[Macefighting] Paladin questions

[CorwinXX]

I'm going to make a PvM char with:

120 mace
120 parrying
100 tactics
100 anatomy
110 chivalry

Skills cap is 700 so I have 150 points left. What is the best way to use them?

There are few ideas:

1)
90 healing
60 meditation

2)
90 healing
60 ninjitsu or something else to get 10 mana reduction on AI

3)
110 meditation
40 more points to tactics/anatomy

4)
100-120 resisting spells
30-50 meditation


And the second question is about equipment.
How to max hci/dci with a garg char?

I'm going to use a mace disk with DI/SuperSlayer/HML/HSL/HLL.
Also I'm going to have 4/6.

I can't alter leggings and bear mask.
What arties with HCI/DCI could I use?
(If I decide to have meditation than I need meditable armor).

 

[Taylor]

Of the options give above, I prefer the first. Healing is an essential for non-sampire, PvM-focused melee character. However, you'll have to remember to keep your armor medable if you use meditation.

 

[CorwinXX]

I've got 88 mace/103 chiv/68 healing at the moment. I'm hunting Fire Elems at Shame level 3 and Daemon mini-spawn in Abyss (good karma gain) now.
I almost don't use healing. Mostly I rely on Life Leach and for urgent healing I use Obsu Vulni because I haven't time to wait 5 sec for healing.

If I decide to go without meditation I use Void Infused Kilt (5 HCI).
Also I have cloth kilt with 5 hci and 5 dci (other mods are luck and resists).

With sign of order and orny I'll get 3/4 FC/FCR and 5/10 HCI/DCI.
I can get 5/10 HCI/DCI from Tally/Sash/Quiver and possibly 5 DCI from Apron.

It seems I have only ring and helm to get hci/dci/di/fc/fcr.

Helms:
Night Eyes: 10 DCI, 3 FCR
Folded Steel: 15 DCI
Swiftness: 1 FC, 2 FCR
Light of Way: 30 DI

 

[Gorbs]

Why did you decide to use a gargoyle for a macer? I've found the damage reduction on a melee character from armored swamp dragon to be worthwhile.

If you have HML on your weapon I'd skip meditation in favor of something else? I might try 70 healing / 80 ninja. The only ninja skills you'd be able to take advantage of are forms, mirror image, and focus attack, but it might be fun. I'm assuming you don't want bushido (so you can equip shield and use your parry) or necro.

 

[Mirt]

Why did you decide to use a gargoyle for a macer? I've found the damage reduction on a melee character from armored swamp dragon to be worthwhile.

If you have HML on your weapon I'd skip meditation in favor of something else? I might try 70 healing / 80 ninja. The only ninja skills you'd be able to take advantage of are forms, mirror image, and focus attack, but it might be fun. I'm assuming you don't want bushido (so you can equip shield and use your parry) or necro.

You parry with your weapon with bushido. While you can go after relatively low end things without healing or bushido if you go after more dangerous game you will find that life leech isn't reliable enough. Pots are a good way to go but your a bit limited and will probably not want to spend the points on your jewels. I would go with healing or take the sampire route on this. Of course that being said I have found that gargoyles are best for using as throwers they still seem to lag behind in melee a bit due to item restrictions.

 

[CorwinXX]

Right now I have 50 ninjitsu.
I can't use focus attack with shield.
I can't use AI when in animal form.
I can't use mirrow image when flying. I've tried MI vs elementals. It seems that image disappear after single hit.

From the other side with HML and 100 meditation I'm able to chain AI. So I'm in doubt. It seems I'd drop ninjutsu. But I'm keeping Ninjutsu and have marked down Meditation. Could anyone tell me in details about those Ninjutsu spells. Can them be useful for my char?

 

[CorwinXX]

I have no problems with Ice Fiends, Fire Elementals (shame lvl 3), Daemon Asbyss mini-spawn.

But I've got problems with Balrons in Blood Dungeon. They constantly poison, manadrain and paralyze me, so it's difficult to heal. Also I was surprised how much damage they do. Till now I've seen up to 77! And to completely confuse me sometimes they do just 15 damage.

It seems I should try orange petals and trapped box but I'm not sure I want to go to dungeon with 30 trapped boxes.

 

[Mirt]

The trap boxes keep working. You should be able to chain AI with just the mana leech the med is rather a waste. Healing will be an issue and right now your just going after what is essentially lower level things. Its going to get uglier if you go after big game or are dealing with multiple things. I am not sure that ninja will help you that much unless you don't mind being on the ground. Then you can use the forms for a big hit point reg boost. In fact last night with just around 40 hml I chain AIed a harry. It’s about number of hits because mana leech is finicky. There is one skill possibility that I think you have overlooked and that is trying to work in mysticism and focus. Then you add healing stone if you’re not suing a shield and cleansing winds which I think will help you out staying healed in nastier situations. Of course then you need faster casting and it would require a fairly major rework of your suit. Its not necessarily the easiest build your trying to do with this.

 

[Gorbs]

If you orient the box the correct direction you can re-use the same one over and over.

You have to be on foot for mirror image casting and they do only absorb one hit. It's not worth it for something that hits lightly. They are better for big damage monsters. From what you say it sounds like bushido and ninjitsu are less appealing due to preventing usage of a shield.

According to stratics, you'll need at 300 skill points from Swords, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Parrying, Lumberjacking, Stealth, Poisoning, Bushido and Ninjitsu to get the mana discount on specials. If you are already able to chain AI without getting the discount I'd suggest going with healing and seeing how you like that. You can heal damage at same time curing poison now.

 

[Mirt]

Yeap at half heal time you have a chance to heal poison and remove effects although this does diminish the amount of damage healed. Healing might be a good way to go. Of course all those other options are still just as valid as well.

 

[Klapauc]

Keep either ninjitsu or parry. With ninja you got mirror images, works much more reliable then parry except against mobs that do constant area damage like the fire eles in shame.
With ninja you also can use the feint special, it is your best defence on such a char against high level mobs.
Ofc if you want to roleplay a pure paladin, keep parry and ditch ninja.
Imho healing is a must. Otherwise you will spend most of your mana for close wounds and and cure poison against harder mobs. With bandages you can heal for free and use your mana for something else.
Also go to 120 chiv for the full damage bonus.

If you really do plan to use 4/6 chiv casting as your only form of healing, get 120 resist.
You could also drop parry and use spellweaving if you want something more unique to play with.

 

[CorwinXX]

Thank you for answers.

I'm going to try two things:

1. Equip Void Infused Kilt and go to Shame level 3... to check can I chain AI without meditation.

2. Craft trapped boxes (never did it before), buy orange petals and go to Blood Dungeon... to check whether Balrons will be easy.

1. Make crate (lockable)
2. Tinker with 30 skill (or as low as possible) traps it with a dart trap
3. Lock the crate with the key to arm trap
4. Cast Magic Unlock on the crate
5. Cast Magic Lock on the crate (to stop it opening when you pop it)
6. Orient it E/W in your pack like \

If you're not a mage just buy Magic Lock/Unlock scrolls from NPC mage.

 

[Mirt]

Thank you for answers.

I'm going to try two things:

1. Equip Void Infused Kilt and go to Shame level 3... to check can I chain AI without meditation.

2. Craft trapped boxes (never did it before), buy orange petals and go to Blood Dungeon... to check whether Balrons will be easy.

It will help the trapped boxes. Petals are great too. Also remember apples they are often overlooked (by me last night for example) and they can make a really big difference. Another quick question is, what’s your swing speed. See mana leech doesn't always work so if you’re going slow but hitting hard it’s not going to be as reliable as you maybe getting now. It’s something to consider. I would also recommend you try something really tough to test yourself. Thrasher in the grove seems to be a good idea or maybe a para cu. If you can handle those your golden.

 

[Klapauc]

Never underestimate balrons. I use them for honor farming, and on odd days when the moon shines in the wrong direction they are able to land 3 hits and several spells very fast even against 120 weapon skill and 45 dci.
They also do some pretty effective combos once you are low on health.

 

[Mirt]

Not underestimating them at all just stating how much more powerful other things are in the game.

 

[CorwinXX]

I've crafted a box but it doesn't work. I get "it's appear to be locked" when I click it and I don't get any damage.

I used a crafter for 1.
I used a char with 30.1 tinkering and 100 magery for 2-5.

 

[Mirt]

You need to have the key in the box and have it oriented east west.

 

[CorwinXX]

When should I put the key in the box?

 

[Gorbs]

For info on how to create and setup the box see this post here:
http://vboards.stratics.com/2063908-post8.html

 

[CorwinXX]

I've got it. I've been using wrong container type.
Well, now I have a trapped "box"... but I still need a habit to use it.

How do orange petals work? I ate it but got poisoned. Although it seems the poison had gone off pretty fast.
How can I see that effects of a petal is ended?

1. Equip Void Infused Kilt and go to Shame level 3... to check can I chain AI without meditation.

There was some problem - without proper equipment I have just 49 mana with Void Infused Kilt (I have 56 mana with my imbued kilt). But I think I'm able to chain AI without meditation except cases when I've used several spells in a row (like cure-heal-heal-remove curse-divine fury).

2. Craft trapped boxes (never did it before), buy orange petals and go to Blood Dungeon... to check whether Balrons will be easy.

It's easier but still not easy. Sometimes I miss few times in a row and a balron hits 5-6 times in a row (I decided to keep meditation for such cases).
Also I need to get a habit to use my trapped box.


What can I do vs Mana Drain?

 

[CorwinXX]

Thrasher in the grove seems to be a good idea or maybe a para cu.

I have just 92 macefighting at the moment. And my suit is bad (it's an old 100lrc suit from my mystic thrower with few empty slots). I'm not sure I'm able to kill even ordinal cu.

 

[Mirt]

There isn't much you can do about mana drain unless you can run resist (which you can't fit). Best advice is hit and leech. If your weapon is to slow to work then your in trouble but it should still be workable if your not using HLL.

 

[CorwinXX]

There isn't much you can do about mana drain unless you can run resist (which you can't fit). Best advice is hit and leech. If your weapon is to slow to work then your in trouble but it should still be workable if your not using HLL.

I use DI/SuperSlayer/HML/HSL/HLL mace disk. With DF buff on my speed is 1.25s when my stam is over 150 and 1.5s when my stam is lower. I recust DF when my stam is under ~135.

I've just tried UEV. I miss a lot but leach enough mana for chain AI and enough life to needn't heal at all (92 mace, 113 parry, ~80 tactics, ~90 anatomy, 35 hci, 35 dci with DF on).

 

[Mirt]

It seems like it’s a more or less viable build that you have got there then. Again the true tests are the para cu but if you can handle the unbounds well then your going well. Also sorry I missed the petal question but they give you a resistance to lower tier poisons somewhat like vamp form. There were changes with the same patch that handled poisoning and seem to be less powerful to me. That being said they really are a must for when you’re with monsters that can poison if for no other reason then the convenience. The 1.5 should be good enough to get you through on things are more dangerous with having to resort to DF for anything other then stamina. I think this temp should do pretty well in shame. Let me know how it does against a para cu once you get it suited up as I am really curious.

 

[CorwinXX]

I've just killed (solo) a paragon balron.

98 mac, 85 tactics, 113 parry

cheap 100 lrc suit that my mystic dexter used before he got his current suit

120 str 130 hp
120 dex 161 stam
66 mana
20 hci 50 dci


I used trapped crate, orange petals, NPC str/dex potions (+15 str/dex for 2 min).

 

[Mirt]

Yeap consumables make a huge difference. Glad that its working out for you and your working in those skills.

 

[Klapauc]

I've just killed (solo) a paragon balron.

98 mac, 85 tactics, 113 parry

cheap 100 lrc suit that my mystic dexter used before he got his current suit

120 str 130 hp
120 dex 161 stam
66 mana
20 hci 50 dci


I used trapped crate, orange petals, NPC str/dex potions (+15 str/dex for 2 min).

Congrats if you managed to kill a para balron with that suit and skill level. Good work.
Another thing i found working very well back when i tried macing on my gargoyle was to use a glass staff against mobs with low resists. Imbue max life and mana leech, chain double strikes. Works like a charm even against not so easy enemies.

 

[CorwinXX]

I'm going to imbue a suit.

5 imbued armor pieces:
40 MI, 40 SI, 25 HPI, 24 LMC

But there are 5 free property slots. How to use them?

I could imbue 10 MR but due to calculator I will get:
1.1603 MPS with 30 int, 70 meditation and 4 MR.
1.6136 MPS with 30 int, 70 meditation and 14 MR.
1.1466 MPS with 30 int, 15 meditation and 14 MR.

From the one side 0.45 MPS doesn't look as a great difference but from the other side 55 meditation does look.


Another way is to imbue 80 LRC and 6 LMC (so I could use 10 HCI 20 DI tally later).

p.s. The third way is to imbue 500 luck but I already have a char which has 900 luck (1900 with perfection)

 

[Klapauc]

Try to get 40 lmc. Mr next. Spending as little mana as possible is most important.

 

[CorwinXX]

I have 10 lmc on orny and 6 lmc on mana orb. So I need 24 lmc only on my armor.

p.s. And I got 4/6 with sign of order.

 

[CorwinXX]

chain double strikes

I like this idea but I can't use 2H weapons (haven't bushido, get FC/FCR from my shield). Are there any 1H gargish mace weapons with DS? (with bleed attack?)

 

[Klapauc]

I like this idea but I can't use 2H weapons (haven't bushido, get FC/FCR from my shield). Are there any 1H gargish mace weapons with DS? (with bleed attack?)

There is not much choice in gargish dexxer weapons. Your best bet for a one-hander would be an ubws katana. Or get healing for that char so that you do not need to rely on 4/6 chiv all the time.
Btw if you leech enough to not need close wounds in certain situations, why bother with 4/6 casting.

 

[Mirt]

I am with you if you truly want to run a paladin the 4/6 is the way to go. They are right your weapon choices aren't exactly overwhelming but its seems like you have built a nice niche temp. I would go for mana myself but then I am a mana junkie so I would probably go for my then is strictly necessary. Always remember though you can drop your shield to chug and then rearm it. Assist will help with that or EC.

 

[CorwinXX]

I haven't much time to play so my char is still not finished.
117 mace
100 tactics, anatomy
110 chivalry (120 with shield)
76 healing
113 parry (doesn't go up with shield but I could get 120 very fast with 2H axe)
84 meditation

I did another attempt to use void kilt but it seems I can't do well without meditation.

Your best bet for a one-hander would be an ubws katana.

I don't want to use ubws weapons:
- I haven't free slots on my weapon because I need slayer/di/leeches. I even haven't room for hld.
- For katana I would better make an elf char. Mace disk with its huge leaches was the main argument for a garg char.

Btw if you leech enough to not need close wounds in certain situations, why bother with 4/6 casting.

I haven't problem with melee monsters (well 12+ raptors at the same time could be dangerous) but vs tough spellcasters I pretty often just stay and cast-cast-cast chiv spells for a few seconds (this is why I need meditation).

BTW healing skill doesn't help because there are mainly two situations:
- I leach back the damage taken
- I haven't time to wait for bandage gets applied
So I'm thinking about replacing healing with something more useful. I have two ideas at the moment:

1. Resisting Spells
With petals it takes 1-2 secs to resist poison. Sometimes I have to use chiv spell to cure because the next hit/spell can kill me. I need to react to Blood Oath very fast if I don't want to die. I believe I will be mana drained much less with Resisting Spells.

2. Spellweaving
I've never used this skill before but it looks nice.
The only thing I'm fear - I think I need to unequip my weapon to use it.

Always remember though you can drop your shield to chug and then rearm it.

I have macroes for drinking potions but not sure what delay should I put between drinking and equipping/unequipping.

p.s. I was going to try my char vs peerless but recognized that they all are Fey Slayer or No Slayer (except Medusa and Stygian Dragon). And without slayer I do very little damage (80-90 with AI) and don't leach enough mana for chain AI.

I think I should try champ spawns although lack of WW weapon can become a problem.

 

[CorwinXX]

I have tried varios Spawns in Ilshenar. The main problem is level 3. Without WW I don't leach enough life to stand vs large crowd. Level 4 is easier because I take them one by one. Haven't chance to solo a boss since always someone else come.

p.s. I still use my 100 lrc suit (120 str/dex, 20 hci). I use normal str potions vs Bosses and don't use dex potions.

 

[CorwinXX]

I would also recommend you try something really tough to test yourself. Thrasher in the grove seems to be a good idea or maybe a para cu. If you can handle those your golden.

I have tried a para cu few days ago. It didn't look very difficult. I get it down to 50% hp then was attacked by a changelink and ran away.

P.S. Since I have not perfection and slayer I can't chain AI vs cu.

 

[CorwinXX]

I have finished my new suit today.

 

[CorwinXX]

p.s. I'm not sure I need 185 stamina because my swing speed is maxed with 120 stamina.

 

[CorwinXX]

There is one note for my new suit:
With 30% LRC 10k Titling Points is not enough to do a spawn. It's not a problem for Humiliy Spawn (I can loot some gold from few Paragons, run to the Ankh and get more TP) but on other spawns it may be tediously.

 

[Taylor]

Nice suit.

If nothing else, the extra stamina will keep your swing speed from dropping when you get hit.

 

[Obsidian]

I have tried varios Spawns in Ilshenar. The main problem is level 3. Without WW I don't leach enough life to stand vs large crowd. Level 4 is easier because I take them one by one. Haven't chance to solo a boss since always someone else come.

This is why I like having bushido's momentum strike as an option when I don't have a suitable whirlwind weapon. Whirlwind or using momentum with a hit area effect are devastating in spawns. The lack of a whirlwind weapon (other than the gargish talwar which is a 3.5s base speed weapon) is part of the reason I only use gargoyles for throwers.

 

[NuSair]

There is one note for my new suit:
With 30% LRC 10k Titling Points is not enough to do a spawn. It's not a problem for Humiliy Spawn (I can loot some gold from few Paragons, run to the Ankh and get more TP) but on other spawns it may be tediously.

30% LRC does not work with tithing points, it's either all or none.

 

[Gorbs]

30% LRC does not work with tithing points, it's either all or none.

Wow, learn something new everyday.

 

[NuSair]

Wow, learn something new everyday.

Unless something has changed- and I'll go test it again shortly.

But-
If you have 100% LRC then your Chivalry spells cost 0 tithing points.

Anything less than 100% LRC doesn't reduce the amount of tithing points needed.

 

[NuSair]

Unless something has changed- and I'll go test it again shortly.

But-
If you have 100% LRC then your Chivalry spells cost 0 tithing points.

Anything less than 100% LRC doesn't reduce the amount of tithing points needed.

Ah ok.... NEVERMIND just ignore me.... I could have sworn that is the way it worked.... but evidently not.

I took a naked character, tossed on an RBC and pendant of the magi and was getting about half my spells free.

Going back to crafting armor and pwning champ spawns.

 

[CorwinXX]

Finally I've found time to adjust my suit. I remade 2 items (shield and ring) to maximize hci (was 48). Now it (with potions and df):
50/45 hci/dci
150/185/77
4/6, 12 MR