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Idea for making plate armor useful

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grig_since98

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Armor in the middle ages and even in the classical period was more about cost and materials available. Why in Japan did they not have metal plate? Well take a look at the amount of iron ore coming out of Japan. Japan doesn't have an abundant amount of iron ore. Celts did not have the advancements in metallurgy necessary to forge complicated metal armor and iron mining in Britain was very limited until the steam engine due to the low water table. Forms of plate were used in the Indian subcontinent but military affairs were given less of a priority and much of those occurred after the crossbow. Asian armies tended to be large and the open plains tended to promote larger armies of fast moving cavalry where the emphasis was on siege warfare. The plate armor weighs about as much as a modern combat load (without pack) and was as well distributed. Is it heavy heck yes. Ask anyone that has ever done a dismounted patrol, is it going to slow you down that much, not really. That being said all the belief that leather was ever used as armor is completely false. It was believed to be used in the classical period from looking at Roman statues. When they looked closer they realized that it was scale that rain had eroded down. For a leather armor to provide any protection it would need to be cured so hard as to immovable providing much less range of movement then plate. That being said there should be some advantages that give plate a boost even if it’s only removing the disadvantages. There certainly shouldn't be the largest base resist for studded leather armor.
While Ive never seen a depiction of a "fantasy" leather armor historically, my understanding is that what we call brigandine or a coat of plates, being a leather garmet with plates of hardened leather or metal, was extremely common. Are you saying this isn't the case?
 

Mirt

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I think that idea could work make all armour medable and give metal a -1 fc penalty
That would be fine if resists on leather were dropped by half. That would be a good trade off. You want to cast your going to need more magic in your suit to protect you. You want protection go with metal (or stone I view them the same). Woodland armor is still way way way stronger but at least it balances the human only armor.
 

Herman

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I think that idea could work make all armour medable and give metal a -1 fc penalty
That would be fine if resists on leather were dropped by half. That would be a good trade off. You want to cast your going to need more magic in your suit to protect you. You want protection go with metal (or stone I view them the same). Woodland armor is still way way way stronger but at least it balances the human only armor.
If u want all warriors to run around in metal yes
I only want to have the choice to do so

What about just a small increase in base ressist to metal that would work for me
 

Mirt

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Was only commenting on the post saying no more mage armor just give metal armor a -1fc. If we want to make them all equal I can live with that as well. But currently metal (and stone) armor are at a huge disadvantage and that makes no sense at all.
 

GalenKnighthawke

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Well yes... then look at their casualty rates against disciplined, armoured troops and consider whether their 'choice' came from cultural preference, or availability of technologies and options - neither of which truly hold in UO.
Based on my readings it surely was choice; religious and cultural.

One of the reasons the Celts held out against the Romans for so long was that their weapons technology was actually supposedly better than the Romans.

That the Celts won with ferocity and numbers, and finally were defeated by Roman discipline and determination, was a Roman story that's been challenged by scholars. Indeed some scholars have decided to reject, near-wholesale, much of what Julius Caesar's about the Celts, but some still accept at least some of it.

But yeah, my distinct impression is that it was a cultural choice and they did really well with it for quite awhile.

I always thought that shock value was a factor in this costume choice, frankly.

I can imagine their enemies dying while thinking "hey, is that dude naked?"

-Galen's player
 

GalenKnighthawke

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While Ive never seen a depiction of a "fantasy" leather armor historically, my understanding is that what we call brigandine or a coat of plates, being a leather garmet with plates of hardened leather or metal, was extremely common. Are you saying this isn't the case?
It happened, no idea how common it was.

Armor appears to be a terribly complex topic.

As does weaponry, particularly swords, by the way.

There's some good documentaries on YouTube that make good background while one is playing UO, and many good books to read.

-Galen's player
 

Viquire

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Nice discussion, really highlights how much technology we have lost the means to reproduce. Blue steel, Carbon or Toledo steel.

In my mind, the highest grades of metal should allow for lighter weight, more flexibility without giving up protection, or bite harder, hold an edge longer, negate some armor protection if there is enough momentum behind the blade, think axe as opposed to sword, or pierce through armor of lesser materials with great ease. That's just conjecture on my part though.

Just a couple of thoughts I have had over time, how is it that metal, any metal, allows for diffusion of damage types as they are represented in UO. *shrug* And really the biggie for me, how is it that the strength requirement is almost halved when gold is applied to armor? Its stooopid, I know, and I am not asking for answers.:pie:

However, the writer in me wishes things would make enough sense so as not to force us into suspend disbelief in the world we are in and the systems that exist within it.

Looking over in the Mage Tower thread brought back fond memories of days gone by. Life was simpler and you could look how you wanted to look. I'm fiddling around with another game now, where crafting is very very different. I'm trying to decide how much better I like it and why.
 

Mirt

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Based on my readings it surely was choice; religious and cultural.

One of the reasons the Celts held out against the Romans for so long was that their weapons technology was actually supposedly better than the Romans.

That the Celts won with ferocity and numbers, and finally were defeated by Roman discipline and determination, was a Roman story that's been challenged by scholars. Indeed some scholars have decided to reject, near-wholesale, much of what Julius Caesar's about the Celts, but some still accept at least some of it.

But yeah, my distinct impression is that it was a cultural choice and they did really well with it for quite awhile.

I always thought that shock value was a factor in this costume choice, frankly.

I can imagine their enemies dying while thinking "hey, is that dude naked?"

-Galen's player
You were given some bad information. It was not choice. In fact Celts would take armor off of dead Romans. The idea that it was a type of beserker was something that a few Roman "historians" came up with. It was designed to show their savagry and insanity. Bodica wore armor as did many of her troops and that was one of the largest Celt uprisings. It was just limited to those that could afford it. Inital before the Marian reforms this was the case with the Roman army as well. It was the fact that there are really no options for armor in the real world other then metal. If you don't have metal at your disposal you are forced to do without. Brigandine armor as it was is more a fantasy concept. Most suits of semi plate armor going back to roman times required some kind of padding under them. This was at first a leather jerkin. Later as the armor became first chain and then plate this became larger and thicker and went to a quilted padding. At that point it became what is known as a arming jacket. That being said the only time in history that larger thicker armor was available and was not taken was during the latter crusades and that was largely due to climate and the difficulty of altering the armor to fit a new wearer.
 

Mirt

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Nice discussion, really highlights how much technology we have lost the means to reproduce. Blue steel, Carbon or Toledo steel.

In my mind, the highest grades of metal should allow for lighter weight, more flexibility without giving up protection, or bite harder, hold an edge longer, negate some armor protection if there is enough momentum behind the blade, think axe as opposed to sword, or pierce through armor of lesser materials with great ease. That's just conjecture on my part though.

Just a couple of thoughts I have had over time, how is it that metal, any metal, allows for diffusion of damage types as they are represented in UO. *shrug* And really the biggie for me, how is it that the strength requirement is almost halved when gold is applied to armor? Its stooopid, I know, and I am not asking for answers.:pie:

However, the writer in me wishes things would make enough sense so as not to force us into suspend disbelief in the world we are in and the systems that exist within it.

Looking over in the Mage Tower thread brought back fond memories of days gone by. Life was simpler and you could look how you wanted to look. I'm fiddling around with another game now, where crafting is very very different. I'm trying to decide how much better I like it and why.
For the most part we can duplicate the steel if we wanted to. While there was some discussion of Damascus steel in the past its more about usage. Tool grade steel is what most weapons would be made of were they made today. There just isn't much use for it anymore. As for armor making its still going on. There aren't many people doing it but there are ways to get fully functional suits of armor. Fully functional weapons are easier to get but it’s important to remember that for the most part these weapons were not designed to parry blows that’s more a Hollywood conceit.
 

GalenKnighthawke

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You were given some bad information. It was not choice. In fact Celts would take armor off of dead Romans. The idea that it was a type of beserker was something that a few Roman "historians" came up with. It was designed to show their savagry and insanity. Bodica wore armor as did many of her troops and that was one of the largest Celt uprisings. It was just limited to those that could afford it. Inital before the Marian reforms this was the case with the Roman army as well. It was the fact that there are really no options for armor in the real world other then metal. If you don't have metal at your disposal you are forced to do without. Brigandine armor as it was is more a fantasy concept. Most suits of semi plate armor going back to roman times required some kind of padding under them. This was at first a leather jerkin. Later as the armor became first chain and then plate this became larger and thicker and went to a quilted padding. At that point it became what is known as a arming jacket. That being said the only time in history that larger thicker armor was available and was not taken was during the latter crusades and that was largely due to climate and the difficulty of altering the armor to fit a new wearer.
Source was this book:

Amazon.com: The Druids (9780802841582): Peter Berresford Ellis: Books

by an English historian named Ellis. The book actually argued against the notion that we should take seriously what the Romans said about the Celts. (Though that book is in particularly about the Druid class, he also wrote about the warriors I'm thinking of and made a direct connection between them and a group of Hindu Paladins who were also naked chariot riders.)

I believe they were also mentioned in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Celtic-Warriors-400BC-160AD-Tim-Newark/dp/0713720433

but I don't recall for sure and I don't know who Tim Newark is.

-Galen's player
 

GalenKnighthawke

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For the most part we can duplicate the steel if we wanted to. While there was some discussion of Damascus steel in the past its more about usage. Tool grade steel is what most weapons would be made of were they made today. There just isn't much use for it anymore. As for armor making its still going on. There aren't many people doing it but there are ways to get fully functional suits of armor. Fully functional weapons are easier to get but it’s important to remember that for the most part these weapons were not designed to parry blows that’s more a Hollywood conceit.
I'd heard that or read that somewhere too.

Never did quite make sense to me....Then I started watching renaissance martial arts fights on YouTube and lo and behold, lots of parrying. And by coincidence I saw some documentary that had illustrations from fight manuals at the time. Lots of parrying. Then I heard the need to parry with the weapon is one reason the broadsword evolved from viking swords to the broadswords ("arming swords") so familiar to us.

One form of Japanese fencing has almost no parrying with the weapon at all. (I can neither spell nor pronounce the name.) Another, the more-famous kendo, seems to have a lot of it.

I kid you not, 3 different sources I was exposed to said 3 different things about samurai armor. A History Channel documentary said their armor had no metal, save the helmet. A PBS documentary said their armor had metal in strategic points but no solid metal pieces. Then some book had what appeared to be pictures of samurai armor breastplates that were solid metal pieces.

It's strange, really, how uncertain our knowledge of these times is.

Strange and a little creepy, in all honesty. It's not like these folks didn't keep records, it's not like historians haven't read those records for decades now.

Yet here we are.

-Galen's player
 

Mirt

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I'd heard that or read that somewhere too.

Never did quite make sense to me....Then I started watching renaissance martial arts fights on YouTube and lo and behold, lots of parrying. And by coincidence I saw some documentary that had illustrations from fight manuals at the time. Lots of parrying. Then I heard the need to parry with the weapon is one reason the broadsword evolved from viking swords to the broadswords ("arming swords") so familiar to us.

One form of Japanese fencing has almost no parrying with the weapon at all. (I can neither spell nor pronounce the name.) Another, the more-famous kendo, seems to have a lot of it.

I kid you not, 3 different sources I was exposed to said 3 different things about samurai armor. A History Channel documentary said their armor had no metal, save the helmet. A PBS documentary said their armor had metal in strategic points but no solid metal pieces. Then some book had what appeared to be pictures of samurai armor breastplates that were solid metal pieces.

It's strange, really, how uncertain our knowledge of these times is.

Strange and a little creepy, in all honesty. It's not like these folks didn't keep records, it's not like historians haven't read those records for decades now.

Yet here we are.

-Galen's player
Oh they trained for it, that being said imagine striking two equally strong things together. Its not a good idea. If anyone here is thinking of sword fighting please for the love of god wear proper protective equipment and if you have dependents have your life insurance premiums up to date. For the most part hitting two swords together is a bad idea. This is one of the leading reasons a shield was invented. That being said it was something that was considered and put in the manuals, but those manuals were more like katas then actual fights which tended to be very violet and relatively short. If anyone wonders why a scimitar and a metal baseball bat have around the same weight to them. Take one out and swing it against a think tree all day. As for most of the historical work on the druids. That is based mostly on conjecture or the English archeological record which is fragmented at best. I love the UK its a beautiful place and the people are nice. That being said the weather is cold and wet which means most things get destroyed (like Japan) so most of the record comes from peat bogs which is imho far to small a sample to draw conclusions from. Of course that might be because I am a historian and not an archeologist. As to Japanese armor most of that is because they are trying to summarize many many decades of armor and technology and put it into one area. Metal was used as it was available but it never widely was. That is likely one of the reasons that the Samaria code developed as it did. If your looking for more information on Japanese armor I do have a few books somewhere in my collection on it I would be happy to give you titles.
 
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