Pet Rebalance Idea

[Jade of Sonoma]

That is exactly what I am talking about. PVPer's took over the world of taming when the Nightmare was brought into existance. Up until then, warriors considered tamers wimps and that was before Trammel.

I can understand your point of view and have to agree, exactly with what you are saying. I didn't express my opinion wishing to start an argument It's the way I, as a tamer since 1997, who has had to battle PVP for years, thinks. That's all. Ever since the game began tamer's have been a bone of contention with warriors and pvp. It is something that makes me smile because of the irony. As many tamers have said, Tamers are always getting nerfed because ... because ..

Don't get offended. It's just one player's opinion .. and will never become a fact in UO.

I don't visit Felucca since greater dragons spawned in Destard. I had a house at the entrance there for ages and dropped it a few years ago.

 

[LadyNico]

*chuckles* Hard to get offended over a leisure time activity, Jade, though some manage it well enough!

Mares made taming exciting for me. Dodging the pks, avoiding the guilds who tied up the mare spawns, and escaping with a mare under my tamers' butts was a thrill.

Balance in pvp is something to be strived for, I believe. It boggles my mind everything that has to be considered, and how one tiny change can throw the entire system out of balance. Adding follower slots is a BIG change.

Without adjusting downwards the stats/skills/abilities of all pets, adding follower slots is impossible without giving a grossly unfair advantage to tamers.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

*chuckle*- -
Mares made taming exciting for me. Dodging the pks, avoiding the guilds who tied up the mare spawns, and escaping with a mare under my tamers' butts was a thrill. - -

You know. You've been there! *grin* - was exciting. Ever since the nightmare, taming became a nightmare .. with guilds tying up the mare spawns, then the thieving-type-players forming bridges onto Patio houses that a mare could use to pick up loot from within the house and every pk wanting to own a mare thus suddenly becoming chummy with tamers until they were able to build their own tamers and take over the Champ spawns plus everything else .. And on and on it went .. until -- look at balancing ideas being put forth in this thread.

Nothing is simple. To me taming was always simple, hard work to achieve and useful for hunting other monsters, or as bodyguards against anyone attacking me. For a long time there, the warriors and pk were totally capable of killing any and all of my pet dragons. They'd kill all my pets then go after me, until I decided to tell one of my pets to guard me and the rest to guard each other including the pet that was guarding me. At that time I would wander around with at least four dragons. And heaven forbid that anyone dare attack one of my dragons or me.

Anyhow all that aside, what I prefer isn't going to achieve anything now. The damage done. There's no going back.

 

[Herman]

I m all for improving some pets even some of the high end need to get alot better in PVM

Then we have the pvp side
I dont pvp but as far as i Know the problem is that it is 2v1
Tamer+pet vs 1

It is easy to say that the pet need to get nurfed alot to get balance but in doing so they will make tamers worthless in pvm

Ex. archertamer (archer+dread) vs pure archer how much would that dread need to get nurfed in order to get balance between those 2 templates?

So why not nerf the tamer instead how come everyone is OK with the fact u only need to use up 200 skill points in order to command the best pets in game

Then we have the pets that dont need any taming ex. (vollems) if u nerf the tamers those pets would get wery powerfull so they also need to get nerfed



Nerf tamers stop the tamer hybrid in pvp
Bost pets that need taming maybe not cu gd and dread but many need some love
Nerf some of the pets that dont need any taming



LoL alot of nerfing and boosting maybe it is not that bad afterall

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

I m all for improving some pets even some of the high end need to get alot better in PVM

Then we have the pvp side
I dont pvp but as far as i Know the problem is that it is 2v1
Tamer+pet vs 1

It is easy to say that the pet need to get nurfed alot to get balance but in doing so they will make tamers worthless in pvm

Ex. archertamer (archer+dread) vs pure archer how much would that dread need to get nurfed in order to get balance between those 2 templates?

So why not nerf the tamer instead how come everyone is OK with the fact u only need to use up 200 skill points in order to command the best pets in game

Then we have the pets that dont need any taming ex. (vollems) if u nerf the tamers those pets would get wery powerfull so they also need to get nerfed



Nerf tamers stop the tamer hybrid in pvp
Bost pets that need taming maybe not cu gd and dread but many need some love
Nerf some of the pets that dont need any taming



LoL alot of nerfing and boosting maybe it is not that bad afterall

Staggering mess of nerfings and boostings to me! I have a question about your nerfing the Tamer and needing to use up 200 skill points in order to command the best pets in game - how is that so? Using Jewelry? The lowest any of my tamers have in skills is 100 lore/vet/tame _ 300 points. Mine all have above that level with a few main tamers at 120 x 3. Plus magery at 120 X 3. I would not want to become part of the nerfing after all the work I went through to earn those skills.

Tamers were nerfed before over and over again .. especially with new skill requirements and Power Scrolls being necessary that could be obtained only in felucca. I used to have a very useful swordsman/tamer/mage/bard .. all on one character...until he got nerfed to death with new requirements for all those skills ... no soul stones at that time so had to drop hard earned skills to keep the ones I wanted, like taming and magery... now - - Nerf the tamer - - round circle. haha what else?

 

[Zosimus]

TL;DR

I read some but I would just like to add.....

DEVS!!! Please make Shadow Wyrms tameable. I'm saying it like it should of been done by yesterday

 

[LadyNico]

TL;DR

I read some but I would just like to add.....

DEVS!!! Please make Shadow Wyrms tameable. I'm saying it like it should of been done by yesterday

...and and and Ancient Wyverns with extra insta-OooOoo level poisoning, please!

 

[Herman]

Staggering mess of nerfings and boostings to me! I have a question about your nerfing the Tamer and needing to use up 200 skill points in order to command the best pets in game - how is that so? Using Jewelry? The lowest any of my tamers have in skills is 100 lore/vet/tame _ 300 points. Mine all have above that level with a few main tamers at 120 x 3. Plus magery at 120 X 3. I would not want to become part of the nerfing after all the work I went through to earn those skills.

Tamers were nerfed before over and over again .. especially with new skill requirements and Power Scrolls being necessary that could be obtained only in felucca. I used to have a very useful swordsman/tamer/mage/bard .. all on one character...until he got nerfed to death with new requirements for all those skills ... no soul stones at that time so had to drop hard earned skills to keep the ones I wanted, like taming and magery... now - - Nerf the tamer - - round circle. haha what else?

It was suppose to be around 200 i think u need 110 lore 110 taming to controll greater dragons maybe u even can do it with a little less
I dont think having vet is very common for pvp tamers and as far as magery go then u are on another skill group
I know many templates would suffer if they would nerf tamers like that i m also a tamer and like playing him wery much
THis thread was about boosting pets and alot of pets need to get better in pvm but how can u boost them if they already are 2 strong in pvp
that was all

other than that i think it is pretty good the way it is right now for tamers the best part is that people dont complain so much about tamers anymore

 

[elspeth]

...and and and Ancient Wyverns with extra insta-OooOoo level poisoning, please!

The last thing I want to do is unbalance pvp. I wasn't around for it but I heard the stories of tamers having zillions of dragons and killing everything. Sure, it would be fun for me but yeah, the whining that would happen . . . .

I think what I most desire is to have viable alternatives to a greater dragon. I would like to use my cu which is mostly a tank along with something that does decent damage. With only 5 control slots you can't do that. And you certainly can't make a 1 control slot creature with enough damage because then having 5 of them would probably be too unbalancing. At least that's what I think. Truth is though, I am not 3x120. I dropped some lore and vet to gain the benefits of spellweaving and I see no reason to go back. However, I might go back if I had an extra control slot. I think that in pvm it would give good boosts to pets and allow for much greater variety and I really like the idea as long as it doesn't unbalance pvp. But it sounds like you would know better than me how unbalancing it would be. Can you not think of anything that would offset that balance? *grins* sorry, just hard for me to give up the idea because it seems like it would make so much sense at least as far as pvm goes. Of course, I'm not sure that keeping people from whining is a good enough reason to not do something . . .

I know lots of people want them but I don't think taming shadow wyrms and ancient wyrms is such a good idea. They would certainly need more than 5 control slots eh? I mean, a shadow wyrm can animate dead and summon revenants, that seems to me quite a bit more powerful than even a greater dragon and the ancient wyrms. *phew* I suppose they could be nerfed and lose necro abilities upon taming though. If it's just the look you want, well, that I support. Maybe give us "dragon restyling" deeds so that we can change the colors and such of our dragons. Hmm, does that sound as horrible as I think?

alright, I'm gonna stop babbling now.

 

[G.v.P]

The last thing I want to do is unbalance pvp. I wasn't around for it but I heard the stories of tamers having zillions of dragons and killing everything. Sure, it would be fun for me but yeah, the whining that would happen . . . .

The problem I have with people who complain about PvP concerns is I'm not seeing a lot of constructive discussion, just people who are saying "I'm scared what will happen if anything changes" and people who think "pets are too strong, don't make pets stronger." I feel like, as Zosimus actually admitted, some of the posters are tl;dr (too long, didn't read) people who are responding to the word "rebalance" as if it's meant to say PvP balance.

If you look at PvP back around T2A, you could tame infinite Dragons, WWs, etc., but there wasn't bonding and an opposing player could cast a gate and have all of the pets go through it to the other side. In other words, players had interesting ways to counter pets. Today, pet PvP is complicated by special moves, insta log-out saves (when you log out just to save a pet, which is very frustrating for a PvP opponent), advanced third party cheats (Cu Sidhe speedhacking), and timed firebreath (Dread Warhorse/Greater Dragon), which I'm not sure if EA ever fixed. Therefore, most if not all of the reasons why pets are deemed OP in PvP is because of questionable in-game systems or third party cheats, not really the tameables themselves. Yes, a fully trained Greater Dragon is, for all purposes, OP under certain fair gameplay situations. But none of the "fix" changes I am suggesting will create anything close to a Greater Dragon.

To repeat, for the tl;dr people, none of the "fix" changes I am suggesting will create PvP imbalance. ;P

 

[Wenchkin]

I agree with most of the upgrades, though I'd accept more modest ones too. However, there are two that I disagree with - the WW and fire steed. Increasing control slots is a bad idea. If you increase control slots you make a pet instantly less versatile. You change how a tamer has to use that pet with the other pets in their stables. EAM also tend to put higher skill requirements on improved pets, so that's going to be a little awkward on a fire steed The control slot thing alone would make me refuse to upgrade a WW. If extra power comes at the expense of versatility, I don't think it's much of an improvement tbh.

The good news is that greater drags and dreads are not a standard that other pets have to be buffed to. In fact if you look at the history, dreads and GDs were mistakes - we just got to keep them. Pets released after that blip have been significantly less powerful. So if I wanted the devs to consider a pet boost, I'd make it very modest and reasonable in line with that. And simply accept that the GD was a mistake that probably wouldn't be repeated. The GD opened up a right can of worms, or should I say wyrms (sorry, couldn't resist!)

So yeah, tl,dr... improve/upgrade pets, but stop short of the point where we get a control slot increase. We don't need to push that far. Any improvement to our pets should be in line with how they work now, just better. It would be a real shame to leave tamers with old WWs or steeds to either upgrade and accept the disruption or miss out on an updated pet altogether. Make the upgrade as appealing to all tamers as possible, not just the power hungry ones The more reasonable requests are, the more likely we are to get them.

The whole overpowered/balance thing isn't just about Fel and PvP though. For starters, PvP happens in Tram too. Secondly, an overpowered tamer is a pain in the butt whatever facet they're on: a dragon doesn't need to be chewing your rear to be troublesome. Some players simply don't know where to stop unless there's a brick wall in front of them. Griefers and brats can be very creative in how they annoy others in Tram. The Tram ruleset actually makes griefing easier and safer than in Fel. So the game needs balance as a whole, not just in Fel, not just to keep PvPers in line...

Wenchy

 

[pgib]

Let me tame Sudiva and I'll show to the Slasher of Veils my idea of "rebalanced"...

 

[Llewen]

Those creatures are all perfect the way they are.

Balance Greater Dragons, Dread Mares, Bane Dragons.

Greater Dragons Upon taming they turn into normal dragons.

Dread Mares Are converted into normal Nightmares.

Bane Dragons Are converted to be the equivalent of a Nightmare.

Rune Beetles Armor corrosion is based off of the targets resisting spells skill.

Oh and add a combat flag timer to pets also. There's balance.

Spoken like a true tamer hater.

Let me think, on my shard, and the numbers are similar on other shards:

- One of the very best pvp'rs on the shard is a wicked tamer with a greater dragon.

- One of the very best pvp'rs on the shard is a mystic mage.

- One of the very best pvp'rs on the shard is a dexxer.

And when you break down the numbers for pvp'rs, it seems to me that it balances pretty evenly between tamers, mages, dexxers, archers and throwers. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see much out of balance on my shard.

On Atlantic however, it seems like every single decent pvp'r has ninjitsu, no matter what their template. Maybe there's a balance issue there that needs to be looked at?

When it comes to pvm, greater dragons are the meatshield of choice, but unlike any other template, including any tamer template, sampires can still solo anything in the game (now that I think of it there are one or two exceptions with that ability that corrupts life leech). I think sampires are still out of whack when it comes to pvm - however I've heard rumours that some "balancing" with regard to that is coming down the pipe.

 

[enderz]

Pvp talk is rotting this thread.

Please take elsewhere when/if the OP ideas are considered by the devs.

Till then your just crappin on everyone else's possible future hat.

Thnx

 

[G.v.P]

I agree with most of the upgrades, though I'd accept more modest ones too. However, there are two that I disagree with - the WW and fire steed. Increasing control slots is a bad idea. If you increase control slots you make a pet instantly less versatile. You change how a tamer has to use that pet with the other pets in their stables.

Since the changes wouldn't be retroactive there wouldn't be any change for those tamers who wouldn't want change. You could still, for example, use a WW and a nightmare combo. However, there is some question as to whether anyone would use a 4-slot WW or a 3-slot Firesteed. The Firesteed would at least provide some new exciting pack situations, whereas the WW would only give the benefit of having a mount.

Most tamers are fully accustomed to being on foot with the peerless that is the Greater Dragon, so I agree with your position on the slot-changes in that, while they would not be forced upon anyone, they might not be inviting enough, either.

The 4-slot is a hard sell since nothing short of an Ice Serpent or an Ethy maybe is worth the extra 1-slot...maybe one way to improve upon a WW a bit more without creating imbalance would be to increase it's Magery cap to 120, which would bolster its healing ability...but even then, it's tough to create a reason to use a WW over a Cu Sidhe at the 4.

I feel like if you upgrade a 3-slot WW without changing the slot you'd have to upgrade the 3-slot Dragon and probably all of the other 3-slots. The problem is the original WW and Dragon had balance before AOS. The WW had higher base damage while the Dragon had firebreath. Many favored the WW for its color, but either option seemed viable. Post-AOS, the abundance of fire-based spells made the WW worthless. But if you upgrade its fire resist you defeat the purpose of the WW being cold-based. Perhaps, then, the best fix for the WW would be if--when and if they revise Ice Dungeon--certain, high end creatures do nothing but cold damage. Still, it seems as if a Cu Sidhe would be picked over a WW in that situation, hehe, so you run into a circular...can't think of the word so I'll say dilemma, haha.

 

[Wenchkin]

Since the changes wouldn't be retroactive there wouldn't be any change for those tamers who wouldn't want change. You could still, for example, use a WW and a nightmare combo. However, there is some question as to whether anyone would use a 4-slot WW or a 3-slot Firesteed. The Firesteed would at least provide some new exciting pack situations, whereas the WW would only give the benefit of having a mount.

I know it's not something we would have to upgrade, but what concerns me is that it's a case of take the downsides or don't get a boost or update for those pets. I would like to really feel it was a tempting option considering all my tamers still have unis, drags, WWs and such. The goal should IMO be to boost pets as far as you can, but not to the point where another control slot is necessary. Then we can all get the upgrade and it's actually a viable proposition for tamers like myself.

The 4-slot is a hard sell since nothing short of an Ice Serpent or an Ethy maybe is worth the extra 1-slot...maybe one way to improve upon a WW a bit more without creating imbalance would be to increase it's Magery cap to 120, which would bolster its healing ability...but even then, it's tough to create a reason to use a WW over a Cu Sidhe at the 4.

Historically I always looked upon my old drags as the tanks, the WW as the more elegant magical one. So I think it makes sense to focus on the magical side of the WW, perhaps with an alternative to the old mass curse, frost breath, cold damaging special attack etc.

I feel like if you upgrade a 3-slot WW without changing the slot you'd have to upgrade the 3-slot Dragon and probably all of the other 3-slots. The problem is the original WW and Dragon had balance before AOS. The WW had higher base damage while the Dragon had firebreath. Many favored the WW for its color, but either option seemed viable. Post-AOS, the abundance of fire-based spells made the WW worthless. But if you upgrade its fire resist you defeat the purpose of the WW being cold-based. Perhaps, then, the best fix for the WW would be if--when and if they revise Ice Dungeon--certain, high end creatures do nothing but cold damage. Still, it seems as if a Cu Sidhe would be picked over a WW in that situation, hehe, so you run into a circular...can't think of the word so I'll say dilemma, haha.

I think given that we have lots of 2/3 slot pet combos with the older pets, it's really important to keep that. A 4 slot pet is a pain to partner up and swap in the stables. And it's good to have a range of power in our pets so we have different challenge levels if we want to test our pet handling skills. And honestly, before the GD arrived we were all out using these old pets. It's not so much that they're rubbish, more that they aren't the new shiny big guys anymore. I think some need more of an update than an upgrade if that makes sense

Wenchy

 

[LadyNico]

...The goal should IMO be to boost pets as far as you can, but not to the point where another control slot is necessary. Then we can all get the upgrade and it's actually a viable proposition for tamers like myself.

This!

 

[sherkborg]

I think:

Reptalons: More DPS. Plain and simple. Remove para special and replace with something unique and useful. IE. a Energy resist lowering special? Thus creating more dps and allowing a tamer to add dps in the energy side.



White Wyrms: (Adding regular dragons here too).
Make them 2 slots or 2.5 slots. The HP/Damage/Casting abilites of a 3 slot dragon are WAY under powered compared to a greater. Make it so a tamer can have 2 and then you will have something very comparable to the greater dragon. Also make dragons cast faster, they are fricken dragons after all not some zombie of a caster. Also a white wyrm shouldnt have such low fire resist. Its a dragon... a cold based dragon. It doesnt have a weakness, it has a vulnerablity to fire. So ... fix that.


Greater dragons: Reduce 15% overall. Thx.

 

[G.v.P]

I think some need more of an update than an upgrade if that makes sense

*nods* for the Ki-Rin and the Unicorn, adding +100 hp to the range shouldn't be too hard of a change to at least keep them ballpark with a Nightmare, whereas the challenge of a "Greater White Wyrm" idea is definitely more complex.

 

[Llewen]

Just thought I'd add, I like a lot of the ideas in this thread. I've used a reptalon a fair bit in pvp, and I know someone has said the "pvp talk" in this thread is ruining the thread, but for me, I play a pvp tamer, and I think pvp tamers not only belong in pvp, but add a unique and interesting element to pvp that makes pvp more fun for everyone, both for tamers and non-tamers. And pvp is my main interest UO.

From my experience with reptalons, one change that would make a huge difference would be if they employed their specials a bit more often than they do. Higher base damage and higher dex would definitely make them a more competitive pet without turning them into a clone of some other pet.

 

[SixUnder]

great original post

however, they fixed and allowed us to keep ancient wyrms as pets, well they removed mine after about 3 years.

anyhow having not done what we asked before with silver steeds, normal black horses, and other such abborations. goodluck.

I hope they do do some some pets change ups however, i would not count on it.

 

[SixUnder]

*nods* for the Ki-Rin and the Unicorn, adding +100 hp to the range shouldn't be too hard of a change to at least keep them ballpark with a Nightmare, whereas the challenge of a "Greater White Wyrm" idea is definitely more complex.

greater white wyrm should be easy imho

exact opposite of greater dragon as far as resists. and done. create spawn locations

 

[SixUnder]

*nods* for the Ki-Rin and the Unicorn, adding +100 hp to the range shouldn't be too hard of a change to at least keep them ballpark with a Nightmare, whereas the challenge of a "Greater White Wyrm" idea is definitely more complex.

btw..

nightmares sucked have for long time.
same with most all 2 and 3 slotted besides dreads

 

[Ned888]

Just a quick question here to bring me up to speed on this issue:

Are the pets we are discussing useful for a character with taming skill in the range that the pets become available (i.e. - is an alligator good for a characer with 48 taming or is a bull good for a character with 72 taming or is are they too weak)?

The discussion seems to be revolving around end game, but not low-mid range where most characters would spend their time in a game. Yes, I know that everyone has been on for years and years, but in general a game is designed for the middle range of play, not the end game.

Is there really an issue with the pets, or is it that there's an issue with everyone playing maxed out characters?

 

[pgib]

The "mid-range" issue - there was no intermediate level between the rabbit and the greater dragon - has been fixed with bouras. Now one can start training taming and when the boredom reaches the warning level (10 to 15 minutes after start) he can grab two lowland bouras and bash a lot of big things.

In fact, the boura is the greater dragon of the training tamer: there's nothing else like it.

The problem is that we have no more pets on the upper level: you can use boura for low end stuff, greater dragon for mid range creatures and then you have nothing for the high end mobs.

A frost/greater/elder white wyrm would be wonderful if they make it on par with the current scale of big monsters (that means very very buffed): a white greater dragon would just be four years late.

 

[G.v.P]

Are the pets we are discussing useful for a character with taming skill in the range that the pets become available (i.e. - is an alligator good for a characer with 48 taming or is a bull good for a character with 72 taming or is are they too weak)?

If you have SA access, and can find/make an imbuer, you kick yourself up to 76 taming right away (50+13+13). If you have an imbuer w/ 50 skill you can craft a ring and bracelet with +13 taming each.

I guess you'd have to define what mid-range is, 1/2 of 120? 1/2 of 50-120? If 60 is mid-range, then there's really nothing available at 60--within that immediate range--that is terribly useful. However, Lowland Bouras are 29.1, and they're probably better than anything you can get until maybe Kitsunes (more of the 90). Even so, for the HP and resists, Bouras are pretty powerful for mid-level tamers. I'm not sure why they were given such a low tame req., and since they can be used by anyone they don't feel particularly like a tamer exclusive, but applied with Vet skill they are fairly formidable.

There is a lack of mid-level use, I suppose; the Boura is equivalent to the Greater Dragon in comparable mid-level terms when considering an Alligator, or a Bull, yet of course, when you consider special things, like, say a Scorpion, there are mid-level options which give other functions. Two Bouras and a Scorpion could be a fun little output.

Mid-level used to be, in my opinion, Frenzied Ostards. When I was able to tame my first Frenzied Ostard, I felt like I was a tamer. People still use them, and their pack DPS is pretty amazing under the right situations. Still, the way pack bonus works--per pair--doesn't really give a five-pack the right incentive.

greater white wyrm should be easy imho

exact opposite of greater dragon as far as resists. and done. create spawn locations

GWW w/ 60 fire resist, bleed, and 5 control slots could work, just whether or not people want a GD niche clone. Anything with magery/firebreath would destroy a GWW due to fire damage, which is good in a way because in PvP, a GWW would be fairly easy to take down with just fireballs.

btw..

nightmares sucked have for long time.
same with most all 2 and 3 slotted besides dreads

Nightmare is probably the best PvM DPS at 2-slot while the Bake Kitsune is the best possible 2-slot tank and the AI seems better for PvP, but it takes forever to roll the right Kitsune. Two tank Kitsunes are pretty powerful in PvP or PvM. Dread is nice for PvP but not so great for PvM due to low Fire/Cold. Kitsune/Rune Beetle is usually my preferred 2-3 for PvM.

 

[G.v.P]

In fact, the boura is the greater dragon of the training tamer: there's nothing else like it.

ninja'd

my thoughts exactly

 

[Ned888]

Maybe the solution is to leave the animals alone and fix the skill. If everyone is running around with GD's and the like, then they must be fairly easy to tame. They should be closer to impossible to tame.... So should a lot of other things.... Either that or they should be a lot more rare so they aren't available to everyone and their brother.

As far as the mid range goes. I am speaking from a new player perspective. Max skill is still GM unless you can get a power scroll handed to you by someone, so let's say you don't go the imbueing route and just start a plain old tamer at 50 with say 50 Animal Lore as well. You can tame Gators at 48.1, so at 50 they should still give gains and be a reasonable companion to use. Are they? Are Alligators useful for a tamer as a combat pet? I know there is always something better, but if it can be tamed then it should have some sort of value, otherwise it's clogging the code.

The real issue that I see is that there are a few pinnacle pets and everything else is less desirable (not useless just lesser), so either everything has to be made desirable or the really good pets need to have more faults added to them to bring them into a reasonable range and make those other pets valid options.

What if, for instance your Greater Dragon was EXTREMELY hard to train, say, 1-3% at 120 Taming and 120 Animal Lore. Then it had twice the bonding time as a normal pet and also had a chance to break from your control and attack you. Couple this with an EXTREMELY LOW and RANDOM spawn rate and you have a solution to the problem.

I don't know, but this could go either way with me. It's a toughie....

 

[pgib]

Here's what i do not understand when tamer fellows ask for more taming and pet nerfs: what the heck are you taking your greater dragons against?

Because i swear that my almost full resist gds with more than legendary wrestling are as soft as muffins when i bring them to the battles a legendary tamer lizardman is supposed to fight.

 

[Warpig Inc]

There is no need for anything bigger then the GD. Maybe another version with range of other elemental strengths.

There shouldn't be any bosses / champ / peerless that can be soloed. After 15 minutes of being damaged by less then 3 player characters they should gain paragon uber healing traits.

For the weaker tames like old pasty WW and anything else not called a Greater Dragon. New addition should be along the lines of party pack bonus. Tamers partied together with the same pet type, their pets hit for more. A group of say 7 WW / nightmare tamers should burn through a Narvey. If 7 tamers working together as a team can't keep some WWs alive, they don't need that boss reward. Nighmares are there to do their part buffed and maybe one dies so the monster does that few seconds finger up butt till it agros again, free pounding.

 

[pgib]

I think the contrary but even if that was the case the tamer is by far the last kind of character you must use to solo stuff. And not just big creatures.

I did some test and with 120 focus / 120 mystic, RC and Hide i can kill things i can't even dare to go close with my gd and what i can do with both is just faster and safer with a mystic. And let's not talk about the comparison with the necro-warriors.

So it is a fact that the tamer is now the weakest of the pvm fighters.

Jeez, yesterday i was killing wind elementals with my gd, which takes some time, then a abc thrower came in, it was like three slaps and next, three slaps and next... i heard my gd saying: look, can't you just leave me in stables, please?

 

[Warpig Inc]

I think the contrary but even if that was the case the tamer is by far the last kind of character you must use to solo stuff. And not just big creatures.

I did some test and with 120 focus / 120 mystic, RC and Hide i can kill things i can't even dare to go close with my gd and what i can do with both is just faster and safer with a mystic. And let's not talk about the comparison with the necro-warriors.

So it is a fact that the tamer is now the weakest of the pvm fighters.

Jeez, yesterday i was killing wind elementals with my gd, which takes some time, then a abc thrower came in, it was like three slaps and next, three slaps and next... i heard my gd saying: look, can't you just leave me in stables, please?

If your a disco/tamer get you 5 one slotters. Only three same packs worth taming from day one. As an example. 5 frenzy on discorded new bloods vs GD tamer. The frenzy kill so fast nearly can keep the GD tamer from getting looting rights. Hell it is near half dead by time the GD gets to it. And if it wasn't for the discord the GD wouldn't do enough.

 

[pgib]

In my experience Disco-Tamer is great for farming but it is not good for heavy fights. Things like the dark father or rikktor still deal too much damage when discorded to be killed without heavy healing and that requires focus, meditation, mana regeneration, veterinary, magery, mysticism and a lot of RL luck .

I tried to make a disco-healing-tamer but i simply had not enough skill points to put bard skills along the much needed healing abilities.

Btw i tried a pack of hell hounds in shame with disco and they are great (but the best is sending the pack against a discorded Swoop: it goes down faster than Miasma).