non-Consensual PvP that can happen anywhere in Fel, and that isn't a shard selection...it is a facet selection,....BIG difference. It would be very difficult for any player to "Accidentally" create a new character on a PvP server in WoW and accidentally just go to the wrong place and get whacked by a far more experienced player(s) than themselves. Likely, that would never happen. And for very, very good reason.

WoW PvP does NOT doesn't happen on servers where PvM is the basis for game play. They have "Special" PvP Servers that a person can join to PvP, if they want to...key word being "If They Want To".

PvPers should not be punished...I agree...PKs, though, should. Plenty of "Blue" PvPers that should probably be Red, but that is a different discussion.

If there was a toggle, like Chaos/Order...then all would be great. If I want to travel, as a Red, to any land, I can. If I have my Order/Chaos selection made, then I can attack any other Chaos/Order character, and they can attack me...anywhere. Any Orange (besides your own side of course...) is fair game, as am I.

If I am Red and have not selected my Chaos/Order, then I would be able to travel to any facet, but would not be able to freely attack any player anywhere, and they could not attack me either.

If I am Blue and have selected Order/Chaos, then the same rules apply...I am freely attack-able by the other side anytime, anywhere. If I am Blue and choose not to join Order/Chaos, then the same rules apply to me...I cannot be attacked anywhere I go, unless I flip the switch.

That is as fair as I can see it being done. In fact, if something like this was instituted, then and only then, could Reds and Blues as a designation of "Virtuous" and Non-Virtuous" game play become completely immaterial. Only Chaos/Order would matter, and UO would finally have a PvP switch.

Again, your comparison to WoW as a huge PvP draw and to show that PKs in UO should not be punished because WoW has lots of players that PvP on very special servers is hardly valid when compared to what the WoW differences are...and they are many.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

If I am Blue and have selected Order/Chaos, then the same rules apply...I am freely attack-able by the other side anytime, anywhere. If I am Blue and choose not to join Order/Chaos, then the same rules apply to me... I can be attacked anywhere I go in fel if it is out of guard zone, but I still all of Fel guard zones, Tram, Ilsh, Ter Mur, and all the other new content the devs come out with, but limit it to the tram play style.

There we go. I fixed it for you.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

The problem with your comparison to "The Largest CareBear Game" having "PvP for Money" is that WoW PvP happens in "Arenas" and on "Special Servers"...not in the town where new players are made. Your comparison, sadly, is totally Apples(Completely Consensual PvP, based on Arenas and Servers) to Oranges (Completely Non-Consensual PvP that can happen anywhere in Fel, and that isn't a shard selection...it is a facet selection.

Anytime you go to Fel you consent to PvP. There is NO REASON TO GO TO FEL IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT. Much of the tram ruleset pvm is more profitable than champ spawns.

 

[Surgeries]

Anytime you go to Fel you consent to PvP. There is NO REASON TO GO TO FEL IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT. Much of the tram ruleset pvm is more profitable than champ spawns.

AND ANYTIME YOU ATTACK AND KILL ANOTHER PLAYER THAT IS BLUE(whether YOU think they deserve it or not) IN FEL YOU CONSENT TO ANOTHER MURDER COUNT. Murder Counts will increase the time a Red needs to spend in Fel, by the rules...that's how these rules work...and they must work both ways to be fair.

You are obviously familiar enough with the rules to SHOUT THEM OUT so there you go...it has to go Both Ways. No Reds in Tram if no PvP Switch in Fel, IMO.

Is that clear enough for you? It is a cell of your own design...but you want the guards to let you out, after you did the crime, and knowing full well what that punishment would be?

Naw...that's all good. That would be like me coming to a Champ Spawn currently and getting raided and not liking it. Wouldn't make sense under the current rule set. It's how things are. You would LIKE having your scrolled and highly equipped Red be able to come to a facet that, for the most part, by your own words, you can be very profitable...MORE profitable...than Fel, except Champ Spawns. But you DON'T want to allow Blues the same abilities in return; being able to go unmolested to a Champ Spawn in Fel if they want it. And it is because we "Consent" to your attack on us at a Champ Spawn by using a moon gate...but you do NOT consent to having to take a murder count (the guy had it coming@!!111!) and suffer the consequences that can bring...because you have "Good Reasons" for going Red. Yep...that is about as skewed and unfair a comparison and expectation on your part I can possibly imagine. Ever.

And, thanks for cementing the final point: If you have ONLY Reds in Fel, and want to go capitalize on Tram, then add a character slot or account...the Tram Facets ARE, after all, by your own words, more profitable than Champ Spawns, so to do otherwise would be ignoring profits.

That way no rule changes need be made (Reds stay in Fel attacking any Blues they would like) and Blues get a choice of where to go, taking the risks depending on the facet they choose.

If you have a Blue character then you don't need the rules change...if you don't have any Blue Characters to use in the Tram Facets, you can open another account and leave the rules be.

Solved.

 

[Surgeries]

There we go. I fixed it for you.

No need to pervert my posts...what I said stands.

If your scrolled Red gets to come to Tram, then they cannot be attacked there, and they can profit highly with their templates, then I deserve the same in return when I go to Fel...without attack unless I choose it.

Otherwise just stop yer bitchin' and moaning and either add a character slot for a Blue, or add an account that you can create Blue characters on.

And I will continue to profit from my play style without having to put up with non-con PvP at all. It's simple, really.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

No need to pervert my posts...what I said stands.

If your scrolled Red gets to come to Tram, then they cannot be attacked there, and they can profit highly with their templates, then I deserve the same in return when I go to Fel...without attack unless I choose it.

Otherwise just stop yer bitchin' and moaning and either add a character slot for a Blue, or add an account that you can create Blue characters on.

And I will continue to profit from my play style without having to put up with non-con PvP at all. It's simple, really.

Fine let any blue in Tram be able to attack a red in Tram at any time, but the red cannot attack unless attacked first. That way reds can be attacked at any time, but blues can make the choice to PvP or not PvP in tram.

I still don't think you understand the main reason I want this. It isn't so I can go farm the big renouned dragon type thing, so I am going to copy and paste what I typed in another thread.

I could care less if reds can go into Tram to PvM. Most people who have multiple reds don't even like PvM. But I don't think the Tram players understand how long 4 mins can be in PvP.

If a blue member of an O/C guild is being attacked in Luna, while I am on my red scouting spawns looking for a fight, by the time I run out of T2A or a dungeon, recall to my house, wait 2 mins to time out because I hit a mongbat as I am running into my house, login my blue PvP char (if I am lucky enough to have one), add the pieces to the suit I took off of my other character, soul stone on and off skills, and recall to luna the fight could be LONG over and the 3 people that attacked my one guild mate have long ran off and went back to hiding until they find another guild member all alone.

Wash, rinse, repeat. It will get old in less than 1 week and then O/C will be as broken, if not worse, than factions.


And finally feel free to profit from your normal play style and your non-con PvP. I am not here to judge, nor tell you how to play UO since I don't pay for your account, but it sounds like you are still mad about some guild raiding your sampire 2 years ago while you were doing a spawn in Fel. Get over it and realize most reds don't want in Tram to be able to PvM and cut into you "profit" from your doom, peerless things and what not. We want access so factions, or O/C if they bring it back, can have fighting across EVERY facit.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

Surgeries you seem to lack critical thinking skills. Just because the rules are a certain way does not mean that is the best way. There was a time when the rule was if you had RPD on your suit you were the flagger regardles. This wasnt right and allowed blues to get griefed in GZ. When Fel was released the murder system should have been done away with. You consent to pvp when you enter fel end of story.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

No need to pervert my posts...what I said stands.

If your scrolled Red gets to come to Tram, then they cannot be attacked there, and they can profit highly with their templates, then I deserve the same in return when I go to Fel...without attack unless I choose it.

Otherwise just stop yer bitchin' and moaning and either add a character slot for a Blue, or add an account that you can create Blue characters on.

And I will continue to profit from my play style without having to put up with non-con PvP at all. It's simple, really.

First off, reds are not built to profit from PvM with their templates. You choose to be open to attack when you go to Fel so you have no point there.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

Fine let any blue in Tram be able to attack a red in Tram at any time, but the red cannot attack unless attacked first. That way reds can be attacked at any time, but blues can make the choice to PvP or not PvP in tram.

I still don't think you understand the main reason I want this. It isn't so I can go farm the big renouned dragon type thing, so I am going to copy and paste what I typed in another thread.

I could care less if reds can go into Tram to PvM. Most people who have multiple reds don't even like PvM. But I don't think the Tram players understand how long 4 mins can be in PvP.

If a blue member of an O/C guild is being attacked in Luna, while I am on my red scouting spawns looking for a fight, by the time I run out of T2A or a dungeon, recall to my house, wait 2 mins to time out because I hit a mongbat as I am running into my house, login my blue PvP char (if I am lucky enough to have one), add the pieces to the suit I took off of my other character, soul stone on and off skills, and recall to luna the fight could be LONG over and the 3 people that attacked my one guild mate have long ran off and went back to hiding until they find another guild member all alone.

Wash, rinse, repeat. It will get old in less than 1 week and then O/C will be as broken, if not worse, than factions.


And finally feel free to profit from your normal play style and your non-con PvP. I am not here to judge, nor tell you how to play UO since I don't pay for your account, but it sounds like you are still mad about some guild raiding your sampire 2 years ago while you were doing a spawn in Fel. Get over it and realize most reds don't want in Tram to be able to PvM and cut into you "profit" from your doom, peerless things and what not. We want access so factions, or O/C if they bring it back, can have fighting across EVERY facit.

IMO when your a pvper and you join O/C or factions or whatnot your saying "I am a hardcore pvper" yous hould be open to attack anywhere in the game no exceptions. You should not get to run out of the luna gate to 5v1 gank someone at yew gate then run right back to luna, and thats what it is...

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

AND ANYTIME YOU ATTACK AND KILL ANOTHER PLAYER THAT IS BLUE(whether YOU think they deserve it or not) IN FEL YOU CONSENT TO ANOTHER MURDER COUNT. Murder Counts will increase the time a Red needs to spend in Fel, by the rules...that's how these rules work...and they must work both ways to be fair.

You are obviously familiar enough with the rules to SHOUT THEM OUT so there you go...it has to go Both Ways. No Reds in Tram if no PvP Switch in Fel, IMO.

Is that clear enough for you? It is a cell of your own design...but you want the guards to let you out, after you did the crime, and knowing full well what that punishment would be?

Naw...that's all good. That would be like me coming to a Champ Spawn currently and getting raided and not liking it. Wouldn't make sense under the current rule set. It's how things are. You would LIKE having your scrolled and highly equipped Red be able to come to a facet that, for the most part, by your own words, you can be very profitable...MORE profitable...than Fel, except Champ Spawns. But you DON'T want to allow Blues the same abilities in return; being able to go unmolested to a Champ Spawn in Fel if they want it. And it is because we "Consent" to your attack on us at a Champ Spawn by using a moon gate...but you do NOT consent to having to take a murder count (the guy had it coming@!!111!) and suffer the consequences that can bring...because you have "Good Reasons" for going Red. Yep...that is about as skewed and unfair a comparison and expectation on your part I can possibly imagine. Ever.

And, thanks for cementing the final point: If you have ONLY Reds in Fel, and want to go capitalize on Tram, then add a character slot or account...the Tram Facets ARE, after all, by your own words, more profitable than Champ Spawns, so to do otherwise would be ignoring profits.

That way no rule changes need be made (Reds stay in Fel attacking any Blues they would like) and Blues get a choice of where to go, taking the risks depending on the facet they choose.

If you have a Blue character then you don't need the rules change...if you don't have any Blue Characters to use in the Tram Facets, you can open another account and leave the rules be.

Solved.

For the record all my chars are fully suited and scrolled, not just reds.
90% of reds in Fel are red from protecting guild champ spawns.
We do not want reds to come to tram rulesets to pvm, we do not care if we cannot even flag an NPC, we want to go there to engage in the pvp if O/C/Factions are altered to fight in tram.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

IMO when your a pvper and you join O/C or factions or whatnot your saying "I am a hardcore pvper" yous hould be open to attack anywhere in the game no exceptions. You should not get to run out of the luna gate to 5v1 gank someone at yew gate then run right back to luna, and thats what it is...

Yup I agree %10000

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

But IMO the people like surgeries are the ones with semi decent sampire that are upset that they cant farm baracoons all day with an afk protector.

 

[Surgeries]

Surgeries you seem to lack critical thinking skills.

That sure sounds like you are criticizing me, personally, there Phangs. That sure sounds like a personal attack if I ever heard one.

My thinking skills are fine. My IQ is high enough, and my problem solving and procedural skills are good enough to hold high level (Director Level) positions at my company. So, unless you have some reason to personally attack me, other than that we do not agree, please do yourself a favor and keep your insults and personal attacks to yourself. Your posts display a lot of defensiveness and vileness when you call me names or attack my character. You know nothing of my thinking skills other than this forum. And this forum states clearly in it's ROC that personal attacks are not allowed. [/quote]

Just because the rules are a certain way does not mean that is the best way.
There was a time when the rule was if you had RPD on your suit you were the flagger regardles. This wasnt right and allowed blues to get griefed in GZ. When Fel was released the murder system should have been done away with. You consent to pvp when you enter fel end of story.

And you consent to the Rules that restrict your travels to Fel facets when you go Red. Leave your Red in Fel and make a Blue character to come to Tram then. Or, conversely, make concessions to allow Reds to come to Trammel and fight O/C, while Blues who are not O/C get to go to Fel and do Champ Spawns unmolested.

Or...just leave all of it as it is, and you make a new char or account to fight O/C on a Blue in Tram. Nothing too hard about the thinking skills required to come up with that solution, eh Phangs?

But again...your trash talking posts are very telling...no need to insult me, Phangs...no need at all.

 

[Surgeries]

But IMO the people like surgeries are the ones with semi decent sampire that are upset that they cant farm baracoons all day with an afk protector.

You have no idea how or what I play in game...please don't profess to have that knowledge. It doesn't support your case...in fact...it weakens it mightily, as you are using "Trash Talking" posts to attempt to troll and insult.

I sell the items I get from playing on Tram facets to buy my scrolls, and have since the game started. I have always been a big believer in leaving scrolls in Fel, as long as the current rule set stands. Your insults ind insinuations are baseless and pointless.

We are discussing letting Reds come and get their jollies using their scrolled out Reds to find fights in Tram. In return for this proposition, there must be a concession from the other side to allow the rules to be changed. If your hold on the scrolls is SO tight that you folks can only see Reds coming to Tram with no reciprocal giving, then I would definitely vote No to that rule change, and you can make a Blue or another account if you have no slots left.

However, your assumptions about my play style are incorrect at all levels for me, so you might want to table that point, as it could not be farther from the truth.

 

[Surgeries]

First off, reds are not built to profit from PvM with their templates. You choose to be open to attack when you go to Fel so you have no point there.

But they COULD profit from several thousand gold per kill for insurance and possible loot from killing O/C folks in Tram with their super-specialized PvP Template and scrolled out characters, though...right? The ones that are having a really hard time finding a fight in Fel where that character is stuck because it's Red?

Right.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

But they COULD profit from several thousand gold per kill for insurance and possible loot from killing O/C folks in Tram with their super-specialized PvP Template and scrolled out characters, though...right? The ones that are having a really hard time finding a fight in Fel where that character is stuck because it's Red?

Right.

WRONG again.

The whole poing of O/C is PvP, so if a Red with a "super-specialized" PvP template is in tram and attacks an orange in tram that character should be a "super-specialized" PvP template. So it would be equal.

 

[Surgeries]

WRONG again.

The whole poing of O/C is PvP, so if a Red with a "super-specialized" PvP template is in tram and attacks an orange in tram that character should be a "super-specialized" PvP template. So it would be equal.

Key words: "Should Be". The situation can ONLY actually be "Equal" when that condition (other template being attacked by a Red in Tram that is O/C is a "Super-specialized PvP Template) is actually met. It didn't really work this way much in Fel, when a Red would attack a Miner, for example. Most miners were defenseless, and the Reds still killed them. Some actually went Red that way, I am betting. But I digress.

But...in Tram...a person could get someone who is NOT a super specialized PvP template to engage in O/C, right? There are no requirements that the other char being attacked by a Red that was able to come to Tram from Fel would HAVE to be any kind of a PvP template, right? I mean...literally...a crafter could join O/C, and be a target, right? Like...a miner maybe? Maybe people could be enticed somehow to join O/C and then they could be targeted like Guildies were for a long time, in Tram? I mean if RPD was used extensively to flag, I am fairly certain there would be a group of players getting newer players to join O/C just so they could be targeted by the opposing forces...I mean...hypothetically, that COULD happen, right?

Which brings us back to the point...the Reds coming from Fel with fresh new targets to attack, and literally all over the place...give up nothing in return for their new found abilities to find targets. Not the way I would do it.

A fair exchange would involve the Reds from Fel giving up something, as well. They are gaining quite a lot should a rule change like this go in, period. And, based on the options being offered up by you and Phangs, we are all to just be glad that you get to come to Tram, but all of Fel must stay just the way it is now. That is a biased and unfair proposition in my opinion.

And, since this will likely just keep flopping back and forth, I politely will stop posting with you on this subject now. I have said my piece and my views are well known.

 

[blinkdog]

So if reds get to come to Trammel, a change that would have zero effect upon you, you then deserve to farm scrolls in total safety because of a bunch of nonsense about miners joining order/chaos and MOMMY HE GOT SOMETHING I WANT SOMETHING TOO WAAAH.

You sound ridiculous and I am a lifelong Trammie.

 

[Phangs_of_Phage]

Pvpers in this thread just give up. The guys you are arguing against dont think with logic. They dont understand that most people went red to protect guild champ spawns, they dont understand the fact that 99% of the blues our reds killed "consented" to pvp (in most cases 100% by coming to fel). They dont understand that we NEED to be red to field for our guild. They do not understand the system, you cannot argue with ignorance.

 

[swroberts]

My favorite post on this thread so far..."I keep repeating the same arguments over and over and I can't get them to agree with me, so I am taking my ball and going home."

So all you Red non-PK’ing....just protecting your guild mates....we don't really want to be red....dudes gather round..

YOU.....YES YOU....CREATED THE FELLUCA WASTELAND AS IT IS TODAY.....

Non-consensual PVP was so popular that when the opportunity became available to play in a land without PVP, everyone who was blue left....not 50%...not 99%....but 100%. Granted there were still houses, but no one blue played there.

The developers, (this is a little guesswork), were surprised by the mass exodus, and have put some band-aids in place (double hides, power scrolls, etc) in an attempt to stimulate the PVP landscape.

The developers, creating new content, took a look at Felucca, realized it is a complete waste of resources to make dual content (because no one plays blue under the Felucca rule set unless they have to), so all new content falls under the Trammel style rule set.

The reason behind all these changes were the ....Red non-PK’ing....just protecting your guild mates....we don't really want to be red....dudes, who killed every single blue who crossed their path, whether they were mining, gathering leather, or doing dungeon crawls.

I think it is obvious that non-consensual PVP is not even close to being popular, more of a nuisance to the majority of UO players, and it is not historically important to the legacy of UO....and if you don't believe me, head on over to Felucca and stay there until you see another soul pass by.

So based on what we see in Felucca...PVP has no place in any of the new lands. PVP destroyed Felucca, it is your **** sand which, enjoy the taste, and stop whining about what you have driven off.

If you want....we PVP and non-PVP subscribers can team up and create a consensual PVP petition and deliver it to UO, demanding a change. Allowing everyone to play the game they want to play, wherever they want to play it. But alas, you don't want consensual PVP, you want to PK people who would rather have nothing to do with you, and since no one plays Felucca, you want in to the newer lands to drive the game back to the late 90's. I don't think so.

Remember, Felucca's population was shaped by the PVP/PK's, so stay there and enjoy the taste of that sandwhich.

You may now return to the "I understand the rules, but it's not fair that my Murderer cannot go to the new lands" channel.

 

[Felonious Monk]

If it wasn't for power scrolls and double resources would any blue chrs go to fel at all?
If the fel rule set needs to bait people to go there, it's a very strong message that suggests that play style (at least in this game) has waned in popularity. I also consider it to reflect the anti-virtue of vanity to suggest a rule change for reds to be tram.
Go to the shrine of humility and chant the mantra "lum".
Make a blue chr or play a game with more content and more of population of pvp'rs

 

[SlobberKnocker]

i wasnt around during the fel only days but it seems some have quite a deep rooted animosity for what went
on ''back in the day''.

regarding the original post i would suggest petitioning the uo staff to see at some point (xmas gift) a one time reprieve be granted to a red.

 

[Merus]

After reading much of this thread I have to agree with the OP. Surg makes some valid point, but IMO they are outdated. I see very little impact to the average trammie if reds were allowed to enter the tram facets and receive a blue hue while there. Please explain how this would impact your game play if you do not have a red. If you do not go to fel because you are afraid of being attacked this change would not affect you. If you go to fel regardless this change would not affect you. I believe the sentiment that reds should be punished is long outdated... Murder counts are fine... Making the freely attackable where pvp is allowed is sufficient status for excessive murder counts. For the most part, without the ability to pvp in a tram facet those reds really have no real reason to come tram side as they are not built for PvM. But if O/C is expanded to include tram facets, reds should be able to participate with a blue/orange hue while in the tram facet. The ONLY way this change would impact you is if you join O/C.

To argue, as Surg does, that trammies should receive some consideration for allowing reds to pvp in tram against people who have already elected to pvp in tram falls short. The OP is not asking for you to change your game play so why would there be a need to offer consideration?

 

[Merus]

i wasnt around during the fel only days but it seems some have quite a deep rooted animosity for what went
on ''back in the day''.

regarding the original post i would suggest petitioning the uo staff to see at some point (xmas gift) a one time reprieve be granted to a red.

While I agree this would help a great many people who went red a decade ago, it does not address the primary reason that murder counts are acquired, which IMO results from killing blues who are at a champ spawn with other faction/red characters during a raid. If they offered the reprieve and disabled the option to report a murder count from damage taken inside a champ spawn zone I would support that as a solution.