Itemization and propertization.

[lupushor]

I had a shock today.

Please look at the pictures. One is from today, one from early 2001.

My question is : Is this what we really want from this game?

If in 10 years we have come from one line of text to 20 times more, where will we go from here? I mean this is a bloody crafted wooden shield, not some top-end artifact. In the future, shields may have skills, a secret pocket holding potions, they may feed us all day long and do the laundry. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen some medieval movies in my life, and no shield had mana regeneration on it ...

 

[Petra Fyde]

your poll is maybe a bit biased?
on the whole I think the answer is 'probably not', but the folk who made AoS decided we did and I don't think there's realistically any way back.

I just do the best I can, don't worry too much about the exact figures and provided my char doesn't die too easily, I'm happy.

 

[lupushor]

Biased?

I have spent the last two full days trying to build a competitive suit to make up for my bad connection. I have spent 50mil+ (only on runics), burned hundreds of runic charges and still have not found the final two pieces I need to complete my suit. Because I want 5 more INT on it. I haven't been out hunting with my friends cos I feel my character is not ready. So I stayed in my Felluca Den and sewn and salvage, sewn and salvage for hours to find the perfect pieces for reforging. Then I got whatever properties on them exept for the ones I was looking for. I have played for two days and I'm more upset on the game than I was two days ago.

And my point was not AoS. Not even Imbuing. Not even Reforging. But when is this property madness going to stop?

Am I so wrong for missing the days where you would craft a suit in under 5 mins, put it on and run to meet your friends in Destard?

Here is what this game has made of me :

 

[Luvmylace]

I had a shock today.

Please look at the pictures. One is from today, one from early 2001.

My question is : Is this what we really want from this game?

If in 10 years we have come from one line of text to 20 times more, where will we go from here? I mean this is a bloody crafted wooden shield, not some top-end artifact. In the future, shields may have skills, a secret pocket holding potions, they may feed us all day long and do the laundry. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen some medieval movies in my life, and no shield had mana regeneration on it ...

View attachment 8502 View attachment 8503

I really think that the bigger picture here is the time and effort to go forword and enrich UO;something we all have been crying for . Had this been started years ago ,instead of thinking..." well it will die in a year", or ..."it's too old a game to invest $$$$ in" ,the game would probably have retained a lot more Veterans .I love whatever they accomplish!

 

[Krinkle]

I look at it as more of an art form than simply 'suit math'.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Not wrong, no. I miss them too. But you don't really have to go to that amount of trouble to make a viable suit. - although maybe my opinion doesn't really count, I only play pvm.

 

[Lady CaT]

I like the old descriptions much better. All the statistics spelled out for the power gamer is just plain silly. Its like having a sentient weapon or armor who won't shut up!...lol

Magical sword says, "Wait DON'T LEAVE ME! I can kill dragons really well, and I'm very light, and I give you mana for your spells...heck I'll cast the spells for you...and I can paralyze a monster for you and I can help heal you, and I can deflect you opponent's blows, and I can cause them to bleed more and I can make you cast spells faster and I can resist any fire attacks against you and wait...no no... I can also deflect cold blows...or was that poison?....I'm also a torch!...I can fillet a fish!....I cook on Sundays!...I'm never dull...I sharpen myself!.... and can do laundry once a week....and I mix potions in my spare time...and..and..and...PLEASE COME BACK" *sentient voice of sword fades in distance as its left behind*

I don't think it "cripples player-to-player interaction and general community sentiment", but it may certainly looks intimidating to a new player who doesn't know better as they try to understand the game. And I have seen new players in game get frustrated over all the statistical information. But I think that says more about the player than the game itself.

 

[EricVT]

The Pre-AOS style was fantastic in its simplicity and put the emphasis on teamwork. Put on a suit of GM armor and grab a GM weapon and go bash some stuff with your friends. Nowadays people have spreadsheets so they can figure out the suit specs they need to get the right stats and skills and effects so they can solo peerless monsters and champs.

Whatever. It's a totally different game than it once was and there is hardly anything to compare anymore. There have been many improvements, but for me the real magic of the game has long been lost.

 

[Llewen]

You're poll is biased, and poorly worded, however, I took the option that makes me look bad, because it's the closest to how I feel. I love building suits. I love crafting. I love hunting for that special piece, or shopping for it. I think the game is far more interesting than it was back in the "good old days", in part due to how interesting the process of building a competitive suit is.

luphushor I think you're just frustrated because you are having a hard time crafting the exact piece you are looking for. Maybe what you need to do is take the best crafted piece you have made, and then make your imbued pieces work around it. And remember that you can use low level runics to create pieces with that one property you need to max out the cap on an imbued piece, or whatever.

 

[virtualhabitat]

I don't have imbuing. I'd rather go to people who like the math and the spreadsheets. I don't really understand the rest of your post. If you don't like doing something then stop doing it. If you are looking for that perfect suit, pay someone else who actually likes doing it. Based on your comments you don't seem to be lacking funds.


Incidentally, the shield with a secret potion pocket, I love it!

 

[Minerva Foxglove]

I like to make "good enough" suits for my chars. I dont pvp so I dont need the absolutely best. I played 12 + years non stop thanks to the game changing all the time. Not always the way I wanted, but if it still had been "the good old days " I had quit due to boredom long ago. Making new armour now and then is interesting. One of many interesting things to do. If I didnt like it I should ask a friend to help, but its more fun to manage on my own. So with just thoose options I have to vote for "its great"

 

[Cogniac]

Am I to believe that there is a poll attached to this thread? Because I don't see one.

 

[lupushor]

Am I to believe that there is a poll attached to this thread? Because I don't see one.

There was. I asked Petra to remove it, it was not well-thought-out. Sorry.

Just enjoy the pictures, lol. Though my eyes really hurt when I look at the shield pic. My head gets fuzzy from all those letters and numbers. It's a shield carved from a tree log, but it comes with a novel.

 

[Woodsman]

People who defend the itemization of UO point out that UO peaked after AOS, and there is some truth to that, but I don't think it peaked because of AOS or itemization, rather in spite of them. MMORPGs were really starting to get peoples attention around that time and people were getting better computers and better internet providers.

When UO moved from being about skills and experience to being about items, a lot of people started leaving. They were offset by people who were interested in MMORPGs, enough that EA didn't care.

I would like to hear the real rationale behind the itemization, from the actual developers, and who exactly was pushing itemization. Not too many developers or producers are going to admit to really screwing up a game, especially if they can claim that subs went up on their watch.

 

[Uvtha]

I think that the way items are presented now is really not the ideal way, but the notion that the game would be better with only like 5 item properties like before is just unrealistic. Games, ESPECIALLY online games have to grow and change or they die.

It was nice in old UO that you didnt have to do much to get out and go, but the gaming world has changed and if you look at it now the old UO really didn't have a whole lot of stuff to do, or goals to reach.

Also the notion that you must have a "perfect" suit to play the game, or that you need a spreadsheet to build a suit is also silly. Unless you are strictly a pvper, and even then I think you could pvp pretty well with a non perfect suit. For pvm you don't need a very good suit at all to hunt pretty much everything in game solo depending on your template and patience.

I personally find it very simple to be ready for pvm, and I play on a shard where you actually lose your stuff and have to replace it.

 

[Uvtha]

I would like to hear the real rationale behind the itemization, from the actual developers, and who exactly was pushing itemization. Not too many developers or producers are going to admit to really screwing up a game, especially if they can claim that subs went up on their watch.

I would imagine it was because of pressure from EQ and the other various MMO's which had a much more complex game world, sucking up the majority of the MMO market UO helped to foster.

I don't think it was a bad idea to take the road of more complexity, on the other hand the implementation was god awful, and only became reasonable in recent years IMO.

 

[Meatbread]

Item info certainly needs to be presented better. Do we need to see the weight, str requirement, expansion requirement, base damage, base speed, etc. on every single item? Crap like that is just bloat, and you should have to click the item to see it. Unless you don't meet the requirements, then have it pop out.

 

[Woodsman]

I would imagine it was because of pressure from EQ and the other various MMO's which had a much more complex game world, sucking up the majority of the MMO market UO helped to foster.

I don't think it was a bad idea to take the road of more complexity, on the other hand the implementation was god awful, and only became reasonable in recent years IMO.

Did people look at UO and say there wasn't enough item properties or did they look at EQ, Camelot, etc. and say that UO should look prettier and forward-thinking and have a larger game world?

 

[Anon McDougle]

Crafting is dumb !! if magery was like crafting it would look like this... Ok there is an Greater Dragon i will cast a EV or two then invis CASTING sounds create food create food curse %&%^&*& what the those arent the spells i cast at all let me try again CASTING sounds dispel dispel create food....... what would mages do if this was the case or if swordsman swung at a mob and cut off thier own leg ??? this is what crafting in UO is like. I would be ok with failing when i try to make something but i want to be able to make what i want not just random stuff !!

 

[Uvtha]

Did people look at UO and say there wasn't enough item properties or did they look at EQ, Camelot, etc. and say that UO should look prettier and forward-thinking and have a larger game world?

People did ask for more complex items and systems as well as better graphics. There may not have been a giant clamor, but it was asked for. I was one of them in fact. I however was not asking for a diablo clone set up, but for something original that made more sense in UO. I personally prefer the non numerical properties, I just wanted more of them.

Honestly I think it would be a good change for this game if items were spawned with the stats they have now, but with the numbers changed to words for the people who seem to stroke out when they see numbers. like 1-10% DI is ruin, 40-50% is vanquishing, etc. Would lessen the pressure to make perfect uber suits that people seem to feel they MUST have to "compete".

 

[Uvtha]

Crafting is dumb !! if magery was like crafting it would look like this... Ok there is an Greater Dragon i will cast a EV or two then invis CASTING sounds create food create food curse %&%^&*& what the those arent the spells i cast at all let me try again CASTING sounds dispel dispel create food....... what would mages do if this was the case or if swordsman swung at a mob and cut off thier own leg ??? this is what crafting in UO is like. I would be ok with failing when i try to make something but i want to be able to make what i want not just random stuff !!

Uhh... you do know that with imbuing you can make items with whatever stats you want, right? Only runic crafting is random, and reforging is random, but within a certain set of parameters.

 

[Anon McDougle]

Uhh... you do know that with imbuing you can make items with whatever stats you want, right? Only runic crafting is random, and reforging is random, but within a certain set of parameters.

Yes I understand that with Imbuing they started going the right way but why not Fix runics then and why take a step back and make reforging random ???? Understand i am ok with even 1% chance at making what i want but if i after invesing 120 Skill points in a skill want to make a sword with HCI and DMI i should be able to do just that !!

 

[lupushor]

Yes I understand that with Imbuing they started going the right way but why not Fix runics then and why take a step back and make reforging random ???? Understand i am ok with even 1% chance at making what i want but if i after invesing 120 Skill points in a skill want to make a sword with HCI and DMI i should be able to do just that !!

That is exactly the point of the turn they took with AoS and itemization. Now the game is no longer about skills, you can gain easily, heck, even "eat" skills so now everybody has 120 in every skill. Now it's just about the items, and they made sure they are property-heavy enough so you would chase that piece you need for hours or even days.

Again, I am forced to wonder where will this game end up?? I see in the future complicated mathematical formulas where if you use item A+Item B and the opponent has Item W but NOT Item Z then you can kick his arse and then all pvpers on general chat can laugh at him cos he's so poor and can't afford item Z.
Or if you used a certain suit, enhanced with 3 different types of materials and use a lucky boolean function on your jewels you could become at midnight invisible for all monsters and you could go steal from their lair other wonderful new items that will grant you a full crafting skill.

Skills=Character=Identity=Interaction

Items=Money=Items=Money

I do not believe they took the itemization turn on player demand or even on market analysis. I just think they went for increasing item properties cos it was the easiest thing to do. I can think of very few things easier to develop than adding a property from time to time to a certain class of items or changing the crafting process.
What would be really hard is to come up with sound story ideas to draw players into long quests or team-interaction from which they would gain special skill perks or special jobs and functions within the realm. Imagine a quest where for an entire month you would have to turn in certain items, fill bods, kill monsters, swim the sewers in search for old coins and whatever else until in the end you complete every task and you are awarded the seat of Prince of Yew for half a year, and you could touch a bit the design of the city, make events for people and interact with any traveller. Or anything else that would have to do with skills, fame, titles, events, architecture, plants and sorcery but would not rely solely on items.
I guess it would be nearly impossible since each dev that shows the tiniest creativity is thrown out the back door, starting with R.G. (L.B.).
Even the hard-working Mesanna is only doing the same stereotype events filling the world with "Mesanna" named items. My Dark Lady, when we will pass the 10k mark on Mesanna roulette items, can you promise to do something different please?
This game started as a magical world, with tons of mysteries awaiting at every corner. Now the only mystery is if I'll be getting intel bonus or mana increase on the next item.

 

[Uvtha]

Yes I understand that with Imbuing they started going the right way but why not Fix runics then and why take a step back and make reforging random ???? Understand i am ok with even 1% chance at making what i want but if i after invesing 120 Skill points in a skill want to make a sword with HCI and DMI i should be able to do just that !!

Why would they make runics like imbuing? That defeats the point of the skill. If you want to make a sword with HCI and DI, then you can use imbuing to do so. If you want a weapon that breaks the property rules you have to make an investment in luck.

 

[Uvtha]

That is exactly the point of the turn they took with AoS and itemization. Now the game is no longer about skills, you can gain easily, heck, even "eat" skills so now everybody has 120 in every skill. Now it's just about the items, and they made sure they are property-heavy enough so you would chase that piece you need for hours or even days.

Again, I am forced to wonder where will this game end up?? I see in the future complicated mathematical formulas where if you use item A+Item B and the opponent has Item W but NOT Item Z then you can kick his arse and then all pvpers on general chat can laugh at him cos he's so poor and can't afford item Z.
Or if you used a certain suit, enhanced with 3 different types of materials and use a lucky boolean function on your jewels you could become at midnight invisible for all monsters and you could go steal from their lair other wonderful new items that will grant you a full crafting skill.

Skills=Character=Identity=Interaction

Items=Money=Items=Money

I do not believe they took the itemization turn on player demand or even on market analysis. I just think they went for increasing item properties cos it was the easiest thing to do. I can think of very few things easier to develop than adding a property from time to time to a certain class of items or changing the crafting process.
What would be really hard is to come up with sound story ideas to draw players into long quests or team-interaction from which they would gain special skill perks or special jobs and functions within the realm. Imagine a quest where for an entire month you would have to turn in certain items, fill bods, kill monsters, swim the sewers in search for old coins and whatever else until in the end you complete every task and you are awarded the seat of Prince of Yew for half a year, and you could touch a bit the design of the city, make events for people and interact with any traveller. Or anything else that would have to do with skills, fame, titles, events, architecture, plants and sorcery but would not rely solely on items.
I guess it would be nearly impossible since each dev that shows the tiniest creativity is thrown out the back door, starting with R.G. (L.B.).
Even the hard-working Mesanna is only doing the same stereotype events filling the world with "Mesanna" named items. My Dark Lady, when we will pass the 10k mark on Mesanna roulette items, can you promise to do something different please?
This game started as a magical world, with tons of mysteries awaiting at every corner. Now the only mystery is if I'll be getting intel bonus or mana increase on the next item.

Well, first of all, I would say I probably feel the same way as you do about a desire for a world rather than a game, but I don't think itemization was the thing that killed the world aspect, trammel/insurance did the years before AOS. Siege had a great period post AOS that had one of the best feels of any period in time in UO.

I would also like to add that silly quests were never a part of UO in its heyday. What made UO awesome at its best was the people, and the freedom, and the real consequence. Freedom and consequence were removed, game lost its wonder. It lingered on Siege and even had a bit of a revival for a year or two, but then the population disappeared because people WANT a gamified world.

And on that matter I stringently disagree with you, that itemization isn't something that players want or wanted. Most MMO players are looking for a Diabol/WOW type game, that much is clear.

 

[Anon McDougle]

Why would they make runics like imbuing? That defeats the point of the skill. If you want to make a sword with HCI and DI, then you can use imbuing to do so. If you want a weapon that breaks the property rules you have to make an investment in luck.

Why ?? Why Why ?? with my 120 skill i should be able to make what i want not trust the RNG apply this to any other skill and it would be a riot !!!!!!!!

 

[Uvtha]

Why ?? Why Why ?? with my 120 skill i should be able to make what i want not trust the RNG apply this to any other skill and it would be a riot !!!!!!!!

Because thats the trade off. If you want to make an item exactly like you want it use imbuing. If you don't then use a runic.

The whole reason they needed to introduce items that broke the old barriers was BECAUSE imbuing allowed you to make any item you want, the way you wanted, which made "rare" items obsolete. Now there are rare items again, and to get them you have to put in extra effort to acquire runics (or haunt shame/wrong) and roll something valuable.

Its not that hard to understand why this change was introduced.

Also your 120 skill is to make regular items, not magic ones. That's where 120 imbuing comes into play.

 

[Anon McDougle]

Because thats the trade off. If you want to make an item exactly like you want it use imbuing. If you don't then use a runic.

The whole reason they needed to introduce items that broke the old barriers was BECAUSE imbuing allowed you to make any item you want, the way you wanted, which made "rare" items obsolete. Now there are rare items again, and to get them you have to put in extra effort to acquire runics (or haunt shame/wrong) and roll something valuable.

Its not that hard to understand why this change was introduced.

This is just a poor excuse for why crafting is messed up as i said apply this thinking to magery folks would go nuts !!! let us use are skill no matter how small of a sucess chance there is!!

 

[Uvtha]

This is just a poor excuse for why crafting is messed up as i said apply this thinking to magery folks would go nuts !!! let us use are skill no matter how small of a sucess chance there is!!

Get imbuing, and "are" conversation should then be over.

 

[Raptor85]

If a mmo were to come out with skill/item systems like old UO, complete with open world, I would gladly pay over $100 just to buy it, and quite gladly put down $20 a month, I haven't used UO as much more than an expensive IRC channel for some time now.

Funny though that you think that spreadsheet is complicated, it's on the simple side as far as post-aos suit building spreadsheets go, mine has over 12 pages of data in it to help determine costs based on current prices and mods, and even that pales in comparison to the spreadsheet of item pricing i had to build (the only alternative was randomly pricing items I put on my vendors). Not doing much more now that burning my back supply of gold on GTC's until I run out, then probably will IDOC my castle and just call it at that point, UO hasn't been fun for quite some time, these days it's just a crappy looking 2d WoW clone.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I had a shock today.

Please look at the pictures. One is from today, one from early 2001.

My question is : Is this what we really want from this game?

If in 10 years we have come from one line of text to 20 times more, where will we go from here? I mean this is a bloody crafted wooden shield, not some top-end artifact. In the future, shields may have skills, a secret pocket holding potions, they may feed us all day long and do the laundry. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen some medieval movies in my life, and no shield had mana regeneration on it ...

View attachment 8502 View attachment 8503

I remember it being kind of boring. You had 3 properties, basically or 4 and to make it easy we'll just say you had 1 because what you wanted was a vanq but the system was just as complicated as it is today, if not more.

Back then the system was just as bad because you could never get the vanq you wanted. I think what this goes into, is that idea where we are supposed to pretend and an MMO should be much more than a World that you just pretend to do things. Like, if there's food that you can't eat but people sit down and pretend to eat it. You can tell that was the type of mentality in one of the early designers who thought close enough was good enough because we could just pretend.

But computers are that door way to the world where you no longer just have to read the words. You get to experience all of the things that are programmed. I can't imagine what our world would be like if it was programmed with this idealism, that simple is better. It's almost like saying, you know everything there is to know and that's how it should be.

It's not the same as roleplay. It's more of a functionality to be able to do more than just think, to be able to learn and discover. It's not that it makes it more complicated or hard to learn, it's only that there is more to learn and more to do.

If you stop the growth you only dumb the game down and create something that would be stagnant. You have to understand that we are going to reach the thresh hold and if it's done properly and logically, it will make the game easier.

For example: The other day I posted a solution for mage armour. It would make mage armour more complicated than it is. It would of actually removed the mage armour property but would have added hidden bonuses to material, such as, dex and intel and regains and even though this sounds like it's making the game more complicated, it's not because it uses common sense to explain the system.

If a new player asked you, What is mage armour, that's where it becomes complicated because now you have to explain why a mage would want to wear a metal suit of armour rather than a cloth hat, cape and robe, while holding a staff.

You have to understand that The World of Ultima is a World not a stagnant game board with dice that are made of bone that should be in a museum.

Itemization only adds a parallel to the skill system and creates more of an adventure while seeking out items and building skill.

They could make the game easier by making it so you can buy items off of the NPCs and then from there upgrade to a Smith/Imbuer and then Dungeon Loot and Artifacts as a type of leveling mechanism.

In my opinion, no one should have the best gear. You should not be able to write a spreadsheet and then be as powerful as everybody else. Instead, the items should create a unique way of doing things for the individual as well as skill and since we are not there yet, the system still needs some building and without a structure that can actually get us there, you would probably be better off reading a book than playing Ultima Online.

 

[G.v.P]

Am I the only one who saw -1 FC and went, "Meh?" Haha. I'm still holding out for the Moiety.

There's no question Shame loot went too far. The most interesting thing about Shame loot, though, is EA released the content without a new expansion or booster. Yes, the content was an attempt at selling more High Seas...and I suppose there were a lack of PvP types interested in buying the expansion which the Shame loot changes hoped to address (there had to be a marketing angle). But still, it's rare for such an item system change without an additional out-of-game cost.

 

[Woodsman]

And on that matter I stringently disagree with you, that itemization isn't something that players want or wanted. Most MMO players are looking for a Diabol/WOW type game, that much is clear.

AOS came out a year and a half before World of Warcraft. And as buggy as it was, Ultima IX was not item-based to the extent you had to practically have a spreadsheet. Bugs and all, it still sold well. If people wanted to play Diablo, they could go play Diablo. If they wanted to play something that resembled the Ultima series where they didn't have to constantly swap out items, they could play UO up through AOS.

In some ways, I'm glad the standalone Ultima series stopped in 1999, because had they continued, I'm sure that they would have turned it into a Diablo clone.

It's hard to say what UO players wanted though, because we never had a choice. This isn't like Tram/Fel where players can choose how to play or even play both sides.

 

[Anon McDougle]

AOS came out a year and a half before World of Warcraft. And as buggy as it was, Ultima IX was not item-based to the extent you had to practically have a spreadsheet. Bugs and all, it still sold well. If people wanted to play Diablo, they could go play Diablo. If they wanted to play something that resembled the Ultima series where they didn't have to constantly swap out items, they could play UO up through AOS.

In some ways, I'm glad the standalone Ultima series stopped in 1999, because had they continued, I'm sure that they would have turned it into a Diablo clone.

It's hard to say what UO players wanted though, because we never had a choice. This isn't like Tram/Fel where players can choose how to play or even play both sides.

This in correct we have a choice we could just use plain GM no mods armor and weapons We would suck and die a lot but we could choose to do so !

 

[Raptor85]

This in correct we have a choice we could just use plain GM no mods armor and weapons We would suck and die a lot but we could choose to do so !

really? so because you can technically "do" that it's a valid choice to be able to play the game like that? nevermind the fact that the 0.1% of the content you'd ever be able to access, while paying full price for the game, is currently in the process of being patched out of the game under the guise of "updates"...

See that's whats known as a "False Choice", essentially you give someone a set of options...one of them being what YOU want, and the other being something so absurd that they have essentially no reason but to choose the other.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

I would like to hear the real rationale behind the itemization, from the actual developers, and who exactly was pushing itemization. Not too many developers or producers are going to admit to really screwing up a game, especially if they can claim that subs went up on their watch.

It was none other than the infamous "Ghostcrawler" who helped develop and pushed the Diabloesque itemization of the AoS expansion. "Ghostcrawler" is currently the lead dev of Blizzard's WoW...no wonder everything got ****ed up.

If a mmo were to come out with skill/item systems like old UO, complete with open world, I would gladly pay over $100 just to buy it, and quite gladly put down $20 a month, I haven't used UO as much more than an expensive IRC channel for some time now.

It has come out. It's called Darkfall Online. It's produced by an indy Greek developer called "Aventurine" and the devs of it were heavily influenced by oldshool UO, alot of them were Pre-Tram PKs. No Lvl/Class system, just Stats/Skills that you gain by using. You can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime, and when you die, EVERYTHING you have on you drops on your corpse (Except for the piece of crap "conscript" weapon) and can be freely looted by anyone. Clans vie for dominance and control over cities, and form alliances with other clans to potentially dominate a continent/sub-continent, actual clan politics. When two big Alliances clash against each other, with each side hiring Mercenary Clans, you can expect to see 500+ players in a single siege battle. It's a game that tends to polarize people though, you either love it, or you hate it. I started playing it back when the NA1 server launched, and it was a breath of fresh air to re experience the "Risk vs Reward" that UO used to have. I had nearly forgotten the thrill of killing someone and to see all their loot on their corpse, just to have to end up running away with only half his loot while his guildies chased me, trying to get my loot.

 

[Raptor85]

It was none other than the infamous "Ghostcrawler" who helped develop and pushed the Diabloesque itemization of the AoS expansion. "Ghostcrawler" is currently the lead dev of Blizzard's WoW...no wonder everything got ****ed up.



It has come out. It's called Darkfall Online. It's produced by an indy Greek developer called "Aventurine" and the devs of it were heavily influenced by oldshool UO, alot of them were Pre-Tram PKs. No Lvl/Class system, just Stats/Skills that you gain by using. You can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime, and when you die, EVERYTHING you have on you drops on your corpse (Except for the piece of crap "conscript" weapon) and can be freely looted by anyone. Clans vie for dominance and control over cities, and form alliances with other clans to potentially dominate a continent/sub-continent, actual clan politics.

Wait...really? I was led to believe darkfall had some limitations on pvp and looting which is why I avoided it...hmm...I may have to check that game out, ty (then again I avoided siege for years because of being told left and right by people on other shards that it was filled with "nothing but griefers" and "people do nothing but pvp there"....lol)

To add to your post also, while it's true AOS came out before WoW, development on AOS started AFTER the first shots/videos/info on WoW were already public...almost a year after actually, and as said the main developers on AOS were all huge diablo fans who bailed to blizzard to work on WoW almost right after AOS launch, including him. Essentially AOS was their resume to get hired by blizzard O_x

 

[Uvtha]

AOS came out a year and a half before World of Warcraft. And as buggy as it was, Ultima IX was not item-based to the extent you had to practically have a spreadsheet. Bugs and all, it still sold well. If people wanted to play Diablo, they could go play Diablo. If they wanted to play something that resembled the Ultima series where they didn't have to constantly swap out items, they could play UO up through AOS.

I'm aware that WOW was not yet out when AOS began. However Everquest which had much more complex systems was. I was saying that what players of today want is wow and wow type games not that thats what they wanted in the AOS era. They wanted Everquest type games then.

In some ways, I'm glad the standalone Ultima series stopped in 1999, because had they continued, I'm sure that they would have turned it into a Diablo clone.

I doubt it. Its a different thing altogether. Though I'm glad it ended as well cause 9 blew ass. :{

It's hard to say what UO players wanted though, because we never had a choice. This isn't like Tram/Fel where players can choose how to play or even play both sides.

Well they did have a choice. Everquest, then later WOW, which is where they went.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I had a shock today.

Please look at the pictures. One is from today, one from early 2001.

My question is : Is this what we really want from this game?

If in 10 years we have come from one line of text to 20 times more, where will we go from here? I mean this is a bloody crafted wooden shield, not some top-end artifact. In the future, shields may have skills, a secret pocket holding potions, they may feed us all day long and do the laundry. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have seen some medieval movies in my life, and no shield had mana regeneration on it ...

View attachment 8502 View attachment 8503

I really don't understand these arguements. First of all, you have to have items or it's all going to be text, 2nd, if you count the properties on any loot, you see about 5, nothing has changed. The only difference is now, you can see the property as a number rather than a name where you have to go look up the name so you can figure out the number.

The Devs could just get rid of all the text lines except for the ones that we need. Hide the other ones and make it so you have to use Arms Lore so you can see them. Why would I care about the weight? If my character can't hold the item, there could be a message that says, You are not strong enough to hold the item.

On most items you end up with 4 lines up to 6, on average.

Basically, when you have a surprisingly accurate Power, Silver, you have 4 properties right there.

BUt we have to ask ourselves, " Where are we going? that is the question. If you could look 20 years into the future, maybe the item would just have a name and you would be directed to a library, where the Librian would search for a book of the item and the item would show a history of how it got its' name, where it received its' magic properties from, as it might of fallen down a well and gained luck properties and was held by a great warrior who slayed a dragon, where it received a powerful dragon slaying property, where it was locked in a tomb and absorbed the sole that turns undead. Possibly alot of the information about the item would be unknown.

But to get to this point, in the future, you would need a mechanical way to actually have the item act as you claim it to be or they would just be words or story.

As far as I know, the game was created with properties on the items, such as, Night Sight, Fireball, Durability, Weight. So, obviously this idea has been conceived from the beginning and will continue to change and grow until it reaches it's desired peak, which is, a reflection of reality but it is interesting to wonder what reality is as we stand on the thresh hold.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Wait...really? I was led to believe darkfall had some limitations on pvp and looting which is why I avoided it...hmm...I may have to check that game out, ty (then again I avoided siege for years because of being told left and right by people on other shards that it was filled with "nothing but griefers" and "people do nothing but pvp there"....lol)

Nope, no limitations on PKing or looting, besides the fact that they give complete newb accounts "Newbie Protection" for awhile, which let's you at least get the hang of how the game works and it's mechanics, before you get your teeth kicked in. Most games greet you with handholding, Darkfall greets you by kicking you in the balls, like oldschool UO did. It has a steep learning curve. Most modern day MMORPG players who started with games like EQ or WoW, can't stand how hardcore it is. For us oldschool, Pre-Tram players, it's a refreshment course in getting your ass kicked while you learn the game, and learning how to adapt. If you got a "thick skin" and don't let dying alot get to you in the beginning, then Darkfall is for you. Once you get in a helpful clan who helps you train and hunt and such, then you really start to have fun. Group PvP can really be a blast.
The way i see it, PKing in Darkfall is just business, really. Someone has something on them that you want, you kill them. You have something they want, they'll try to kill you. Try to avoid going after guilded people during your "newbie" period though if you're not in a Clan, otherwise if you PK the wrong person, their entire clan will come after you, and put you on a "KOS" list. The game does have a number of asshats and trolls both in game and on forums, partly due to the highly competetive nature of the game, but if you just ignore them and don't let them get to you, you'll be fine.

 

[Aurelius]

I'd be perfectly happy with a switch in the client to display either the 'old style' naming system or the 'full' numbers and effects list. For better or worse, the access to all the data needed for suit building now is essential if you want to get the best from the stuff out there, but in presentation style it's more like a shopping list stuck on every item....

 

[Jhym]

I would imagine it was because of pressure from EQ and the other various MMO's which had a much more complex game world, sucking up the majority of the MMO market UO helped to foster.

I don't think it was a bad idea to take the road of more complexity, on the other hand the implementation was god awful, and only became reasonable in recent years IMO.

It was largely (as I remember) because people screamed that everything was too hard to keep track of and that we had NO idea how powerful something really was. A vanquishing sword could be really good, or not, but there was no obvious reason in the properties (sometimes it was the durability, and whether it was smithed.)

So, they more or less said "fine, crybabies, we'll explain EVERYTHING to you because you can't do any thinking yourselves."

This is the sort of systems you can get when people complain continually about things that weren't that bad. Now you have to think a lot more, which is incredibly amusing to me in retrospect.

 

[Raptor85]

there weren't 100 levels of "damage bonus" on the old names, vanquishing was vanquishing, it was the strongest and that's all you needed to know, the different "levels" of properties did not exist until aos and thus a numeric property sheet was unnecessary. If you think AOS just "spelled out" what already existed you could not possibly have played before then...for instance armor, even ignoring the name if you used arms lore or just put it on you had ONE number, the AR, 5 was better than 4 which is better than 3....and so on, and the progression of armor was obvious, there was no 15 phys, 10 fire, 6 cold, 8 poison, 10 energy, 6% lower mana cost, 17% lower reagent cost,, mana regen 2, 5% poison eater, 40 luck, that you had to decide between that and the 12 phys, 13 fire, 8 cold, 6 poison, 10 energy, 4% lower mana cost, 18% lower reagent cost,, mana regen 5, 12% endergy eater tunics to figure out, generally via spreadsheet, which would work better for your suit. It was....hmm, leather tunic, ar3.....hey...that's slightly better than cloth shirt..ar1....hmmm...but not quite as good as spined tunic at ar4

there was a whopping what. 5 levels of power weapons could be at, and the durability mods and charged magic items, it was ALREADY spelled out what everything did, nobody was complaining that they couldn't figure out what was better, a mighty hally or a vanq one.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Pre-AoS Weapons had up to 5 "Sub Groups" of enchantments they could have. One dealt with Durability, another dealt with Accuracy, another dealt with Damage, another dealt with Slayer and another dealt with Hit Spell effects with a limited number of charges.
Durability - Durable < Substantial < Massive < Fortified < Indestructable
Accuracy - Accurate < Surpassingly Accurate > Eminently Accurate < Exceedingly Accurate < Supremely Accurate
Damage - Ruin < Might < Force < Power < Vanquishing
Slayer - Silver (Undead Slaying, was the only Slayer type that stacked with other properties, like a Silver/Vanq). Slayers such as Repond (Which worked on players back then), Dismissal (Elemental Slaying), Exorcism (Demon Slaying), Lizardman Slaughter (Lizardman Slayer), etc would be the only property on the weapon.
Hit Spell - Daemon's Breath (Magic Arrow), Wounding (Harm), Dragon's Breath (Fireball), Thunder (Lightning), Frailty (Weakness), Clumsiness (Clumsy), Feeblemindedness (Feeblemind), Evil (Curse), Mage's Bane (Mana Drain) and Ghoul's Touch (Paralyze)
Oldschool weapons would read like this: "An Indestructable, Supremely Accurate, Silver Katana of Vanquishing and Ghoul's Touch: 30"

Pre-AoS Armor had 3 "Sub Groups" of enchantments that they could have. One dealt with Durability, another dealt with Defense, and another dealt with "constant" Spell Effects with a limited number of charges.

Armor
Durability - Durable < Substantial < Massive < Fortified < Indestructable
Defense - Defense < Guarding < Hardening < Fortification < Invulnerability
Spell Effect - Night Sight, Magic Reflection, Weaken, Clumsy, Feeblemind, Strength, Agility, Cunning, Bless.
Oldschool armor would read like this "An Indestructable Platemail Tunic of Invulnerability and Blessings: 90"

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Pre-AoS Weapons had up to 5 "Sub Groups" of enchantments they could have. One dealt with Durability, another dealt with Accuracy, another dealt with Damage, another dealt with Slayer and another dealt with Hit Spell effects with a limited number of charges.
Durability - Durable < Substantial < Massive < Fortified < Indestructable
Accuracy - Accurate < Surpassingly Accurate > Eminently Accurate < Exceedingly Accurate < Supremely Accurate
Damage - Ruin < Might < Force < Power < Vanquishing
Slayer - Silver (Undead Slaying, was the only Slayer type that stacked with other properties, like a Silver/Vanq). Slayers such as Repond (Which worked on players back then), Dismissal (Elemental Slaying), Exorcism (Demon Slaying), Lizardman Slaughter (Lizardman Slayer), etc would be the only property on the weapon.
Hit Spell - Daemon's Breath (Magic Arrow), Wounding (Harm), Dragon's Breath (Fireball), Thunder (Lightning), Frailty (Weakness), Clumsiness (Clumsy), Feeblemindedness (Feeblemind), Evil (Curse), Mage's Bane (Mana Drain) and Ghoul's Touch (Paralyze)
Oldschool weapons would read like this: "An Indestructable, Supremely Accurate, Silver Katana of Vanquishing and Ghoul's Touch: 30"

Pre-AoS Armor had 3 "Sub Groups" of enchantments that they could have. One dealt with Durability, another dealt with Defense, and another dealt with "constant" Spell Effects with a limited number of charges.

Armor
Durability - Durable < Substantial < Massive < Fortified < Indestructable
Defense - Defense < Guarding < Hardening < Fortification < Invulnerability
Spell Effect - Night Sight, Magic Reflection, Weaken, Clumsy, Feeblemind, Strength, Agility, Cunning, Bless.
Oldschool armor would read like this "An Indestructable Platemail Tunic of Invulnerability and Blessings: 90"

One day we had all these properties, then the next day they ran all of the armour and weapons through a program that automatically added the properties so you could see them and remove the names. For example: The accuracy became hit chance. You could see what the damage modifier was, I believe Vanq was 35 damage increase. Later we would discover that some item properties were removed, such as, Bless. These items became relics to us and I began to save them as rares.

But I think one of the main reasons for doing this was so that they could add more to it. You can see the way that they are written out above, is pretty much the range you could go. For example: Durability. Now, with numbers you could go from 0 to 40.4 billion and people would be able to see where it was on the range where you could not possibly do that with words.

I wondered the day after the change, while I watched the patch, I did not know what to expect but when looking at the numbers, upon log in, I wondered why they couldn't keep the names as well and just figured that the system that auto changed everything was just not able to do it or was it planned.

I think I remember them saying that there were 2 options, delete all the items or deal with what we had, which leads you to believe the ladder.

But this is where AoS gave people problems. It wasn't that it was complicated as far as understanding, it was that, everything that you got off of loot was horrible. So, from that time all the way up to now, with this new Shame Loot, you could never find anything good on loot.

I think the average suit would of had physical, fire and energy as its' main protection but the balance was horrible for most people. I would go out hunting with people who had 20 physical resis and you could always tell who these people were because you would start hearing them die repeatidly because you even had trouble making a viable suit, let alone supplying guild mates.

So, I think people struggled and I think the GMs still make it to difficult but if they finally tune it out where you could pick up an item that you can actually use, the game will become functional, like it was Pre AoS because everyone had basically the same armour but the change would be, that rather than everyone wearing the same thing, there would be a range of items, possibly, an endless range.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

But this is where AoS gave people problems. It wasn't that it was complicated as far as understanding, it was that, everything that you got off of loot was horrible. So, from that time all the way up to now, with this new Shame Loot, you could never find anything good on loot.

I think the average suit would of had physical, fire and energy as its' main protection but the balance was horrible for most people. I would go out hunting with people who had 20 physical resis and you could always tell who these people were because you would start hearing them die repeatidly because you even had trouble making a viable suit, let alone supplying guild mates.

So, I think people struggled and I think the GMs still make it to difficult but if they finally tune it out where you could pick up an item that you can actually use, the game will become functional, like it was Pre AoS because everyone had basically the same armour but the change would be, that rather than everyone wearing the same thing, there would be a range of items, possibly, an endless range.

Yeah, i remember after the patch. One of my guild mates did a crapton of Lvl 5 T-Maps after the AoS patch hit, and T-Chests actually had decent loot in them. He was running around in an almost all 70's Resist suit because of T-Chest loot, which was very impressive then. Then they went and nerfed T-Chest loot to the same crappy loot you'd pull off of monsters.

 

[Zyon Rockler]