Methinks that if you have an inactive, red character - -

[A Thought Elemental]

I have an older character that I was thinking that maybe, maybe, I'd like to use again. Maybe. Not sure yet.

I'm not a genuine PK and never have been. But, it remains that this character is what you call "perma-red". I deliberately took him red for guild spawning operations - - it is necessary for certain functions if a guild is not faction. This was all before faction gear existed and that push for spawning guilds to be in factions went through.

So. Methinks that if you have a character.

and his most recently-committed 'murder' becomes aged to one year (happened one year ago) and the character is still in "murderer" status (red)...

that character should have access to an option to have all the murders dropped off of it (thereby become blue again) (forged pardons aren't feasible for so-called perma-reds).

(I do not know if the system currently knows the date/time of the most recent murder a red has committed, though).

If you have a red and he hasn't done a murder for a whole year, one of 2 things is happening. Either you're not using the character at all (most likely) or, you are not using it as a red and doing the things which got the character red in the first place (unlikely that anyone would run around with a red and do this, but possible).

In the context of the way uo works today, if someone thinks that red characters are simply the result of evil playerkilling acts and the perma-red status is a means to punish the player: that's an ancient way of thinking and it no longer applies to this thing. Best to let that idea go. The blue that runs up to you in Fel is nearly as likely to kill you as the red, kay....

So yeah, ppl can hate on my suggestion all they like but, I have a red I'm not using for like, ANYTHING, and it's not like I actually PK in the first place. If I could take him back blue, I'd think about maybe using it again.

And no I'm not rerolling him as a blue and eating new scrolls and stoning over all the skills because that's just a goofy workaround for a situation that isn't making sense in the first place, kthx. No harm in 'fixing' the actual character since it hasn't been used for jack-anything for so long.

 

[MikevonHammer]

With the advent of trammel, is there really any need to have a red character?
After all, everyone should know the risk of felluca, and understand they could get Pked.
I don't think the red is needed anymore, though I've never had a red toon.
What happens in felluca stays in felluca.. to borrow a line.

Maybe put a switch on the toon. When the toon goes through a moongate to felluca the switch checks for murder counts. If high enough or flagged perma-red a pop up alerts the player and he gets a few seconds to clear the gate.
So in felluca he is red, but in tram, he is blue.

Could also make so murder counts only burn off while in felluca...
But then again, are murder counts really needed any more?

 

[pgib]

I don't really like the idea of having more bad beings in trammel. I mean, we already have a good measure of blue boss-stealers, mob-lurer, campers, exploiters and generally speaking very unpleasant virtual beings to deal with, adding even the Felons (felucca inhabitant) troops will drop the bar even more.

But i'm in for replicating all the trammel mobs and drops in felucca to ease the well deserved loneliness of reds.

[edit: i didn't read the last line]

 

[Larisa]

I love this idea for one reason:

The first character I ever created on this game is..of course..Larisa.

She's been with me since day one and I refuse to delete her for that reason.

Now...when I joined BTH, it was an alliance requirement that you had to have a red character. Since Larisa was my best character at the time, she was the one that went red.

NOW....even though she only has 168 murder counts, that's still WAY too many for me to burn off and too expensive to get the pardons for.

I would love to have the option..call it time off for good behavior! But I would LOVE to be able to play her again as a *trammie* lol.

 

[A Thought Elemental]

we already have a good measure of blue boss-stealers, mob-lurer, campers, exploiters and generally speaking very unpleasant virtual beings to deal with, adding even the Felons (felucca inhabitant) troops will drop the bar even more.

Ur kinda missing something btw.

It's not like there's this group of lame, PKing people in Fel who only play reds. The lame PK *players* are the harrassing, blue boss-stealers, mob-lurer types you come upon in Tram. The red characters are just... red characters, some of them belonging to the immature pricks and some not.

 

[aarons6]

I don't really like the idea of having more bad beings in trammel. I mean, we already have a good measure of blue boss-stealers, mob-lurer, campers, exploiters and generally speaking very unpleasant virtual beings to deal with, adding even the Felons (felucca inhabitant) troops will drop the bar even more.

But i'm in for replicating all the trammel mobs and drops in felucca to ease the well deserved loneliness of reds.

[edit: i didn't read the last line]

um, what makes you so sure those "bad beings" are on another char thats not red?

i think that the murder hours should also decay when offline.
its very hard to pvp without getting them and 40 hours is a LONG time.

 

[A Thought Elemental]

With the advent of trammel, is there really any need to have a red character?
After all, everyone should know the risk of felluca, and understand they could get Pked.
I don't think the red is needed anymore, though I've never had a red toon.
What happens in felluca stays in felluca.. to borrow a line.

This is IMO a valid point... BUT .. some people prefer their characters being red and would be angry to find their reds forceably set to blue (or find that they are unable to make a red). Think of it as like, a legacy preference sort of thing.

 

[A Thought Elemental]

um, what makes you so sure those "bad beings" are on another char thats not red?

Because that's how it works! I've been in several fel spawning/raiding guilds and have like 2 reds out of the effort (bah). I got to see my guildies in action in plenty of situations. All the genuinely nasty, inconsiderate pricks have a good-size pack of blues in the stable and are happy to use those blues to grief people when it suits them. Some of the people with reds are plenty nice people... at least while on their blues in Tram. I think some of them presume that if you are a blue in Fel, you are looking for or otherwise presenting yourself for a fight (or, should be expecting one), so if they are on a red and encounter you .. that's what you get.

 

[Viper09]

Ur kinda missing something btw.

It's not like there's this group of lame, PKing people in Fel who only play reds. The lame PK *players* are the harrassing, blue boss-stealers, mob-lurer types you come upon in Tram. The red characters are just... red characters, some of them belonging to the immature pricks and some not.

While I agree with what you seem to be saying, that red is no longer needed, the suggestion that these lame players in tram must be the PKs just on blue character is ridiculous. Yes the pkers can create blues and yes some do go out to grief in tram but just as many non-fel players are equally guilty of being lame griefers. Just as there are plenty of pks who do not and would not engage in griefing.

Both baskets have bad eggs and no one basket has more than the other. It's just easier for people to blame them on the pvpers they all love to hate.

http://vboards.stratics.com/uhall/252918-change-murder-status-needed.html

 

[Hellstorm]

A soulstone and a few scrolls will fix a red in a jiffy. You can keep the name, and even make them look the same. Jeeze... why complicate things?

 

[aarons6]

A soulstone and a few scrolls will fix a red in a jiffy. You can keep the name, and even make them look the same. Jeeze... why complicate things?

so what once a month you're supposed to make a new guy?

 

[A Thought Elemental]

While I agree with what you seem to be saying, that red is no longer needed, the suggestion that these lame players in tram must be the PKs just on blue character is ridiculous.

The point I meant to make was in response to someone's post where they seemed to think that letting "reds" only be red while in Fel would introduce a new set of nasty people into Tram (not my idea btw and I don't like it due to how it would make luring/PKing of blues more convenient). I'm saying that this is not the case because the players who happen to have reds and are nasty griefers are already in Tram. On their blues. I know this from experience.

The players I know who are the absolute worst on the scamming, griefing, etc. do in fact have reds. But understand that reds are nothing more than a tool and it makes sense for those players to have them. I'm saying that you can't judge a ton about the player if he simply has a red, from that fact alone.

In particular if a guild is doing fel spawn-related activity, and is not faction, and is utilizing the zone's rules/tactics in a way that makes sense, you *must* use reds for certain things. A blue cannot lay fields that reliably catch blues. And no matter what, you end up with reds, because you end up doing PVP with blues (the zone seems to be aligned for use this way). Someone needs to have the ability to guard against and fight against characters of all colors who come to take "your" spawn. It's just how the fel champ spawns work.

The system is a tad outdated imo, although, the introduction of forged pardons was a targeted compensation for some of the problems, and they do help.

 

[A Thought Elemental]

A soulstone and a few scrolls will fix a red in a jiffy. You can keep the name, and even make them look the same. Jeeze... why complicate things?

What you're describing is by far the more complicated thing from the player perspective.

Like I was saying - not interested in soulstoning/rescrolling/deleting-red and essentially rebuilding a character for a reason/shortfall such as this.

The solution of recreating a character assumes that everyone is either spawning to get scrolls or has the gold to drop on 120 mageries and evals like it's nothing. In my own case it's not a mage so no big-dollar scrolls like that are needed but yeah. It's not even about that, it's about what makes sense.

Even in a strictly game-contextual sense. The equivalent of several entire ages have passed for some of our reds and, somehow, the game world continues to recognize these characters as eternal murderers. No possibility of being forgotten about, for eternity. uhh huhhhhhh i'd buy that fer a dollar.

 

[Lady Storm]

I have 2 retired reds.... retired not cause they dont have the umph to do what they were created for ....but the fact I do not see being a red as a good thing.... So they languish in a house never to see the light of day unless i want to collect a gift. A sad ending to their illustrious carrers but as Larisa pointed out ill never get that many pardons to have them see Trammel in my lifetime. Their skills would be better on a blue.... but i cant see me poofing them off

 

[longshanks]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

anyways.

with the advent of arenas on the horizon you may have a forum to use
your red in a controlled enjoyable setting.

 

[Podolak]

I will openly admit I am an ebil red pk "felon" "bad being" etc, etc, etc. I am fine with my characters being "red" and am not looking for a free pass to blueness. However, more often than not those evil reds are more respectful than blues. I have died in fights and been rezzed by the same reds who killed me far more often than a blue ever has. Reds often loot just a few supplies they need from my corpse where blues almost always dry loot. (perhaps the blues didn't come supplied so had more room in their backpack). But to stereotype a play style as griefers seems a bit ridiculous.

Additionally, though I chose freely every murder count I have taken, I know many reds who are simply that color because they chose to defend their friends. When we are defending a spawn or otherwise engaged in a fight and several bluebies attack a red guild mate we do not just sit their and watch our friend fall. We heal them or do damage to the attacker.

And here is a little tid bit to add to the mix. Not every red technically killed someone to earn that murder count. There are blues who go to spawns, get attacked (or flag in a field or whatever) and then go off screen to kill themselves so they can give counts. Who is evil here again?

 

[pgib]

The felony is not in being red (though it is a pretty bad thing to kill other virtual people, you know) but in the role reds played to the fall of felucca.

Felucca fell because reds mass-murdered anyone on sight to the point that they had to create a new facet where law abiding was enforced to make the game itself survive. Do not forget this: so many people were leaving the game because of reds that they HAD TO create Trammel (to continue earning money of course, not because they felt anything about the chaos-order balance, as the endless stream of Felucca baits testifies).

It hurts me (virtually of course) whenever i have to enter Felucca - and i do that just when someone needs directions to some place - because i was born there, I defended Trinsic from the undeads' invasion when the only reward was the safety of the town itself because it was my town, and all those things are but lost memories, because of reds.

And now you want to come to Trammel to start it over again? As we Lizardmen say, if you dry the swamp you'll have to live in a desert.

 

[Prince Caspian]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

anyways.

with the advent of arenas on the horizon you may have a forum to use
your red in a controlled enjoyable setting.

Amen to this.

The facet split happened for one major reason: casual players were sick of having PvP forced on them by bullies who couldn't possibly lose the fight.

 

[zylo]

Devs... Please, please hear me!

Allow players with Red Characters to travel to Tram/Malas/etc...

It would be great to just be able to take my main char to tram and play the game with that ruleset and when I travel back to fel, have my players red status on that facet...

My main chars in this game are all red and I have been missing out on tons of game content for years using these chars....

If you can't attack anyone in these facets, why not just let us use all our characters there...

 

[KingHen]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

/Signage

besides there are ways to tick off time without too much difficulty... if your toon is perma red, it is for a reason..........

less than 200 counts is easily fixable (7,840 hours)
think long term here... if you started working on these characters awhile ago, they would've been blue already... no time like the present.

This of course is for those who want to become blue again, not have their cake and eat it to (red on fel, blue on tram)

 

[Mirt]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

anyways.

with the advent of arenas on the horizon you may have a forum to use
your red in a controlled enjoyable setting.

I agree completely actions have consequences. Its sad that there is no benefit to being a red. But you should have thought of that when you killed blues back in the day. There are ways to go blue but those require time and money. That being said you knew there were consequences when you did it. There is no point now in saying but I want a do over because the consequences are to harsh.

 

[aarons6]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

anyways.

with the advent of arenas on the horizon you may have a forum to use
your red in a controlled enjoyable setting.

so my bed was pvping?

cause just by pvping, and yew gate fighting.. witch is consensual by the way i get around 12 to 15 murder counts a day..

because with this stupid system, if you kill someone during consensual pvp they still can give you murder counts.

a lot of the time even if THEY attacked you first.. cause there are bugs out there and everyone knows them..

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

Total lifelong Trammie here, and I'd like to just say, there are some disgusting carebears in here.

I know it made you cry when someone PK'd you and took your ore back during the Clinton Administration, but this infantile desire to "punish" reds in 2011 is beyond pathetic.

The whole murder count system should be scrapped. There is no viable non-PVP community in Fel for it to "protect" and hasn't been in a decade.

 

[DeadRed]

My main is red...and for various times over the years I did not play. I even thought maybe go blue(would take about 5 years of being online ). But should we have the ability to just go blue NO...100% no. We did the crime, and should follow the rules even if we are not online alot.

Being red took some thought for me personally. I was in a pk guild for a while before that final time I said oh well.

If you want a blue delete it and start over.

 

[Tazar]

A soulstone and a few scrolls will fix a red in a jiffy. You can keep the name, and even make them look the same. Jeeze... why complicate things?

What you're describing is by far the more complicated thing from the player perspective.

Like I was saying - not interested in soulstoning/rescrolling/deleting-red and essentially rebuilding a character for a reason/shortfall such as this.

The solution of recreating a character assumes that everyone is either spawning to get scrolls or has the gold to drop on 120 mageries and evals like it's nothing. In my own case it's not a mage so no big-dollar scrolls like that are needed but yeah. It's not even about that, it's about what makes sense.

Even in a strictly game-contextual sense. The equivalent of several entire ages have passed for some of our reds and, somehow, the game world continues to recognize these characters as eternal murderers. No possibility of being forgotten about, for eternity. uhh huhhhhhh i'd buy that fer a dollar.

This might also make a personal bless deed worthless.

However, I agree with many others here. There should be a cost to the murdering ways...

 

[Viper09]

As I had mentioned in my other thread (link posted here) the issue I have seen is that now days in UO murder counts are rarely if ever obtained by killing innocents. Most PKs get their counts in consensual PvP with other PvPers who refuse to flag to fight (be it factions, guild war, etc). Being red now is really just a status symbol showing skill in PvP as opposed to a red in the past being seen as a murder since the only real way to go red now is to "pk" blue PvPers. Sure you could try to find an innocent person in fel but it would probably take you months just to get 5 counts doing that.

In a nutshell, being a murderer now is completely different than it was years ago. All it really is now is a PvP status symbol.

 

[A Thought Elemental]

you made your bed.... now lay in it.

This is wrong in more ways than I want to type out (especially since the things which have already been said should cover it).

It addresses none of the points I and some of the others here have brought up and is just a blanket condemnation, as though some evil or crimes had been commited by PVPing in the PVP-allocated zone of this game (gasp).

Seconding and thirding this comment is dumbing this thread down a notch.

 

[Mirt]

Actually there are in game consequences for in game actions. You don't like being red either forged pardon it off or use soul stones to make a new character. You want to kill and say because someone in fel that they are consenting to pvp... well the logical foibles that you have to follow to get there are staggering. Because you want to pvp doesn't mean that fel is pvp only. It is simply the zone that allows pvp. Now if you want to disable counts for the arenas I am all for it that is truly consensual pvp. As is factions and guild war. Anything is defined by murder (unless they flag bugs should be fixed) and should have some consequences. If you want to cry about it that’s fine. Just don't expect sympathy. That was the consensus the last time this was brought up too. Additionally with the enhanced gear that should soon be dropping in Fel Shame now is actually the time to increase the murder penalties. Maybe bring back permanent stat loss or bank box forfeiture or bounties?

 

[A Thought Elemental]

Actually there are in game consequences for in game actions. You don't like being red either forged pardon it off or use soul stones to make a new character. You want to kill and say because someone in fel that they are consenting to pvp... well the logical foibles that you have to follow to get there are staggering. Because you want to pvp doesn't mean that fel is pvp only. It is simply the zone that allows pvp. Now if you want to disable counts for the arenas I am all for it that is truly consensual pvp. As is factions and guild war. Anything is defined by murder (unless they flag bugs should be fixed) and should have some consequences. If you want to cry about it that’s fine. Just don't expect sympathy. That was the consensus the last time this was brought up too. Additionally with the enhanced gear that should soon be dropping in Fel Shame now is actually the time to increase the murder penalties. Maybe bring back permanent stat loss or bank box forfeiture or bounties?

This is not a perspective that reflects the modern times. This is more applicable to the times long past when there was no PVE/PVM-only zone (Trammel ruleset, obviously).

The sense that the game should assign genuine punishment to the player for the act of PVPing within the PVP zone is complete nonsense, I'm sorry.

and PS: don't talk down to me about 'crying' and 'expecting sympathy' kthx.

 

[Mirt]

Actually just because you want it to be consensual pvp doesn't mean it is. What I am saying is that just because there is trammel doesn't mean that fel has no rules. It does. You can cry about them, but they are there. Fel is the way it is not because there is trammel but because there is no consequence to PKing. So if the minor inconvenience is too much for you I offered you numerous ways to correct that. I go into fel and I don't want to be attacked. You can attack me but that does not make it consensual. Its sort of like saying a women went into my house she is consenting to sex. It could happen but its not like she wants it.

 

[Viper09]

Mirt, when we are talking about consensual PvP we MEAN consensual PvP. PvPers have BOTH red and blue and engage in PvP with BOTH. Meaning getting counts in true consensual PvP happens ALL the time. We are, or at least I am not talking about the issue of people going to fel without wanting to engage in PvP encountering others at all. This is separate from what at least I am talking about.

At least on Sonoma when I run around I know who are the PvPers and who are not. Whenever there are big fights going on I always see blues taking part and as a result, handing out counts in this event. It is not at all uncommon to go red engaging in actual consensual PvP.

 

[Mirt]

True but there are also plenty of us that want to run a spawn and get raided. I know there is a risk and I accept that risk. But I also have the reward of handing out counts. If its a friend I may not, but I can. I also have been given counts defending myself. That being said I don't get upset about it. I simple use a forged pardon. For those that want to gate fight well factions factions factions. For those that want to kill and be killed well. Your a murder in game. If someone can take you down the game actually rewards them with justice. I know it sucks but its manageable. I suspect with all the increase in shame its more important now then ever. Now if your willing to have the double resources in trammel and Scroll champ spawns and harrowers in trammel as well as shame having the same drop rates... well then I agree that there would be no reason at all for the system (for the record all of that would probably be a terrible idea). But if we want to keep fel fel then there are always going to have to be some disadvantages to killing other players.

 

[Shiznit Bo'Bourbon]

A Felucca champ spawn is a PVP zone. You may as well log into that new dueling arena and cry about your opponent PKing you.

 

[Mirt]

No actually it is not a pvp zone. It allows non consensual pvp. But it does not mean you consent. Test the arenas see how you have to ask for someone to enter the arena. That is what people call consent. You may want it to imply consent but if you see what I have said above. So you want to kill folks there. You can because its fel. But they can also give you a count, because you killed them.

 

[Emma Silvermane]

sad thing is with pvp .. anymore its not really consensual .. but there again .. all i ever see is house hiders .. gate hiders and **** talkers for those who dont wanna consent to this form of play style .. its amusing to me just to sit and watch em **** talk in chat about some one house hiding. people go red for a reason wether they want to admit it or not they do .. they make chars to go red for a reason... ive also been counted defending myself. but they do have so many ways around being red that its kinda moot dont you think .. if uve got 700+ counts .. means you either like what you do .. or got them defending against it.. thing is .. uve prob got the funds to delete and restart .. everythings come down so much in cost scroll wise .. its really no issue or just keep the red make a blue exactly the same with imbuing you can make identical suits and have one of each blue and red and not feel trapt by either .. just my 2 cents.