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Resources - is 2 clients truly worth it?

What would you axe if it made the game better?

  • Enhanced Client

    Votes: 49 55.7%
  • 2D Client

    Votes: 39 44.3%

  • Total voters
    88
Z

Zyon Rockler

Guest
That is so true and if you think about it, that is what uo is. It has all the games you can put on face book in one place. If they had seen that before face book they could of made alot of games and put them into uo. Like farming, cooking, fishing, the sims house building.

Think about all the people who play Farmville. It's a very basic thing, you grow something, when it's done growing, you harvest it. Now, look how many people do that. So, if you break down UO into mini games, you already know the people that are doing that now on Face Book would also enjoy doing that in UO. Look at UO's fishing boats, now we put cannons on them. What is the most popular ship fighting game for UO's era? So easy to incorporate and the research is already done. Do people like it? How many people like it?

So, now it's just the matter of the world that it's in and then look at UO with its' Virtue System. Epic Good vs. Evil and Role playing, PvP, Monster Spawn, tie that in with a living world and it becomes a game eating industry, a monopoly.

That's why the 2 clients are so important now. You have 2 different ideas of what the game should look like. The funny thing is, is that I don't really see anyone arguing that looks are more important but they are important. Any future design depends on the looks or the art because if it has the same look as other games, then why play this game? If the environment feels the same where it's just some dumb point and click or they're always throwing some ridiculous add asking for more money every 3 minutes.

So, you think about the idea that UO has to offer. When you go to farm in UO, you don't get a pop up that says, Buy UO Gold. When you go to customize your house, you don't get a pop up that says, Buy the new dungeon look and torture room for only $9.99. I'm not saying that some of this would not be acceptable but if the 2 games were exactly the same there would be no draw for customers. So, the UI and the world setting automatically change all of that. The fact that you're able to own a house and communicate with other people, is no different than Yo Ville but you can not compare UO to Yo Ville because of the UI, because of the Client, because of the way the graphics look, the sound and of course the simple fact that you're not playing Yo Ville, you are in a world.

So, anything that you can do in the world, you can do in UO, even out of world experiences.

I don't agree that 2d is faster than the enhanced. I would like to see proof on that. Alot of the macros that I use begin with the basic spell group. For example: If I push F1 for a heal, that's only the first thing that it's going to do, it will continue doing many things at a perfect timed rate that no human could match well at least most humans and then if I change my key to F2 right after the heal it performs its' face value and then again that one continues unless the next key is pushed. So, you can allow each key to do maybe 2 or 3 moves or you could just let them run out completely.

The reason I say this is because one of the timings with the mage, even Pre-AoS would be explode and flame strike. To time them perfectly is more important than to cast them quickly. So, I would really like to see the comparisons. I really wish we could make movies and show each other our points. As far as PvP I would like to see this put into the arena. The Enhanced Client vs. 2d. Of course the UI's would have to be ok'd to be of qualifiying standard and there would be a debate of course, whether to allow UO Assist.
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
There is a simple solution to this argument...make something only attainable in the EC like a dungeon or special mods..something ...
Why would EA put the money into a product only 46.5% (per the poll percentages above) would buy? Anyone else would have to use the EC, a UI they don't like, to access it and likely wouldn't buy it.

Your not going to have much success in forcing players to use the EC. They'll just not use that new part of the game. When they're eventually blocked from to much of the game because there is no way of reaching it other than via a UI they don't like, they will likely start closing accounts. And the bottom line the beancounters see gets smaller. The question would be how long it would take.

I'd be somewhere in the early group I imagine.
 

Penana Car

Journeyman
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As far as PvP I would like to see this put into the arena. The Enhanced Client vs. 2d. Of course the UI's would have to be ok'd to be of qualifiying standard and there would be a debate of course, whether to allow UO Assist.
I don't understand what you're talking about here. Gear and templates have far more sway factor and for the most part a truly talented player is going to destroy a mediocre player 10 times out of 10 regardless of the client they use. UO Assist or the client used has little bearing on that outcome. It is more about being adept at the options that are available to you and capitalizing on the other person's mistakes and ineptness.

My opinion is there should be a compromise and everybody should move forward on one universal client. Whether it is the enhanced client or the 2D client, let's see some progress and let's see people be forced to adapt just as everybody was forced to adapt when UO: Renaissance brought in Trammel.

I don't care if it's the EC client it wouldn't be my deciding factor to play this game. If the enhanced is so far enhanced then they should roll with it and move forward.

I appreciate your deep thought and input. Good post.
 

Luvmylace

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If the answer were viable it would be simply spend the bucks and put the whole game into a new and updated engine like AOC or one of the exquisitely done games .
 
Z

Zyon Rockler

Guest
Remove the factors that make things not the same it would be part of the rules.. Same gear same templets same everything. then you let them fight and record both sides to let everyone see how and why the other is losing. It would help UO as both are what UO is.. So you have a win win for UO. You also have way to learn and make them both better by learning what is needed to balance the two. Also everyone could see for them selves what we are talking about as far as EC vs. 2D. They could even add in some effects and other things to show what each can do not only by winning but also what it is capable of.

I can understand why alot of ppl would be unwilling but if we worked at it before we let one go we my learn something we could not any other way and at that time it will be to late.

You could also show the game play of the EC vs 2D in spawning and Solo play to give ppl new ideals on how to play UO. Also to show what would be lost if one was lost or what would be gained by using ether or. It could push the players to to new limits make each the 2d and ec do things they have never been seen to do. It would BE something that could only help UO.
 

Penana Car

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Remove the factors that make things not the same it would be part of the rules.. Same gear same templets same everything. then you let them fight and record both sides to let everyone see how and why the other is losing. It would help UO as both are what UO is.. So you have a win win for UO.
I love your thinking - you have such creativity!

The problem with that however is that one player is going to be better than the other, plain and simple. It's a great fantasy but put me on the EC client or the 2D client and I'll still come out on top every time. If that's how it's going to be, give me any client you choose, line me up an opponent and I'll outright destroy them. Player skill is another swaying factor. The matter going forward is not an issue of two clients. It is an issue of players quite simply having to adapt to change. I'm one to adapt to change very fast. Others may not adapt as fast but they will adapt if they must, just as we all adapted when UO: Renaissance was introduced.

The reality is there needs to be a compromise, plain and simple. The development team seems to have no ambition to work with the community to find that compromise. The game will continue to wilt if that is how it will stay. However I feel if the vendor works closely with its customers and solicits feedback and finds new innovations and does its homework - great things can happen. UO has all of the tools to innovate much of the existing content. Unfortunately I fear they are taking the wrong course of direction so a lot of good possibilities will never come to fruition, which is a shame because the "longest standing game of 15 great years" has little to show for itself right now.

Only speaking my interpretation of the truth. I know everybody has their own opinions. Mythic has their opinion as well as to what is going to generate good enough results to satisfy their corporate bosses. Yes, they're doing what can be expected of them. However with a slightly different mindset they could exceed industry expectations. And I know if it were my boss, that is what he would expect from me. Maximizing performance. Driving to be the best in the industry.

Too many people it seems are satisfied with just OK. Not this person. I expect the drive to be the very best.
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I know we can't do movies but I have both clients installed CC and EC w/pinchos..I will gladly fight whoever on CC and then the EC and show you the difference..as for the explode flame strike pre 16...WHAT? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wait is he talking dismount "all kill" or a template that involves actual macros?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ender

Crazed Zealot
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UNLEASHED
You EC folks seem to be incapable of realizing that the EC's basic problem is it's not a good UI! Does the bad graphic display of the EC do something to your minds like some displays are reported to cause epileptic seizures and behavior problems in people who view them? Your minds seem only able to think 'graphics... graphics... graphics... yes... yes... graphics....' filtering out everything else that is said concerning why many stay with the CC instead of changing to the EC. Gods, you people have gotten really spooky.
You EC folks seem to be incapable of realizing that the EC's basic problem is it's not a good UI! Does the bad graphic display of the EC do something to your minds like some displays are reported to cause epileptic seizures and behavior problems in people who view them? Your minds seem only able to think 'graphics... graphics... graphics... yes... yes... graphics....' filtering out everything else that is said concerning why many stay with the CC instead of changing to the EC. Gods, you people have gotten really spooky.
EC not a good UI? You're off your ****ing rocker.
 

Tanivar

Crazed Zealot
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Stratics Legend
EC not a good UI? You're off your ****ing rocker.
Sitting comfortably in it right now actually. :)

Look at the poll percentages. That's not all over the EC shakey graphics I imagine. :)
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

I'll simply give two words that show the improvement of the base EC UI over the base CC UI. Ready for it? It's two words that make the EC UI powerful in a way the CC UI cannot do:

Target Stored.

This is base UI vs base UI, no mods or external programs. This is also just one of MANY features in the EC UI not found in the CC UI.
 

Storm

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Well as you all know I am a EC fan. I love the nostalgia of the CC, I like the old graphics from a nostalgic point of view, But as Dermott said The EC UI Cant be beat comparing the two even with UOASSIST and what we need is a marriage of the two with scaled graphics!
I think if UO is going to continue on it needs bug fixes (that are coming after the first of the year) and combine the clients in a way that we all can choose what we want from the two!
this will drive cost down and make the game stable and be able to coast into history with grace!
 

Madrid

Slightly Crazed
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Screw the bug fixes. What the games needs is some high resolution graphics. Get the goddamn graphics in the game then worry about bug fixes.
 

Storm

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Is this our vision and hope for UO now?
please dot get me wrong, I want UO to thrive and grow again, But I would like to see it stabilized with one UI have bugs fixed and do this in a way that makes as many people as possible happy and give UO a stable platform that can be built on in the most economic way possible!
 

Madrid

Slightly Crazed
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I am just wondering how graphics are going to help this game in its present state?
The graphics IS what's wrong with the game or lack of. I mean this game UO...is UGLY! They went from High Resolution(Kingdom Reborn) to low resolution (Enhanced Client).

There's nothing terribly wrong with the state of the game with the exception of the dwindling playerbase. What's wrong with the game is it looks virtually identical to Ultima VII Black Gate graphics from 1992.

Enough about the friggin' EC vs. CC. The bleepin' EC client is the CC all over again with a different UI. Yes a better UO...a WAY better UI...there's no comparison or debating it.

No one could handle KR because no one was willing to change. Game was filled with Jurrasics like Taniver unwilling to change. I get it...people are opposed to change. It was too much too soon. Now a few years later we have people who tried the EC and won't go back to the CC. Tada! Hello! Yet were still stuck with the ****ty CC graphics!

The EC has potentiel as it is a powerful client but their using those goddamn ugly CC legacy graphics circa 1992.

CC is horrble looking and not going to attract new players. EC looks almost identical to the CC in terms of graphics and isn't going to draw in any new players.

I'll be breaking out champagne if they ever trash the CC because that's the reason they pulled the plug on KR. Maybe KR wasn't the be all end all but it was a step in the right direction instead of 3 steps backwards which is what the EC is.
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
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Stratics Legend
Phew!

"coast into history with grace" can be taken to mean similar things to "die with dignity." Coasting is UO what has been doing since SA or High Seas. Coasting is bad.

Time for the Devs to stop being complacent, coding silly things like pet arenas which only a handful will use, and start addressing the problems in the game head on. This also means they need to open the lines of communication and stop hiding within Mesanna's cone of silence.
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
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...

The graphics IS what's wrong with the game or lack of. I mean this game UO...is UGLY! They went from High Resolution(Kingdom Reborn) to low resolution (Enhanced Client).

There's nothing terribly wrong with the state of the game with the exception of the dwindling playerbase. What's wrong with the game is it looks virtually identical to Ultima VII Black Gate graphics from 1992.
Let's be fair, UO's 2d graphics are more in line with and in some cases are pulled from Ultima 8, not Ultima 7.
 

Madrid

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...
Let's be fair, UO's 2d graphics are more in line with and in some cases are pulled from Ultima 8, not Ultima 7.
Okay Dermott of LS I'll concede..you got me on that one. I stand corrected...

Ultima Online graphics are closer to Ultima VIII: Pagan (1994) than Ultima VII Serpent Isle/Black Gate (1992).:D
 

Storm

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You know what the problem is! its uncharted territory no game has ever had this projected life span ..think about it! and not even counting its longevity look at the play style and content we have compared to other games ...any other game for that matter!
we lack in graphics because like it or not anyone buying a new game (almost) looks at the picture/graphics first

This is my opinion: They take UO spend $ on it and take the exact system we have now and convert to a virtual 3D type environment like wow or rift re-market the game giving all players with accounts over x age a cheap or discounted sub/box set (to help hold player base) and re market it!

I have never met anyone who does not like the content of UO its ALWAYS it looks bad!

Anyway thats my take on it
 

Madrid

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You know what the problem is! its uncharted territory no game has ever had this projected life span ..think about it! and not even counting its longevity look at the play style and content we have compared to other games ...any other game for that matter!
we lack in graphics because like it or not anyone buying a new game (almost) looks at the picture/graphics first

This is my opinion: They take UO spend $ on it and take the exact system we have now and convert to a virtual 3D type environment like wow or rift re-market the game giving all players with accounts over x age a cheap or discounted sub/box set (to help hold player base) and re market it!

I have never met anyone who does not like the content of UO its ALWAYS it looks bad!

Anyway thats my take on it
I agree with you and that's my take as well.

The content is there and it's what has carried UO this far.

What is needed is a graphic client style that can meet the demands of those people who prefer the Isometric view (most current UO users) as well as attract new players who may favor the 3D type environment.

This could appease the current playerbase as well as draw in new players who may not otherwise look twice at UO.
 
S

Sevin0oo0

Guest
No one could handle KR because no one was willing to change. .
wasn't that the one that was micro-processor dependent? amd vs xx? I remember it wouldn't run on mine.
I ran both 2d and 3d and was quite excited to try KR, just let down because i didn't have the specific "name brand" and it wouldn't work.
EC has specific hardware issues as well - just not quite as dysfunctional.
 

Dermott of LS

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
...

You know what the problem is! its uncharted territory no game has ever had this projected life span ..think about it! and not even counting its longevity look at the play style and content we have compared to other games ...any other game for that matter!
we lack in graphics because like it or not anyone buying a new game (almost) looks at the picture/graphics first

This is my opinion: They take UO spend $ on it and take the exact system we have now and convert to a virtual 3D type environment like wow or rift re-market the game giving all players with accounts over x age a cheap or discounted sub/box set (to help hold player base) and re market it!

I have never met anyone who does not like the content of UO its ALWAYS it looks bad!

Anyway thats my take on it
I think the technology used should be 3d instead of sprite/stop motion, however the isometric viewpoint should be retained. It is very possible to do this and make it work AND be a best seller. Civs 4 and 5 did this as well as Diablo 3. We know the EC uses the same engine that Civ 4 does, so it's not like its impossible.

Also, in disagreement with earlier posts I would NOT want a graphics overhaul to pre-empt or stop any type of bug fixing. To me the low res graphics in the EC ARE a bug in themselves and simply should be on that 1100+ item bugfix list.
 

Penana Car

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You know what the problem is! its uncharted territory no game has ever had this projected life span ..think about it! and not even counting its longevity look at the play style and content we have compared to other games ...any other game for that matter!
we lack in graphics because like it or not anyone buying a new game (almost) looks at the picture/graphics first

This is my opinion: They take UO spend $ on it and take the exact system we have now and convert to a virtual 3D type environment like wow or rift re-market the game giving all players with accounts over x age a cheap or discounted sub/box set (to help hold player base) and re market it!

I have never met anyone who does not like the content of UO its ALWAYS it looks bad!

Anyway thats my take on it
No offense, not trying to beat the drum here, but WoW kills this game in content. It has over 10 million subscribers so I am kind of certain it takes precedent in the industry over UO. The coming Mists of Pandaria expansion is going to change the game entirely and revolutionize it once again, leaving UO even further in the dust. Then you take the other alternative options for MMO gaming including the free to play models that are available *which are already 3D and UO looks less and less attractive.

The existing version of UO would flop in any perspective for the same reason it has already hit rock bottom.

For a casual inexperienced gamer UO is the perfect environment to start out in to learn a few of the interactive aspects of online gaming. It is a suitable stepping stone to better things. But I don't think this version of UO is acceptable enough to stand for its name that is but one of many in the multiverse, that is Ultima Online. This version of UO is a great game for a nanny to play when Pogo.com becomes repulsive.

Thank you for sharing your ideas and opinions with us all too, I encourage you to share more. That is what this thread is for.
 

Madrid

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wasn't that the one that was micro-processor dependent? amd vs xx? I remember it wouldn't run on mine.
I ran both 2d and 3d and was quite excited to try KR, just let down because i didn't have the specific "name brand" and it wouldn't work.
EC has specific hardware issues as well - just not quite as dysfunctional.
I don't know the exact hardware requirements. Dermott of LS probably would be better qualified to comment on that.

I remember people having issues...

Honestly though KR was not that over the top compared to stuff that's out on the market today or even two years ago.

What..All UO players are running their computers from 1997 or prior still?:p

I understand the monetary issue but even today I could probably spend $300-$500 and have a better PC than the one I have now purchased in 2007.

Obviously there needs to be a balance. Believe me I understand the people have had hard times the last several years due to the greatest economic downturn since the great depression myself being one of them. On the other hand I don't want to see the game held back because players even low end PC's can't run the game.

More than likey increased ram or a decent video card could make the game doable depending on your machine.
 

Storm

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No offense, not trying to beat the drum here, but WoW kills this game in content. It has over 10 million subscribers so I am kind of certain it takes precedent in the industry over UO. The coming Mists of Pandaria expansion is going to change the game entirely and revolutionize it once again, leaving UO even further in the dust. Then you take the other alternative options for MMO gaming including the free to play models that are available *which are already 3D and UO looks less and less attractive.
"but WoW kills this game in content." ? Really I play wow and for content I find wow lacking in that (especially the questing) is all repetitive and lets not even go into housing and things like that!
"It has over 10 million subscribers so I am kind of certain it takes precedent in the industry over UO." The whole point was to get UO back up to those numbers ...and it could ..I bet (and i have no numbers to prove it) If they spent one years WOW budget on UO they could in two years bring UO up to close to half what WOW is and for the investment in that short a time ..to me would be good
 

Flutter

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"but WoW kills this game in content." ? Really I play wow and for content I find wow lacking in that (especially the questing) is all repetitive and lets not even go into housing and things like that!
"It has over 10 million subscribers so I am kind of certain it takes precedent in the industry over UO." The whole point was to get UO back up to those numbers ...and it could ..I bet (and i have no numbers to prove it) If they spent one years WOW budget on UO they could in two years bring UO up to close to half what WOW is and for the investment in that short a time ..to me would be good
But they can't do that if they aren't even willing to spend the money to keep the good talent.
 

Penana Car

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"It has over 10 million subscribers so I am kind of certain it takes precedent in the industry over UO." The whole point was to get UO back up to those numbers ...and it could ..I bet (and i have no numbers to prove it) If they spent one years WOW budget on UO they could in two years bring UO up to close to half what WOW is and for the investment in that short a time ..to me would be good
Good input, thanks.

UO has never had 300,000 subscriptions at one time. So it hasn't peaked at 10% of "those" numbers in its greatest days.

They should be concentrating on ways to salvage the subscribers it has left.
 
S

Sevin0oo0

Guest
More than likey increased ram or a decent video card could make the game doable depending on your machine.
Thanks, already been down the troubleshooting with some most excellent help in the EC forum (in my case it's out dated laptop nvidia/ATI drivers for the on-board video). I have other laptops - moving there
The devs Do run hardware metrics, updating from time to time (fact), so they know the machines they're supporting, and without speculation
 

Madrid

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Good input, thanks.

UO has never had 300,000 subscriptions at one time. So it hasn't peaked at 10% of "those" numbers in its greatest days.

They should be concentrating on ways to salvage the subscribers it has left.
Negative that's what they've been doing and why we are where we are. They tried to appease current players ( CC Jurassics) by making the EC virtually identical to the CC and the CC's still don't like it yet they're the same damn thing.

What they need to do is concentrate on getting new players to try Ultima Online which won't happen without a major facelift in terms of high resolution or even better the combination of a Isometric/3D Client much like Titan Quest and Diablo 3 has going. That's what Ultima Online needs. New Players...sorry but it's long past time worry about keeping the current playerbase.

Ultima Online needs to look to the future. Isometric client to keep the current playerbase and 3D to advertise and appeal to people who haven't given UO a try.
 

Penana Car

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Negative that's what they've been doing and why we are where we are. They tried to appease current players ( CC Jurassics) by making the EC virtually identical to the CC and the CC's still don't like it yet they're the same damn thing.

What they need to do is concentrate on getting new players to try Ultima Online which won't happen without a major facelift in terms of high resolution or even better the combination of a Isometric/3D Client much like Titan Quest and Diablo 3 has going. That's what Ultima Online needs. New Players...sorry but it's long past time worry about keeping the current playerbase.

Ultima Online needs to look to the future. Isometric client to keep the current playerbase and 3D to advertise and appeal to people who haven't given UO a try.
And after that what part of gameplay would attract people to stay? The 2 e-bolt earth elementals or the harrower fight you can finish with 3 people in no time at all?
 

Tanivar

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No one could handle KR because no one was willing to change. Game was filled with Jurrasics like Taniver unwilling to change. I get it...people are opposed to change. It was too much too soon. Now a few years later we have people who tried the EC and won't go back to the CC. Tada! Hello! Yet were still stuck with the ****** CC graphics!
"Jurrasics like Tanivar unwilling to change."? :) Actually change is not a problem. I've seen a lot of it during the process of turning old, gray, and creaky. <chuckle>

All I insist on where change is concerned, is that it is for the better, not the worse. I feel the EC is not as good a UI as the CC. Some folks, a few foul mouthed, feel otherwise.

The Devs offer a new UI that I like better than the CC, I'll switch to it.

Heck, I handled the change from skill-based play to item-based play inflicted by UO:AoS. But making the change from the CC to the EC is asking a bit much. :rolleyes2:
 

Tanivar

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New Players...sorry but it's long past time worry about keeping the current playerbase.
Getting new players requires advertising features of the game. While many are obsessed with graphics making or breaking a game, there are potential players out there who would like the extensive content of the game and not much care about the graphics. Some of you need to accept that concept. Not all game players are obsessed with pixel-crack. There are gamers who are into games that offer something more than monster hacking. Likely an older crowd of people, but they are the ones not wrapped up in games like D3 where all thats offered is state of the art graphics and little else other than monster hacking.

The big group of people into monster hackers like D3, WoW, and other such games would be lost in a complex game like UO. The learning curve would be way to steep for them. They are used to being lead through games, not finding their own way in a sandbox like UO. Consider that as this thread goes on.
 

Flutter

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I am pretty sure it was not about money its more location
As I've said before. Lots of games have artists that work remotely. It is a very VERY common practice. Lots even outsource overseas. The location of your artist in an MMO is largely irrelevant in this day and age.
 

Madrid

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While many are obsessed with graphics making or breaking a game, there are potential players out there who would like the extensive content of the game and not much care about the graphics. Some of you need to accept that concept.
The game already has the friggin content which is why it's lasted this long. Ultima Online has CONTENT! What it DOES NOT have is high resolution graphics to compete with other games on the market! The game has the one and is missing the other. Go read Dermott's Signature a few times and you'll get what some of us are talking about...I hope.


And on a side note: It's one thing to say you prefer the CC UI that's your opinion, your perogative and your absolutely entitled to it. It's another thing to say the CC UI is better than the EC UI. That's enters a grey area where it borders on opinion and fact. It's like saying a 100MB hardrive is better than a 100GB harddrive. Sure you may like your old hard drive and be happier with it but that certainly doesn't change the reality that one is better than the other all things being equal. Same is true of the UO UI's. The CC (1997) is clearly inferior to the EC (2007)and your saying it isn't so.
 

Storm

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As I've said before. Lots of games have artists that work remotely. It is a very VERY common practice. Lots even outsource overseas. The location of your artist in an MMO is largely irrelevant in this day and age.
I disagree..Not saying companies don't do it! but it really is more cost effective to keep the employees in the same building for many reasons. In this case if you think about it Grimm is lucky to have worked remote for as long as he did!
anyway thats about all i am gonna say on this
my bed time soon
.
 

Flutter

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I disagree..Not saying companies don't do it! but it really is more cost effective to keep the employees in the same building for many reasons. In this case if you think about it Grimm is lucky to have worked remote for as long as he did!
anyway thats about all i am gonna say on this
my bed time soon
.
How is it more cost effective?
 

Petra Fyde

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This topic is getting somewhat heated - keep personal attacks out please.
It is also getting derailed, back on topic please?
 
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Woodsman

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I disagree..Not saying companies don't do it! but it really is more cost effective to keep the employees in the same building for many reasons.
Staying on topic, at least some of the artwork (probably most) in the EC graphics upgrade is outsourced, whether it's China or somewhere else, who knows, but look at the Linked In profiles of the Mythic management, and they are all apparently experts at managing outsourced art teams in China. It is, unfortunately, cheaper for them to have their art/graphics teams overseas.

That goes back to the point that I kind of made that they can manage two clients much cheaper these days than they used to.

I think that two clients would have been much more expensive back when they started up the 3D client. Yes, the team was bigger, and there were probably five times as many players, but that was completely different art and a completely different client. With KR it was probably very expensive in some ways, but cheaper in other ways.

The EC is based off of the CC graphics and almost as important, Mythic has four games whose clients are based on the same engine - Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online, Warhammer Wrath of Heroes, and Ultima Online's EC. Whether UO benefits from having a pool of people who work on clients based on the same engine, I don't know. I'd like to think so.
 

Tanivar

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The CC (1997) is clearly inferior to the EC (2007)and your saying it isn't so.
Including the dates proves something? All the dates mean is they are likely written in different programming languages and by different people. The two programming groups who made the two Clients definitely had different opinions on how their product would work, what features it had for the player to use, and how it would look as part of the game display. The group that did the CC produced a UI product that I find much nicer to use, so I'm going to stay with it.

In fifty years after you've had more experience with new & improved versions of things, you may find your opinion on newer things being better than older things changing.
 
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Sevin0oo0

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I believe this line of reasoning falls apart when you consider that Grimm has been working remotely for what, 5+ years?
remotely doesn't necessarily mean from Home - guessing they set him up an area to do do what they want him to do, and now now that time is up, with the office space now to be converted to it's planned purpose. Like Flutter said, it's a very common corporate activity.I also think they've had their fill w/ remote workers, Grimm was just a special case. Many here will remember when they outsourced CS, both in/out of game. Limited hours of availability, Limited availability of English fluent workers. Whoever in their demented thoughts that came up with that was probably canned, and i think he was.
I was also not mentioned if his remote operation was associated with detrimental effects to the UO team -ex. the team could have gotten all new PC's, but he's stuck w/ a sub standard level of support because of location. It has also not been said that as part of his extended tenure, he trains NON-uo artists also, and that has been fulfilled. Many legitimate reasons why it was done as it was.
However the allocation of floor space, hardware, personnel (regardless of area of expertise) is handled, it's all about money - making the most, having it continue to come in as a good investment is top priority for EA, part of this is happy customers and decisions not readily understandable.
the president here in the States makes decisions affecting carbon footprint - some of which may not even be noticeable for 1, 30, 50 years.
As a dev already posted, Corporate rarely interferes with the petty decisions of an individual game, they already pay someone to do that. But they will make decisions that affect their Own turf, and Grimm was on it.
 

Tanivar

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The majority of players presently play the original (2D) client. Whereas the enhanced client is used by some, mostly for casualties such as bank sitting and stocking vendor houses.
Why would it be better for bank sitting?


In my opinion it is simply too ugly to enjoy full time. I was a Third Dawn beta tester (wrote a well published article about it at the time, in fact) and I've had my fair share of experience on the "enhanced client". The graphics in the 2D client are quite simply better, more fluent, and avatars/creatures don't simply look like sliders that run on the spot. In 2D everything from wearables to the trees look like they belong. The EC was just a poor overhaul of what already existed, when they could've enhanced the classic experience.
And it is cluttered, badly cluttered. it's harder to get immersed in the game and particularly RP with all the various things piled on and around the game screen.

What is the benefit of maintaining two clients? If one had to go I'm presuming the classic client would stick around. When EA will not lower the subscription cost, why not axe one client or the other, to put out better quality patches etc. What is the worth without the subscriber base of running two clients? Tell me how this is a smart business decision, to run 2 clients for a game on life support.
It's smart to run two clients because both have a large group of users, around half, that use each of them. A large share of both groups just simply don't like the other client option and wouldn't keep playing the game if forced to use the one they don't like.

The Devs made a mistake by once again introducing a second client. The Devs who were around for the past attempts caught on quickly that it was a bad move (for whatever reasons they saw) and got rid of the newer client. The Devs who produced the EC didn't learn from history.

They should just add the new bells & whistles to the origonal client after converting it to the new preferred programming language and build on that. Make many of the client features switchable so it can be adjusted more to each players liking. That would be the way to go.
 

Tanivar

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I disagree..Not saying companies don't do it! but it really is more cost effective to keep the employees in the same building for many reasons. In this case if you think about it Grimm is lucky to have worked remote for as long as he did!
anyway thats about all i am gonna say on this
my bed time soon
.
Grimm may well fall into that small group of people who are so good at what they do, that employers will make major adjustments in how things are done in order to employ the person they want to work for them. He may not have wanted to move at the time EA hired him so EA set him up a workplace convenient for him instead of insisting he move to near their location.
 

Ender

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Answer me this. How is the dinosaur 2D UI better in any way than the very slightly more modern EC's?
 

Dermott of LS

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...

Answer me this. How is the dinosaur 2D UI better in any way than the very slightly more modern EC's?
Oddly enough the poster claiming the EC UI sucks put up a thread about 5 likes and dislikes of each but never stated their own opinion, nor bothered to comment on the replies made in that thread... for SOME reason.
 
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Woodsman

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Answer me this. How is the dinosaur 2D UI better in any way than the very slightly more modern EC's?
As I said on the previous page, ultimately the problem is really neither client. The CC is not bringing in enough players to keep UO going, and the EC needs high resolution graphics to move it away from the CC's graphics.

The problem is EA. Given how small the UO team is, EA makes more than enough money off of UO that it could afford to hire additional developers to keep both clients going. Unfortunately we would rather be able to blame it on far simpler reasons, and so we blame the individual clients, software, just software, for the state that UO's in, when EA makes more than enough money from UO to do something really special with UO.

It's very telling that EA believes in Ultima enough to spend millions and over two and a half years of development on a new Ultima game that has nothing to do with UO.
 
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