PvP is the Engine of UO's Economy

[Llewen]

I used to believe that pvp'rs in UO were a loud, obnoxious, but fringe element in UO. I figured the vast silent majority was into pvm/pve/rp/banksitting/cybering, etc. Now I have been a seller of pets for a long time, going back at least six years. Some time ago I had a little epiphany and realized I could make the most off my pets by marketing them to pvp'rs.

However, that was at least four years ago, and it has taken me a very long time to connect the dots. I guess I'm just a slow learner. Recently there has been a mass migration to the Atlantic shard, very similar in a way to what has been happening all over the world since the Industrial Revolution, with the human population of our planet moving from the countrysides and farms, to cities.

What has happened is the majority of the pvp'rs, tired of fighting the same few people over and over again, were the first to move, en masse, to the Atlantic, and a few other central shards outside of North America. I had expected this at some point, but what I did not expect was how this would affect the other shards, the "rural" shards if you like. This mass migration has had a devastating effect on every kind of activity on these other shards, including economic activity.

And suddenly this slow old man has connected the dots. It is the pvp'rs who have been driving the economy, and consequently all the activities that support that economy, from resource farming, to champ spawns, peerless, and every activity in between, including crafting and all the efforts of merchants. I'm stunned that I did not see this so clearly before. It is the pvp'rs that buy the high end goods in UO, and who are constantly upgrading and modifying their suits, as well as farming, purchasing and selling even the items that collectors covet, to support their pvp habit.

So what is the message here? Well, the pvp'rs may be the whiniest, most obnoxious, most demanding collection of rejects and miscreants in the game, but as pvp goes in UO, so goes the entire game, and all the efforts that have been made, and continue to be made to keep them happy, are vitally important to the overall health of the game. Not to put to fine a point on it, but when the pvp community speaks in UO, the entire community really does need to sit up and take notice.

It may sound as though I am saying one playstyle is more important than the rest, but that's not really it exactly. What I am saying is that all of these other activities eventually tend to find the very best of their products and resources, either in a pvp'rs suit, or house, or in the suit of the character that some pvp'r is using to make gold or farm resources and items to supply her or his pvp characters.

 

[Picus at the office]

Welcome to today. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue who really drives this game. Anyone who believes that 15 years of the same stuff can really be entertaining has got to be slightly insane. PvP has been the end game, it makes UO the magical place it is. I am only sorry that people never saw this magic back in 98 when it was an amazing thing. The "rush" that one gets today is so bland and mild compared to back then where HUGE fights were every day and anything that happens now simply are a slight compared to the days of yore.

 

[Ruppy2]

And that's why I have quit playing my faction chars....as just stated on another post -

What they are leading up to is that if you want to play a faction character and buy arti-type armor for your char there will soon be an expansion pack that you can buy online at gamecodes to enable such (for like $9.95).

Since they messed with factions (again, and again, and again) I have not been playing my Johara or Daanyick accounts. I may just be shutting those one's down as I have seen minimal faction play on shards that used to be busy/competitive/entertaining.

Always amazes me that computer ppl can't speak promotions/consumer relations and promotions/consumer relations cannot speak 'computer.'

 

[Llewen]

It's funny, I have always tried to avoid the "fotm", and I won't get into whether or not that works for me. The point is this, with pvm/pve, once you have "figured out" a new spawn, boss, puzzle, or location, that's it. You build a character or suit to handle that content, and you don't really need to do anything after that other than go do the same thing over and over again and get whatever it is you are looking for from that location. But pvp is different. Pvp changes every day. Someone comes out with a powerful template, or playstyle, and someone else figures out how to counter that, which forces more changes, actions and reactions. Pvp is constantly evolving, suits and templates are constantly changing, you get tired of one thing, and you can try something new. Every pvp'r is always looking to "up their game" get the edge.

The dark side of that drive is cheating, but the upside is the constant need for resources, and a market for items farmed by pvm/pve. And as new content is added by the developers, the content that is most successful is that which finds a place in the "end game", which is, as Picus has said, and he and I rarely agree, pvp. With pvm/pve you can get by with "good enough", but with pvp, every truly dedicated pvp'r is always looking for that little edge that will push the over the top to success. Pvp is a game of milliseconds and tenths of a percent. And oddly enough, more than almost any other part of the game, it is a venue for imagination and creativity where those that are the most successful aren't necessarily the youngest with the best eyes, and the fastest reflexes, or even those with the best hardware and internet connections. The pvp'rs that are often the most successful are often the ones that are the most creative, and the ones that dare to swim against the tide.

 

[sativa green]

UO's PvP is one of it's most unique and genuinely great features that is offered. PvP is what keeps everything turning and i'm glad some people are starting to realize it. we may be playing a game, but it's competition that drives it.

 

[silent]

So if PVP'rs drive the economy how do they get the gold to drive said economy? Power scrolls aren't exactly in huge demand like they once were. If crafters use their craft to get gold, PVM'rs kill things to get their gold, how do PVP'rs earn gold to make the world go 'round with all of these purchases they are supposedly making? I haven't PVP'd actively since 2000ish and I've spent about a billion gold in the last 6 months, and I'm a small non-pvp fish.

 

[sativa green]

So if PVP'rs drive the economy how do they get the gold to drive said economy? Power scrolls aren't exactly in huge demand like they once were. If crafters use their craft to get gold, PVM'rs kill things to get their gold, how do PVP'rs earn gold to make the world go 'round with all of these purchases they are supposedly making? I haven't PVP'd actively since 2000ish and I've spent about a billion gold in the last 6 months, and I'm a small non-pvp fish.

not every pvper is just a pvper. we also engage in pvm activities like medusa for slithers and slasher for lavalieres. i personally made millions of doing corgul runs which funds my pvping. no pvper is making millions off killing other players, maybe it happens if someone is dumb enough to bring something worth losing, but that's very rare in the era of item insurance.

 

[Picus at the office]

So if PVP'rs drive the economy how do they get the gold to drive said economy? Power scrolls aren't exactly in huge demand like they once were. If crafters use their craft to get gold, PVM'rs kill things to get their gold, how do PVP'rs earn gold to make the world go 'round with all of these purchases they are supposedly making? I haven't PVP'd actively since 2000ish and I've spent about a billion gold in the last 6 months, and I'm a small non-pvp fish.

So did you farm this billion gold by hand? PvP players arn't stupid. We do the EM events, corguls, farm spawns and anything else that eveyone else does but we happen to fight also. We own the expensive houses and do the big trades but the focus is pvp. Join up, you have missed 12 years of the game.

 

[silent]

Some farmed by hand, most just comes to you being in this game so long with rare items, vet rewards, housing, etc. For all the reasons stated above is why I likely wouldn't come back to PVP, it's gotten waaay to complicated and item based.

 

[weins201]

Ok ill say it, PvPer are by far the worst users of programs that are, well, illegal and therefore are also the worst ones when it comes to those famos loopholes that allo for other such nefarious activities, duping, forcing insured items off characters, atc. Therefore they have amassed huge amounts of gold from means that are other than legit. therefore they dont need to farm menial taks to make their riches.

If you are a legitimate PvPer than good for you, dont bother replying i really dont care what any of you think most know I am right and will just whine about it.

PvP is not what drives this game. sorry.

If it was they would actually care the turining faction item rank requirements off and just making them cost silver will just mean that gimp PvMers will now just farm some simple silver to keep using their Faction arties in Tram

 

[NBG]

PvP is important but it is only part of UO. Every player setup their own end game goals and that is why UO is unique because the end game is how you make it. PvM can be just as challenging. There are plenty of time I see good PvPers running around like chicken with their head cut off when fighting high end bosses. and just the same when PvMers doing the same thing when they are forced to PvP.

Its about what each player decided to do with the UO sandbox. All these verbal joust about which aspect is more important is just a result of the lack of separation when Dev's changes are implemented. PvM gets messed up because some balance was put in for PvP and PvP gets screwed up when the reverse happens.

PvP and PvM changes need to have no impacts on one another, whenever one aspect of the game gets changed in order to balance another aspect of the game it creates player conflict of opinion. I refuse to believe that implementing PvP and PvM separation when it comes to Dev changes is out of the question.

I mean capping armor ignore against player is the perfect example. The change only has an impact to PvP and it addresses balance issue with PvP while leaving the damage against monsters alone. Why can't more changes take on the same consideration is beyond me.......

 

[Madrid]

PvP is not what drives this game. sorry.

If it was they would actually care the turining faction item rank requirements off and just making them cost silver will just mean that gimp PvMers will now just farm some simple silver to keep using their Faction arties in Tram

Nailed it. The OP is having delusions of grandeur about the PvP playstyle.

To qoute Woodsman "The people voted with their feet a long time ago".

Every shard I've been on I've seen diminished in player population and it has zero to do with PvP'ers migrating to a particular shard. It's quite simply the attrition of the UO playerbase without adding any new players. It's got nothing to do with either playstyle.

 

[Vlaude]

I used to play with a hardcore PvM guy on Chesapeake who didn't need my help at Champ Spawns or Peerless but would let me tag along and help/share the loot regardless because he also happened to be a really nice guy. Some of his suits that he would put together for his characters were incredibly expensive, easily as much or more than most top end PvP suits. Now, he did PvP as well and was good at it but he was a PvM player at heart and one of the best I've ever known. I say that to point out that he isn't the only one like that, there are others like him I'm sure of it. And anyone who does hardcore solo PvM will tell you it is just as expensive, if not more so, than hardcore PvP. That said, I do believe hardcore PvP'ers outnumber hardcore PvM'ers because your typical trammy casual player (which I am not insulting and actually was one the last time I actively played, though I have always and will always only own houses in Fel) will do PvM or a little PvP as part of a group, which usually means they will put less effort into character development, supplies, etc than the hardcore players. As for roleplayers I cannot accurately comment on them since I have never spent much time as one in UO. However, observation would seem to tell me that hardcore RPers usually have several accounts and houses in order to form towns, cities, etc., and although their day to day expenses may not be as high as hardcore PvP'ers/PvM'ers their overall investment in UO may well be the highest of anyone.

All that is to say, it is the hardcore players who drive the economy no matter their playstyle be it PvP, PvM, RP, and so on as opposed to the casuals who outnumber the hardcore but are still affected by them.

 

[Madrid]

All that is to say, it is the hardcore players who drive the economy no matter their playstyle be it PvP, PvM, RP, and so on as opposed to the casuals who outnumber the hardcore but are still affected by them.

I'll agree with this. 1997-2001 I was a hardcore PvPer...then the powers that be butchered pre-casting tank mages and added dismount/special moves hence now I am a hardcore PvMer (Trammie).

I burned through 6 Forged Metal of Artifacts putting my PvM suit together to get what I wanted. It's no different than an other high end suit that's tailor made for a specific purpose.

 

[NBG]

I am the same way. While I used to PvP and I do enjoy it, I also really enjoy the challenge of soloing high end bosses. Due to real life issues, my body just can not handle the excitement of PvP (Doc thought I was having an heart attack via heart monitor during my PvP sessions while I was staying at the hospital). Needless to say, I am semi discouraged from putting my heart on over drive. PvM was a big part of my UO experience and thank god I can still do that.

PvP and PvM offers different types of enjoyment and I am glad that I can still do so many other things in UO. Anyone can train and suit up for PvP\PvM but at the end of the day its the players. All those items out there are great but it is a small part. Learning how to PvP and PvM while quite different, but they both offers the same thing in the end (just depends on your point of view).

Learning curve can be just as high for either. I mean you can have all the gear in the world and capped out skills but you will eat just as much dirt learning how to play.

Economy wise, I think there are plenty of other sources that are just as vital. I doubt we will have UO to play right now if housing is not an option. Housing customization provides certain group of players to get deco\rares driving the economy as a whole. People that love IDOC redistribute items to other players driving the economy further. Vendors also drives the Economy and there are players that play the merchant exclusively and some are so good at it, they can influence economy in 1 or more shards.

The new arena and void pool could grow into a something nice if tweaked properly. Void pool could be really interesting if it is setup with 2 sides helping the monsters on their side to push to destroy the other side's pool or how about instead of mindless waves of monsters, Tier boss will show up to change the pace up. Arena could also be fun if more options are provided and just like the T map challenge, why not Arena Tournament for PvP and PvM for between shards where the top teams from each shard faces off every so often. There are just so many possibilities.

Another unexplored area is ship battles where same principle can be applied for a sea arena and offer cheap ammunition and supplies from npc that can only be used in the sea arena. PvP on ships with multiple players should be great fun and people can actually afford to practice and not have to worry about thousands of different resource needed just to fight for 5 minutes. Sea arena will be able offer that.

When it all comes down to it, you can't really clap with just one hand and offering players finished and polished feature to create player interaction is the key. The main issue with features introduced in the past is that features are created but not really completed or features are released without taking into consideration of how to best facilitate player interaction to generate interest in the feature.

 

[Picus of Napa]

I'll agree with this. 1997-2001 I was a hardcore PvPer...then the powers that be butchered pre-casting tank mages and added dismount/special moves hence now I am a hardcore PvMer (Trammie).

I burned through 6 Forged Metal of Artifacts putting my PvM suit together to get what I wanted. It's no different than an other high end suit that's tailor made for a specific purpose.

They stopped precast and allowed specials so you quit? Wow.

 

[Lord Nabin]

I would say those who log into the game and engage in any play style whatsoever are the ones who drive the economy. You don't have to be a buyer to drive economy. You don't have to be a seller to drive economy, You don't have to be a trader, pvper, pvmer, rares dealer, house trader, crafter, begger or thief.

You just have to be in game playing. There are always things you need and no one is totally self sufficient.

 

[NuSair]

Scripting and duping are the engine of the UO economy. Evidently a duping house was deleted the other day on Atlantic.

It's funny, I was talking with someone the other day who openly and actively scripts. But, he justifies it by saying that he doesn't script in pvp, he just scripts all the 'useless' stuff, including champ spawns on dead shards. But everyone in PVP runs X speeder program.

RMT is what drives the UO economy.

 

[Cetric]

i couldn't agree with the OP more. its amazing to see what happened to GL after all the pvp died or went elsewhere (atlantic). There is a direct correlation to the luna vendor economy and the pvp guilds quitting or leaving. I have trouble even building suits on gl anymore because there aren't vendors to supply my suit addiction, and now build anything i need on atlantic, and will soon be moving everythere there if i continue to play (because pvp is even getting boring now with the low population)

Many people farm stuff, just for pvp pieces. farm items to sell ot attend events, just to get the items, sell them, and put more into pvp.

PVP is a gigantic economy driver.



As for UO pvp in general... i cannot fathom how any other game has not built a pvp system just like UO's. The open world, where a battle can happen anywhere over anything is a gigantic plus for me. Every other game seems to be moving towards the arena style which is so boring. If i wanted that i'd just turn on call of duty.

The tactical nature of pvp in uo is unmatched, and if the neglect to pvp continues i truly believe uo will go with it. a new system really needs to be made. They continue to introduce new dungeons, revamped dungeons, what have you. They put items in there that appeal to pvp but do not create pvp. We need a new pvp engine, champ spawns got old, factions is a broken system with minimal gain. If they could blend old order/chaos and some items of factions it could be interesting and just give everyone a compelling reason to fight over something it would go very far. The champ spawn fighting is a gigantic game of tactical capture the flag and it has proved that it is a pvp engine. more, not reused ideas would be great. creating a new champ spawn is just a reused solution (new undead/demon spawns from sa) . a nice focus group of heavy pvpers would go a long way....

 

[Cetric]

Scripting and duping are the engine of the UO economy. Evidently a duping house was deleted the other day on Atlantic.

It's funny, I was talking with someone the other day who openly and actively scripts. But, he justifies it by saying that he doesn't script in pvp, he just scripts all the 'useless' stuff, including champ spawns on dead shards. But everyone in PVP runs X speeder program.

RMT is what drives the UO economy.

Its amazing isn't it? It is funny to think because, scripting is for resources, items, and skills. When it comes to pvp, you want to fight and in a hurry, and running bots, scirpting, unattended macroing, is a quick dirty solution to accomplish what is needed to get charactors, suits, you name it ready in a hurry. Apply that logic, and you realize just how much of uo is running around pvp. Think of how many people attend em events. Now sit back and realize a good majority of them are only there to get an item to turn and sell to a collector. Why did they need that gold? To create a better pvm suit? doubtful.

 

[Cetric]

Ok ill say it, PvPer are by far the worst users of programs that are, well, illegal and therefore are also the worst ones when it comes to those famos loopholes that allo for other such nefarious activities, duping, forcing insured items off characters, atc. Therefore they have amassed huge amounts of gold from means that are other than legit. therefore they dont need to farm menial taks to make their riches.

If you are a legitimate PvPer than good for you, dont bother replying i really dont care what any of you think most know I am right and will just whine about it.

PvP is not what drives this game. sorry.

If it was they would actually care the turining faction item rank requirements off and just making them cost silver will just mean that gimp PvMers will now just farm some simple silver to keep using their Faction arties in Tram

every games biggest exploiting/cheating offenders are either people trying to get an advantage on competition in some form, be it pvp, ranking boards, or people farming gold/items to make cash. I'm not sure how you turn what you are saying into an argument for pvp not driving the game.

 

[NuSair]

Why did they need that gold? To create a better pvm suit? doubtful.

As a crafter, I have to disagree with that statement. I've built a number of suits for non-pvpers that cost just as much, if not more, than a pvp suit.

I've been offered 200mil for the pvm suit I am working on now.

 

[Cetric]

As a crafter, I have to disagree with that statement. I've built a number of suits for non-pvpers that cost just as much, if not more, than a pvp suit.

I've been offered 200mil for the pvm suit I am working on now.

not what i expected. as a personal crafter, and suit addict though, i can say i've probably spent 10bill plus on gear, suits, runics, imbuing ingreds.. you name it. Just on my own suits. When i make a new suit, i really should start selling my old ones.....

 

[WolFie13]

I'm sorry to say that just to let you guy's know the ONLY reason why pvp has some aspect on the vendor thing is because most guild's are self reliant and get and farm there own things and don't need to buy anything! (my guild is one of them who don't buy nothing!!) Also the reason why they buy it is bc most of them are too lazy to go farm themselves and want everything handed to them. ( when i say most in my post's that doesn't pertain to EVERYONE!!)

IF no one hasn't noticed pvp has been dyeing well for years actually the biggest cut was when they brought in insurance to the game! And without pvm there couldn't be pvp But without pvp there would still be pvm! What i am saying is IF they took out one side of this game like pvp the game would still be alive and kicking and actually probably be more people returning IF they got rid of pvper's! And IF they got rid of pvm the game would die REAL quickly hence the fact of back in the old times they brought in tram for that reason NOT to happen! The truth is some people need to open there eyes and see that there are fel and 2 places in the abyss that you can pvp at then you talk about pvm where there is tram, tokuno, ilsh, and termur! Count up which one has more people in it now too and you will see by farrrr there are 10 x's AT LEAST more pvmer's than there are pvper's

And on the whole cheating aspect unfortuantly there are way more cheaters in the pvp side and most of them do but there are some who don't just like there are some pvmer's who cheat and run scripts! Honestly its sad that the people who script have no gaming skills and must cheat to meet there goal!
I don't understand how someone would think that killing people over and over again runs the economy!

 

[Sauteed Onion]

The dark side of that drive is cheating, but the upside is the constant need for resources, and a market for items farmed by pvm/pve. And as new content is added by the developers

Ok I cut your post some down there Llewen because this is the part i want to emphasize. Not necessarily the cheating part either. It's actually the "market for items farmed from pvm/pve and "And as new content is added by the develepors" parts.. Yes as new content is added by the developers it's the "same equipment" with extra mods on it that nullifying the need for pve/pvm farmed equipment. It isn't new.. it isn't cool. It's a slap in the face.. Now we stand at a point where they takea way the need to pvp to even get it. you just get some silver and you get it. Whammo. It doesn't matter if that gear has durability or whatever else.. It's cursed whatever. You just take a little more silver and WHAMMO you got it again.. and it's better every time with even a little extra hpr and mr on it, or hit chance increase or DCI, or whatever else. 1 piece of it, is understandable, but many suits are built with many pieces of it, again, cheapening the regular items those pvp items are used for. Take into account, the system that regulated rank was easily exploitable, like "WTB PUNKTE" was a common phrase, not so common today, but it was. I even took screen shots of a few cases, but my computer has since been reformatted and upgraded, and didn't think I'd actually be having this very conversation that those screen shots were taking for. Is there a solid answer for this? no. Because once a solution is implemented, a crafty calculating mind finds a way to exploit the system again, and so it will be over and over. That doesn't mean stop finding a solution, it means finding better answers. A good one is to make it so that all that faction stuff just comes of a person wearing it when they leave fel. They can re-equip it when they get back there. That at least makes the market viable for non faction characters for these items, and keeps factioneers beefed up in pvp areas. I'm all about pvp'ers being tough and bad to the bone, and I'm sure pvp'ers are too. They like a long enjoyable fight, with other players. I like long enjoyable fights with monsters. I can understand all that. I actually did pvp for a while, and I was HORRIBAD, like beyond imagining.. LIke every single day for like 5 months, I never killed an oppenent, lol, and died about 20 times a day. Do I have any negative feelings or comments about that? No. But I will say I did see every manner of exploit and cheat used in some way or another during that time, and not in every case or even the majority of those fights were those exploits and cheats used. But in some they were. It didn't stop the gen chat bashing though, which is another part of my not enjoying the pvp aspects.

I think faction equipment should be limited to not just factions, but to felucca ruleset areas. So, if a factioneer wants to ham out some stygian champs, without going through fel to get there, he's got to take his stuff off, walk through the tram area to get there and then put his stuff back on. once in the fel ruleset area. He's got to gear up in the non faction versions of items if he wants to participate in non faction fighting, like tram ruleset areas. Now, again, I don't think this is the best answer, but definately I think it's good enough to actually put it up, and I think it holds serious strength in people's current "solutions" and trumps many times over just doing away with faction ranks and making everything purchasable by anyone and their buddy who doesn't have any faction rank just you know.. join factions! Have some beefy goodies, we don't care about people who make their livelihood in game by killing the pvm content WOO.

 

[Madrid]

I think faction equipment should be limited to not just factions, but to felucca ruleset areas.

The only thing that should be limited to Felucca is PvP. If I'm paying the same monthly subscription fee I expect access to the same content as any and every other player in the game. ANY and ALL new content needs to be made available to everyone.

The idea that Felucca deserves special items or content is absurd. Powerscrolls should have been made available to both Trammel and Felucca they day they were introducted. And PvP'ers demanding a Felucca Tokuno, Stygian Abyss, Ter Mur...I'm all for it. All the shards should mirror eachother with no special content being made available that's not accessible to everyone else.

 

[Sauteed Onion]

I would really much like to see them put in a felucca mirror of every facet too, but that's not in the cards any more than reasonable thinking amongst those who decide what IS and is NOT. And it should ultimately be the players that are asked to come up with ideas, who's ideas should be drawn from. Also, it's worth mentioning I don't feel that's the "perfect" fix, or that it's the actual long term fix.. just a termporary one to work while they can fix my shield not constantly switching hands.. or you know put some creative effort into making spellweaving not such hassle to get a focus for at most times of the day.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well mmm that is alot of posting for toasting. I think it kinda changes over time. Some systems lock out ways to do things with out pvp. Like PS.
You kinda start tho with skill and build stats . then you buy a house and pet. Then you make suits and buy things to upgrade. Then you build skills more make your own suits. Fill your home work on your tamer. Then you master the macros to find out you did them all wrong.. Then you buy a new house and get ready for pvp. Then you see you need to buy some gold cause its gona cost you a bill for all that gear ppl use. Then you need to buy PS max out skills buy a stat 25. So you do work up to it and it takes alot of time.

Then you make a new char and this is the pvp guy but you made like 7 other chars for pvm like smithing mining fishing and you build all the chars so they can pvp and pvm but there is always that one guy that is maxed out for pvp.

Pvp is built on pvm tho and all thos other systems. It would be nice if the game was made so you could earn everything with out pvp then i would say the game has no need for gp .. Maybe there is just not enough of a game play to get all thos things you need. I always wounder if its better to have less ppl and have to spend alot more or if it would be better to have more ppl and see prices drop. How much would pvp cost if ps was in tram what if you could get stats in other ways. Would that change alot of the prices? So it might have more to do with the game systems more then just pvp.

It dose seem to be the mian goal tho you hunt the mongbat and you work your way up to the player and this is what cost so much.

 

[Sauteed Onion]

I would really much like to see them put in a felucca mirror of every facet too, but that's not in the cards any more than reasonable thinking amongst those who decide what IS and is NOT. And it should ultimately be the players that are asked to come up with ideas, who's ideas should be drawn from. Also, it's worth mentioning I don't feel that's the "perfect" fix, or that it's the actual long term fix.. just a termporary one to work while they can fix my shield not constantly switching hands.. or you know put some creative effort into making spellweaving not such hassle to get a focus for at most times of the day.

And I'm not trying to derail the thread, and I realize in hindsight, it could easily go that way by nitpicking lines out of people's on topic discussions and bringing elements in, but the thread is pvp'ers making the economy spin, and my response was to the op's realizations. It should go without reasoning a person wants to be strong, powerful, even overly powerful for alot of things they will focus on, it feels good to stomp somebody, and people pay hardcore money to be able to do it. The side effects of having a piece of gear that mirrors a piece of gear that is at length intensely grinded for by fighting a powerful boss monster that can be much more easily attained by joining a faction and not only more easily attained, much more powerful in some if not most cases, is that it devalues the item that is "grinded" for by fighting a powerful creature many times over, especially when you factor in these are % chance drops that don't frequently happen. I can totally agree if a pvp'er wants a piece of gear, and wants to focus his or her time on pvp and not doing these boss encounters to get them themselves or fight monsters to aquire the gold to buy it, then yes he should or she should have an avenue to aquire that item that focuses around pvp. But that these items are more powerful bothers me. And bothers alot who fight the monsters the faction inspired items come from. Just my meows on it.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Then the pvp ppl should not focus on the pvm ppl wearing gear. They are the ones who asked for a fix to stop it. thats how you get it all mixed up. they should never have made the same gear ether that is used in pvm if it was ment to be pvp only. thats why it cost so much cause ppl are dieing to get the items..

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Also you cant get some of the items cause it is thro tok drops I think ,so as a pvm guy you have no choice unless you wiat for the next tok event. Thats y I do not like the current faction gear and will not wear it. I have the real stuff even tho its not as good.. SO AGIAN the prices go up on somthing do to a system not so much becuase it is needed in pvp but there are not many of them..

 

[NuSair]

I am a pvm people that asked for pvm to stop wearing faction gear.

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

I am a crafter/PvM player. Three accounts + twelve years. I buy very little. Same with my guild. We help eachother out and we hunt and play the game. Most of us like high end suits and I think we have as good as the PvP people. Not the same mods just as expensive. Its interesting to make them and we already have what we need to make them. I think we are a common group of players.
As I see it , what we need to get the game last for many years is people like us and pvpers as well. But even more, the new people. They need looooots of things and want what we have. This takes many years to catch up with and they will play and pay and are dependent of others for long. To start playing is owerwhelming theese days and to catch up with old players seems impossible. It isnt, but it looks like it from their perspective. That we do to help them get started is good for everyone of us. If they get help with a functoining first suit and some information it will be good for us for a long time. The little time and effort we spend on them will give plenty in return if we make so they stay .
We are all important for the future, but its this group the one who needs to be in focus, without them we are doomed..

 

[Adol]

So did you farm this billion gold by hand? PvP players arn't stupid. We do the EM events, corguls, farm spawns and anything else that eveyone else does but we happen to fight also. We own the expensive houses and do the big trades but the focus is pvp. Join up, you have missed 12 years of the game.

Good grief; so you PvM and run EM events because that's where the money is, and the money is there because that's where the main demand for content in turn is. And "everyone else is there", so you yourself acknowledge it. But even whilst admitting that, you still claim PvP drives the game and "Anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue who really drives this game"?

Astounding, absolutely astounding.

And then you add to the argument that "Anyone who believes that 15 years of the same stuff can really be entertaining has got to be slightly insane"; Well yes, we already knew where the insanity lies... You even hark back to 1998 as if time should have stood still 15 years ago. Quick, which side of the game is always getting new content? PvM. And which isn't? PvP. So who's been doing the same stuff for 15 years even in game mechanics terms? You should know, because you're at the same content too... which you'll now justify by saying you need to be, to PvP like you've always done.

Look; no one is trying to take away your PvP. But the lack of self awareness or basic honesty is why that faction, quite apart from the personal behaviour the OP acknowledges in turn, never gets much constructive support... because it's impossible to make any sense out of the tangled mess of self justification and lack of perspective involved. Even when you're given what you claim you want (Faction changes, "Classic" shards) you argue against it because it doesn't fit your exact definition of nostalgia, which isn't even historically accurate when you explore it anyway; It's nostalgia for an age that never existed, unless you ignore everything but yourself and what it was like for you again. Just as you ignore the new content that does come through, like Arenas.

The original post isn't much better really, coming as it does from a perspective on one shard, and thus from an equally entirely self interested position; which is probably why the PvP perspective now seems far more persuasive to the original poster... because it's equally up it's own Personage. Over on Europa though, I see THP is selling his Rares Museum; 5bn or so he's asking for, and he's giving away billions in cheques as part of that deal. Anyone want to bet what drives that huge slice of our economy when it goes? It won't be someone coming in and duelling him for it, I can guarantee that....

 

[Cetric]

An arguement can be made that hardcore pvpers make the best pvmers. For whatever reason, its a psychological thing, where the pvper mentality breaks down to beating something mathemetically and efficiently. In uo, all pvp and pvm is math, those that accept that tend to be better than the rest. most probably don't even realize they are doing it but:

oh if i have 25hpi and 124 str, of course not 123! that doesn't yield a hit point!!! then i get x amount of hit points and can take this many AI's or combos and if i have x amount of hp regen i can regen x amount of hps every 10 seconds which is the equivalent of the added bonus of 35% enhance potions) and if i cast this this and this and stick that in between, toss a miniheal here, i'll maintain x amount of hit points while getting ma-fireballed from a 15sdi mage and this disrupts his fireball where i can get off this 4th circle spell before he can recovery for the next spell.......... get the point there? now.....

Translate that to pvm and its if i do 172 dmg on average every 1.25s not accounting for misses i can do a total of xx amount of dmg in a 3minute window, where as if i use this weap i can only get it to swing at a cap of 1.5s but it does x amount of dmg on average over a 20 hit sample so over a 3 minute window not accounting for misses it is slightly better and can kill xx boss 14 seconds faster so in an hour i can get xx many more down.

Doesn't matter if its suits or combat, they break down the same and it became important after imbueing. Hell people still want basic suits, and just don't understand how to fit mods together and build a whole suit rather than fit pieces together.

I can guarantee my sampire suits have been better than most pvm types on the shards it has been used on, and most people in any pvp guild can tell you the best and most effiecient way to take down any mob that yields a reward. You won't see any old pvper running around on his tamer throwing white wyrms around (well... maybe one i know of =P ) they will power game and try to be efficient and effective.

 

[Picus at the office]

The original post isn't much better really, coming as it does from a perspective on one shard, and thus from an equally entirely self interested position; which is probably why the PvP perspective now seems far more persuasive to the original poster... because it's equally up it's own Personage. Over on Europa though, I see THP is selling his Rares Museum; 5bn or so he's asking for, and he's giving away billions in cheques as part of that deal. Anyone want to bet what drives that huge slice of our economy when it goes? It won't be someone coming in and duelling him for it, I can guarantee that....

I'm not 100% sure but it would seem that the sale of this collection is a way of monitizing this game which might indicate a exit. Purly speculation of course.

I mentioned 12 years because the person I quoted said they stopped PvPing in 2000, 12 years ago. Yes there have been expansions that caught peoples attention for a short while over that time but they have all died due to lack of follow through but PvP is the only element that has seen little massive change(some but not as much as other parts of the game) yet it still keeps going. Arena fighting has nothing, the only arena that held any draw for the larger community was the TC shard where anyone could transfer to for free but I can't think of the last time I stumbled upon a fight there in t2a most people still use Wrong like we did 7 years ago and longer.

 

[NuSair]

An arguement can be made that hardcore pvpers make the best pvmers.

You can, but it would be false. Yes, there are a good number of qualities that make a top pvper that also make a top pvmer. But, I think it's more of the mindset than a play style. It's about remaking that one piece armor to get the exact break down of resist you need so you can fit that extra mod. It's about making a separate elemental 100% weapon for each spawn so you don't have to case CW. It's about know that (usually) the most efficient way to kill a creature over the long term is discord + corpse skin (if the creature can be barded). That the highest DPS in the game is a gargoyle thrower. That while AI is really cool, there are a number of times that Double Strike is better.

What it comes down to is no accepting just what will get the job done, it's about tweaking every last mod, every last number, to go to the absolute max in each way you can.

I can guarantee my sampire suits have been better than most pvm types on the shards it has been used on, and most people in any pvp guild can tell you the best and most effiecient way to take down any mob that yields a reward. You won't see any old pvper running around on his tamer throwing white wyrms around (well... maybe one i know of =P ) they will power game and try to be efficient and effective.

Just because someone doesn't actively pvp doesn't mean they are not a power gamer.

And I'll take any of those challenges. Because even if I were to lose- then I would learn something I didn't already know.

 

[Gorbs]

An arguement can be made that hardcore pvpers make the best pvmers...

I think it's time for people to stop patting themselves on the back for being a great pvp or pvm player. All of the people posting in this thread started out as pvmers. At some point, if you get interested in pvp you make a transition over and give it a shot. If you stick with it (with a few exceptions) you become very competent. If you don't...well, it probably wasn't for you. Practice makes perfect. With most of the pvm content in the game the learning curve is pretty short. I do think the pvp learning curve is a bit steeper.

 

[Widow Maker]

Ok ill say it, PvPer are by far the worst users of programs that are, well, illegal and therefore are also the worst ones when it comes to those famos loopholes that allo for other such nefarious activities, duping, forcing insured items off characters, atc. Therefore they have amassed huge amounts of gold from means that are other than legit. therefore they dont need to farm menial taks to make their riches.

If you are a legitimate PvPer than good for you, dont bother replying i really dont care what any of you think most know I am right and will just whine about it.

PvP is not what drives this game. sorry.

If it was they would actually care the turining faction item rank requirements off and just making them cost silver will just mean that gimp PvMers will now just farm some simple silver to keep using their Faction arties in Tram

Wow...you are not even in the realm of correct. The highest users of 3rd party programs are trammelites, by more than a magnitude of 100. PvP always has been and always will be the primary driving force of the economy in this game.

 

[Raptor85]

I think it's time for people to stop patting themselves on the back for being a great pvp or pvm player. All of the people posting in this thread started out as pvmers. At some point, if you get interested in pvp you make a transition over and give it a shot. If you stick with it (with a few exceptions) you become very competent. If you don't...well, it probably wasn't for you. Practice makes perfect. With most of the pvm content in the game the learning curve is pretty short. I do think the pvp learning curve is a bit steeper.

Negative, many of us who started out around launch played entirely with other players from the beginning (sparring, barfights, poorly thought through highway robbery, etc..). It wasn't until after AOS that I ever actively hunted down monsters/animals.

 

[greenwolf]

Wow...you are not even in the realm of correct. The highest users of 3rd party programs are trammelites, by more than a magnitude of 100. PvP always has been and always will be the primary driving force of the economy in this game.

Lol, so you really think killing the same people day in and day out pushes our economy? True PvPers buy things but that's because they don't want to go out and hunt for it themselves, now I'm not saying all of them but most. As we all know PVPers only want " the kill " I have seen it plenty of times, they come in raid you and leave not even bother taking the spawn. So my question is whats the point in killing each other when you get absolutely no reward from doing so, ever sense item insurance came out there has been no point. I'd much rather kill monsters and actually get some sort of reward out of it.

so does killing each other really drive the economy of UO? NO, its just something to do when people are bored. why? cause there's no drive to want to PVP, but have a bunch of trash talkers slander you name on general chat. You get nothing out of it no items absolutely nothing. Then there's always going to be someone saying the adrenaline rush you get from it, and that's why we have dueling arenas that no one ever uses right, or the same reason why siege still has a low population?.

so when you get no reward how is that driving our economy, you have nothing to show for it. when there's PVMers out there farming everything and selling everything. When PVPers are running around yew gate just killing each other because "its fun" "gives us something to do" lol what a joke!......

 

[Picus at the office]

Lol, so you really think killing the same people day in and day out pushes our economy? True PvPers buy things but that's because they don't want to go out and hunt for it themselves, now I'm not saying all of them but most. As we all know PVPers only want " the kill " I have seen it plenty of times, they come in raid you and leave not even bother taking the spawn. So my question is whats the point in killing each other when you get absolutely no reward from doing so, ever sense item insurance came out there has been no point. I'd much rather kill monsters and actually get some sort of reward out of it.

so does killing each other really drive the economy of UO? NO, its just something to do when people are bored. why? cause there's no drive to want to PVP, but have a bunch of trash talkers slander you name on general chat. You get nothing out of it no items absolutely nothing. Then there's always going to be someone saying the adrenaline rush you get from it, and that's why we have dueling arenas that no one ever uses right, or the same reason why siege still has a low population?.

so when you get no reward how is that driving our economy, you have nothing to show for it. when there's PVMers out there farming everything and selling everything. When PVPers are running around yew gate just killing each other because "its fun" "gives us something to do" lol what a joke!......

Clearly you do not get it.

The reason why people don't finish the spawn is because they hope you come back and put up a better fight thus learning and improving your defense. Before insurance no one really ran around with those invul suits of armor and the vanq weapons save for when the server went down, yes a few did if they were in a large group but it was very rare at best, but even back then it was all about the fight and the fun. People don't pvp when they are bored, they PvM when they are bored. That is when the spawns get done, the EM event or what ever but not when a good fight can be found. Slandering in gen chat only happens if you let it, don't respond and nothing gets said. Arena's suck and there is no rush, but give me being on either side of a raid and then you have fun. The gate sucks and everyone who gets stuck there is hoping that the fight moves to a spawn or a field but you don't understand and, sadly, most likey won't.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Nailed it. The OP is having delusions of grandeur about the PvP playstyle.

To qoute Woodsman "The people voted with their feet a long time ago".

Every shard I've been on I've seen diminished in player population and it has zero to do with PvP'ers migrating to a particular shard. It's quite simply the attrition of the UO playerbase without adding any new players. It's got nothing to do with either playstyle.

You just dont get it. I honestly feel sorry for you.

As quite clearly and correctly explained by the OP, pvpers are constantly learning and evolving. When you continue to do these 2 things you continue to stay focused and excited. You cannot survive in high level pvp for any amount of time if you do not constantly adapt & re-think.

On the other hand, all players that do not ever pvp for whatever reason really have no way to evolve or stay interested in the game over the long haul.
These are the people that dry up and blow away in large numbers on all shards. How many times can you re-decorate a house or how many hours can you spend peacocking your characters clothes in the Luna bank? How many times can you push the exact same 4 keys to do the exact same spawn in the exact same amount of time as the last time you did that same mindless spawn?
Dont you understand that buying up rares is mindless and will leave you poor and very bored in the end?

 

[greenwolf]

Clearly you do not get it.

The reason why people don't finish the spawn is because they hope you come back and put up a better fight thus learning and improving your defense. Before insurance no one really ran around with those invul suits of armor and the vanq weapons save for when the server went down, yes a few did if they were in a large group but it was very rare at best, but even back then it was all about the fight and the fun. People don't pvp when they are bored, they PvM when they are bored. That is when the spawns get done, the EM event or what ever but not when a good fight can be found. Slandering in gen chat only happens if you let it, don't respond and nothing gets said. Arena's suck and there is no rush, but give me being on either side of a raid and then you have fun. The gate sucks and everyone who gets stuck there is hoping that the fight moves to a spawn or a field but you don't understand and, sadly, most likey won't.

Lol really not get it?! what is there to understand? that not everyone wants to wait for other people to get their crap for them? lol that PVP is DEAD... ? That your all trying to say killing people drives the economy ? When gold and items run this economy.

How does killing people bring in revenue ??? it doesn't. As for your gate scenario you have it all wrong while you PVPers are running around " having fun " getting " the kill ". PVMers are off doing a spawn, and just saying most PVPers aren't actually doing a spawn they have a sampire come in and do it for them.

Lets just look at the odds with a "PVPer vs PvMer". when a PVMer does get raided their not built to defend themselves vs another player their prepared to defend against a monster completely different. As for defending the spawn most PVMers will let you have that spawn there's plenty of other champs to do. Clearly you don't understand that the "M" in PVM means monsters. if you want a fight go fight other PVPers derp ?!.

Although you are one of those who thinks "killing each other is fun" its sad that even you get bored of killing the same people over and over again, being that you PVM apparently when your bored, so really if that's so then how does killing people get you your gold for your PVPer.... oh wait it doesn't you play your PVMer to get the stuff you want.

What a hypocrite.

 

[kelmo]

*chuckles*

 

[Lord Nabin]

Just because someone doesn't actively pvp doesn't mean they are not a power gamer.

Totally Agree with this.

WE should start a new topic.

"What is a Power Gamer" Define it

 

[kelmo]

This thread is silly.

 

[Lord Nabin]

This thread is silly.

Aye!

 

[Driven Insane]

This thread is silly.

And been beat to death a million times before

 

[Woodsman]

"What is a Power Gamer" Define it

Power Gamer: "Somebody who plays the game exactly the way I play it."