Unattended Scripters

[MissEcho]

Bottom line is if you have ever bought gold from these sites, or let them supply items to you, or buy ingots and other resources off the 'known' vendors (ie those with regular and continually supplied 60k commodity deeds, stacks of gems, rare boards etc).

Whatever excuse you use, ie I only wanna pvp, don't want to wait to get my suit, or it is too boring, or it is a grind, I am only a casual player, don't have time etc etc pretty much heard them all.......... YOU are the problem as you are EMPLOYING the scripters.There is no BUT .....

I have always refused to knowingly 'buy' any of it, but sadly I think I am in the minority.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

YOU are the problem as you are EMPLOYING the scripters.

I can add another scenario to that... a friend that didn't have millions, nor was he any good at killing and making gold. He did spend a lot of time in game, mostly spent helping new players, and more 'troubled' players, often spending more time typing, hours on end, over swinging a sword for himself. So right or wrong, the RMT existed, money and widgets got passed around, and people got helped, in real life, with real problems, many were just teens struggling to become adults, so I don't blame him at all. just sayin

 

[Pinco]

It used to be that a LOT of people used to gather resources as there was a great market for the time in v profit. Before they nerfed the 'location nodes' to random, and ANYONE could go and get val or gold ingots etc depending on demand, there were a lot more miners out there and the price was good, but not unreasonable. The scripters, while active were held in check as anyone could gather a decent amount for a bit of time. Now not only do the scripters have all the time in the world, the prices for val etc are totally jacked up so that only the very rich can even afford to buy them. It doesn't bother someone who presses a 'GO' button and walks away and comes back hours later to see what 'haul' they have in both quantity and color. I would basically say anyone who is selling 60k deeds in val etc is 90% or greater scripting those ingots.

The last time I sold val ingots was long before the ores became random, mainly as scripters then were driving the price down so it wasn't really worth selling them, now they are driving it UP as the average miner would be lucky to score 100 val ingots in any mining session of a few hours.

Just because YOU don't mine, please don't assume that there aren't a lot of us closet miners out here. Unless you have surveyed all miners. Basically even miners now are forced to 'buy' those ingots as they can't compete and the randomness of ore veins makes it too time consuming to find the spots for 1000 ingots only to have those spots disappear next time they go out.

The whole thing is screwed and basically set up for the scripters.

I used to mine, but I don't have enough time to get an acceptable amount of ore... like you said you need much more time than before to gather colored ore, and mining for 1 hour is useless... so if I need resources I go and buy it.
For the same reason if there are no scripters the crafting will be over

 

[Driven Insane]

YOU are the problem as you are EMPLOYING the scripters.

Let me tell you guys the 3 reasons I quit about 3 years ago.

1. RL got super busy.
2. Forced to join Factions in order to stay competitive in PvP.
3. Unchecked cheating in every single aspect of this game.

Cheating does make people quit.

I know most people won't agree with what I'm about to say, but I've done my part to stop Scripters. I have not boughten a single item from another player in over 10 years. Not a piece of furniture, an arti, a resource. Nothing. If I can't earn it myself, then I do without. And even if it meant I had to go around Doom every night for 2 years straight in order to finally get an Orni, then so be it. I will not, in any way give my gold/money to the very people who have trashed the game I love.

Yes it would be nice if the Devs actually made a real attempt to ban cheaters, which even if they didn't get them all, word would get around. Just like word gets around that UO is a cheat friendly game. But I've seen ZERO effort since day one to remove cheaters and probably never will.

I just accepted the fact that UO is the type of game I enjoy, and I've done my part to stop Scripters. Maybe if more people would do the same, and stop letting these leeches ruin our game, this game might actually improve and attract more of the types of people I'd rather see playing. But unfortunately I feel like I'm in the minority and that the "Easy" way out dominates not only this game, but our real lives.

 

[kRUXCg7]

And even if it meant I had to go around Doom every night for 2 years straight in order to finally get an Orni, then so be it.

mhh now we all know why you chose your nickname here!
No offense meant. Doom for me is just another example of game design made for automated script users. Not necessarily as easy as mining, but this only adds to their success, having not only mastered mining and lumberjacking, but also monster fightings. I think this thread is lacking a perspective: I know that players feel bad about others doing so many things automatically and even feel hatred for people selling items for real world money. But I also know people use the 'illegal things' "just for fun" and in no way for real money trades. In addition to the points that have already been mentioned herein (tediousness / boredom of clicks, a massive need for ingots, ...), some think of scripting as a fun thing. Maybe real world programmers or aspiring computer science students, I don't really know, just an assumption. Maybe they do it to train their programming skills. I have talked to one or two of them and I don't think they feel their doings are wrong, their idea of UO apparently is... more abstract. UO seems to be just one another piece of computer software, not a 'world' or 'universe' of its own. Let me conclude that I am sure that there are many reasons people could have for their evil, game-destroying doings: Lack of care, real money trades, lack of free time to play, simple and outrageous greed, ... But it's not black-and-white only IMHO. I have even met roleplayers using the evil tools, be it for ingots or for skill training. I am not happy with the actions of many players. Be it the usage of foul language, be it 24/7-scripting for real money trades, be it real evil scams. But then again, if you look at the various reasons why people do what they do, the world is no longer black and white. I am sure it would need quite a huge change in game mechanics to make the scripters really stop - and I guess it would at first mean making things a lot easier, e.g. mining probably would give you 1000 valorites per hour always, so it would be pointless to automate that. I understand perfectly this would devalue greatly the labour of crafting people. I, too, had started as a lumberjack and miner and hardly did anything beyond for a long time initially. I now know I was missing some of the fun, apparently. And even todays I sometimes go mining, just for fun, as many others do. I think it's not easy to do anything about it. My fear: If you start mass bannings of people using unapproved software, you will be doing just that: mass bannings. I think it's too many people using the software. On the other hand, there are those real money traders... what can be done about them? If they were successfully banned for all future - not that I think it could be done easily - a lot of people would miss their vendor search sites, I bet. And there are also people who buy gold and items from them - apparently the websites do mean business. Thus I have to assume they do make real money. I bet it's more than US $ 50 per day. That means - there must be people actually buy items and gold. Would they be willing to come back to us and play the game again, go mining, lumberjacking or even hunt for artifacts and powerscrolls? Would they? Or would they leave the game? I have to add that I have no idea how much business there is going on. If there are only one or two people being RMT sellers and running scripts their loss should be less of an impact to the game than I am asssuming now. Right now I see several websites fully stocked with all items you could possibly ever want or need. I don't think we are talking about only 10 or 20 players buying items from them.

I would really hate, no let me rephrase it: I would HATE to see any half-hearted ignorant changes again like the anti-macroing code which had forced us to use ships (!) to train skills like magery (or, alternatively, about six years of constant training). Tedious things like this ignorant anti-macro-code and the ever-boring Doom made me stop for several years. I am sure this kind of tediousness was a reason to stray away for a lot of people. Naturally script users adapted quite swiftly and I would believe paid character trainings were quite a big seller when UO had the anti-macro-code. I am very happy that they have given up on that nonsense. It forced a very mechanical gameplay on legitimate players. This IMHO had actually helped the script users "reign" over the others.

 

[garillo]

EM Event.

Public lynchings.

Rare event items, noose with name of hung scripter.

Just a few every week for the lulz.

 

[Orgional Farimir]

Bottom line is if you have ever bought gold from these sites, or let them supply items to you, or buy ingots and other resources off the 'known' vendors (ie those with regular and continually supplied 60k commodity deeds, stacks of gems, rare boards etc).

Whatever excuse you use, ie I only wanna pvp, don't want to wait to get my suit, or it is too boring, or it is a grind, I am only a casual player, don't have time etc etc pretty much heard them all.......... YOU are the problem as you are EMPLOYING the scripters.There is no BUT .....

I have always refused to knowingly 'buy' any of it, but sadly I think I am in the minority.

Yes I do keep them employeed and will continue to do so. Back when UO first came out there was not a need for it. Life was much slower for a lot of people. Now with life becoming more and more fast pace, employers, schools, and family demanding more and more people do not have time to grind.

I just wish EA would learn from the scripters and offer every type of ore, wood, and other resources for sell as a gold sink. I also wish EA would sell UO gold cheaper than the web pages that shouldn't be named. It would be a great way for EA to bring in a little bit extra revune for UO and help git rid of the scripters.

 

[Thav12]

UO is simply too time consuming, particularly given the inflation that has taken place over the last decade and a half. The righteous say: it is because of scripting, thus fix that and all will return to the way it was. The practical folks say: let's condone some degree of scripting, find a balance, to maintain a reasonable player base to keep this game running for as long as possible.

Could it be that both are right?

The problem is that there is no way to get from our current economy back to one that is predicated on a non-scripted based economy without letting years pass. It will require retweaking of various game systems that currently only work well with an abundance of resources for cheap in mind and this reverse engineering and undoing of the UO evolution will take a tremendous amount of time and dev resources. Ideally, I think a lot of people would agree that this would be virtuous and awesome.

However, most people I know in the game do not have the time to dedicate hours and hours to get enough resources to maintain the way they have become accustomed to be playing UO. You could say, ok, this is inevitable and how it is "intended" to be, and in due time it will all be balanced again. Unfortunately, I don't think that is a viable solution with an ever smaller player base. Too many would quit. I would.

Although the purists on this forum always rag on scripting, evoke ToS and other rules constantly, the reality of UO is that over 15 years the game has implemented so many actions and counteractions to balance out the effect of scripting that to undo all of that is as impossible as undoing scripting altogether.

I am not advocating for suddenly approving of scripting. Leave it as is. Continue to make it a bannable offense. But be realistic, it won't be strictly enforced. And that is ok. If things become too upsetting for the game, the ban-hammer can be wielded. At the same time people can continue to train poisoning while in their fel house semi-attended with a small risk of some clown paging on them while they are eating supper. That is what most 'scripters' do. They don't run their pc 24/7 to mine ore. They could, but they don't. Maybe they run a script for two days when they need resources to GM some skill for the millionth time, rather than spending weeks gathering 6 mil in gold... But then it is off having months of non-scripted fun again...

Undoing all of that, killing the search sites, making people gather their own resources, it will kill the game. Go to the crafter forum. Read up on how many runics and resources it takes to make a competitive pvp suit and realize not a single crafter on that forum has enough time in their lives to gather all that stuff required. Even if one or two do, the other 900 don't. And if you kill their game, they are gone. Game dead, game over.

The evolution of this game can not be undone, and love it or hate it, scripting has been part of this game since day one. Personally, I don't script for resources because I buy them. Have I macro'd Magery and necro on three different shards and on six characters for my pvp across shards. You bet your behind I did. If I had not been able to do that, I would have quit this game a long time ago. Call me evil, but at the same time I care for this game more than many. Therein lies the balance.... I don't believe in righteousness. If you rather see me gone from this game because I don't have the time to spend on gaining a skill for the umpteenth time, than call the GM's and have me banned. I think you rather see me be a fun and contributing player on your shard and a healthy participant, be it part-time, of your community. I don't think all scripts and scripters are evil. In pvp, I don't use scripts as it doesn't make me feel a winner if I kill someone while my bot heals me. In fact, I exclusively play the EC. do I hate a pvp opponent who glitches by me with his speeder and heals up with apples, bandages and pots faster than any man can even move their fingers to click a mouse button? No! Their is no prize at the end. I don't really loose anything. I gain bragging rights, call him out and expose him, like I have done for a decade. And I actually value his presence as an opponent and paying member of this community. I strategerize (not a real word) find friends, beat him over the head and steal his champ. Great fun! Without the scripting in the game, the fun factor would not be that much greater...

I am a little weary of a lot of the long time righteous posters here... I think their righteousness is directly related to the amount of time they can spend on this game due to retirement, unemployment or otherwise. I value their contributions to this game tremendously, but the majority of current subscribers are not in this category, yet help maintain the game nevertheless.

 

[Nimuaq]

The argument that some of the players can only have fun from the game when they skip the time consuming process of training, resource gathering etc. and scripts and scripters provide an easy solution for them, thus they are in fact helping the game, is flawed for many reasons.

Also, let us draw a distinction, we're not talking about selling or buying virtual property, that is a very complicated subject which no one has an immediate answer to even the legality of it. However, if I understand it correctly, you say that the end products of the scripting (whether skill points, resources, gold or any other commodity) make the game more enjoyable for some players and they "would have quit this game a long time ago" if not for scripting, even though they "care for this game more than many".

Then why don't they play in TC1? They can set their skill level instantaneously and they can get any amount of resources and rare artifacts they like.

 

[Thav12]

It is not flawed because you say it is. It is realistic. As I outlined above, it is not right or wrong.

 

[Thav12]

I don't want to get pigeonholed into saying scripting is right. The dilemma is that it is as much part of the game as anything in this flawed 15 year old game. However, I am just as much part of this community as you are. The reality is that I have found a balance in playing this game with you, for better or for worse. I just think that enjoying the game for what it is is better than trying to reverse it to an idealistic state that a) can never be achieved, and b) alienates the majority of players who have found ways (with or without scripting) to enjoy this game with you. As much as you want me to gather 1.2 milion boards by hand for a 10 hld set of goggles, which will take me 10 years, I say let's be realistic: that is not going to happen. I will buy them for 8 milion gold. And as many have deduced correctly, that means that somewhere and somehow, i keep a scriptor alive by paying him for his scripted efforts. And than you and I have a choice: either we continue the game together as is, or we go through the painstakingly difficult and time consuming process to reverse all this by eliminating scripting and enforcing it with an exceedingly large cost and chance of failure. As much as I agree with you and other righteous posters in principle, I just don't see a realistic way out. And I am ok with paying the 8 mil for the 1.2 milion boards, and with the scripter getting them for me. Not from a moral right/wrong perspective, but because of a realistic notion that it is impossible to go through the process of fixing the economy and eliminating the scripters entirely. With respect to skill scripting, I think I could write a similar essay. The bottom line in my opinion is this: in the current state of the game, do you want to continue to play with the absolute majority that uses some third party program or script to aid their game (and in 13 years I have not yet encountered a player in vent that has not admitted to me to using some program at some point, only here on statics) or do you want to be righteous, fix the broken parts and be with a very select group to celebrate the moral victory on the last day of UO and shoot fireworks into the air? I think my post represents a significant number of players. I would love to see it fixed, no scripters and economy back to normal, but I just don't think that is realistically possible. And thus, I rather continue the status quo than blow it all to pieces to placate some moral sense of superiority that lives among a handful of statics posters.

Oh and why not tc1? Because we like to play together in the same community. We have found a balance. It is flawed, but it is there. I think most people play this game because of the community aspects and sense of real world economy. Neither exist on TC1.

 

[Mirt]

It is not flawed because you say it is. It is realistic. As I outlined above, it is not right or wrong.

No its wrong. You are cutting other folks that are not cheating out of the game and the economy. Cheating is wrong and takes many people out of the game. The few that would leave at actually having to become part of the economy would be more then made up for by folks willing to play again now that they are a part of it.

 

[Thav12]

No its wrong. You are cutting other folks that are not cheating out of the game and the economy. Cheating is wrong and takes many people out of the game. The few that would leave at actually having to become part of the economy would be more then made up for by folks willing to play again now that they are a part of it.

No mirt. We have been playing this game side by side for as long as we have played this game. You are here, I am here. And again, i am not letting myself being pigeonholed as a scripter and cheater. You cheated as much as I have, simply by buying the stuff you bought in Luna over the years. The people that left did so because they were bored. If they left because of all the rampant cheating, they would have left after the first week this game came out. There is no ideal state we can get our game to get back to, as it never existed. Why would it work now, if it has not been able to be fixed in 14 years? Not theoretically, but realistically?

Lastly, even if I were to agree with you, and I do to some extent, how could you possibly revert 14 years of neglect and adjustments? Realistically you can't, and thus I rather continue to play side by side with you for another 15 years. (I don't know you personally, but metaphorically speaking I play with you every day. And you may even like me and value me as a treasured part of your daily life...)

 

[Mirt]

No mirt. We have been playing this game side by side for as long as we have played this game. You are here, I am here. And again, i am not letting myself being pigeonholed as a scripter and cheater. You cheated as much as I have, simply by buying the stuff you bought in Luna over the years. The people that left did so because they were bored. If they left because of all the rampant cheating, they would have left after the first week this game came out. There is no ideal state we can get our game to get back to, as it never existed. Why would it work now, if it has not been able to be fixed in 14 years? Not theoretically, but realistically?

Lastly, even if I were to agree with you, and I do to some extent, how could you possibly revert 14 years of neglect and adjustments? Realistically you can't, and thus I rather continue to play side by side with you for another 15 years. (I don't know you personally, but metaphorically speaking I play with you every day. And you may even like me and value me as a treasured part of your daily life...)

Well me. I would hit those folks that were the most blantent with a great big old ban stick. I would have their possesions be destroyed and I would make it know that you script you get banned. Then after the warning that is what I would do. Also just so you know I haven't bought much in luna with the exceptions of repair deeds and swampie armor. I bought those from someone I trust as not being a scripter. I don't BOD so resources have not been a huge issue for me so far but if they become that way well I have mined since I came back in fact my first char that I made coming back is a miner. Many of the crafters and miners left not becuase they were bored but simply becuase there was no market for them anymore. You hit scripters with the ban hammer that market would eventually come back as demand did. Also things have gotten much worse over time as it relates to scripting. Also they have never gotten serious in the past 14 years about it but they sure could. I am not sure who you are but I make very sure that I do not violate the TOS. While I know some folks that script I am very upfront with them about how I feel on the subject. If everyone was like that its likely that this would go away. It would just be the first start of what we be some painful economic shock therapy but in the end it would be better for the game. Also just so you know there was a time when mining wasn't scripted because there was no real incentive to do that and connections were iffy. There are still ways to go back to it. Your basically saying yes people steal but folks have always stolen so why should we have jail. I do not think that just becuase there is a problem we should throw our hands up and acknoweledge that the economy is dead and there is nothing that we should even try to correct it. Thats surrender and I am not one for surrendering.

 

[garillo]

Make it an all or nothing thing. I believe that's the goal. Don't tell one group of people they can't do it because it's illegal while not enforcing it on another group.

Everyone keeps thinking you have to make drastic changes to stop these guys. YOU DONT. You have to make it inefficient to script to beat it. Set up vendors with all the ore/resource types available for purchase. It's a gold sink. Make the prices never change so you can't script it forever and drive the prices up. It levels the playing field.

You don't NEED any runics for a great pvp suit, unless you're too dim to apply what imbuing can do for you. If you don't agree with this statement, get those 3-4 spined kits so you can add 5 hci/dci to a piece. It's not like losing an arm or a leg over it, unless you're choosing to play the runic lottery for CRAZY gear.

Increase drop rates of seeds of renewal, runic kits, and set up vendors with resources. There's a chunk of problems fixed.

It's not like the population is asking for spawns to be changed so sampires can't afk rail them. Make it not worth the while to script, or allow everyone to do it.

 

[Nimuaq]

I know how you want to play the game, you just don't want to -as Mark Gerhard once said- "compete on a level playing field as everyone else does and play in the true spirit of the game, with integrity".

I play this game too and I don't see the "absolute majority that uses some third party program or script to aid their game" and I don't "like to play together in the same community" with you. While you see the "righteous" playing style unrealistic, it is in fact how it is designed: it is supposed to be challenging. Most of the participants of the discussion offer suggestions to level the playing field again. Some even suggest to allow scripting to some extent. However, your suggestion of inaction is ironic since you say this is irreversible because of "14 years of neglect and adjustments".

 

[Thav12]

That is not irony...

What is ironic is that we all play the same game and have such disparate views of this game.

That fact essentially proofs my point.

But I will bite and feed the righteous:

Give me one realistic scenario that will lead to a UO world without scripters, a closed economy where demands are fair and not overwhelming in terms of time demands, and with a healthy thriving population that is gloriously celebrating the absence of cheaters in every aspect of the game?


If a realistic scenario can be offered, I would not be against it. In fact, i would be all over it. However, in the past 13 years I have not read a single feasible solution, nor have I seen the devs take serious steps towards implementation arguing the same point.

To those that claim they never benefitted from scripts or cheats I would like to say that they are diluting them selves in believing that they somehow live in a separate shadow economy. I don't think so. We are all as much victims as perpetrators in the UO economy.

 

[Mirt]

That is not irony...

What is ironic is that we all play the same game and have such disparate views of this game.

That fact essentially proofs my point.

But I will bite and feed the righteous:

Give me one realistic scenario that will lead to a UO world without scripters, a closed economy where demands are fair and not overwhelming in terms of time demands, and with a healthy thriving population that is gloriously celebrating the absence of cheaters in every aspect of the game?


If a realistic scenario can be offered, I would not be against it. In fact, i would be all over it. However, in the past 13 years I have not read a single feasible solution, nor have I seen the devs take serious steps towards implementation arguing the same point.

To those that claim they never benefitted from scripts or cheats I would like to say that they are diluting them selves in believing that they somehow live in a separate shadow economy. I don't think so. We are all as much victims as perpetrators in the UO economy.

Well first ban the scripters. Then your going to have to buy to folks that are selling things based on their actual time put in. I remember before colored ingots that iron was going for 9gp an ingot I would assume that would be adjusted for inflation and then folks would start selling again. Of course it would cost more money but in the end those selling the ingots would need something you had and the economy would get better.

 

[Thav12]

Make it an all or nothing thing. I believe that's the goal. Don't tell one group of people they can't do it because it's illegal while not enforcing it on another group.

Everyone keeps thinking you have to make drastic changes to stop these guys. YOU DONT. You have to make it inefficient to script to beat it. Set up vendors with all the ore/resource types available for purchase. It's a gold sink. Make the prices never change so you can't script it forever and drive the prices up. It levels the playing field.

You don't NEED any runics for a great pvp suit, unless you're too dim to apply what imbuing can do for you. If you don't agree with this statement, get those 3-4 spined kits so you can add 5 hci/dci to a piece. It's not like losing an arm or a leg over it, unless you're choosing to play the runic lottery for CRAZY gear.

Increase drop rates of seeds of renewal, runic kits, and set up vendors with resources. There's a chunk of problems fixed.

It's not like the population is asking for spawns to be changed so sampires can't afk rail them. Make it not worth the while to script, or allow everyone to do it.

Mostly correct, but by devaluating one resource, something else will be worthwhile... That is why it is so hard to get rid of scripting...

 

[Thav12]

Well first ban the scripters. Then your going to have to buy to folks that are selling things based on their actual time put in. I remember before colored ingots that iron was going for 9gp an ingot I would assume that would be adjusted for inflation and then folks would start selling again. Of course it would cost more money but in the end those selling the ingots would need something you had and the economy would get better.

How?

This is an answer to a question that I didn't ask. I already know "what".

 

[Mirt]

How?

This is an answer to a question that I didn't ask. I already know "what".

How would you ban them? Or how would people buy and sell things? Or are you asking what folks would want that you have? The banning would actually be pretty easy as the scripts do affect the data stream or they could do what every other game does to find scripters. Buying and selling things is a bit of a large topic. I am not sure how you like to play, as I said you may know me but I have no idea who you are, but a short list of things players seem to want are artifacts, powerscrolls, nexus deeds, city banners, vet rewards, pinks and blues, deco and of course there is always that old stand by of gold. There are some other things that can sell like music box gears and fish and crabs. Of course all of that is based on stopping the scripters first.

 

[Nimuaq]

However, in the past 13 years I have not read a single feasible solution, nor have I seen the devs take serious steps towards implementation arguing the same point.

I wonder if they are still researching, as they were 13 years ago (The In-game Economics of Ultima Online)

As much as I don't agree with your points, I do appreciate the civil discussion .

 

[Thav12]

I wonder if they are still researching, as they were 13 years ago (The In-game Economics of Ultima Online)

As much as I don't agree with your points, I do appreciate the civil discussion .

That article is awesome. I read this and articles like it years ago and talked about it for ever. It is such a cool concept to have a closed economy to actually use as an experimental environment.

Civil discussions are cool, I agree

 

[Mirt]

That article is awesome. I read this and articles like it years ago and talked about it for ever. It is such a cool concept to have a closed economy to actually use as an experimental environment.

Civil discussions are cool, I agree

Sadly I do think that one study that was being done ended but it is a very interesting idea to see an economy essentially without governance. It has been very civil but Thav12 do I know you are you on Chesy or do you know me from the boards? Its always odd when I don't know who I am talking to, which has been happening a lot on stratics. I mean UO is a small world.

 

[smip]

I have a freind who was talking about rap music in gen chat last tuesday who mistakenly added a E to the end of rap and is now taking a nice three day break even though it was a clear mistype. This is where your dollars are being spent.

Said chicken little or the boy that cried wolf. If you're going to make a point at least be orriginal about it. It always seems that someone has a friend or a friend of a friend that "accidently" does or says something wrong and gets a time out within 2 seconds of "accidently" saying or doing the wrongdoing.

GM's don't go around banning folks who are in good standing for accidents. They REALLY do have better things to do. In 14 years of playing I have NEVER known someone who had gotten banned for "accidently" doing something. Maybe a warning...

They have been trying for years to stop scripters. There are more than GM's can handle. All we can do is report them as we see them. Their day will come. Them GM's just can't pop in and ban without good cause. I do know that if scripters do not respond to the GM's then they can put them in jail till the GM can prove that the person was afk while doing activities. The scripters have gotten pretty smart to not get caulght. Several years ago I heard of a script that when a GM or anyone talks or whispers to a scripter an alarm of some sorts would go off so the scripter returns to the keyboard. Only rumor that is. I don't know. That's what the word was a few years back.

If I see a scripter.. lets say mining.. I make it a point to try to stand where the scripter recalls to. If they can't recall to a spot then they can't do their scripting there. While it is illegal to purposly block spaces with items, there is nothing in the rules that says you can not stand in a spot and do your activities so long as you are not afk too.

So just report people that you suspect are scripting. They will eventually get caulght.

 

[Thav12]

Sadly I do think that one study that was being done ended but it is a very interesting idea to see an economy essentially without governance. It has been very civil but Thav12 do I know you are you on Chesy or do you know me from the boards? Its always odd when I don't know who I am talking to, which has been happening a lot on stratics. I mean UO is a small world.

I do play on chessy, and I do not know what characters you play, nor do you know which ones I play.. It is very well possible that our characters know each other, but I doubt that we met in a vent server before.

I sort of metaphorically stated that we play together, and it is actually hilarious to see and read that we actually do play together on the same shard! It is a very small world indeed.

 

[Mirt]

I do play on chessy, and I do not know what characters you play, nor do you know which ones I play.. It is very well possible that our characters know each other, but I doubt that we met in a vent server before.

I sort of metaphorically stated that we play together, and it is actually hilarious to see and read that we actually do play together on the same shard! It is a very small world indeed.

It really is I play Mirt as my main but wow that is amazing just how small a world it is I am sure we have seen each other at some point. But I would like to think I would remember someone that I have been in vent with but then again who knows.

 

[Theo_GL]

If a realistic scenario can be offered, I would not be against it. In fact, i would be all over it. However, in the past 13 years I have not read a single feasible solution, nor have I seen the devs take serious steps towards implementation arguing the same point.

If I ran the UO Dev team I would:

1 - Remove as much as possible the pure grinds in the game that encourage scripting. You can fix community collections easily by changing the gold to points ratio. If you could turn in 2mil gold worth of battle axes for mace and sheild OR 4m gold in checks - scripters would not do the quest for 2 days straight to make 2m gold. Right now its 12 mil gold so its scripters paradise. They get them via scripting for 2m and sell for 8m and make a killing. You can fix heartwood quests like 10 diff ways to make it more interesting to get runics besides making 10k stools. Etc etc.
2 - I would add an option to the 'help menu' for reporting unattended scripting instead of having to page under physical harassment. Once a page is received, I would have a ToS that stated it would be addressed within 30min. On my shard in question you can go a full day before you get a message back that your page is 'being looked into'. Thats just ridiculous.
3 - I would have metrics that 'log' key activities per character and account. I would investigate any accounts that passed certain threshholds and monitor their actions. Example - If you mine more than 10k ingots in a day, or do more than 500 heartwood quests, etc. These hard core scripts that run 8-10 hours a day are insane.

At the end of the day - if you take the grinds out of the game and replace them with 'fun and meaningful' activities that cannot be scripted or reduce the value of scripting -the problem goes away. For example - bods and runics were irrelevant for some time and ingot scripting fell off a cliff. Why? No one really needed ingots anymore. Ever since reforging and bod bribes - the ingot scripting has picked up. The opposite is now true of bod scripting- no point in gathering hundreds of bods a day anymore when anyone can complete a val runic bod with little work.

The biggest way to combat scripting is to change the game to not encourage scripting/farming. In the short term - actually enforce the rules and respond to pages. Taking a day or more to respond to a player page is simply appalling. There are only a few thousand people playing this game - how busy can our 1 GM be?

 

[Thav12]

If I ran the UO Dev team I would:

1 - Remove as much as possible the pure grinds in the game that encourage scripting. You can fix community collections easily by changing the gold to points ratio. If you could turn in 2mil gold worth of battle axes for mace and sheild OR 4m gold in checks - scripters would not do the quest for 2 days straight to make 2m gold. Right now its 12 mil gold so its scripters paradise. They get them via scripting for 2m and sell for 8m and make a killing. You can fix heartwood quests like 10 diff ways to make it more interesting to get runics besides making 10k stools. Etc etc.
2 - I would add an option to the 'help menu' for reporting unattended scripting instead of having to page under physical harassment. Once a page is received, I would have a ToS that stated it would be addressed within 30min. On my shard in question you can go a full day before you get a message back that your page is 'being looked into'. Thats just ridiculous.
3 - I would have metrics that 'log' key activities per character and account. I would investigate any accounts that passed certain threshholds and monitor their actions. Example - If you mine more than 10k ingots in a day, or do more than 500 heartwood quests, etc. These hard core scripts that run 8-10 hours a day are insane.

At the end of the day - if you take the grinds out of the game and replace them with 'fun and meaningful' activities that cannot be scripted or reduce the value of scripting -the problem goes away. For example - bods and runics were irrelevant for some time and ingot scripting fell off a cliff. Why? No one really needed ingots anymore. Ever since reforging and bod bribes - the ingot scripting has picked up. The opposite is now true of bod scripting- no point in gathering hundreds of bods a day anymore when anyone can complete a val runic bod with little work.

The biggest way to combat scripting is to change the game to not encourage scripting/farming. In the short term - actually enforce the rules and respond to pages. Taking a day or more to respond to a player page is simply appalling. There are only a few thousand people playing this game - how busy can our 1 GM be?

Theo:

1. By deflating the value of one thing, the relative value of another goes up. The target of the script will shift, but the script will continue to be deployed. Ultimately, gold can be scripted.... Or any other barter good for that matter

2. Getting more resources, people, to enforce the rules is expensive. This has not happened in the past and is unlikely to happen in the future. The opposite trend is taking place with less people and resources being dedicated to this process.

3. Two issues: 1. The clicks per hour metric in one shape or form can be gamed. 2. Most scripters are not of the 24/7 variety. By itself I think this has a good chance of working, if you don't mind a very high false positive rate. This will however not be acceptable by a lot of people. Imagine the burden of proof on your shoulders having to proof that you legitimately performed task x 5000 times in a game you PAY to play. No way that any company is going to go that route.

I agree that taking the grinds out would work, but then again, we are not playing Mario bros. on the nintendo. Think about it, there is even glitching and scripting in games like call of duty and other fps, as soon as there is some gain to be had from any play-over-time gain system. These grinds are very hard to avoid in MMORPGs and impossible to remove from UO, where almost all game systems have some grind or random reward over time construct to keep people hooked...

Seriously, there is no good way to do away with it, and thus we end up in this status quo. Fixing one but not the other leads to the demise of the game.

 

[Woodsman]

Yes it would be nice if the Devs actually made a real attempt to ban cheaters, which even if they didn't get them all, word would get around. Just like word gets around that UO is a cheat friendly game. But I've seen ZERO effort since day one to remove cheaters and probably never will.

The devs have made some incredibly high profile bannings in the past, so they have worked to combat cheating in the past. Cal made an announcement about bannings in 2010.

Here's the Stratics thread:

The Bans are happening in droves! | Stratics Forums

Here's some of Cal's comments:

Producer's Update - 9/10/2010 | Mythic Entertainment | Ultima Online

What’s going on with 3rd party program detection?

This week the first series of actions took place on 3rd party program use offenders. I will not share numbers or specifics on account names, locations of offenders, or how often we will take action.

Criteria for taking action are based on frequency of the offense. For example, account X was found using program Y, Z number of times. This implies that the account/player willfully violated the terms of the game. High frequency violators will be removed from the game. Low frequency violators will be warned and in time suspended if the offense continues.

This was another example, from 2006:

More Than 400 Dupers Banned, Tens of Thousands of Items Deleted

After a month-long investigation and a thorough review of all involved, we:

• banned more than 400 accounts,
• deleted more than 100,000 illegally duplicated items, and
• deleted more than one trillion in gold.

More importantly, the bugs that allowed this particular kind of illegal duplication have been fixed. Also, duping and exploit prevention/detection systems have been in place for some time now - systems that help us to identify and eliminate cheaters.

We take all forms of cheating extremely seriously, especially cheats that affect the in game economy and devalue the hard work of honest players. We will never stop investigating and solving these issues, and appreciate very much those of you who contribute to the fight against cheating. We’ve had to keep these developments quiet until we completed our investigations, but we are very proud to be able to make this announcement today.

Also:

If you cannot find your vendor after today's bannings, it is because we set it in quarantine until we could speak with the owner. We apologize for any inconvenience, and ask that you page a GM as soon as you can to retrieve your belongings. Your items will be returned to you at our discretion. Thanks!

There have even been individual guilds hit and players warned - I remember there was a group on Chessy that had moved to another Siege, I think in 1999 or 2000, that had a few hundred members warned and then a bunch banned for the association.

If people were banned in 2010, then that means the scripters are not being kept around for economic reasons.

 

[Woodsman]

Give me one realistic scenario that will lead to a UO world without scripters, a closed economy where demands are fair and not overwhelming in terms of time demands, and with a healthy thriving population that is gloriously celebrating the absence of cheaters in every aspect of the game?

There will always be a certain percentage of people who either want to make easy real life money through games like UO, or who are unwilling to compete against other players without some kind of advantage.

Every game has those players. Blizzard deals with it a lot harsher than most other MMOs, and they've got software built into the client to detect it. Blizzard is doing something unique with Diablo III - making it easy for regular players to sell and buy for real-life money. Not sure how that will work out for them. BioWare is having to deal with people who are scripting in SWTOR and they've put certain things in to detect it.

What I know is this: Every single day I login , if I go to Luna or a few other areas, I see scripters. Every time I visit Luna on say the top 10 shards, I can find the scripters doing their routes.

There have been people banned for less. These people do it right in front of everybody, and they doing it for their search and UO gold websites that are selling gold and resources that were scripted as well.

As Jeff Skalski said, they are devaluing the game. As Cal told others in 2011, they were aware of the Luna scripters and monitoring them.

They can't ban all scripters, but they could make some really high-profile bans and at least put the fear into others and reduce the scripting some. That's better than nothing.

 

[Woodsman]

Can somebody who is on Jeff's twitter list show him this thread, and ask him to clarify his statements and maybe respond to the thread?

 

[Pinco]

Can somebody who is on Jeff's twitter list show him this thread, and ask him to clarify his statements and maybe respond to the thread?

yes, let's ban the few 15-20 people remaining so we can hear the echo when you are alone at luna bank

You don't know, but the bots around here are the best fri

Actually the scripters are about 50% of the remaining population and the other 40% is friend of the scripters (10% are bank sitters so they don't counts)... if they ban them all UO starts to take a meaning in its name (Ultima in italian means "Last").
They can add the motto "There can be only one" so there will be some challenge in NOT quit the game because the last player will get a prize

Jokes apart, before banning they must rethink the very soul of the game... I think that if they change all those grinding activities in something more fun, there will be less scripters and more players around.
Many of us have already posted hundreds ideas around this forum if they need some inspirations

 

[Woodsman]

Jokes apart, before banning they must rethink the very soul of the game... I think that if they change all those grinding activities in something more fun, there will be less scripters and more players around.

I agree with that - I believe that changes were made to the game that made it easy for the scripters to find things that they could take advantage of.

A lot of us would just like to hear more about the issue from the dev team. It was very impressive that Watchertoo from Stratics got Jeff to comment, but Jeff's comments confused a lot of people.

 

[Thav12]

It is a circular argument. All of it is important. However, to fix any of it, you have to fix it all. That would be almost a redesign of the game.

The other aspect that can't be forgotten about is that the game needs to constantly innovate and renew to stay relevant. What drives people away more than anything is a lack of new additions. We are happy, lack some crack babies, every time the devs recycle some known game mechanic, poor a new coat of graphics over it and introduce the next grind. And by happy, I mean it, happy. That is what an MMORPG is essentially. WoW is no different. So to proclaim that the grind needs to disappear is to wish for the game to end. I think we should not overstate what this game is. I would argue again that scripting is only marginally causing unhappiness in the game. Everyone has found something to do, to grind, to repeat, to hang out, anything, that filled a need, a craving to stay part of this game. All that despite the blatant issues like duping (here since 1998), cheating (here since 1997) and macroing (here since 1997) and scripting (here since I believe 2001). People leave because they are upset, channel that towards one of many broken aspects of the game but forget to mention that they were choosing this 'horrible' game over all those other addiction driven games despite all those issues. I am not saying that cheating is ok in games, nor am I saying that scripting is just the best thing since sliced bread. I am arguing that we have already embraced these issues in the past 15 years, found a way to live with it and enjoy the game despite or sometimes because of it, and have moved on. We should ask the devs to continue to feed our brains with the ingredients required to release endorphins enough to stay happy with the status quo. And we should hope that we can play this old, old game for another decade. To radically revamp this game into our utopia is just that: utopia. Realistically, this is not going to happen.

 

[LordDrago]

We should ask the devs to continue to feed our brains with the ingredients required to release endorphins enough to stay happy with the status quo. And we should hope that we can play this old, old game for another decade. To radically revamp this game into our utopia is just that: utopia. Realistically, this is not going to happen.

You know what would really amp up my endorphins? If, the next time I see one of the search sites bots, he suddenly bursts into flame and runs half a screen before becoming a black smudge on the street.

 

[Theo_GL]

You know what would really amp up my endorphins? If, the next time I see one of the search sites bots, he suddenly bursts into flame and runs half a screen before becoming a black smudge on the street.

View attachment 8974

I actually don't mind the search bots because I love those sites that save me boatloads of time. I don't really want to spend hours searching vendors for something on the 4 or 5 diff shards I play - I just want to find it at the best price and buy it.

Once again though - if EA would just take a page out of their book and create shard-wide vendor search - these sites and their scripting would disappear because EA would have real time info - something none of the scripted vendor search sites could compete with. There are free shards with shard-wide vendors search - how hard could it be to code if people not getting paid to do this are able to do it?

 

[Thav12]

I actually don't mind the search bots because I love those sites that save me boatloads of time. I don't really want to spend hours searching vendors for something on the 4 or 5 diff shards I play - I just want to find it at the best price and buy it.

Once again though - if EA would just take a page out of their book and create shard-wide vendor search - these sites and their scripting would disappear because EA would have real time info - something none of the scripted vendor search sites could compete with. There are free shards with shard-wide vendors search - how hard could it be to code if people not getting paid to do this are able to do it?

You guys both proof my point. If A then no B, without B we need C. But we won't get C, so we have A. Or the other way around: I don't mind B because we don't have C, so therefore I support A. Perfect circle. And this only one of the many examples of things that need to be fixed to break that circle. Search bots are one, so many other issues, grinds, redundancies and crooked mechanics.....

 

[Sevin0oo0]

To radically revamp this game into our utopia is just that: utopia. Realistically, this is not going to happen.

I agreed with everything you said, almost down to there... It has already happened more than once, AOS was pretty radical, House customization, Armor resistances, new classes and races, New Loot System, none of which brought the game to an end. Most don't seem to be advocating UO2, but I also don't see a push for more 30K HP mobs either. There's even a whole separate thread, just on the grind aspect, most felt it an undesirable aspect, but cheaters still need to be dealt with. The developers, the producers, and other players aren't just ignore it, nor should they

 

[Woodsman]

It is a circular argument. All of it is important. However, to fix any of it, you have to fix it all. That would be almost a redesign of the game.

On the issue of the known scripters, they don't have to fix anything, just enforce the existing TOS. It would not require any coding whatsoever.

They could start banning the scripters that everybody knows about and have reported multiple times and they could do it starting tomorrow.

Start with the search engine bots. Even if the Luna bots are trials, it would be easy to trace those back to paid accounts that are necessary to obtain the gold. Trial accounts can't place houses, can't visit Felucca, can't do anything other than basic ore/wood, can't receive rewards from champ spawns (including scrolls), can't use commodity deeds or do community collections or do repeatable quests, acquire BODs, can't have vendors, among other restrictions. Those search engines have people behind them selling gold and resources.

The UO team in the past has busted some big operations that required a lot of research. Read the search engine and scripting websites - they have grown so lazy and/or arrogant, they make it easy to locate them in the game, especially the search engine sites. There wouldn't be a lot required to track down the links between the search engine bots and the accounts that are being used to provide the supplies sold through those sites.

Cal already said they know about them and were monitoring them at one point.

 

[Thav12]

Don't get me wrong woodsman and sevin, I would be all for that sweeping revamp.

 

[Woodsman]

I actually don't mind the search bots because I love those sites that save me boatloads of time. I don't really want to spend hours searching vendors for something on the 4 or 5 diff shards I play - I just want to find it at the best price and buy it.

The only problem is that those search bots exist to get traffic to the search sites, who then sell gold and resources that they have gained through scripting.

If you had a search engine that was 100% clean on the issue of selling scripted gold and resources, that's one thing. But nobody sets those sites up out of the goodness of their heart - all of them exist to sell gold and resources that were gained illegally.

Once again though - if EA would just take a page out of their book and create shard-wide vendor search - these sites and their scripting would disappear because EA would have real time info - something none of the scripted vendor search sites could compete with. There are free shards with shard-wide vendors search - how hard could it be to code if people not getting paid to do this are able to do it?

I agree with this - reduce the traffic to those sites, over time you would reduce the amount of resources being sold, and therefore scripted. You would still need to make some changes in the long run to discourage scripters on the server side and you would need to deal with those who are using scripts to help them in combat and other areas, but right now the outlet for much of the gold and resources is through those search engine sites.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

We don't know results, what happens behind the scenes, What if they have checked the search bots, multiple times on various shifts, and found on each occasion them attended? over a week, What then? follow them all day long, all night? After so many times, they're not gonna keep checking. I've seen Nothing to prove these search sites acquire items in a non-legitimate manner, as speculated/rumored/guessed. I do find they give stability to the market. I occasionally readjust my prices, but they have remained stable for the most part, and I like that.

 

[Driven Insane]

UO is simply too time consuming, particularly given the inflation that has taken place over the last decade and a half. The righteous say: it is because of scripting, thus fix that and all will return to the way it was. The practical folks say: let's condone some degree of scripting, find a balance, to maintain a reasonable player base to keep this game running for as long as possible.

Could it be that both are right?

No.

For over a decade we've hear this tired, lame ass excuse over and over again "It's the game's fault that I have to cheat. If everything was easier I wouldn't have to script".

Pure BS from lazy fools who want everything handed to them right now. Or from RL losers who can't make a decent living in a legitimate career, so instead they squirm by selling online gaming crap to other lazy idiots.

I will never fall for this failed logic that it's the game's fault for why someone feels the need to cheat. I have over 20 fully scrolled, fully developed chars. Large houses full of artis, resources and piles of million dollar checks and never once have I scripted or cheated in any form. I play the game as it's intended. There's to many people both in game and in the real world who think they're entitled to everything right here and right now without investing any time or energy into achieving set goals.

Just because you don't want to do something or you think something will take to much time, doesn't give you an excuse to cheat.

 

[Petra Fyde]

On a related note - how many times has everyone put the chat spammer on ignore? Question rhetorical, I don't expect an actual answer, just something to think about. Each time I've done it they've been back after a very small time span. I suspect the same applies to GMs with scripters.

My simplistic solution: Disconnect the suspected scripter from game - legit players disconnected will simply reconnect. Afk scripters will not, and will therefore lose the day's production or data gathering.
Lose it often enough and it will no longer be viable to do it.
Alternative for resources: make it possible to get high level ingots through the bribery system - only someone who's involved in a bribery chain would be able to bribe the npc to sell him the ingots he needs to complete the bod he's got.
Maybe there could be a way to bribe carpenters to sell coloured boards - that idea needs a bit of developing to hopefully be non-scriptable.

 

[kRUXCg7]

My simplistic solution: Disconnect the suspected scripter from game - legit players disconnected will simply reconnect. Afk scripters will not,

I disagree with most of your ideas even though I know from other people that you are indeed a very valueable person in UO and the whole community around UO. A plethora of different opinions might be even more helpful in the end than it could seem at a time, though.

Anyway, your simplistic solution would be hazardous. I don't, I really don't want to get automatically disconnected. Even outside a fight it would be so annoying. But imagine being kicked from game during a fight! Enter 20ish character-password, choose shard, character... ANNOYING. Please, Petra Fyde, don't do that to me. What's next, killing the client? Then it's again... start UOAssist, accept elevated privileges (why??), wait for the patcher to load, wait for UO patcher to load, wait for client to load, enter 20ish character password, choose shard, choose character... Sounds like the work for a robot, not for a human being wanting to play a game! Aside from that, rest assured: Scripters can log in again. Automatically. So only we legitimate users will get punished. Scripters... Can restart a client if need be. Can bypass UOAssist & UO patcher. Can choose the shard. Can choose the character. Can rinse & repeat without end...

 

[Petra Fyde]

I disagree with most of your ideas even though I know from other people that you are indeed a very valueable person in UO and the whole community around UO. A plethora of different opinions might be even more helpful in the end than it could seem at a time, though.

Anyway, your simplistic solution would be hazardous. I don't, I really don't want to get automatically disconnected. Even outside a fight it would be so annoying. But imagine being kicked from game during a fight! Enter 20ish character-password, choose shard, character... ANNOYING. Please, Petra Fyde, don't do that to me. What's next, killing the client? Then it's again... start UOAssist, accept elevated privileges (why??), wait for the patcher to load, wait for UO patcher to load, wait for client to load, enter 20ish character password, choose shard, choose character... Sounds like the work for a robot, not for a human being wanting to play a game! Aside from that, rest assured: Scripters can log in again. Automatically. So only we legitimate users will get punished. Scripters... Can restart a client if need be. Can bypass UOAssist & UO patcher. Can choose the shard. Can choose the character. Can rinse & repeat without end...

ah. I accept your correction and bow to your greater knowledge of what scripts are capable of doing - though you would hardly be in danger of being considered a possible resource scripter if you were in the middle of a fight
I'll avoid trying to suggest solutions and leave it to those with some programming knowledge. I have a compulsion to try to help. Sometimes I don't realise that I don't have sufficient knowledge to actually be helpful

 

[kRUXCg7]

I'll avoid trying to suggest solutions and leave it to those with some programming knowledge.

I did not want to make you give up, I am sorry for sounding harsh. My apology is this: I am not a native speaker - and my people is known for being impolite, I am no different, while never aiming to sound impolite.

What I learned from a few posts of yours:
Your passion was clearly visible! IMHO the passion distincts the abstract, robotic script-abusers from real players. For me personally passion should be about everything in game. Neither the robots are passionate, though, nor do certain mundane tasks increase our passion. I have learned, though - from this very thread - that people's opinions on what is mundane differ from each other greatly.

I would greatly accept the extinction of scripting in game. But I think it would need a thousand steps and several years. It's about viability, human resources, willingness - and passion. Passion should direly include improvements on the game, too. And of course the almighty developers should reach out their hands to "half"-legitimate script users, too, to come back to a more 'normal' gameplay, without unapproved third party additions. We don't want to lose our friends and we don't want to lose thousands and thousands of players now, do we. And now let me exaggerate a little: If it is an error to use unapproved software, then we shall not forget that human beings often do mistakes, are erroneous, commit sins.

As brothers and sisters we should help them atone for their sins, expiate and help them lead a virtuos life again.

• Full of Honesty, as they would do honest work in future and not brag about a robot's achievements.
• Humility, as they give up on riches and fame that only robots can yield them and not their own hands' labour.
• Honor, as there is no honor in not doing things yourself, no honor in such accomplishments.
• Justice, as there certainly are not only script users, but also 'legitimate' players, who feel to be at a disadvantage.
• Compassion, as you have to see that players actions have been devalued.
• Valor, as you fight your own fights now.
• Spirituality - as the other players are real and not robots and doing them wrong is different from just interacting with software.
• And, as it might seem like a loss to script users if they can't continue: Sacrifice.

Please do not feel silenced, Petra Fyde, your contributions should weigh higher than the accomplishments of script users.

 

[Thav12]

No.

For over a decade we've hear this tired, lame ass excuse over and over again "It's the game's fault that I have to cheat. If everything was easier I wouldn't have to script".

Pure BS from lazy fools who want everything handed to them right now. Or from RL losers who can't make a decent living in a legitimate career, so instead they squirm by selling online gaming crap to other lazy idiots.

I will never fall for this failed logic that it's the game's fault for why someone feels the need to cheat. I have over 20 fully scrolled, fully developed chars. Large houses full of artis, resources and piles of million dollar checks and never once have I scripted or cheated in any form. I play the game as it's intended. There's to many people both in game and in the real world who think they're entitled to everything right here and right now without investing any time or energy into achieving set goals.

Just because you don't want to do something or you think something will take to much time, doesn't give you an excuse to cheat.

In your first sentence you embody what I have been saying. Nowhere would I argue that he easy button is forced upon me. Your logic is flawed in that it is a righteous and idealistic truth (see my posts earlier where I acknowledge that I agree with you in principle), but flies against 14.5 years of UO experience. You can stand on your head and scream murder, that won't change those facts.


What I take offense to is the righteous hyperbole and inference that is made about your fellow players morals or ethical behavior. I have argued this before, but you, my friend, have no idea about who is behind the keyboard of another players computer, you don't know them at all. This has been a very civil conversation with various well regarded members of your community. I rather play with them than with people who insult others, rule book in hand, and make those kind of statements. I can only wonder what drove you to be this insane, but then I realize that your name here on the forum probably has some deep roots... I won't go there, as a post a while back was erased by a mod for attacking another player when arguing the exact same thing, but I could make some real life inferences about your contributions to the real world as well if you have time to do all you did in UO. I am a valuable and valued coinhabitant of your UO universe. Don't insult me or your fellow players that disagree with you.

One last question: how many characters of yours have those mace and shield, or one of those other turn-in goggles? If it is more than one, I applaud you for your righteous persistence.... Or call BS on your statement that you have never cheated. You may not have turned on a script, but you were as much a victim as a culprit when you bought those for 8 mil in Luna....

 

[Meatbread]

I don't buy the notion that the developers are holding back for fear that banning all the scripters would cost UO too many people. It's not like they have to perma-ban everyone. I think the problem is that their detection methods are shoddy-to-nonexistent.

I mean look, if they had a genuine, reliable, efficient way to detect scripters, and not just an imaginary spreadsheet? All they would have to do is give scripters a five-minute boot from the game whenever a script cropped up. That would discourage mister Joe Average Scripter who's just trying to gain Bushido or something, without banning him.

If anything, I think they're afraid that if everyone has to play this game legit they'll just quit. That if everyone has to go "Think I'll make a mage! Now to enjoy six months of fireballing ettins before I'm useful!" or whatever, they just won't bother.

I think skillgain just needs to be lots, lots faster in general. Gear is the real means of character progression anyway.