[Discussion] Silent Auction for next fest

[lineman]

After last couple of fests and reading current comments in threads I would like your thoughts on this. Just a free for all silent auction, no start, no reserve, no buyout. If someone wants to submit a item they will be prepared to part with it. Lets face it, if the item is silent auction worthy the prices have no problem being driven up anyways. Everything else would remain the same, there still would be a end time with the ten minute rule ect. That doesnt mean I want low end items either, I will not except them. I still want it to be the same quality of rares. Also think about maybe letting the seller put a buyout on a item only. Just a thought. Also I will be willing to do a a rares fest auction if it falls on my weekend off work lol, I have used up to many vacation days in the past running auction houses.

Lets try and keep this constructive as well. Even if the majority agrees to this it will still fall on whomever is hosting the fest to give the green light on it.

 

[Thunderz]

TBH the silent auction doesnt work like it should as everyone just bids and bids on the board like a normal auction.

A real silent auction is people placing there highest offer in a way that no one else can see, like a book into a mail box with there details.

When the deadline hits the book from the person who offered the highest gets it [if the reserve is met] Thats a real silent auction.

A silent auction doesnt let other people see others bids, thats just a normal auction if you can..

Thunderz

 

[lineman]

TBH the silent auction doesnt work like it should as everyone just bids and bids on the board like a normal auction.

A real silent auction is people placing there highest offer in a way that no one else can see, like a book into a mail box with there details.

When the deadline hits the book from the person who offered the highest gets it [if the reserve is met] Thats a real silent auction.

A silent auction doesnt let other people see others bids, thats just a normal auction if you can..

Thunderz

It's as silent as I am willing to do lol, the big thing is people don't have fear of losing there items theft or scams. As far as what you are talking about I am not sure it would be well received from the seller.

 

[Thunderz]

A real silent auction the people wouldn't give any items to anyone, they would put a book down with the item description and people would put there name and details an offer in the book, when the time is up the person with the highest offer will win it if reserve is met.

it stops counter bidding to raise prices and seeing bids.

Thats how banks and companies work , you put you bid in if it wasn't the highest you don't get it

Thunderz

 

[yanaki2]

ok my 2 cents, first off 99% of all real life silent auctions have no reserve, the items are usually donated for a charity and people place there bids knowing what the others placed before them as there usually in ledgers,there for charity and people bid according, its not about the item its about raising money.now in real life i go to real auctions all the time and ive been a ebayer for more then 15 years.(im in the tv and film industry).

the problem is see with the silent auction over the last few fests is that people who put up the items for the most part put them at reserves near the market values or above and just basicly hope that people would bid higher, you can do that here on stratics, whats the point of any auction where you already know your going to pay market value at the minimum?
my suggestion as the auction house usually has 3 floors, make items subbited fall into a simple set of categories, for instance first floor items are no reserve it sells for the highest bid, second floor items start at lets say 100 mil open bid and no reserve, 3rd floor is for the high end items , the nice pieces let them start at lets say 150-200 mil and post there are reserves but do not post what the reserve amount is and let the seller decide if there going to sell it that way it encourages people to bid but they know full well they may still not win it, they will be encouraged to bid higher amounts in hope they can reach the reserve amount.
lastly if some shmuck wants to put in say a kettle for the 100 mil room, just say no i dont think we can do it
also please remove buyouts, its counterproductive with a auction in the first place.

 

[lupushor]

I do not think the system is the problem. Seems to me as fair as it can be (course, Lineman is 50% of the system by default).

The real problem here is related to the prices of rares. And this is very touchy and sensible. And I have absolutely no clue how this issue could be dealt with. I'm not even 100% sure it is an issue, maybe it's just the tough reality and that's that. (when i say 'prices of rares' i mean the traded value of the majority of rares ingame, on boards, on sales, at auctions).

Would I like to buy a Daemon Candle for 100mil? hell yeah. Me and the rest of you fine people. But if I were to own one and decide to sell it, would I try to get to the 1bil mark? Would you?

Usually I was in the team that hunted for low reserves at Fests and tried to get nice items for reasonable prices. Couldn't afford to bid for top-notch pieces through the roof. Last Fest I had to sell some of my items though and I will admit I was one of the sellers that set reserve prices a bit higher than the market value of the item. I had 8 items submitted for auction, for a total reserve price of 1,6bil. The result was that 5 items were sold for a total of 1,635bil (no joke). So I was not so outrageously wrong in my finance math. I am not at all accustomed with economic laws, but for me this outcome was dictated by the Rares Market as a whole entity. If I were to be wrong, the market would have penalized me by no sale on all counts. We may not like the Market at one point, but I also think we cannot control it. It's a monster that would just eat, sleep and breed on its own.

I have two key points I would like to discuss:

1. I believe there is a misplaced mass-hysteria about reserve prices. On both sides. I think the reserve price is a smart concept as long as none of the parties involved in the negociations abuses it. The concept is that the seller RESERVES the right not to sell if the bid is too low. The reserve price is not a definitive price tag like in a shop, and it is certainly not a starting price. It is more or less a hint of the seller's expectations for the product. Abuse towards the reserve price from the bidder is when the bidder makes a bid about 20%-30% of the reserve price. Abuse towards the reserve price is when the seller won't even discuss a price lower than the reserve he set. In my book, a bid of 90-95% of the reserve price should be a sure buy/sale. For example, one of my items from last Fest auction had a reserve price of 200mil. I ended up accepting the ONLY bid of 150mil it got, after negociating with the bidder after the auction. I do not find this situation faulty in any way. Both parties left satisfied, a win-win situation. And all the while I was secured I would not have to sell the item to a random 10mil bid while the big buyers were busy watching other items. I believe that when common sense is as common as its name recommends it, trading rares is a very pleasant experience. (I also had no start bids and no buyouts on my items, the 300mil start 350mil reserve 400mil buyout scheme annoys me aswell....see abusing terms above).

2. I do think we are confronting with an economic paradox these days. While uo money is pretty hard to come by lately (maybe due to decaying numbers of players) its actual value it's decreasing. So there is a product that is becoming more rare and yet it is also becoming cheaper. I will say again that I do not understand Economy, but i'm sure this fact is leading to a drastical cut down in trades, affecting the entire market. I have no solution and no predictions about this situation. Smarter people may know more.

 

[Apetul]

In my opinion, items with buyout helps the silent auction alot, because it makes it possible for a buyer to get the item right now (unless buyout price is very high) and that means more people can submit more items because some items that had buyout are going to be sold.

If the item does not have buyout price, then most people wont bid on it until the last 10 minutes. Most smart collectors dont want others to know on which items they are interested. As far as I remember the collector that won most auction items on lineman's silent auction house at Sakura was biding the reserve price on 75% of the items 10 minutes before the auction ends. Nothing bad at all about that, but thats how the last silent auctions fests has been working.. the REAL auction starts 10 minutes before end time. Rest of the time, is just a house to display rares.

We need to find a way to encourage people to bid on the items other than the last 10 minutes. I think that the seller should be able to change the reserve price and buyout price whenever he wants. (I know, thats a PITA for the auctioneer/house owner). If the seller can do that, then there is a chance for a buyer to talk with the seller, offer him a lower buyout price, a trade or whatever, and if the seller agree then the buyer will just bid for the lowered buyout price when the auctioneer/houseowner updates the boards with the new values. In my opinion, that will make other people to show interest on the items biding on them and everyone will see some movement on the auction houses, some items will be gone and new items will appear.

About the "no start, no reserve, no buyout" idea, as a Buyer i love it. There is a high chance that I will be able to get a cheap item from the auction while most big collectors are fighting for the most expensive items. (that's how I got the staff of necromancers on last silent auction for 51m because the seller did not have a buyout price and the reserve was very very low. Of course, I did bid that amount on the last 10 mins)
As a Seller, I dont like that idea because I know the people will only bid on the last 10 minutes and if in that time most collectors were busy biding on some 1:1 or messana items then my items will be sold for very very cheap.
Both parties should be happy after the auction, buyers and sellers and not just buyers.

 

[Llewen]

2. I do think we are confronting with an economic paradox these days. While uo money is pretty hard to come by lately (maybe due to decaying numbers of players) its actual value it's decreasing. So there is a product that is becoming more rare and yet it is also becoming cheaper. I will say again that I do not understand Economy, but i'm sure this fact is leading to a drastical cut down in trades, affecting the entire market. I have no solution and no predictions about this situation. Smarter people may know more.

I think there are a few reasons why gold is getting harder to come by. But the first reason is that The Great Magincia Swindle removed trillions from the game. Another reason is that people aren't farming gold anymore. Almost nobody goes out and just farms gold these days. And as a result more gold is leaving the game than entering it. It's leaving through vendor fees, and through people converting all their possessions to gold and taking a break from the game, and from the constant attrition of decay that happens with idocs, etc.

I'm not talking about the apocalypse here. Old players are returning to the game as well, but they don't have as much gold as those who have liquidated their assets and put their accounts on mothballs. And gold should be harder to come by than it has been in recent years, so I don't think this is bad news for the game. There is one piece of bad news for the game, and that is that I think the game lost a lot of active subscriptions when the old accounting system was migrated to the new Origin system. That was a fiasco, and I expect in the short term at any rate has seriously harmed UO's bottom line.

However, I think that it needed to be done, even without the new Origin content delivery system the accounting system was in serious need of an upgrade, and in the long term this will be good for the game, and UO's developers. The entire backend for UO needs to be updated, from the server code to the code base for even the classic client - if it is to remain a viable option.

Oh, and expect more lottery style swindles in the future. I can't imagine that the devs won't try a repeat of something that obviously worked so well. It may not involve housing, but I can pretty much guarantee that we will see more "lotteries" that will serve to remove excess gold from the game.

edit: Crap, I just realized this looks like I'm claiming to be smarter than my friend... I'm absolutely not, and that wasn't the point of this post...

 

[lineman]

A real silent auction the people wouldn't give any items to anyone, they would put a book down with the item description and people would put there name and details an offer in the book, when the time is up the person with the highest offer will win it if reserve is met.

it stops counter bidding to raise prices and seeing bids.

Thats how banks and companies work , you put you bid in if it wasn't the highest you don't get it

Thunderz

People want to see what there buying, if I was putting a bid on a house I would look at its foundation first

 

[LOTR]

In my opinion:

During a Silent Auction, buyers have to submit their bids in a book, so nobody knows what everyone is bidding. It is fair. Buyers will only submit a bid which they think is a fair price to them. And there should not be a buyout price. This will defeat the purpose of Silent Auction and create unfairness among other buyers. On the other side, seller can set a reserve price. This is to protect the seller, so the item will not be sold at a price deem unfair to the seller. All bids cannot be disclosed, but the name of the bidder should or the number of bidders should be shown.

Well, I may be one of the seller or buyer. That's my opinion.

 

[THP]

Why not have 2 auction house

1.the first for the people that wanna stick huge reserves on items that are pretty unrealistic and maybe just call this the ''buyout auction house''
2. the fun auction house ....call it the ''real auction house'' were people will take the risk of losing a little gold but having amazing fun getting loads and loads of bids and allowing great fun and interaction at the auction for everyone!!!!

 

[TandaBSK]

I appreciate this thread greatly, its good feedback and helpful information from those who spend money collecting rares as well as those selling or perhaps the middlemen auctioning or brokering such sales.

Majestic Oaks Auction, Great Lakes Shard is trying to bring the fest to our shard this spring in like 8.5 short weeks. As events coordinator I am trying to weigh all these topics, pricing strategies, reserves, silent vs. or combined with live auction. The UO economy is very fluid, and fickle it rises and falls with availability, perceived rarity, gold flow and bottom line what any willing buyer is prepared to spend at that moment in time on an item up for sale. Each collector in game seems to have his or her own niche, their favorite passion to horde into their treasures, so when 2 or more collectors of the same objects compete you get the greatest potential for higher sales prices.

Sellers want the absolute most gold they can get for the item they are parting with, buyers conversely at least most, want the best price they can get for said item. As Gold is NOT an infinite supply (in theory) some place between the 2 lies the reality of what can be achieved. Auction house/auctioneers survive because they try to garner the most money for their sellers, that's the bottom line. Minimum bids, reserve prices are all designed to try to protect the seller from losing his/her shirt selling an item. Auctions are inherently risky, you acquire an item either from purchasing, finding or looting it and you put it up for sale with the intent of making a profit or at the very least breaking even. Some sellers are willing to gamble and risk losing their initial investment of gold or time.. some are not.

At our auction house, we get questions frequently of where do I set my minimum bid at (we do not use a reserved pricing system). Best council I can give a seller is to set their minimum where they would be happy if that is the ONLY bid we get, IF your not prepared for the very real possibility that the crowd may not generate enough bids for you to break even or make a profit. If they'd rather hold them item than lose ground on their investment in it, that has to be the seller's call.

Here's hoping we can find the right mix to make this fest great!

 

[Thunderz]

People want to see what there buying, if I was putting a bid on a house I would look at its foundation first

Sorry didnt explain that correctly, i didnt mean you dont see the item, i ment you would put the description in the book of the item your intrested in along with you contact details and you price. Then drop it in [say a post box] and if yours is the highest offer you win.

Thunderz

 

[lineman]

Sorry didnt explain that correctly, i didnt mean you dont see the item, i ment you would put the description in the book of the item your intrested in along with you contact details and you price. Then drop it in [say a post box] and if yours is the highest offer you win.

Thunderz

I would like to hear more on everyones thoughts on this, is this something you may be interested in?

 

[lupushor]

Sorry didnt explain that correctly, i didnt mean you dont see the item, i ment you would put the description in the book of the item your intrested in along with you contact details and you price. Then drop it in [say a post box] and if yours is the highest offer you win.

Thunderz

I would like to hear more on everyones thoughts on this, is this something you may be interested in?

No.

This type of "envelope auction" works great in RL for public auctions, but mostly when there is just one subject auctioned. This is not the case at Fests.

- As a seller I would feel it would reduce the chances to get the most for my items, so I might decide to submit fewer items and sell the rest on boards, on the new "this is not an auction" trend started by Demonous.

- As a buyer, surprisingly, it would annoy me too. Why? Because I would not get any feeling of the outcome of each bid, so I would have a hard time managing my finances and bids to avoid bidding over my budget. This would be a nightmare at planning and might end up with no winning bids and I could get home empty handed and upset, instead of redirecting my money towards other items like it currently happens. (I feel I can't find the rights words to explain my thoughts on this, but I hope you get the point - book bid would just not work well on 80 items, maybe only if they were to be auctioned one at a time and that seems impossible).

I was always a huge supporter of live auctions, they are just so fun! I like the current system as well, not as much, but I understand why it was asked for. But please don't nerf the auction feeling further! What would be next? A "guess the right price" game?

Sorry, I vote no.